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Re: Fascinating study on Cluster B pds RE psychopathy

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Wow, those are good points! Thing is, with my bpd/npd nada I think her

motivations have do to with BOTH those reasons.

I think my nada will sometimes behave abusively due to defensive motives, which

may or may not be under her conscious control (more in the nature of unplanned &

reactive to a trigger = emotional dysregulation) but I have also experienced

her being abusive to me in a very calculated and malicious way, which seems to

come from feelings of entitlement/ownership/revenge. Those abusive behaviors

are *planned*. (i.e., psychopathic?)

The German study I referenced in my original post is just another study in

probably what will be decades of continued studies pursuing different theories

RE what the heck is going on inside the brains and minds of those with

personality disorder, and why, and how these disorders come about, and how they

can be more effectively treated (or prevented, or cured!)

I'm on the lookout for any/all studies concerning Cluster B disorders and

psychopathy and have turned up some I haven't posted about yet.

One of these that I also find fascinating is RE looking into whether the

behaviors of borderline pd in particular could be due to unknown, untreated

traumatic brain injury. In this study, they're comparing one group of bpd

individuals with no known history of traumatic brain injury with another group

of bpd individuals who have a medical record of at least one traumatic brain

injury. Fascinating stuff.

-Annie

>

> I'm still somewhat on the fence about lumping sociopaths and ClusterB's

together...more on that later, but Girlscout here's my two cents on your

question:

>

> - for cluster b's (not sociopaths) they attack those closest to them because

those people are the greatest threat to their non-existent since of self. It is

those close to them that can trigger the crazy inside of them *because* they

matter. A stranger's actions has much less impact on the PD'd person's

self-esteem or core which is so very fragile.

>

> - for sociopaths they attack those around them because they are available,

they are there, they have the most information on them to use to manipulate them

with. And of course the more power and proximity they've got with someone the

more their sociopathic side will " come out to play " .

>

> While I do see some sociopathic traits in my nada who might also have NPD as

well, most of her actions her self-protective. Ultimately she's trying to

shore up an incredible fragile sense of self which feels pain for irrational

reasons from normal human interactions. Her actions of defense become attack

on the outside. I have personally known a couple of sociopaths and their

actions come from a different place. They aren't acting to protect a fragile

core - they are acting for their own pleasure. They *enjoy* manipulating people

like puppets on a string, it is a matter of skill and fun to them.

>

> Do I believe some Cluster B's have sociopathic tendencies as

well...absolutely. But I think we have to determine what the core motivation

is for their manipulation and their lying - is it ultimately for their own

defense (from their perspective) or for power and amusement? To me that's

that's the difference between the BPD and sociopath.

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Wow, those are good points! Thing is, with my bpd/npd nada I think her

motivations have do to with BOTH those reasons.

I think my nada will sometimes behave abusively due to defensive motives, which

may or may not be under her conscious control (more in the nature of unplanned &

reactive to a trigger = emotional dysregulation) but I have also experienced

her being abusive to me in a very calculated and malicious way, which seems to

come from feelings of entitlement/ownership/revenge. Those abusive behaviors

are *planned*. (i.e., psychopathic?)

The German study I referenced in my original post is just another study in

probably what will be decades of continued studies pursuing different theories

RE what the heck is going on inside the brains and minds of those with

personality disorder, and why, and how these disorders come about, and how they

can be more effectively treated (or prevented, or cured!)

I'm on the lookout for any/all studies concerning Cluster B disorders and

psychopathy and have turned up some I haven't posted about yet.

One of these that I also find fascinating is RE looking into whether the

behaviors of borderline pd in particular could be due to unknown, untreated

traumatic brain injury. In this study, they're comparing one group of bpd

individuals with no known history of traumatic brain injury with another group

of bpd individuals who have a medical record of at least one traumatic brain

injury. Fascinating stuff.

-Annie

>

> I'm still somewhat on the fence about lumping sociopaths and ClusterB's

together...more on that later, but Girlscout here's my two cents on your

question:

>

> - for cluster b's (not sociopaths) they attack those closest to them because

those people are the greatest threat to their non-existent since of self. It is

those close to them that can trigger the crazy inside of them *because* they

matter. A stranger's actions has much less impact on the PD'd person's

self-esteem or core which is so very fragile.

>

> - for sociopaths they attack those around them because they are available,

they are there, they have the most information on them to use to manipulate them

with. And of course the more power and proximity they've got with someone the

more their sociopathic side will " come out to play " .

>

> While I do see some sociopathic traits in my nada who might also have NPD as

well, most of her actions her self-protective. Ultimately she's trying to

shore up an incredible fragile sense of self which feels pain for irrational

reasons from normal human interactions. Her actions of defense become attack

on the outside. I have personally known a couple of sociopaths and their

actions come from a different place. They aren't acting to protect a fragile

core - they are acting for their own pleasure. They *enjoy* manipulating people

like puppets on a string, it is a matter of skill and fun to them.

>

> Do I believe some Cluster B's have sociopathic tendencies as

well...absolutely. But I think we have to determine what the core motivation

is for their manipulation and their lying - is it ultimately for their own

defense (from their perspective) or for power and amusement? To me that's

that's the difference between the BPD and sociopath.

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Yeah what Annie said.

It sounds like some folks on this group have nadas - often the waifs and

hermits- who are less aggressive and destructive.

My nada a queen/witch is probably a sociopath. She did it for the pure joy

of hurting others.

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 3:18 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Wow, those are good points! Thing is, with my bpd/npd nada I think her

> motivations have do to with BOTH those reasons.

>

> I think my nada will sometimes behave abusively due to defensive motives,

> which may or may not be under her conscious control (more in the nature of

> unplanned & reactive to a trigger = emotional dysregulation) but I have also

> experienced her being abusive to me in a very calculated and malicious way,

> which seems to come from feelings of entitlement/ownership/revenge. Those

> abusive behaviors are *planned*. (i.e., psychopathic?)

>

> The German study I referenced in my original post is just another study in

> probably what will be decades of continued studies pursuing different

> theories RE what the heck is going on inside the brains and minds of those

> with personality disorder, and why, and how these disorders come about, and

> how they can be more effectively treated (or prevented, or cured!)

>

> I'm on the lookout for any/all studies concerning Cluster B disorders and

> psychopathy and have turned up some I haven't posted about yet.

>

> One of these that I also find fascinating is RE looking into whether the

> behaviors of borderline pd in particular could be due to unknown, untreated

> traumatic brain injury. In this study, they're comparing one group of bpd

> individuals with no known history of traumatic brain injury with another

> group of bpd individuals who have a medical record of at least one traumatic

> brain injury. Fascinating stuff.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > I'm still somewhat on the fence about lumping sociopaths and ClusterB's

> together...more on that later, but Girlscout here's my two cents on your

> question:

> >

> > - for cluster b's (not sociopaths) they attack those closest to them

> because those people are the greatest threat to their non-existent since of

> self. It is those close to them that can trigger the crazy inside of them

> *because* they matter. A stranger's actions has much less impact on the PD'd

> person's self-esteem or core which is so very fragile.

> >

> > - for sociopaths they attack those around them because they are

> available, they are there, they have the most information on them to use to

> manipulate them with. And of course the more power and proximity they've got

> with someone the more their sociopathic side will " come out to play " .

