Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 hi jenn, it hard for me to know what to give advise on. how did they put you down? it maybe you just need healthy boundaries for your own well being and self worth. i know how it feels to have few personal friends to turn to, i was at that point when i quit drinking.but as i lived life sober, i was able to nurture myself and the things i had a interests in, and then i started meeting more people who shared them. those relationships are much healthier than ones i ahd in AA, where everyone was there because they were afraid to leave. its not a instant thing, no one can guarantee how and when you will meet people who share your interests, but that ok, because you still get enjoy yourself and your activities along the way. and when you do meet people, they is nothing more interesting and attractive than someone who enjoys themselves and what they are doing. what do like to do? what have you always wanted to do for yourself, but never could because of the way you were living when you drank abusively? you can do those things, whatever they may be, and you can do them knowing that by allowing your self that, you give yourself a gift, you allow yourself to grow in anew. i think for me that kept me sober and smoke free for over 4 years now is i put my energies into things which rejuvenated the areas of myself my drinking and smoking damaged the most. hope i helped dave > Hey, > > Its and I havent had to many responses. Anyway I need some help > here. > I called people in AA today. Why? Its a habit I guess. I just ended up > feeling worse because they put me down. I know you are probably going to > say, " Stop calling them. " And I want to, but Im so used to talking with that > cult. That was so much a part of my life I really know only 1 or 2 people > personally that are not in AA. What should I do? Now I feel totally stupid > because look, I gave them even more power. I feel like I have no support > anymore other than this website and on this its hard for me because its not > in person. > > I dont really know where to begin to meet new people. Please get back to me > with your input. > > Thanks, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 At 07:05 PM 1/27/01 EST, GrahJAG@... wrote: > >Hey, > >Its and I havent had to many responses. Anyway I need some help >here. >I dont really know where to begin to meet new people. Please get back to me >with your input. At the risk of promoting something that might itself be called a cult (I've actually heard of funamentalist Christians call it a cult), go to this website <http://www.uua.org/>, click on Congregations and find the congregation nearest you, and go to their next " religious service " . Ironically, this is one place where you won't be told what to believe. > >Thanks, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 Hi , Ben's suggestion is a good one. Some others--take an adult education course, join a sports team (coed volleyball at a YMCA or YWCA, for example), try a civic club (Lions, Kiwanis, Optimists), volunteer for a cause you believe in.... And here's a radically different suggestion. When you feel the need to talk, do something different--take a walk, go for a run, or some other type of exercise. Pyschologists have found that talking about problems is often not a very effective way to regulate our emotions. ( Thayer, THE ORIGIN OF EVERYDAY MOODS)In fact, it may make things worse. The best strategy for overcoming negative emotions appears to be exercise. A fifteen or twenty minute walk will often do wonders for one's spirits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 Hi , Ben's suggestion is a good one. Some others--take an adult education course, join a sports team (coed volleyball at a YMCA or YWCA, for example), try a civic club (Lions, Kiwanis, Optimists), volunteer for a cause you believe in.... And here's a radically different suggestion. When you feel the need to talk, do something different--take a walk, go for a run, or some other type of exercise. Pyschologists have found that talking about problems is often not a very effective way to regulate our emotions. ( Thayer, THE ORIGIN OF EVERYDAY MOODS)In fact, it may make things worse. The best strategy for overcoming negative emotions appears to be exercise. A fifteen or twenty minute walk will often do wonders for one's spirits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 Hi , Ben's suggestion is a good one. Some others--take an adult education course, join a sports team (coed volleyball at a YMCA or YWCA, for example), try a civic club (Lions, Kiwanis, Optimists), volunteer for a cause you believe in.... And here's a radically different suggestion. When you feel the need to talk, do something different--take a walk, go for a run, or some other type of exercise. Pyschologists have found that talking about problems is often not a very effective way to regulate our emotions. ( Thayer, THE ORIGIN OF EVERYDAY MOODS)In fact, it may make things worse. The best strategy for overcoming negative emotions appears to be exercise. A fifteen or twenty minute walk will often do wonders for one's spirits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 Hi Ben There is a Xtian Minister on the freedomofmind group who has an anti-cults page. Apparently the Big Names in Xtianity, Catholic, Episcopalian, etc., basically have drawn up a kind of " Industry Standard " of what