Re: RR/AA

[Guest guest]

At 02:40 AM 2/7/01 -0600, dixie@... wrote:

>I got sober in AA

>>at age 30, but after two years I wanted to do something more than go to

>>meetings every day and take the steps the rest of my life, and when I

>>tried to do anything else it felt like I was in a straight jacket.

>

>Ben,

>Could you explain what you mean by it felt like you were in a straight

>jacket? I would think that after 2 years of sobriety, you wouldn't need

>constant meetings, certainly not every day. Most alcoholics I know who

>*have* benefitted from AA stop going after a while, or they attend only

>rarely, like 2 or 3 times a year (of course we all know the people who've

>been going to AA regularly for 15 years.) Can you say why you felt you had

>to go every day, and why you felt you were in a straight jacket if you

>tried anything else?

>Dixie

I believed almost totally in AA for my first two years - I had been

going to to meetings daily and I felt guilty if I skipped a meeting just

once a week so I could do something for myself. I had no compulsion or

desire to drink since my first few months after quitting, but I certainly

did not believe I could stay sober if I only went to two or three meetings

per year.

It was between two and three years in AA that I started questioning my

beliefs (In God [i was an atheist before AA], in the steps, in various

other parts of AA dogma), saw more clearly some of the inconsistencies

in the literature, and I started reading " outside literature " . It was over

the next several years that I found and read books such as " Many Roads,

One Journey " and " AA: Cult or Cure? "

It was about three and a half years in AA when I found SOS and

attended my first meeting. My feelings were perhaps like a priest

visiting a whore house for the first time. It was exciting that these

people, " alcoholics " and mostly professed atheists, were in a meeting

where they were sober, whereas AA had always pounded in my mind that

" you gotta have a GOD to stay sober " and the existence of this meeting

was proving the lie to that. Two of these people had started the

meeting the year I got sober, so they had the same amount of time without

a drink as I did. It felt liberating and satisfying (not in THAT way,

but it was a powerful feeling for me), yet I had this nagging fear that

God was going to strike me down for going there.

I didn't go back to SOS very often in those early years - I still

believed too much of AA, though it became obvious to me (and a few

of the more 'liberal' friends I had in AA) that I was more and more

the most heretical person in most any meeting I went to. And a few

years later when I no longer " believed " in either AA or God, AA was

my only social outlet other than work. I've always had bad social

skills, and the only thing AA did for this was tell me to go to AA

meetings (which are filled with others who have bad social skills

and/or are very controlling).

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 02:40 AM 2/7/01 -0600, dixie@... wrote:

>I got sober in AA

>>at age 30, but after two years I wanted to do something more than go to

>>meetings every day and take the steps the rest of my life, and when I

>>tried to do anything else it felt like I was in a straight jacket.

>

>Ben,

>Could you explain what you mean by it felt like you were in a straight

>jacket? I would think that after 2 years of sobriety, you wouldn't need

>constant meetings, certainly not every day. Most alcoholics I know who

>*have* benefitted from AA stop going after a while, or they attend only

>rarely, like 2 or 3 times a year (of course we all know the people who've

>been going to AA regularly for 15 years.) Can you say why you felt you had

>to go every day, and why you felt you were in a straight jacket if you

>tried anything else?

>Dixie

I believed almost totally in AA for my first two years - I had been

going to to meetings daily and I felt guilty if I skipped a meeting just

once a week so I could do something for myself. I had no compulsion or

desire to drink since my first few months after quitting, but I certainly

did not believe I could stay sober if I only went to two or three meetings

per year.

It was between two and three years in AA that I started questioning my

beliefs (In God [i was an atheist before AA], in the steps, in various

other parts of AA dogma), saw more clearly some of the inconsistencies

in the literature, and I started reading " outside literature " . It was over

the next several years that I found and read books such as " Many Roads,

One Journey " and " AA: Cult or Cure? "

It was about three and a half years in AA when I found SOS and

attended my first meeting. My feelings were perhaps like a priest

visiting a whore house for the first time. It was exciting that these

people, " alcoholics " and mostly professed atheists, were in a meeting

where they were sober, whereas AA had always pounded in my mind that

" you gotta have a GOD to stay sober " and the existence of this meeting

was proving the lie to that. Two of these people had started the

meeting the year I got sober, so they had the same amount of time without

a drink as I did. It felt liberating and satisfying (not in THAT way,

but it was a powerful feeling for me), yet I had this nagging fear that

God was going to strike me down for going there.