> >

> > While I do see some sociopathic traits in my nada who might also have NPD

> as well, most of her actions her self-protective. Ultimately she's trying to

> shore up an incredible fragile sense of self which feels pain for irrational

> reasons from normal human interactions. Her actions of defense become attack

> on the outside. I have personally known a couple of sociopaths and their

> actions come from a different place. They aren't acting to protect a fragile

> core - they are acting for their own pleasure. They *enjoy* manipulating

> people like puppets on a string, it is a matter of skill and fun to them.

> >

> > Do I believe some Cluster B's have sociopathic tendencies as

> well...absolutely. But I think we have to determine what the core motivation

> is for their manipulation and their lying - is it ultimately for their own

> defense (from their perspective) or for power and amusement? To me that's

> that's the difference between the BPD and sociopath.

> >

> >

>

>

>

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Guest guest

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Posted
Posted

Yeah what Annie said.

It sounds like some folks on this group have nadas - often the waifs and

hermits- who are less aggressive and destructive.

My nada a queen/witch is probably a sociopath. She did it for the pure joy

of hurting others.

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 3:18 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Wow, those are good points! Thing is, with my bpd/npd nada I think her

> motivations have do to with BOTH those reasons.

>

> I think my nada will sometimes behave abusively due to defensive motives,

> which may or may not be under her conscious control (more in the nature of

> unplanned & reactive to a trigger = emotional dysregulation) but I have also

> experienced her being abusive to me in a very calculated and malicious way,

> which seems to come from feelings of entitlement/ownership/revenge. Those

> abusive behaviors are *planned*. (i.e., psychopathic?)

>

> The German study I referenced in my original post is just another study in

> probably what will be decades of continued studies pursuing different

> theories RE what the heck is going on inside the brains and minds of those

> with personality disorder, and why, and how these disorders come about, and

> how they can be more effectively treated (or prevented, or cured!)

>

> I'm on the lookout for any/all studies concerning Cluster B disorders and

> psychopathy and have turned up some I haven't posted about yet.

>

> One of these that I also find fascinating is RE looking into whether the

> behaviors of borderline pd in particular could be due to unknown, untreated

> traumatic brain injury. In this study, they're comparing one group of bpd

> individuals with no known history of traumatic brain injury with another

> group of bpd individuals who have a medical record of at least one traumatic

> brain injury. Fascinating stuff.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > I'm still somewhat on the fence about lumping sociopaths and ClusterB's

> together...more on that later, but Girlscout here's my two cents on your

> question:

> >

> > - for cluster b's (not sociopaths) they attack those closest to them

> because those people are the greatest threat to their non-existent since of

> self. It is those close to them that can trigger the crazy inside of them

> *because* they matter. A stranger's actions has much less impact on the PD'd

> person's self-esteem or core which is so very fragile.

> >

> > - for sociopaths they attack those around them because they are

> available, they are there, they have the most information on them to use to

> manipulate them with. And of course the more power and proximity they've got

> with someone the more their sociopathic side will " come out to play " .

> >

> > While I do see some sociopathic traits in my nada who might also have NPD

> as well, most of her actions her self-protective. Ultimately she's trying to

> shore up an incredible fragile sense of self which feels pain for irrational

> reasons from normal human interactions. Her actions of defense become attack

> on the outside. I have personally known a couple of sociopaths and their

> actions come from a different place. They aren't acting to protect a fragile

> core - they are acting for their own pleasure. They *enjoy* manipulating

> people like puppets on a string, it is a matter of skill and fun to them.

> >

> > Do I believe some Cluster B's have sociopathic tendencies as

> well...absolutely. But I think we have to determine what the core motivation

> is for their manipulation and their lying - is it ultimately for their own

> defense (from their perspective) or for power and amusement? To me that's

> that's the difference between the BPD and sociopath.

> >

> >

>

>

>

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Guest guest

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Posted
Posted

Yeah what Annie said.

It sounds like some folks on this group have nadas - often the waifs and

hermits- who are less aggressive and destructive.

My nada a queen/witch is probably a sociopath. She did it for the pure joy

of hurting others.

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 3:18 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Wow, those are good points! Thing is, with my bpd/npd nada I think her

> motivations have do to with BOTH those reasons.

>

> I think my nada will sometimes behave abusively due to defensive motives,

> which may or may not be under her conscious control (more in the nature of

> unplanned & reactive to a trigger = emotional dysregulation) but I have also

> experienced her being abusive to me in a very calculated and malicious way,

> which seems to come from feelings of entitlement/ownership/revenge. Those

> abusive behaviors are *planned*. (i.e., psychopathic?)

>

> The German study I referenced in my original post is just another study in

> probably what will be decades of continued studies pursuing different

> theories RE what the heck is going on inside the brains and minds of those

> with personality disorder, and why, and how these disorders come about, and

> how they can be more effectively treated (or prevented, or cured!)

>

> I'm on the lookout for any/all studies concerning Cluster B disorders and

> psychopathy and have turned up some I haven't posted about yet.

>

> One of these that I also find fascinating is RE looking into whether the

> behaviors of borderline pd in particular could be due to unknown, untreated

> traumatic brain injury. In this study, they're comparing one group of bpd

> individuals with no known history of traumatic brain injury with another

> group of bpd individuals who have a medical record of at least one traumatic

> brain injury. Fascinating stuff.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > I'm still somewhat on the fence about lumping sociopaths and ClusterB's

> together...more on that later, but Girlscout here's my two cents on your

> question:

> >

> > - for cluster b's (not sociopaths) they attack those closest to them

> because those people are the greatest threat to their non-existent since of

> self. It is those close to them that can trigger the crazy inside of them

> *because* they matter. A stranger's actions has much less impact on the PD'd

> person's self-esteem or core which is so very fragile.

> >

> > - for sociopaths they attack those around them because they are

> available, they are there, they have the most information on them to use to

> manipulate them with. And of course the more power and proximity they've got

> with someone the more their sociopathic side will " come out to play " .

> >

> > While I do see some sociopathic traits in my nada who might also have NPD

> as well, most of her actions her self-protective. Ultimately she's trying to

> shore up an incredible fragile sense of self which feels pain for irrational

> reasons from normal human interactions. Her actions of defense become attack

> on the outside. I have personally known a couple of sociopaths and their

> actions come from a different place. They aren't acting to protect a fragile

> core - they are acting for their own pleasure. They *enjoy* manipulating

> people like puppets on a string, it is a matter of skill and fun to them.

> >

> > Do I believe some Cluster B's have sociopathic tendencies as

> well...absolutely. But I think we have to determine what the core motivation

> is for their manipulation and their lying - is it ultimately for their own

> defense (from their perspective) or for power and amusement? To me that's

> that's the difference between the BPD and sociopath.

> >

> >

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Annie, I'd sure be interested in that brain injury study too. Our interests

are similar because my father is on the sociopath side with my nada on the BPD

side. I can't imagine how terrifying it must have been for you to have a mother

with BPD and sociopathic behavior. It's a wonder that you and your sister are

willing to have anything to do with her at all. I was once involved in a love

relationship with a sociopath (he was so attractive, like dear old dad I guess)

and in hindsight it makes my skin crawl to think that I was ever involved with

him. The thought of someone like that having the power of a mother over a

child just chills my blood. I've often struggled with anger over the years

toward my father for leaving me to be raised alone by my crazy mother - but

truth is if he'd stuck around I wouldn't have been better off, maybe a lot worse

off. There have been points in my life when I've imagined I've broken free and

overcome the horrible legacy of it all but somehow that never really lasts.