is real " Biblical " Xtianity that you must stick to for them to accept as being a legitimate Xtian Church, and they call anything a cult, however benevolent to its members, that doesnt comply with the standard. P. > > > >Hey, > > > >Its and I havent had to many responses. Anyway I need some help > >here. > > >I dont really know where to begin to meet new people. Please get back to me > >with your input. > > At the risk of promoting something that might itself be called a cult > (I've actually heard of funamentalist Christians call it a cult), go to > this website <http://www.uua.org/>, click on Congregations and find the > congregation nearest you, and go to their next " religious service " . > Ironically, this is one place where you won't be told what to believe. > > > > >Thanks, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 Hi Ben There is a Xtian Minister on the freedomofmind group who has an anti-cults page. Apparently the Big Names in Xtianity, Catholic, Episcopalian, etc., basically have drawn up a kind of " Industry Standard " of what is real " Biblical " Xtianity that you must stick to for them to accept as being a legitimate Xtian Church, and they call anything a cult, however benevolent to its members, that doesnt comply with the standard. P. > > > >Hey, > > > >Its and I havent had to many responses. Anyway I need some help > >here. > > >I dont really know where to begin to meet new people. Please get back to me > >with your input. > > At the risk of promoting something that might itself be called a cult > (I've actually heard of funamentalist Christians call it a cult), go to > this website <http://www.uua.org/>, click on Congregations and find the > congregation nearest you, and go to their next " religious service " . > Ironically, this is one place where you won't be told what to believe. > > > > >Thanks, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 i disagree, i think aa is obviouly a cult. and the lable can easily be supported in a debate. from the meaning of the word, its extremly clear AA is cult. the problem is, people have narrow image of what a cult is, they hear cult and they think of hollywoods' portayal of cults as people doing human scarifice and wearing black robes. or they think of the sucicide cults they see on TV, which is really about only time the news exposes cults. but how many people realize $cientology is a cult when they see Dianetics advertised on tv, or john travolta talk about on Leno? hwo many of them know it was inveted by a insane sci-fi writer and is based alien ghosts inhabiting every living creature on earth? cult (klt) n. 1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a religion or sect. 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual. 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual. 4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease. 5. a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. b. The object of such devotion. 6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest. > It effectively highlights the fact that the term cult is derisively thrown > around a bit too much in this country. As far as AA is concerned it's > enough to say and show that it is indeed religious, contrary to the general > line of argument to the contrary by it's members. (even though I'm the last > to stay with that reasoning) > > Is it a cult? Of course it is or it's so close to being one the distinction > is so infinitesimal as to be almost indistinguishable. More importantly > though it's religious. > > It's more important, I believe, precisely because the term cult is thrown > around so freely. It's too easy to throw off that accusation as the hostile > rantings of ex-members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 i disagree, i think aa is obviouly a cult. and the lable can easily be supported in a debate. from the meaning of the word, its extremly clear AA is cult. the problem is, people have narrow image of what a cult is, they hear cult and they think of hollywoods' portayal of cults as people doing human scarifice and wearing black robes. or they think of the sucicide cults they see on TV, which is really about only time the news exposes cults. but how many people realize $cientology is a cult when they see Dianetics advertised on tv, or john travolta talk about on Leno? hwo many of them know it was inveted by a insane sci-fi writer and is based alien ghosts inhabiting every living creature on earth? cult (klt) n. 1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a religion or sect. 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual. 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual. 4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease. 5. a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. b. The object of such devotion. 