I didn't go back to SOS very often in those early years - I still

believed too much of AA, though it became obvious to me (and a few

of the more 'liberal' friends I had in AA) that I was more and more

the most heretical person in most any meeting I went to. And a few

years later when I no longer " believed " in either AA or God, AA was

my only social outlet other than work. I've always had bad social

skills, and the only thing AA did for this was tell me to go to AA

meetings (which are filled with others who have bad social skills

and/or are very controlling).

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 02:40 AM 2/7/01 -0600, dixie@... wrote:

>I got sober in AA

>>at age 30, but after two years I wanted to do something more than go to

>>meetings every day and take the steps the rest of my life, and when I

>>tried to do anything else it felt like I was in a straight jacket.

>

>Ben,

>Could you explain what you mean by it felt like you were in a straight

>jacket? I would think that after 2 years of sobriety, you wouldn't need

>constant meetings, certainly not every day. Most alcoholics I know who

>*have* benefitted from AA stop going after a while, or they attend only

>rarely, like 2 or 3 times a year (of course we all know the people who've

>been going to AA regularly for 15 years.) Can you say why you felt you had

>to go every day, and why you felt you were in a straight jacket if you

>tried anything else?

>Dixie

I believed almost totally in AA for my first two years - I had been

going to to meetings daily and I felt guilty if I skipped a meeting just

once a week so I could do something for myself. I had no compulsion or

desire to drink since my first few months after quitting, but I certainly

did not believe I could stay sober if I only went to two or three meetings

per year.

It was between two and three years in AA that I started questioning my

beliefs (In God [i was an atheist before AA], in the steps, in various

other parts of AA dogma), saw more clearly some of the inconsistencies

in the literature, and I started reading " outside literature " . It was over

the next several years that I found and read books such as " Many Roads,

One Journey " and " AA: Cult or Cure? "

It was about three and a half years in AA when I found SOS and

attended my first meeting. My feelings were perhaps like a priest

visiting a whore house for the first time. It was exciting that these

people, " alcoholics " and mostly professed atheists, were in a meeting

where they were sober, whereas AA had always pounded in my mind that

" you gotta have a GOD to stay sober " and the existence of this meeting

was proving the lie to that. Two of these people had started the

meeting the year I got sober, so they had the same amount of time without

a drink as I did. It felt liberating and satisfying (not in THAT way,

but it was a powerful feeling for me), yet I had this nagging fear that

God was going to strike me down for going there.

I didn't go back to SOS very often in those early years - I still

believed too much of AA, though it became obvious to me (and a few

of the more 'liberal' friends I had in AA) that I was more and more

the most heretical person in most any meeting I went to. And a few

years later when I no longer " believed " in either AA or God, AA was

my only social outlet other than work. I've always had bad social

skills, and the only thing AA did for this was tell me to go to AA

meetings (which are filled with others who have bad social skills

and/or are very controlling).

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

I don't know if I would recommend using drugs to suppress your urges to

drink. I do have a couple insights of my own that came to mind when I read

your post. I am mostly thinking that you have a little AA programming to

deal with or American society programming to deal with. The urges can be

either physical and mental or just mental. A lot of times mental urges come

from what we've learned (been programmed or conditioned to believe). It's a

very prevalent thought in America and especialy in AA that people can not

control themselves when it comes to alcohol. And if you have been called or

thought of yourself as an alcoholic, then the chances you believe that you

can't help yourself are significantly increased.

In fact, if you think of yourself as an alcoholic or alcohol dependent,

then the urges are going to be much stronger than if you convince yourself

otherwise. SO remember this... no human being truly requires alcohol to

function or live, including you. If you read various definitions of the

word alcoholic, you will find several different meanings depending on the

source. AA is the only source I know that claims alcoholism is a disease.

And that is wrong, there is no proof of that. So, you don't have a disease.

That's a plus.