Stealing Doug's line here...may we all heal!

>

> Wow, those are good points! Thing is, with my bpd/npd nada I think her

motivations have do to with BOTH those reasons.

>

> I think my nada will sometimes behave abusively due to defensive motives,

which may or may not be under her conscious control (more in the nature of

unplanned & reactive to a trigger = emotional dysregulation) but I have also

experienced her being abusive to me in a very calculated and malicious way,

which seems to come from feelings of entitlement/ownership/revenge. Those

abusive behaviors are *planned*. (i.e., psychopathic?)

>

> The German study I referenced in my original post is just another study in

probably what will be decades of continued studies pursuing different theories

RE what the heck is going on inside the brains and minds of those with

personality disorder, and why, and how these disorders come about, and how they

can be more effectively treated (or prevented, or cured!)

>

> I'm on the lookout for any/all studies concerning Cluster B disorders and

psychopathy and have turned up some I haven't posted about yet.

>

> One of these that I also find fascinating is RE looking into whether the

behaviors of borderline pd in particular could be due to unknown, untreated

traumatic brain injury. In this study, they're comparing one group of bpd

individuals with no known history of traumatic brain injury with another group

of bpd individuals who have a medical record of at least one traumatic brain

injury. Fascinating stuff.

>

> -Annie

>

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Posted
Posted

Annie, I'd sure be interested in that brain injury study too. Our interests

are similar because my father is on the sociopath side with my nada on the BPD

side. I can't imagine how terrifying it must have been for you to have a mother

with BPD and sociopathic behavior. It's a wonder that you and your sister are

willing to have anything to do with her at all. I was once involved in a love

relationship with a sociopath (he was so attractive, like dear old dad I guess)

and in hindsight it makes my skin crawl to think that I was ever involved with

him. The thought of someone like that having the power of a mother over a

child just chills my blood. I've often struggled with anger over the years

toward my father for leaving me to be raised alone by my crazy mother - but

truth is if he'd stuck around I wouldn't have been better off, maybe a lot worse

off. There have been points in my life when I've imagined I've broken free and

overcome the horrible legacy of it all but somehow that never really lasts.

Stealing Doug's line here...may we all heal!

>

> Wow, those are good points! Thing is, with my bpd/npd nada I think her

motivations have do to with BOTH those reasons.

>

> I think my nada will sometimes behave abusively due to defensive motives,

which may or may not be under her conscious control (more in the nature of

unplanned & reactive to a trigger = emotional dysregulation) but I have also

experienced her being abusive to me in a very calculated and malicious way,

which seems to come from feelings of entitlement/ownership/revenge. Those

abusive behaviors are *planned*. (i.e., psychopathic?)

>

> The German study I referenced in my original post is just another study in

probably what will be decades of continued studies pursuing different theories

RE what the heck is going on inside the brains and minds of those with

personality disorder, and why, and how these disorders come about, and how they

can be more effectively treated (or prevented, or cured!)

>

> I'm on the lookout for any/all studies concerning Cluster B disorders and

psychopathy and have turned up some I haven't posted about yet.

>

> One of these that I also find fascinating is RE looking into whether the

behaviors of borderline pd in particular could be due to unknown, untreated

traumatic brain injury. In this study, they're comparing one group of bpd

individuals with no known history of traumatic brain injury with another group

of bpd individuals who have a medical record of at least one traumatic brain

injury. Fascinating stuff.

>

> -Annie

>

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Posted
Posted

Annie, I'd sure be interested in that brain injury study too. Our interests

are similar because my father is on the sociopath side with my nada on the BPD

side. I can't imagine how terrifying it must have been for you to have a mother

with BPD and sociopathic behavior. It's a wonder that you and your sister are

willing to have anything to do with her at all. I was once involved in a love

relationship with a sociopath (he was so attractive, like dear old dad I guess)

and in hindsight it makes my skin crawl to think that I was ever involved with

him. The thought of someone like that having the power of a mother over a

child just chills my blood. I've often struggled with anger over the years

toward my father for leaving me to be raised alone by my crazy mother - but

truth is if he'd stuck around I wouldn't have been better off, maybe a lot worse

off. There have been points in my life when I've imagined I've broken free and

overcome the horrible legacy of it all but somehow that never really lasts.

Stealing Doug's line here...may we all heal!

>

> Wow, those are good points! Thing is, with my bpd/npd nada I think her

motivations have do to with BOTH those reasons.

>

> I think my nada will sometimes behave abusively due to defensive motives,

which may or may not be under her conscious control (more in the nature of

unplanned & reactive to a trigger = emotional dysregulation) but I have also

experienced her being abusive to me in a very calculated and malicious way,

which seems to come from feelings of entitlement/ownership/revenge. Those

abusive behaviors are *planned*. (i.e., psychopathic?)

>

> The German study I referenced in my original post is just another study in

probably what will be decades of continued studies pursuing different theories

RE what the heck is going on inside the brains and minds of those with

personality disorder, and why, and how these disorders come about, and how they

can be more effectively treated (or prevented, or cured!)

>

> I'm on the lookout for any/all studies concerning Cluster B disorders and

psychopathy and have turned up some I haven't posted about yet.

>

> One of these that I also find fascinating is RE looking into whether the

behaviors of borderline pd in particular could be due to unknown, untreated

traumatic brain injury. In this study, they're comparing one group of bpd

individuals with no known history of traumatic brain injury with another group

of bpd individuals who have a medical record of at least one traumatic brain

injury. Fascinating stuff.

>

> -Annie

>

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Posted
Posted

Dear Annie,

I've always considered the Cluster Bs to be on a continuum--an original idea I

think I got from you? Which may or may not be based on the actual DSM criteria.

I organize them in terms of a lesser and lesser ability of empathy: histrionic,

then bpd, then npd, then psychopath/antisocial (which I consider kindof the same

category). The idea is that the further along the spectrum, the less the

ability to empathize in one's heart--that is, actually *feel* concern for

others. (Npds and psychopaths can mentally deduce what others are feeling, but

they can't relate to it or care about it.) I also go down the continuum based

on violent motivations--whereas the histrionics just want all eyes on them; the

bpds want to force people's eyes on them but not usually to intentionally harm;

the npds actually want to harm to feed their greed; and the psychopaths want to

harm because they get a rise out of it. All of these Cluster B's *need* to

harm, and can't (or refuse to) control doing so--but their reasons grow more and

more violent along the continuum.

I really wish I was friends with a prominent psychological researcher so I could

have some actual input in these matters...

Charlie

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article promoting

the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother seems

to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time to

time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a subscriber

to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been able to

locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

>

> -Annie

>

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Posted
Posted

Dear Annie,

I've always considered the Cluster Bs to be on a continuum--an original idea I

think I got from you? Which may or may not be based on the actual DSM criteria.