6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest. > It effectively highlights the fact that the term cult is derisively thrown > around a bit too much in this country. As far as AA is concerned it's > enough to say and show that it is indeed religious, contrary to the general > line of argument to the contrary by it's members. (even though I'm the last > to stay with that reasoning) > > Is it a cult? Of course it is or it's so close to being one the distinction > is so infinitesimal as to be almost indistinguishable. More importantly > though it's religious. > > It's more important, I believe, precisely because the term cult is thrown > around so freely. It's too easy to throw off that accusation as the hostile > rantings of ex-members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 Hi , I suggest doing some reading on of cognitive therapy self-help. "Feeling Good", by Burns is a good book about that stuff. Calling up people you'd rather avoid indicates a dependency! Burns writes about how to get past the belief that you need continuous infusions of love, approval, and support from others. Chances are, if you just start doing things you want to do, that you find interesting and rewarding in themselves (rather than as a subterfuge for 'meeting people' and joining a herd) you'll wind up with all the company you want anyway. --wally need more advice Hey, Its and I havent had to many responses. Anyway I need some help here. I called people in AA today. Why? Its a habit I guess. I just ended up feeling worse because they put me down. I know you are probably going to say, "Stop calling them." And I want to, but Im so used to talking with that cult. That was so much a part of my life I really know only 1 or 2 people personally that are not in AA. What should I do? Now I feel totally stupid because look, I gave them even more power. I feel like I have no support anymore other than this website and on this its hard for me because its not in person. I dont really know where to begin to meet new people. Please get back to me with your input. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 Hi , I suggest doing some reading on of cognitive therapy self-help. "Feeling Good", by Burns is a good book about that stuff. Calling up people you'd rather avoid indicates a dependency! Burns writes about how to get past the belief that you need continuous infusions of love, approval, and support from others. Chances are, if you just start doing things you want to do, that you find interesting and rewarding in themselves (rather than as a subterfuge for 'meeting people' and joining a herd) you'll wind up with all the company you want anyway. --wally need more advice Hey, Its and I havent had to many responses. Anyway I need some help here. I called people in AA today. Why? Its a habit I guess. I just ended up feeling worse because they put me down. I know you are probably going to say, "Stop calling them." And I want to, but Im so used to talking with that cult. That was so much a part of my life I really know only 1 or 2 people personally that are not in AA. What should I do? Now I feel totally stupid because look, I gave them even more power. I feel like I have no support anymore other than this website and on this its hard for me because its not in person. I dont really know where to begin to meet new people. Please get back to me with your input. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 Hi , I suggest doing some reading on of cognitive therapy self-help. "Feeling Good", by Burns is a good book about that stuff. Calling up people you'd rather avoid indicates a dependency! Burns writes about how to get past the belief that you need continuous infusions of love, approval, and support from others. Chances are, if you just start doing things you want to do, that you find interesting and rewarding in themselves (rather than as a subterfuge for 'meeting people' and joining a herd) you'll wind up with all the company you want anyway. --wally need more advice Hey, Its and I havent had to many responses. Anyway I need some help here. I called people in AA today. Why? Its a habit I guess. I just ended up feeling worse because they put me down. I know you are probably going to say, "Stop calling them." And I want to, but Im so used to talking with that cult. That was so much a part of my life I really know only 1 or 2 people personally that are not in AA. What should I do? Now I feel totally stupid because look, I gave them even more power. I feel like I have no support anymore other than this website and on this its hard for me because its not in person. I dont really know where to begin to meet new people. Please get back to me with your input. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 ok, i see what your saying now, my bad. the religious movements home page (linked in bookmarks section) came to that same conclusion. and it makes sense given that when you say word cult, to a member, they will put up a wall of defense which they have been taught. i was literally taught by my " grand sponsor " in first week in aa, why AA wasn't a cult. odd , given that i never suggested it, and really wasn't interested at the time. he thought it was significant i think that for some reason;) and although i understand your point ,now, i still disagree. for same reasons i disagree with the page i mentioned above. i think its a cop out. the word has meaning which is definite. because a group is ignorant as to what the meaning of word is, doesn't mean the word is wrongly applied to them. in Washington dc a few years ago, one of the mayors appointees used the word " niggardly " . he was instantly blasted for people believed it was some how a racial comment. the word means stingy, and has no connection to word nigger at all. the man declined the position a s to not embarrass the mayor. he gave up a job because of others ignorance. JL can argue that there other groups are cults and thrus try to dilutethe word, he may be right. right now im witnessing a football