A very simple definition of alcoholism is a person who drinks too much

and has bad things (like health problems, legal problems or relationship

problems) happen. Now that is pretty believable - I think most in this

group would fit that and accept that definition. But nowhere in the

definition does it say that it is a disease or that you can't recover from

it. The fact is millions, maybe even most people have been alcoholic at

some point in there life and have recovered from it! It is possible to

moderate your drinking. People can and do abstain or moderate. Usually

people abstain for a while before moderating, giving themselves time to put

all the pieces together. A lot of problem drinkers do see the problem and

cut down on their drinking successfully, by stopping evaluating and working

on the problems that caused the abusive drinking. SO, a lot of people who

have been alcoholic have gotten their lives together - and they are not

alcoholic anymore - it is not permanent. And you can, too.

One bad thing AA has caused is the " special " alcoholic person. While AA

says that no alcoholic is special, they lie. They say that all alcoholics

have the same problems and feelings and even urges because of alcohol. Well

that is BS, but AA does make people feel special in a way, simply because

they can call themselves alcoholic, while normal, the opposite of special is

non-alcoholic. Actually, I think people who've believed in AA (even partly)

think alcoholics are special (different from normal people) and unique and

they let this become a part of their identity. A lot of people attach a

false sense of being special to the belief they are alcoholic.

Again, above I said you would have less urges if you convince yourself

that your not an alcoholic in the AA sense of the word. So if you do not

accept that you can not control yourself, you will have an easier time

controlling yourself. And if being an alcoholic is a par of your identity,

then you must change that too, and that will help reduce your urges

significantly. An alcoholic is not a special person. An alcoholic is a

regular person. You are a regular person with all the great things that

make you you, but being an alcoholic isn't one of those great things.

Alcoholic isn't even part of who you are. If you are sick with the flu, do

you call youself a flu victim? Do you go to meetings and say my name is

GrahJAG and I've got the flu! I don't think so. Being sick is not a part

of who you are. Being sick is just being sick. Most of us want to stop

being sick as quickly as possible. So maybe you were sick yesterday, but

you aren't today, and hopefully you won't catch that bug again for a really

long time - if you take good care of your self, you probably never will

catch it again. SO, you were alcoholic yesterday, but you are feeling

better today, and hopefully you won't be alcoholic again for a long time -

if you take good care of your self, you probably never will be alcoholic

again!

You had a head cold, but I think you beat it! Just read this again twice

a day for a week. You'll be all right.

Re: RR/AA

>

>

> >

> > I read RR and was trying to implement it in my life.

> > Well I ended up drinking. I know AA doesnt work for me but I m worried

> > because it seems nothing does. What I dont buy about RR is: nutrition

doesnt

> > matter,

> >

> ------------

>

> I agree, it's another of my criticisms of Trimpey -- he has no

interest in health or nutrition issues and in fact scorns approaches that

are. One book I found quite interesting and helpful was " How to Stop

Drinking Without AA " by Jerry Dorsman. It begins with a list of health and

emotional questionnaires designed to get you to be more self-aware of your

emotional and bodily reactions not only to alcohol (and in different amounts

and settings), but reactions to sugar, various foods, etc. Dorsman is a big

believer in viewing severely cutting down or quitting drinking as part of a

larger continuum of improving health by eating better, exercising, and

generally taking better care of your body. And he encourages you to

continually note your physical and emotional reactions to various diet and

other changes as you make them. Therefore there is no one-size-fits-all,

everyone's body reacts differently.

>

>

> >

> > Why would I drink again? Its like I cant stop myself once I feel that

> > intense urge to drink. Im confuseed though because I dont buy the whole

AA

> > concept that im just selfish and self-centered. I know better than to

drink

> > but why cant I stop? I blackout ive lost my license for 4 years, I

almost

> > got kicked out of my apt for turning the music so loud I want to quit

but I

> > cant seem to.

>

> ----------------

>

> Please consider finding a doctor who is knowledgeable about Revia

(naltrexone). It is a medication taken for a short period of time (six

months maybe) which has had good results in combatting cravings among people

who have the reaction to alcohol that you describe. It's not a magic pill

and doesn't work all by itself, but research shows it can be really

physically helpful in situations such as yours, especially when combined

with non-judgmental counseling.