I organize them in terms of a lesser and lesser ability of empathy: histrionic,

then bpd, then npd, then psychopath/antisocial (which I consider kindof the same

category). The idea is that the further along the spectrum, the less the

ability to empathize in one's heart--that is, actually *feel* concern for

others. (Npds and psychopaths can mentally deduce what others are feeling, but

they can't relate to it or care about it.) I also go down the continuum based

on violent motivations--whereas the histrionics just want all eyes on them; the

bpds want to force people's eyes on them but not usually to intentionally harm;

the npds actually want to harm to feed their greed; and the psychopaths want to

harm because they get a rise out of it. All of these Cluster B's *need* to

harm, and can't (or refuse to) control doing so--but their reasons grow more and

more violent along the continuum.

I really wish I was friends with a prominent psychological researcher so I could

have some actual input in these matters...

Charlie

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article promoting

the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother seems

to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time to

time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a subscriber

to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been able to

locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

>

> -Annie

>

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Posted

Dear Annie,

I've always considered the Cluster Bs to be on a continuum--an original idea I

think I got from you? Which may or may not be based on the actual DSM criteria.

I organize them in terms of a lesser and lesser ability of empathy: histrionic,

then bpd, then npd, then psychopath/antisocial (which I consider kindof the same

category). The idea is that the further along the spectrum, the less the

ability to empathize in one's heart--that is, actually *feel* concern for

others. (Npds and psychopaths can mentally deduce what others are feeling, but

they can't relate to it or care about it.) I also go down the continuum based

on violent motivations--whereas the histrionics just want all eyes on them; the

bpds want to force people's eyes on them but not usually to intentionally harm;

the npds actually want to harm to feed their greed; and the psychopaths want to

harm because they get a rise out of it. All of these Cluster B's *need* to

harm, and can't (or refuse to) control doing so--but their reasons grow more and

more violent along the continuum.

I really wish I was friends with a prominent psychological researcher so I could

have some actual input in these matters...

Charlie

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article promoting

the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother seems

to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time to

time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a subscriber

to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been able to

locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

>

> -Annie

>

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Posted
Posted

Your assessment of the continuum approach makes sense to me. Its true that I

have been posting about the " continuum " concept for a while now, but I didn't

originate it. Psychologists have (apparently) been debating the idea for years:

is diagnosing a patient using a continuum of severity/frequency of disordered

traits and behaviors better than the current system of classifying separate and

distinct disorders? I simply read about it in a study or article and

" continuum " just seemed like a more logical approach to me, particularly RE

Cluster B disorders and psychopathy. From the posts here, it does seem that

some nadas are able to feel some empathy and are less severely affected by bpd,

while other nadas feel little if any empathy and are more severely affected.

(The article I referenced in my OP points out that someone can have borderline

pd traits AND psychopathy traits at the same time; yet another co-morbidity

possibility.)

In general I like the idea of a more tailored/personal/individual diagnosis,

i.e., going down a huge checklist of all the possible disordered

traits/behaviors and then rating them by frequency and severity (if they're

present); it just makes more sense to me, particularly since there is so much

overlap of traits and behaviors now.

But I understand how each way of classifying mental illnesses has its advantages

and disadvantages.

I'm with you, I wish I could sit in on professional discussions about these

things and hear what their thinking is about personality disorder and (magical

thinking here:) share my perspective as an adult child of a Cluster B mother.

-Annie

>

> Dear Annie,

>

> I've always considered the Cluster Bs to be on a continuum--an original idea I

think I got from you? Which may or may not be based on the actual DSM criteria.

I organize them in terms of a lesser and lesser ability of empathy: histrionic,

then bpd, then npd, then psychopath/antisocial (which I consider kindof the same

category). The idea is that the further along the spectrum, the less the

ability to empathize in one's heart--that is, actually *feel* concern for

others. (Npds and psychopaths can mentally deduce what others are feeling, but

they can't relate to it or care about it.) I also go down the continuum based

on violent motivations--whereas the histrionics just want all eyes on them; the

bpds want to force people's eyes on them but not usually to intentionally harm;

the npds actually want to harm to feed their greed; and the psychopaths want to

harm because they get a rise out of it. All of these Cluster B's *need* to

harm, and can't (or refuse to) control doing so--but their reasons grow more and

more violent along the continuum.

>

> I really wish I was friends with a prominent psychological researcher so I

could have some actual input in these matters...

>

> Charlie

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Posted
Posted

Your assessment of the continuum approach makes sense to me. Its true that I

have been posting about the " continuum " concept for a while now, but I didn't

originate it. Psychologists have (apparently) been debating the idea for years:

is diagnosing a patient using a continuum of severity/frequency of disordered

traits and behaviors better than the current system of classifying separate and

distinct disorders? I simply read about it in a study or article and

" continuum " just seemed like a more logical approach to me, particularly RE

Cluster B disorders and psychopathy. From the posts here, it does seem that

some nadas are able to feel some empathy and are less severely affected by bpd,

while other nadas feel little if any empathy and are more severely affected.

(The article I referenced in my OP points out that someone can have borderline

pd traits AND psychopathy traits at the same time; yet another co-morbidity

possibility.)

In general I like the idea of a more tailored/personal/individual diagnosis,

i.e., going down a huge checklist of all the possible disordered

traits/behaviors and then rating them by frequency and severity (if they're

present); it just makes more sense to me, particularly since there is so much

overlap of traits and behaviors now.

But I understand how each way of classifying mental illnesses has its advantages

and disadvantages.

I'm with you, I wish I could sit in on professional discussions about these

things and hear what their thinking is about personality disorder and (magical

thinking here:) share my perspective as an adult child of a Cluster B mother.

-Annie

>

> Dear Annie,

>

> I've always considered the Cluster Bs to be on a continuum--an original idea I

think I got from you? Which may or may not be based on the actual DSM criteria.

I organize them in terms of a lesser and lesser ability of empathy: histrionic,

then bpd, then npd, then psychopath/antisocial (which I consider kindof the same

category). The idea is that the further along the spectrum, the less the

ability to empathize in one's heart--that is, actually *feel* concern for

others. (Npds and psychopaths can mentally deduce what others are feeling, but

they can't relate to it or care about it.) I also go down the continuum based

on violent motivations--whereas the histrionics just want all eyes on them; the

bpds want to force people's eyes on them but not usually to intentionally harm;

the npds actually want to harm to feed their greed; and the psychopaths want to

harm because they get a rise out of it. All of these Cluster B's *need* to

harm, and can't (or refuse to) control doing so--but their reasons grow more and

more violent along the continuum.

>

> I really wish I was friends with a prominent psychological researcher so I

could have some actual input in these matters...

>

> Charlie

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Posted
Posted

Your assessment of the continuum approach makes sense to me. Its true that I

have been posting about the " continuum " concept for a while now, but I didn't

originate it. Psychologists have (apparently) been debating the idea for years:

is diagnosing a patient using a continuum of severity/frequency of disordered

traits and behaviors better than the current system of classifying separate and

distinct disorders? I simply read about it in a study or article and

" continuum " just seemed like a more logical approach to me, particularly RE

Cluster B disorders and psychopathy. From the posts here, it does seem that

some nadas are able to feel some empathy and are less severely affected by bpd,

while other nadas feel little if any empathy and are more severely affected.

(The article I referenced in my OP points out that someone can have borderline

pd traits AND psychopathy traits at the same time; yet another co-morbidity

possibility.)