cult in baltimore, where i live, its called the ravens. this town is losing its collective mind. i have seen DC win 3 super bowls, but nothing like this. and they haven't even played game yet. but difference is are they destructive cults? i agree with steven hassan on that. that is criteria which matters most. JL can argue AA is not a cult, but when you look at meaning of word, and study cult methodlogy, he just comes across as a fool. on amazon .com, in reviews of Addiction is a choice, a stepper reviewed that he couldn't take anything Schaler wrote serious because he referred to AA's main text as the big book , and not its proper tiled of Alcoholic Anonymous! never mind that if he saw that done in a pro aa book, he wouldn't have dismissed it, hell the title of book is so unimportant, they emboss the title on rather than print it so that it wont be read by casual observers! he coudlnt argue the fact of the book, so he picked at the edges to find SOMETHING to allow his mind to work its way around issue. he already had lost with reason but didnt evebn know. that is where JL is if he has to dilute the word. he cant argue it, so try to weaken its meaning. he's already lost and he's backpedeling . check, then mate. i think to not call AA what it is, allows them to win, and diminishes the truth about what they are, a faith healing cult. a cult which uses most of the techniques of manipulation and distortion typical in all destructive cults. maybe not to same extremes as the more notable and destructive ones, but it is because of that, which has allowed aa to survive as long as it has. if it was as destructive as heavens gate for example, they would have survived 60 years. on the other hand, on the matter of coercion, that aa is a cult at all probably is irrelevant in regards to 1st amendment, in which case making the strong argument that AA is religious would be the strategy to take. but aa has a ingrained , knee jerk defense on that too, which although pathetically weak when looked at objectively and historically, is just as futile to argue with a stepper as it is that is a cult. imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 > Yeah, if you study, its apparent that AA is a cult. Its also apparent> that a lot of groups are mislabeled as cults. So has AA another dodge - " oh> we are one of the mislabeled cults " - " it's not possible for every> organization that's been called a cult to actually be a cult, so obviously> we were mislabeled " - they can say " compare us to a real cult. see we're> decent, not a cult " just bullshit, but its thick. well i can see how that would work for them, but if they will go to that length, then any critical look at them will be dismised just as friviosuly, in which case, why not stick with the fact they are a faith healing cult? > its like a low level virus, for a long time it spreads and mutates until> eventually everyone is contaminated and it mutates again, and all hell> breaks loose. Well, that may be a little overboard, but maybe not. i dont think that is overboard at all, just look at how the steps ahe branched out into 100's of groups and infected the culture in general. and lets not forget the oxfod group which started this whole mess is still alive as the MRA. > Is a cult necessarily a religion? Is a religion necessarily a cult? I> think the answer is yes to both, but that's just me. But I think the first> amendment covers religion (and therefore AA) i dont think the first amendment would offer cover from a cult group unless it was relgious as aa is. i think you can seperate the two. cults can be organized along power, money etc. lines too. amway for example, scientolgy which claims to be a relgion, was always about profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 > Yeah, if you study, its apparent that AA is a cult. Its also apparent> that a lot of groups are mislabeled as cults. So has AA another dodge - " oh> we are one of the mislabeled cults " - " it's not possible for every> organization that's been called a cult to actually be a cult, so obviously> we were mislabeled " - they can say " compare us to a real cult. see we're> decent, not a cult " just bullshit, but its thick. well i can see how that would work for them, but if they will go to that length, then any critical look at them will be dismised just as friviosuly, in which case, why not stick with the fact they are a faith healing cult? > its like a low level virus, for a long time it spreads and mutates until> eventually everyone is contaminated and it mutates again, and all hell> breaks loose. Well, that may be a little overboard, but maybe not. i dont think that is overboard at all, just look at how the steps ahe branched out into 100's of groups and infected the culture in general. and lets not forget the oxfod group which started this whole mess is still alive as the MRA. > Is a cult necessarily a religion? Is a religion necessarily a cult? I> think the answer is yes to both, but that's just me. But I think the first> amendment covers religion (and therefore AA) i dont think the first amendment would offer cover from a cult group unless it was relgious as aa is. i think you can seperate the two. cults can be organized along power, money etc. lines too. amway for example, scientolgy which claims to be a relgion, was always about profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 > Yeah, if you study, its apparent