>

> The doctor who has pioneered the use of naltrexone for overcoming

alcohol dependency is ph Volpicelli, M.D. of the University of

Pennsylvania. If you like, I get find out his e-mail address, maybe he can

recommend a physician in your area who is familiar with this.

>

> ~Rita

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know if I would recommend using drugs to suppress your urges to

drink. I do have a couple insights of my own that came to mind when I read

your post. I am mostly thinking that you have a little AA programming to

deal with or American society programming to deal with. The urges can be

either physical and mental or just mental. A lot of times mental urges come

from what we've learned (been programmed or conditioned to believe). It's a

very prevalent thought in America and especialy in AA that people can not

control themselves when it comes to alcohol. And if you have been called or

thought of yourself as an alcoholic, then the chances you believe that you

can't help yourself are significantly increased.

In fact, if you think of yourself as an alcoholic or alcohol dependent,

then the urges are going to be much stronger than if you convince yourself

otherwise. SO remember this... no human being truly requires alcohol to

function or live, including you. If you read various definitions of the

word alcoholic, you will find several different meanings depending on the

source. AA is the only source I know that claims alcoholism is a disease.

And that is wrong, there is no proof of that. So, you don't have a disease.

That's a plus.

A very simple definition of alcoholism is a person who drinks too much

and has bad things (like health problems, legal problems or relationship

problems) happen. Now that is pretty believable - I think most in this

group would fit that and accept that definition. But nowhere in the

definition does it say that it is a disease or that you can't recover from

it. The fact is millions, maybe even most people have been alcoholic at

some point in there life and have recovered from it! It is possible to

moderate your drinking. People can and do abstain or moderate. Usually

people abstain for a while before moderating, giving themselves time to put

all the pieces together. A lot of problem drinkers do see the problem and

cut down on their drinking successfully, by stopping evaluating and working

on the problems that caused the abusive drinking. SO, a lot of people who

have been alcoholic have gotten their lives together - and they are not

alcoholic anymore - it is not permanent. And you can, too.

One bad thing AA has caused is the " special " alcoholic person. While AA

says that no alcoholic is special, they lie. They say that all alcoholics

have the same problems and feelings and even urges because of alcohol. Well

that is BS, but AA does make people feel special in a way, simply because

they can call themselves alcoholic, while normal, the opposite of special is

non-alcoholic. Actually, I think people who've believed in AA (even partly)

think alcoholics are special (different from normal people) and unique and

they let this become a part of their identity. A lot of people attach a

false sense of being special to the belief they are alcoholic.

Again, above I said you would have less urges if you convince yourself

that your not an alcoholic in the AA sense of the word. So if you do not

accept that you can not control yourself, you will have an easier time

controlling yourself. And if being an alcoholic is a par of your identity,

then you must change that too, and that will help reduce your urges

significantly. An alcoholic is not a special person. An alcoholic is a

regular person. You are a regular person with all the great things that

make you you, but being an alcoholic isn't one of those great things.

Alcoholic isn't even part of who you are. If you are sick with the flu, do

you call youself a flu victim? Do you go to meetings and say my name is

GrahJAG and I've got the flu! I don't think so. Being sick is not a part

of who you are. Being sick is just being sick. Most of us want to stop

being sick as quickly as possible. So maybe you were sick yesterday, but

you aren't today, and hopefully you won't catch that bug again for a really

long time - if you take good care of your self, you probably never will

catch it again. SO, you were alcoholic yesterday, but you are feeling

better today, and hopefully you won't be alcoholic again for a long time -

if you take good care of your self, you probably never will be alcoholic

again!

You had a head cold, but I think you beat it! Just read this again twice

a day for a week. You'll be all right.

Re: RR/AA

>

>

> >

> > I read RR and was trying to implement it in my life.