In general I like the idea of a more tailored/personal/individual diagnosis,

i.e., going down a huge checklist of all the possible disordered

traits/behaviors and then rating them by frequency and severity (if they're

present); it just makes more sense to me, particularly since there is so much

overlap of traits and behaviors now.

But I understand how each way of classifying mental illnesses has its advantages

and disadvantages.

I'm with you, I wish I could sit in on professional discussions about these

things and hear what their thinking is about personality disorder and (magical

thinking here:) share my perspective as an adult child of a Cluster B mother.

-Annie

>

> Dear Annie,

>

> I've always considered the Cluster Bs to be on a continuum--an original idea I

think I got from you? Which may or may not be based on the actual DSM criteria.

I organize them in terms of a lesser and lesser ability of empathy: histrionic,

then bpd, then npd, then psychopath/antisocial (which I consider kindof the same

category). The idea is that the further along the spectrum, the less the

ability to empathize in one's heart--that is, actually *feel* concern for

others. (Npds and psychopaths can mentally deduce what others are feeling, but

they can't relate to it or care about it.) I also go down the continuum based

on violent motivations--whereas the histrionics just want all eyes on them; the

bpds want to force people's eyes on them but not usually to intentionally harm;

the npds actually want to harm to feed their greed; and the psychopaths want to

harm because they get a rise out of it. All of these Cluster B's *need* to

harm, and can't (or refuse to) control doing so--but their reasons grow more and

more violent along the continuum.

>

> I really wish I was friends with a prominent psychological researcher so I

could have some actual input in these matters...

>

> Charlie

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Truly: may we all heal. The idea of a child being raised by a psychopath is

chilling. Its like handing over a newborn infant to a two-year-old toddler to

take care of. Its that shockingly inappropriate. And yes, it was terrifying

for me to get the feeling that my mother was actually enjoying punishing me or

would look for reasons to punish me. Which is why I think I trauma-bonded with

her; I sublimated my own personality and became her " mini-me " as a coping

mechanism to hopefully make her happier with me so she'd " go off " on me less

often.

-Annie

>

> Annie, I'd sure be interested in that brain injury study too. Our interests

are similar because my father is on the sociopath side with my nada on the BPD

side. I can't imagine how terrifying it must have been for you to have a mother

with BPD and sociopathic behavior. It's a wonder that you and your sister are

willing to have anything to do with her at all. I was once involved in a love

relationship with a sociopath (he was so attractive, like dear old dad I guess)

and in hindsight it makes my skin crawl to think that I was ever involved with

him. The thought of someone like that having the power of a mother over a

child just chills my blood. I've often struggled with anger over the years

toward my father for leaving me to be raised alone by my crazy mother - but

truth is if he'd stuck around I wouldn't have been better off, maybe a lot worse

off. There have been points in my life when I've imagined I've broken free and

overcome the horrible legacy of it all but somehow that never really lasts.

>

> Stealing Doug's line here...may we all heal!

>

>

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Thanks so much for sharing this,Annie :)

It truly is fascinating stuff.I find the degree of overlap along the Cluster B

continuum rather perplexing.Take for example the smear campaign: if a BPD is

engaging in one,is it based only on them projecting their own negative traits on

to someone else and a la " psychosis lite " actually believing their own

projections? But where does the element of pure calculation to harm another's

reputation come in,which would be a trait of psychopathy,since when psychopaths

launch a smear campaign they *know* that their target is " innocent as

accused " --they are not projecting any of their own disowned issues onto the

person they have targeted for demolition but are simply engaging in a power

play.They *intentionally* plant doubts in other peoples' minds about the

target's good character or good will while posing themselves as benevolent,but

they do this cold bloodedly.But a BPD who is splitting someone all bad might,in

an excess of emotional dysregulation, " genuinely " believe that the person they're

smearing is evil and that they,the BPD,are an innocent victim of the " bad "

person.

My nada does both: psychopathy and BPD co-existing in her.I know that

sometimes she really did " think " I was demonic,while at other times she knew

damned well I had only the purest of intentions.When she was perceiving me as

" demonic " it was always related to some BPD " psychosis lite " thing and I believe

she really was freaked out by me.In a way that a psychopath doesn't feel freaked

out,more like superstitious thinking which is a BPD thing: I know from reading

the posts at " Sociopath World " that psychopaths are not at all superstitious!

For example,when I was about three I asked her if the illustrations in one of my

books were based on the Nazca Lines in Peru and she had a total freak out

meltdown,asking me hysterically, " How do you know about the Nazca Lines of Peru?

What's Peru? "

When I tried to calm her down by saying (I thought) logically, " Well,Peru

is a country in South America with mountains and Indians " she went *insane* and

went running about into the living room to fada in tears going, " There's

something wrong with her,she's possessed,she's not a little girl,she just told

me the weirdest thing... " like she was terrified of me while I stood there

wondering what in the hell I had done wrong.And I couldn't remember how I knew

about the Nazca Lines and felt afraid of *myself*.I'd probably seen something

about it on tv,that was ALL,but she was behaving as if it was the end of the

world.Smearing me to fada in a way but out of actual (if completely irrational

and superstitious) fear.

However,a couple of months later when my little brother went crashing

down the basement stairs in his walker (and miraculously wasn't injured at

all!),she lied to fada that I had *pushed* him to cover her neglectful ass.I

hadn't pushed him: I remember that moment; I even remember what she was doing

when it happened (folding laundry in the living room,after having left the

basement door open) and what she was watching on tv ( " Let's Make A Deal " ).I had

told her twice that my brother had wandered out to the kitchen and that the

basement door was still open and twice she had gone " uh huh " not hearing me at

all because she was so absorbed in watching adults dressed up in costume on some

silly game show and I was annoyed both with her and with the inanity on the

television.I distinctly recall that I was standing at her side almost hopping

from foot to foot in frustration because she wasn't listening to me and indeed

wouldn't even look at me and I was thinking resentfully that I'd have to go and

get my brother myself and close the damned door myself when we both heard a

crashing boom following by him screaming.But fada,until the day he died,believed

that I had pushed my brother down those stairs--the day it happened he had

wanted to give me a spanking when I protested my innocence to impress on me that

I should never " do that again " but nada told him, " I already gave her a spanking

for fibbing about pushing him,I think she learned her lesson. " Another lie: she

had not spanked me at all but had just screamed at me " Shut up! Shut up! " when I

said to her, " I TOLD you the basement door was open and he was out in the

kitchen... " after we'd both run downstairs to assess my brother's injuries.

That time,she *knew* I was completely blameless and she *knew* that she

was accusing me of something I hadn't done.Some thirty five years later this

incident came up in conversation with fada when I made a jokingly innocent

comment about the basement stairs just to have something to say to him (I often

found it difficult to converse with him) and he muttered nastily, " I seem to

remember you pushed your brother down those stairs when you were little " as if

it was malicious of me to be making any kind of a joke at all about the basement

stairs and *again*,just like the day it had happened,I protested my innocence in

vain (although that time fada didn't threaten a spanking ;).Nada had

successfully--and psychopathically--demolished my good character.When in truth

all I had felt the day my brother had gone down those stairs was *concern* for

his welfare.