that AA is a cult. Its also apparent> that a lot of groups are mislabeled as cults. So has AA another dodge - " oh> we are one of the mislabeled cults " - " it's not possible for every> organization that's been called a cult to actually be a cult, so obviously> we were mislabeled " - they can say " compare us to a real cult. see we're> decent, not a cult " just bullshit, but its thick. well i can see how that would work for them, but if they will go to that length, then any critical look at them will be dismised just as friviosuly, in which case, why not stick with the fact they are a faith healing cult? > its like a low level virus, for a long time it spreads and mutates until> eventually everyone is contaminated and it mutates again, and all hell> breaks loose. Well, that may be a little overboard, but maybe not. i dont think that is overboard at all, just look at how the steps ahe branched out into 100's of groups and infected the culture in general. and lets not forget the oxfod group which started this whole mess is still alive as the MRA. > Is a cult necessarily a religion? Is a religion necessarily a cult? I> think the answer is yes to both, but that's just me. But I think the first> amendment covers religion (and therefore AA) i dont think the first amendment would offer cover from a cult group unless it was relgious as aa is. i think you can seperate the two. cults can be organized along power, money etc. lines too. amway for example, scientolgy which claims to be a relgion, was always about profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 > > That reminds me of Pete Watts - can't actually argue about something so > he resorts to name calling and making up shit. Mr Anonymous, I didnt answer what you wrote as I promised. I am perfectly capble of arguing Rand and made up nothing,as I amade perfectly clear. Ne Tech was Deave Hunter; Pupship left the list before you joiuned. You started out with being abusive " Brown nosing bureaucrats " so I declined to discuss the matter with you. I will refrain from saying anything more abusive about you or talking about you to others. It would be rather kind of you to do the same for me, and make this place less likely to be unpleasant for uconcerned parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 > > That reminds me of Pete Watts - can't actually argue about something so > he resorts to name calling and making up shit. Mr Anonymous, I didnt answer what you wrote as I promised. I am perfectly capble of arguing Rand and made up nothing,as I amade perfectly clear. Ne Tech was Deave Hunter; Pupship left the list before you joiuned. You started out with being abusive " Brown nosing bureaucrats " so I declined to discuss the matter with you. I will refrain from saying anything more abusive about you or talking about you to others. It would be rather kind of you to do the same for me, and make this place less likely to be unpleasant for uconcerned parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 > > That reminds me of Pete Watts - can't actually argue about something so > he resorts to name calling and making up shit. Mr Anonymous, I didnt answer what you wrote as I promised. I am perfectly capble of arguing Rand and made up nothing,as I amade perfectly clear. Ne Tech was Deave Hunter; Pupship left the list before you joiuned. You started out with being abusive " Brown nosing bureaucrats " so I declined to discuss the matter with you. I will refrain from saying anything more abusive about you or talking about you to others. It would be rather kind of you to do the same for me, and make this place less likely to be unpleasant for uconcerned parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 > > i dont think the first amendment would offer cover from a cult > group unless it was relgious as aa is. i think you can seperate > the two. cults can be organized along power, money etc. lines > too. amway for example, scientolgy which claims to be a relgion, > was always about profit. ------------------ Good point. But, Mein Gott, imagine if the government started coercing citizens into Amway!?! ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 hector, i understand that you know its a cult. i just disagree the word is over used. i think the word is misused and misunderstood. i wish it was used more! and i think those who use it ( my self for one) should explain what it means when they do, and make an effort to understand it, that way the problems you speak of with its use wont be a issue, or so i hope. -- In 12-step-free@y..., " Arroyo " <arroyoh@h...> wrote: > Dave; > > I'm not saying it's not a cult. I'm saying the word cult is overused. > > > Re: need more advice > > > >and although i understand your point ,now, i still disagree. for > >same reasons i disagree with the page i mentioned above. > >i think its a cop out. the word has meaning which is definite. > >because a group is ignorant as to what the meaning of word is, > >doesn't mean the word is wrongly applied to them. > > > >i think to not call AA what it is, allows them to win, and > >diminishes the truth about what they are, a faith healing cult. a > >cult which uses most of the techniques of manipulation and > >distortion typical in all destructive cults. maybe not to same > >extremes as the more notable and destructive ones, but it is > >because of that, which has allowed aa to survive as long as > >it has. if it was as