> > Well I ended up drinking. I know AA doesnt work for me but I m worried

> > because it seems nothing does. What I dont buy about RR is: nutrition

doesnt

> > matter,

> >

> ------------

>

> I agree, it's another of my criticisms of Trimpey -- he has no

interest in health or nutrition issues and in fact scorns approaches that

are. One book I found quite interesting and helpful was " How to Stop

Drinking Without AA " by Jerry Dorsman. It begins with a list of health and

emotional questionnaires designed to get you to be more self-aware of your

emotional and bodily reactions not only to alcohol (and in different amounts

and settings), but reactions to sugar, various foods, etc. Dorsman is a big

believer in viewing severely cutting down or quitting drinking as part of a

larger continuum of improving health by eating better, exercising, and

generally taking better care of your body. And he encourages you to

continually note your physical and emotional reactions to various diet and

other changes as you make them. Therefore there is no one-size-fits-all,

everyone's body reacts differently.

>

>

> >

> > Why would I drink again? Its like I cant stop myself once I feel that

> > intense urge to drink. Im confuseed though because I dont buy the whole

AA

> > concept that im just selfish and self-centered. I know better than to

drink

> > but why cant I stop? I blackout ive lost my license for 4 years, I

almost

> > got kicked out of my apt for turning the music so loud I want to quit

but I

> > cant seem to.

>

> ----------------

>

> Please consider finding a doctor who is knowledgeable about Revia

(naltrexone). It is a medication taken for a short period of time (six

months maybe) which has had good results in combatting cravings among people

who have the reaction to alcohol that you describe. It's not a magic pill

and doesn't work all by itself, but research shows it can be really

physically helpful in situations such as yours, especially when combined

with non-judgmental counseling.

>

> The doctor who has pioneered the use of naltrexone for overcoming

alcohol dependency is ph Volpicelli, M.D. of the University of

Pennsylvania. If you like, I get find out his e-mail address, maybe he can

recommend a physician in your area who is familiar with this.

>

> ~Rita

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know if I would recommend using drugs to suppress your urges to

drink. I do have a couple insights of my own that came to mind when I read

your post. I am mostly thinking that you have a little AA programming to

deal with or American society programming to deal with. The urges can be

either physical and mental or just mental. A lot of times mental urges come

from what we've learned (been programmed or conditioned to believe). It's a

very prevalent thought in America and especialy in AA that people can not

control themselves when it comes to alcohol. And if you have been called or

thought of yourself as an alcoholic, then the chances you believe that you

can't help yourself are significantly increased.

In fact, if you think of yourself as an alcoholic or alcohol dependent,

then the urges are going to be much stronger than if you convince yourself

otherwise. SO remember this... no human being truly requires alcohol to

function or live, including you. If you read various definitions of the

word alcoholic, you will find several different meanings depending on the

source. AA is the only source I know that claims alcoholism is a disease.

And that is wrong, there is no proof of that. So, you don't have a disease.

That's a plus.

A very simple definition of alcoholism is a person who drinks too much

and has bad things (like health problems, legal problems or relationship

problems) happen. Now that is pretty believable - I think most in this

group would fit that and accept that definition. But nowhere in the

definition does it say that it is a disease or that you can't recover from

it. The fact is millions, maybe even most people have been alcoholic at

some point in there life and have recovered from it! It is possible to

moderate your drinking. People can and do abstain or moderate. Usually

people abstain for a while before moderating, giving themselves time to put

all the pieces together. A lot of problem drinkers do see the problem and

cut down on their drinking successfully, by stopping evaluating and working

on the problems that caused the abusive drinking. SO, a lot of people who

have been alcoholic have gotten their lives together - and they are not

alcoholic anymore - it is not permanent. And you can, too.

One bad thing AA has caused is the " special " alcoholic person. While AA

says that no alcoholic is special, they lie. They say that all alcoholics

have the same problems and feelings and even urges because of alcohol. Well

that is BS, but AA does make people feel special in a way, simply because

they can call themselves alcoholic, while normal, the opposite of special is

non-alcoholic. Actually, I think people who've believed in AA (even partly)

think alcoholics are special (different from normal people) and unique and

they let this become a part of their identity. A lot of people attach a

false sense of being special to the belief they are alcoholic.

Again, above I said you would have less urges if you convince yourself

that your not an alcoholic in the AA sense of the word. So if you do not

accept that you can not control yourself, you will have an easier time

controlling yourself. And if being an alcoholic is a par of your identity,

then you must change that too, and that will help reduce your urges

significantly. An alcoholic is not a special person. An alcoholic is a

regular person. You are a regular person with all the great things that

make you you, but being an alcoholic isn't one of those great things.