So,at times she did split me all bad out of fear and other times she

" split " me bad with total premeditated calculation.I think that if I weighed up

all of the incidents she either split me bad out of fear or split me bad cold

bloodedly,it would come out something like 30 percent of the time out of fear,70

percent of the time in cold blood.So I guess if she was evaluated on the

continuum her diagnosis would be something like " moderate BPD with severe

psychopathy " .If that's the way it works? I still don't understand how that

continuum is used for diagnosis! I mean,I don't doubt she has BPD but I think

her psychopathy predominates.Although when she is in the grip of some BPD

emotional symptom,she is in absolute helpless thrall to it--and plain old

psychopaths are never,never ruled by their emotions in that way.A conundrum that

is perhaps resolved by saying that,yes,BPD and psychopathy can indeed be

co-morbid.I just think my own nada is more of a psychopath with enough traits of

BPD to " qualify " for that diagnosis too,whereas maybe in the case of another

nada it would be: BPD with enough psychopathic traits to " qualify " for inclusion

in the psychopathy ballpark too.

My nada also has symptoms of NPD and Histrionic PD.What a toxic brew...

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article promoting

the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother seems

to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time to

time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a subscriber

to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been able to

locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

>

> -Annie

>

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Share on other sites
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Posted
Posted

Thanks so much for sharing this,Annie :)

It truly is fascinating stuff.I find the degree of overlap along the Cluster B

continuum rather perplexing.Take for example the smear campaign: if a BPD is

engaging in one,is it based only on them projecting their own negative traits on

to someone else and a la " psychosis lite " actually believing their own

projections? But where does the element of pure calculation to harm another's

reputation come in,which would be a trait of psychopathy,since when psychopaths

launch a smear campaign they *know* that their target is " innocent as

accused " --they are not projecting any of their own disowned issues onto the

person they have targeted for demolition but are simply engaging in a power

play.They *intentionally* plant doubts in other peoples' minds about the

target's good character or good will while posing themselves as benevolent,but

they do this cold bloodedly.But a BPD who is splitting someone all bad might,in

an excess of emotional dysregulation, " genuinely " believe that the person they're

smearing is evil and that they,the BPD,are an innocent victim of the " bad "

person.

My nada does both: psychopathy and BPD co-existing in her.I know that

sometimes she really did " think " I was demonic,while at other times she knew

damned well I had only the purest of intentions.When she was perceiving me as

" demonic " it was always related to some BPD " psychosis lite " thing and I believe

she really was freaked out by me.In a way that a psychopath doesn't feel freaked

out,more like superstitious thinking which is a BPD thing: I know from reading

the posts at " Sociopath World " that psychopaths are not at all superstitious!

For example,when I was about three I asked her if the illustrations in one of my

books were based on the Nazca Lines in Peru and she had a total freak out

meltdown,asking me hysterically, " How do you know about the Nazca Lines of Peru?

What's Peru? "

When I tried to calm her down by saying (I thought) logically, " Well,Peru

is a country in South America with mountains and Indians " she went *insane* and

went running about into the living room to fada in tears going, " There's

something wrong with her,she's possessed,she's not a little girl,she just told

me the weirdest thing... " like she was terrified of me while I stood there

wondering what in the hell I had done wrong.And I couldn't remember how I knew

about the Nazca Lines and felt afraid of *myself*.I'd probably seen something

about it on tv,that was ALL,but she was behaving as if it was the end of the

world.Smearing me to fada in a way but out of actual (if completely irrational

and superstitious) fear.

However,a couple of months later when my little brother went crashing

down the basement stairs in his walker (and miraculously wasn't injured at

all!),she lied to fada that I had *pushed* him to cover her neglectful ass.I

hadn't pushed him: I remember that moment; I even remember what she was doing

when it happened (folding laundry in the living room,after having left the

basement door open) and what she was watching on tv ( " Let's Make A Deal " ).I had

told her twice that my brother had wandered out to the kitchen and that the

basement door was still open and twice she had gone " uh huh " not hearing me at

all because she was so absorbed in watching adults dressed up in costume on some

silly game show and I was annoyed both with her and with the inanity on the

television.I distinctly recall that I was standing at her side almost hopping

from foot to foot in frustration because she wasn't listening to me and indeed

wouldn't even look at me and I was thinking resentfully that I'd have to go and

get my brother myself and close the damned door myself when we both heard a

crashing boom following by him screaming.But fada,until the day he died,believed

that I had pushed my brother down those stairs--the day it happened he had

wanted to give me a spanking when I protested my innocence to impress on me that

I should never " do that again " but nada told him, " I already gave her a spanking

for fibbing about pushing him,I think she learned her lesson. " Another lie: she

had not spanked me at all but had just screamed at me " Shut up! Shut up! " when I

said to her, " I TOLD you the basement door was open and he was out in the

kitchen... " after we'd both run downstairs to assess my brother's injuries.

That time,she *knew* I was completely blameless and she *knew* that she

was accusing me of something I hadn't done.Some thirty five years later this

incident came up in conversation with fada when I made a jokingly innocent

comment about the basement stairs just to have something to say to him (I often

found it difficult to converse with him) and he muttered nastily, " I seem to

remember you pushed your brother down those stairs when you were little " as if

it was malicious of me to be making any kind of a joke at all about the basement

stairs and *again*,just like the day it had happened,I protested my innocence in

vain (although that time fada didn't threaten a spanking ;).Nada had

successfully--and psychopathically--demolished my good character.When in truth

all I had felt the day my brother had gone down those stairs was *concern* for

his welfare.

So,at times she did split me all bad out of fear and other times she

" split " me bad with total premeditated calculation.I think that if I weighed up

all of the incidents she either split me bad out of fear or split me bad cold

bloodedly,it would come out something like 30 percent of the time out of fear,70

percent of the time in cold blood.So I guess if she was evaluated on the

continuum her diagnosis would be something like " moderate BPD with severe

psychopathy " .If that's the way it works? I still don't understand how that

continuum is used for diagnosis! I mean,I don't doubt she has BPD but I think

her psychopathy predominates.Although when she is in the grip of some BPD

emotional symptom,she is in absolute helpless thrall to it--and plain old

psychopaths are never,never ruled by their emotions in that way.A conundrum that

is perhaps resolved by saying that,yes,BPD and psychopathy can indeed be

co-morbid.I just think my own nada is more of a psychopath with enough traits of

BPD to " qualify " for that diagnosis too,whereas maybe in the case of another

nada it would be: BPD with enough psychopathic traits to " qualify " for inclusion

in the psychopathy ballpark too.

My nada also has symptoms of NPD and Histrionic PD.What a toxic brew...

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article promoting

the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother seems

to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time to

time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a subscriber

to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been able to

locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

>

> -Annie

>

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Share on other sites
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Posted
Posted

Thanks so much for sharing this,Annie :)

It truly is fascinating stuff.I find the degree of overlap along the Cluster B

continuum rather perplexing.Take for example the smear campaign: if a BPD is

engaging in one,is it based only on them projecting their own negative traits on

to someone else and a la " psychosis lite " actually believing their own

projections? But where does the element of pure calculation to harm another's

reputation come in,which would be a trait of psychopathy,since when psychopaths

launch a smear campaign they *know* that their target is " innocent as

accused " --they are not projecting any of their own disowned issues onto the

person they have targeted for demolition but are simply engaging in a power

play.They *intentionally* plant doubts in other peoples' minds about the

target's good character or good will while posing themselves as benevolent,but

they do this cold bloodedly.But a BPD who is splitting someone all bad might,in

an excess of emotional dysregulation, " genuinely " believe that the person they're

smearing is evil and that they,the BPD,are an innocent victim of the " bad "

person.