destructive as heavens gate for example, they > >would have survived 60 years. > > I'm really not advocating not calling it what it is. I think for me > (although earlier I did say we should take a look at)that I'll be > concentrating on the religious nature of AA. Why? Well because I haven't > met a disinterested party that when shown the steps doesn't think of AA and > the 12 steps as religious faith based healing within seconds of reading it. > This contrary to the protestations of steppers. Once there a quick > introduction to coerced attendance and it's a short hop from there to " It > meets the objective criteria for being a cult. " Only " after " AA has been > shown to have lied about being spiritual as opposed to religious it's much > more likely the listener will not disregard it out of hand. > > >on the other hand, on the matter of coercion, that aa is a cult at > >all probably is irrelevant in regards to 1st amendment, in > >which case making the strong argument that AA is religious > >would be the strategy to take. > > True enough but showing that AA is religious immediately establishes that AA > lies about itself. From there it's a cake walk to the inevitable conclusion > that it's a cult or so close it doesn't make difference. > > > > > but aa has a ingrained , knee jerk defense on that too, which > >although pathetically weak when looked at objectively and > >historically, is just as futile to argue with a stepper as it is that is > >a cult. imho. > > I don't know about that. I think if you give a good enough argument you > make a difference with some. If you watch Usenet you see some come in > strong with their cliché arguments to the contrary and they usually quickly > fall by the wayside. I think a large percentage of those have re-evaluated > their position in AA. They may still be members but the seed has been > planted. I'm willing to bet any amount of money that 95% attrition rate is > actually higher now then it was several years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 hector, i understand that you know its a cult. i just disagree the word is over used. i think the word is misused and misunderstood. i wish it was used more! and i think those who use it ( my self for one) should explain what it means when they do, and make an effort to understand it, that way the problems you speak of with its use wont be a issue, or so i hope. -- In 12-step-free@y..., " Arroyo " <arroyoh@h...> wrote: > Dave; > > I'm not saying it's not a cult. I'm saying the word cult is overused. > > > Re: need more advice > > > >and although i understand your point ,now, i still disagree. for > >same reasons i disagree with the page i mentioned above. > >i think its a cop out. the word has meaning which is definite. > >because a group is ignorant as to what the meaning of word is, > >doesn't mean the word is wrongly applied to them. > > > >i think to not call AA what it is, allows them to win, and > >diminishes the truth about what they are, a faith healing cult. a > >cult which uses most of the techniques of manipulation and > >distortion typical in all destructive cults. maybe not to same > >extremes as the more notable and destructive ones, but it is > >because of that, which has allowed aa to survive as long as > >it has. if it was as destructive as heavens gate for example, they > >would have survived 60 years. > > I'm really not advocating not calling it what it is. I think for me > (although earlier I did say we should take a look at)that I'll be > concentrating on the religious nature of AA. Why? Well because I haven't > met a disinterested party that when shown the steps doesn't think of AA and > the 12 steps as religious faith based healing within seconds of reading it. > This contrary to the protestations of steppers. Once there a quick > introduction to coerced attendance and it's a short hop from there to " It > meets the objective criteria for being a cult. " Only " after " AA has been > shown to have lied about being spiritual as opposed to religious it's much > more likely the listener will not disregard it out of hand. > > >on the other hand, on the matter of coercion, that aa is a cult at > >all probably is irrelevant in regards to 1st amendment, in > >which case making the strong argument that AA is religious > >would be the strategy to take. > > True enough but showing that AA is religious immediately establishes that AA > lies about itself. From there it's a cake walk to the inevitable conclusion > that it's a cult or so close it doesn't make difference. > > > > > but aa has a ingrained , knee jerk defense on that too, which > >although pathetically weak when looked at objectively and > >historically, is just as futile to argue with a stepper as it is that is > >a cult. imho. > > I don't know about that. I think if you give a good enough argument you > make a difference with some. If you watch Usenet you see some come in > strong with their cliché arguments to the contrary and they usually quickly > fall by the wayside. I think a large percentage of those have re-evaluated > their position in AA. They may still be members but the seed has been > planted. I'm willing to bet any amount of money that 95% attrition rate is > actually higher now then it was several years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 hector, i understand that you know its a cult. i just disagree the word is over used. i think the word is misused and misunderstood. i wish it was used more! and i think those who use it ( my self for one) should explain what it means when they do, and make an effort to understand it, that way the problems you speak of with its use wont be a issue, or so i hope. -- In 12-step-free@y..., " Arroyo " <arroyoh@h...