Alcoholic isn't even part of who you are. If you are sick with the flu, do

you call youself a flu victim? Do you go to meetings and say my name is

GrahJAG and I've got the flu! I don't think so. Being sick is not a part

of who you are. Being sick is just being sick. Most of us want to stop

being sick as quickly as possible. So maybe you were sick yesterday, but

you aren't today, and hopefully you won't catch that bug again for a really

long time - if you take good care of your self, you probably never will

catch it again. SO, you were alcoholic yesterday, but you are feeling

better today, and hopefully you won't be alcoholic again for a long time -

if you take good care of your self, you probably never will be alcoholic

again!

You had a head cold, but I think you beat it! Just read this again twice

a day for a week. You'll be all right.

Re: RR/AA

>

>

> >

> > I read RR and was trying to implement it in my life.

> > Well I ended up drinking. I know AA doesnt work for me but I m worried

> > because it seems nothing does. What I dont buy about RR is: nutrition

doesnt

> > matter,

> >

> ------------

>

> I agree, it's another of my criticisms of Trimpey -- he has no

interest in health or nutrition issues and in fact scorns approaches that

are. One book I found quite interesting and helpful was " How to Stop

Drinking Without AA " by Jerry Dorsman. It begins with a list of health and

emotional questionnaires designed to get you to be more self-aware of your

emotional and bodily reactions not only to alcohol (and in different amounts

and settings), but reactions to sugar, various foods, etc. Dorsman is a big

believer in viewing severely cutting down or quitting drinking as part of a

larger continuum of improving health by eating better, exercising, and

generally taking better care of your body. And he encourages you to

continually note your physical and emotional reactions to various diet and

other changes as you make them. Therefore there is no one-size-fits-all,

everyone's body reacts differently.

>

>

> >

> > Why would I drink again? Its like I cant stop myself once I feel that

> > intense urge to drink. Im confuseed though because I dont buy the whole

AA

> > concept that im just selfish and self-centered. I know better than to

drink

> > but why cant I stop? I blackout ive lost my license for 4 years, I

almost

> > got kicked out of my apt for turning the music so loud I want to quit

but I

> > cant seem to.

>

> ----------------

>

> Please consider finding a doctor who is knowledgeable about Revia

(naltrexone). It is a medication taken for a short period of time (six

months maybe) which has had good results in combatting cravings among people

who have the reaction to alcohol that you describe. It's not a magic pill

and doesn't work all by itself, but research shows it can be really

physically helpful in situations such as yours, especially when combined

with non-judgmental counseling.

>

> The doctor who has pioneered the use of naltrexone for overcoming

alcohol dependency is ph Volpicelli, M.D. of the University of

Pennsylvania. If you like, I get find out his e-mail address, maybe he can

recommend a physician in your area who is familiar with this.

>

> ~Rita

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello, Thanks for the info Rita. I did try to get the medication to help with the craving but my insurance said only if I am in a Tx center.

In response to Dave i have had long-term sobriety in the past. When I was 19 I stayed sober for 3 years and then when I was 24 I stayed sober for 1 year.

Im 26 now and cant seem to get more than 30 days.

Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my life I want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out, eating better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you can handle it, then Im in another mess.

I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but why do I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out w/it.

thnks for the input

[Guest guest]

Hey,

I really appreciate what your saying. I do think that in our own minds we create our reality, meaning if I believe I will get drunk and get in trouble I probably will. So I do believe their is some truth to that.

And yes I have a lot of deprogramming to do reguarding AA. I was in and out of that program for 7 years of so. Im fact this last time I drank I called about 6 people from AA. At this piont they dont want to talk to me because "Im just not willing" yeah willing to be controlled. Anyway, I see a therapist and she is so cool. I saw her today and she fees that I keep drinking because, 1.Its a cheap way to have fun (sometimes I do have fun) 2.Its what I know to do when Im under stress.

3.Im trying to change a lot about my life right now and change is scary, drinking is something that feels comfortable to me.