My nada does both: psychopathy and BPD co-existing in her.I know that

sometimes she really did " think " I was demonic,while at other times she knew

damned well I had only the purest of intentions.When she was perceiving me as

" demonic " it was always related to some BPD " psychosis lite " thing and I believe

she really was freaked out by me.In a way that a psychopath doesn't feel freaked

out,more like superstitious thinking which is a BPD thing: I know from reading

the posts at " Sociopath World " that psychopaths are not at all superstitious!

For example,when I was about three I asked her if the illustrations in one of my

books were based on the Nazca Lines in Peru and she had a total freak out

meltdown,asking me hysterically, " How do you know about the Nazca Lines of Peru?

What's Peru? "

When I tried to calm her down by saying (I thought) logically, " Well,Peru

is a country in South America with mountains and Indians " she went *insane* and

went running about into the living room to fada in tears going, " There's

something wrong with her,she's possessed,she's not a little girl,she just told

me the weirdest thing... " like she was terrified of me while I stood there

wondering what in the hell I had done wrong.And I couldn't remember how I knew

about the Nazca Lines and felt afraid of *myself*.I'd probably seen something

about it on tv,that was ALL,but she was behaving as if it was the end of the

world.Smearing me to fada in a way but out of actual (if completely irrational

and superstitious) fear.

However,a couple of months later when my little brother went crashing

down the basement stairs in his walker (and miraculously wasn't injured at

all!),she lied to fada that I had *pushed* him to cover her neglectful ass.I

hadn't pushed him: I remember that moment; I even remember what she was doing

when it happened (folding laundry in the living room,after having left the

basement door open) and what she was watching on tv ( " Let's Make A Deal " ).I had

told her twice that my brother had wandered out to the kitchen and that the

basement door was still open and twice she had gone " uh huh " not hearing me at

all because she was so absorbed in watching adults dressed up in costume on some

silly game show and I was annoyed both with her and with the inanity on the

television.I distinctly recall that I was standing at her side almost hopping

from foot to foot in frustration because she wasn't listening to me and indeed

wouldn't even look at me and I was thinking resentfully that I'd have to go and

get my brother myself and close the damned door myself when we both heard a

crashing boom following by him screaming.But fada,until the day he died,believed

that I had pushed my brother down those stairs--the day it happened he had

wanted to give me a spanking when I protested my innocence to impress on me that

I should never " do that again " but nada told him, " I already gave her a spanking

for fibbing about pushing him,I think she learned her lesson. " Another lie: she

had not spanked me at all but had just screamed at me " Shut up! Shut up! " when I

said to her, " I TOLD you the basement door was open and he was out in the

kitchen... " after we'd both run downstairs to assess my brother's injuries.

That time,she *knew* I was completely blameless and she *knew* that she

was accusing me of something I hadn't done.Some thirty five years later this

incident came up in conversation with fada when I made a jokingly innocent

comment about the basement stairs just to have something to say to him (I often

found it difficult to converse with him) and he muttered nastily, " I seem to

remember you pushed your brother down those stairs when you were little " as if

it was malicious of me to be making any kind of a joke at all about the basement

stairs and *again*,just like the day it had happened,I protested my innocence in

vain (although that time fada didn't threaten a spanking ;).Nada had

successfully--and psychopathically--demolished my good character.When in truth

all I had felt the day my brother had gone down those stairs was *concern* for

his welfare.

So,at times she did split me all bad out of fear and other times she

" split " me bad with total premeditated calculation.I think that if I weighed up

all of the incidents she either split me bad out of fear or split me bad cold

bloodedly,it would come out something like 30 percent of the time out of fear,70

percent of the time in cold blood.So I guess if she was evaluated on the

continuum her diagnosis would be something like " moderate BPD with severe

psychopathy " .If that's the way it works? I still don't understand how that

continuum is used for diagnosis! I mean,I don't doubt she has BPD but I think

her psychopathy predominates.Although when she is in the grip of some BPD

emotional symptom,she is in absolute helpless thrall to it--and plain old

psychopaths are never,never ruled by their emotions in that way.A conundrum that

is perhaps resolved by saying that,yes,BPD and psychopathy can indeed be

co-morbid.I just think my own nada is more of a psychopath with enough traits of

BPD to " qualify " for that diagnosis too,whereas maybe in the case of another

nada it would be: BPD with enough psychopathic traits to " qualify " for inclusion

in the psychopathy ballpark too.

My nada also has symptoms of NPD and Histrionic PD.What a toxic brew...

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article promoting

the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother seems

to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time to

time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a subscriber

to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been able to

locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

>

> -Annie

>

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Posted
Posted

After all the incidents you've shared with us here, it just seems so clear to me

that your nada was completely legally insane.

I agree with you that she was sometimes displaying personality disorder traits

(emotionally disregulated, attention seeking, sense of entitlement, cognitively

distorted thinking, blaming, projecting, etc.) AND psychopathic traits (lack of

a conscience, lack of remorse, lack of empathy, revenge-seeking, treating you

like an object, etc.) AND psychotic traits (breaks with reality such as

believing you to be demon-possessed, believing you to be capable of breaking

yourself up into dots and transporting magically from one room to another, etc.)

How sad that neither of your parents were able to comprehend that you were in a

super-genius rage of intelligence and didn't get you into advanced programs to

nurture it. Instead, your mother was freaked out and (again) interpreted your

intelligence as something demonic.

That is just so tragic, to me. (I can't help it, I keep being reminded of

Tarzan as a child being regarded as " weird " and " dangerous " by his adoptive ape

" father " and most of the other apes.)

I agree: it is really hard to tease out whether any particular act or thought of

your nada's was originating from her Cluster B personality disorders, from

psychosis, or from psychopathy. Or from some bizarre soup-like mixture of all

of them. (Dr. Hare, the originator of the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, thinks

that psychopathy should have its own separate classification and not just be

considered another term for " antisocial pd. " )

-Annie

> >

> > Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

> >

> > I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time

to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

> >

> > Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

> >

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

> >

> > A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been

able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

> >

> > " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

> >

> > Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

> >

> > Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

> >

> > I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

> >

> > It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

After all the incidents you've shared with us here, it just seems so clear to me

that your nada was completely legally insane.

I agree with you that she was sometimes displaying personality disorder traits

(emotionally disregulated, attention seeking, sense of entitlement, cognitively

distorted thinking, blaming, projecting, etc.) AND psychopathic traits (lack of

a conscience, lack of remorse, lack of empathy, revenge-seeking, treating you

like an object, etc.) AND psychotic traits (breaks with reality such as

believing you to be demon-possessed, believing you to be capable of breaking

yourself up into dots and transporting magically from one room to another, etc.)

How sad that neither of your parents were able to comprehend that you were in a

super-genius rage of intelligence and didn't get you into advanced programs to

nurture it. Instead, your mother was freaked out and (again) interpreted your

intelligence as something demonic.