> wrote: > Dave; > > I'm not saying it's not a cult. I'm saying the word cult is overused. > > > Re: need more advice > > > >and although i understand your point ,now, i still disagree. for > >same reasons i disagree with the page i mentioned above. > >i think its a cop out. the word has meaning which is definite. > >because a group is ignorant as to what the meaning of word is, > >doesn't mean the word is wrongly applied to them. > > > >i think to not call AA what it is, allows them to win, and > >diminishes the truth about what they are, a faith healing cult. a > >cult which uses most of the techniques of manipulation and > >distortion typical in all destructive cults. maybe not to same > >extremes as the more notable and destructive ones, but it is > >because of that, which has allowed aa to survive as long as > >it has. if it was as destructive as heavens gate for example, they > >would have survived 60 years. > > I'm really not advocating not calling it what it is. I think for me > (although earlier I did say we should take a look at)that I'll be > concentrating on the religious nature of AA. Why? Well because I haven't > met a disinterested party that when shown the steps doesn't think of AA and > the 12 steps as religious faith based healing within seconds of reading it. > This contrary to the protestations of steppers. Once there a quick > introduction to coerced attendance and it's a short hop from there to " It > meets the objective criteria for being a cult. " Only " after " AA has been > shown to have lied about being spiritual as opposed to religious it's much > more likely the listener will not disregard it out of hand. > > >on the other hand, on the matter of coercion, that aa is a cult at > >all probably is irrelevant in regards to 1st amendment, in > >which case making the strong argument that AA is religious > >would be the strategy to take. > > True enough but showing that AA is religious immediately establishes that AA > lies about itself. From there it's a cake walk to the inevitable conclusion > that it's a cult or so close it doesn't make difference. > > > > > but aa has a ingrained , knee jerk defense on that too, which > >although pathetically weak when looked at objectively and > >historically, is just as futile to argue with a stepper as it is that is > >a cult. imho. > > I don't know about that. I think if you give a good enough argument you > make a difference with some. If you watch Usenet you see some come in > strong with their cliché arguments to the contrary and they usually quickly > fall by the wayside. I think a large percentage of those have re-evaluated > their position in AA. They may still be members but the seed has been > planted. I'm willing to bet any amount of money that 95% attrition rate is > actually higher now then it was several years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 > Hi Ben > > There is a Xtian Minister on the freedomofmind group who has an > anti-cults page. Apparently the Big Names in Xtianity, Catholic, > Episcopalian, etc., basically have drawn up a kind of " Industry > Standard " of what is real " Biblical " Xtianity that you must stick > to for them to accept as being a legitimate Xtian Church, and they > call anything a cult, however benevolent to its members, that doesnt > comply with the standard. > > P. Who, Anton? He's a pretty sharp guy for someone who excorcises demons;-) Btw, he does not consider Catholics to be real Christians (according to his cult/apologetics web site). Perhaps I shouldn't be, but I am amazed at how popular AA is with the clergy, especially Catholics. If anything it's a Christian heresy! You got to hand it to that Bill character--he was a good salesman. My guess is that AA appeals to their guild loyalty and is sufficiently non-threatening to their febile minds. Remember the story about the RC priest who proseletized, not for the church, but for AA! Unreal... Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 > Hi Ben > > There is a Xtian Minister on the freedomofmind group who has an > anti-cults page. Apparently the Big Names in Xtianity, Catholic, > Episcopalian, etc., basically have drawn up a kind of " Industry > Standard " of what is real " Biblical " Xtianity that you must stick > to for them to accept as being a legitimate Xtian Church, and they > call anything a cult, however benevolent to its members, that doesnt > comply with the standard. > > P. Who, Anton? He's a pretty sharp guy for someone who excorcises demons;-) Btw, he does not consider Catholics to be real Christians (according to his cult/apologetics web site). Perhaps I shouldn't be, but I am amazed at how popular AA is with the clergy, especially Catholics. If anything it's a Christian heresy! You got to hand it to that Bill character--he was a good salesman. My guess is that AA appeals to their guild loyalty and is sufficiently non-threatening to their febile minds. Remember the story about the RC priest who proseletized, not for the church, but for AA! Unreal... Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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