That is just so tragic, to me. (I can't help it, I keep being reminded of

Tarzan as a child being regarded as " weird " and " dangerous " by his adoptive ape

" father " and most of the other apes.)

I agree: it is really hard to tease out whether any particular act or thought of

your nada's was originating from her Cluster B personality disorders, from

psychosis, or from psychopathy. Or from some bizarre soup-like mixture of all

of them. (Dr. Hare, the originator of the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, thinks

that psychopathy should have its own separate classification and not just be

considered another term for " antisocial pd. " )

-Annie

> >

> > Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

> >

> > I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time

to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

> >

> > Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

> >

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

> >

> > A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been

able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

> >

> > " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

> >

> > Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

> >

> > Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

> >

> > I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

> >

> > It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

After all the incidents you've shared with us here, it just seems so clear to me

that your nada was completely legally insane.

I agree with you that she was sometimes displaying personality disorder traits

(emotionally disregulated, attention seeking, sense of entitlement, cognitively

distorted thinking, blaming, projecting, etc.) AND psychopathic traits (lack of

a conscience, lack of remorse, lack of empathy, revenge-seeking, treating you

like an object, etc.) AND psychotic traits (breaks with reality such as

believing you to be demon-possessed, believing you to be capable of breaking

yourself up into dots and transporting magically from one room to another, etc.)

How sad that neither of your parents were able to comprehend that you were in a

super-genius rage of intelligence and didn't get you into advanced programs to

nurture it. Instead, your mother was freaked out and (again) interpreted your

intelligence as something demonic.

That is just so tragic, to me. (I can't help it, I keep being reminded of

Tarzan as a child being regarded as " weird " and " dangerous " by his adoptive ape

" father " and most of the other apes.)

I agree: it is really hard to tease out whether any particular act or thought of

your nada's was originating from her Cluster B personality disorders, from

psychosis, or from psychopathy. Or from some bizarre soup-like mixture of all

of them. (Dr. Hare, the originator of the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, thinks

that psychopathy should have its own separate classification and not just be

considered another term for " antisocial pd. " )

-Annie

> >

> > Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related to

psychopathy than previously considered.

> >

> > I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from time

to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap between the

diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that these traits

and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy.

> >

> > Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

> >

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

> >

> > A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't been

able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about it:

> >

> > " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

> >

> > Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

> >

> > Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

> >

> > I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE my

wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

" psychopathy lite " ?

> >

> > It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

well.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

Very interesting, Annie. But, I guess I'm slightly confused... in my psych

class, we were told that antisocial PD was just the new name for what was

once called sociopathy/psychopathy. Maybe I'm missing something, but I

thought APD was soc/pscyho. LOL. And it is a cluster B, and yes, there does

tend to be a lot of overlap in my non-professional opinion as well!

Mia who is slightly confused but enjoyed the article none the less!

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 5:26 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

> promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related

> to psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

> seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from

> time to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap

> between the diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that

> these traits and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of

> psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

> subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't

> been able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about

> it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

> psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

> previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

> Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE

> my wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

> " psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

> well.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
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Posted
Posted

Very interesting, Annie. But, I guess I'm slightly confused... in my psych

class, we were told that antisocial PD was just the new name for what was

once called sociopathy/psychopathy. Maybe I'm missing something, but I

thought APD was soc/pscyho. LOL. And it is a cluster B, and yes, there does

tend to be a lot of overlap in my non-professional opinion as well!

Mia who is slightly confused but enjoyed the article none the less!

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 5:26 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

> promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related

> to psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

> seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from

> time to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap

> between the diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that

> these traits and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of

> psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

> subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't

> been able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about

> it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

> psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

> previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

> Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE

> my wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

> " psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

> well.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Very interesting, Annie. But, I guess I'm slightly confused... in my psych

class, we were told that antisocial PD was just the new name for what was

once called sociopathy/psychopathy. Maybe I'm missing something, but I

thought APD was soc/pscyho. LOL. And it is a cluster B, and yes, there does

tend to be a lot of overlap in my non-professional opinion as well!

Mia who is slightly confused but enjoyed the article none the less!

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 5:26 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

> promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related

> to psychopathy than previously considered.

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

> seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from

> time to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap

> between the diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that

> these traits and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of

> psychopathy.

>

> Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

>

>

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

>

> A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

> subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't

> been able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about

> it:

>

> " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

> psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

> previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

>

> Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

> Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

>

> Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

>

> I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE

> my wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

> " psychopathy lite " ?

>

> It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

> well.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

You're correct: the current edition, the DSM-IV, uses the term " antisocial pd. "

Earlier editions used the terms " psychopathic pd " and later " sociopathic pd "

somewhat interchangeably.

The confusion comes in (this is my interpretation from reading about this) when

the APA were working on edition #4 of the DSM, they removed some of the criteria

defining " sociopathic pd " , AND changed the term to " antisocial pd. "

Dr. Hare, an expert psychiatrist and researcher specializing in the criminally

insane, didn't agree with the reduction of criteria, and developed a protocol

called the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. His list of criteria is more like the

DSM-III criteria, and is based on Hervey Cleckley's original definitions and

descriptions of psychopathy/sociopathy in his book " The Mask of Sanity. "

Dr. Hare's criteria and checklist are now considered to be the " gold standard "

for diagnosing psychopathy among forensic communities (incarcerated criminals)

and Dr. Hare believes that psychopathy should have its own, separate

classification because its sort of... beyond antisocial criteria. Psychopathy

has more features than antisocial pd, I think is his reason.

As far as I know, at this point, though, the DSM is not going to have a separate

listing for psychopathy in edition #5. But I'm not positive about that.

-Annie

>

> >

> >

> > Below is the link to an article that references a scholarly article

> > promoting the idea that the Cluster B personality disorders are more related

> > to psychopathy than previously considered.

> >

> > I personally find this fascinating because I've noted that my own mother

> > seems to evidence traits and behaviors of all the Cluster B disorders from

> > time to time, and I've noted there is more than just a little overlap

> > between the diagnostic traits and behaviors of the Cluster B group, AND that

> > these traits and behaviors overlap with the diagnostic criteria of

> > psychopathy.

> >

> > Here's the article at LoveFraud that mentions the earlier article:

> >

> >

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2009/02/06/sociopaths-cluster-b-personality-disord\

ers-and-psychopathy/

> >

> > A PDF of the root article itself is not available unless you are a

> > subscriber to " Behavioral Sciences & The Law " publication, and I haven't

> > been able to locate it independently online yet. But here's the info about

> > it:

> >

> > " The relationship between DSM-IV cluster B personality disorders and

> > psychopathy according to Hare's criteria: clarification and resolution of

> > previous contradictions " (pages 901†" 911)

> >

> > Christian Huchzermeier, Friedemann Geiger, Emelie Bruß, Nils Godt, Denis

> > Köhler, Günter Hinrichs and f B. Aldenhoff

> >

> > Article first published online: 23 FEB 2007 | DOI: 10.1002/bsl.722

> >

> > I personally find this fascinating because I've been posting for years RE

> > my wondering if the Cluster B personality disorders could be considered

> > " psychopathy lite " ?

> >

> > It seems my question occurred to some legitimate psychiatric researchers as

> > well.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

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