Its been hard for me because Im so used of having a sponser or Tx counselor telling me what to do. Again, my therapist feels Ive been institutionalized I have been in 9 Tx centers. Its hard but I hope I quit for good this time.

[Guest guest]

Hey,

I really appreciate what your saying. I do think that in our own minds we create our reality, meaning if I believe I will get drunk and get in trouble I probably will. So I do believe their is some truth to that.

And yes I have a lot of deprogramming to do reguarding AA. I was in and out of that program for 7 years of so. Im fact this last time I drank I called about 6 people from AA. At this piont they dont want to talk to me because "Im just not willing" yeah willing to be controlled. Anyway, I see a therapist and she is so cool. I saw her today and she fees that I keep drinking because, 1.Its a cheap way to have fun (sometimes I do have fun) 2.Its what I know to do when Im under stress.

3.Im trying to change a lot about my life right now and change is scary, drinking is something that feels comfortable to me.

Its been hard for me because Im so used of having a sponser or Tx counselor telling me what to do. Again, my therapist feels Ive been institutionalized I have been in 9 Tx centers. Its hard but I hope I quit for good this time.

[Guest guest]

Hey,

I really appreciate what your saying. I do think that in our own minds we create our reality, meaning if I believe I will get drunk and get in trouble I probably will. So I do believe their is some truth to that.

And yes I have a lot of deprogramming to do reguarding AA. I was in and out of that program for 7 years of so. Im fact this last time I drank I called about 6 people from AA. At this piont they dont want to talk to me because "Im just not willing" yeah willing to be controlled. Anyway, I see a therapist and she is so cool. I saw her today and she fees that I keep drinking because, 1.Its a cheap way to have fun (sometimes I do have fun) 2.Its what I know to do when Im under stress.

3.Im trying to change a lot about my life right now and change is scary, drinking is something that feels comfortable to me.

Its been hard for me because Im so used of having a sponser or Tx counselor telling me what to do. Again, my therapist feels Ive been institutionalized I have been in 9 Tx centers. Its hard but I hope I quit for good this time.

[Guest guest]

---

i found when i quit that vitamin b did help me. apparently when

you drink, the alcohol damages the

the nervous system, the vitamin is supposed to help with that.

i personally think the most important factor is motivation, wanting

something better for yourself, and taking care of yourself, doing

what is best for your well being. you can achieve that if you stop

drinking.

but i know how hard those urges are to fight. i wish i had some

good advise for that, other than the vitamin b, (b12 i think) .

i know words cannot describe what it is like. i think everyone can

get thru that somehow.

---

Jim:

This is *so* important, probably more important than any method,

ideology, or support group. It's hard for serious drinkers and

druggies to be healthy, even if they manage to exercise and take care

of themselves. I was into mega vitamins and suppliments as I drank my

way through my twenties and thirties. I used to *force* myself not to

drink untill I had finished running three miles or playing five sets

of tennis. I would then go home, reward myself, and make up for lost

time.

I was a solitary drinker. It was impossible to drink like I did in

public! Too embarassing--and expensive. I put the liquor store

owner's children through college;-) I don't think that I would be

alive today had it not been for the exercise and suppliments. It all

caught up with me after many years--I could no longer force myself to

excercise. The one spell where I *did* manage to drink moderately was

the result of intensive Tai Kwon Do training. When work took me away

from Tai Kwon Do, I fell back into my old habits. Along the way, I

deluded myself into better living through chemistry. Vitamin K and

antidepressants--Goodbye Booze! They *really* screwed me up. I then

had a serious addiction to prescription drugs that made the drinking

child's play by comparison.

When I don't drink and smoke, I can excercise, eat well and I don't

really need anything else. In the past I could cheat death--no more.

Dave, The B Vitamins are important. Use a good " B-50 " formula. This

will give one a balanced formula. Never take individual B vitamins--

they should be taken together in the proper ratio. Vitamins C and E

are probably the most important. I always took large mega doses, but

you

shouldn't do this unless you know what you are doing. Magnesium is

excellent, but should be balanced with Calcium. Zinc (never more than

50mg/day) is good to. *Never* take large doses of minerals if you

don't know what you are doing. Ditto for A and D.

I'm starting to digress here. I think healthy lifestyle changes and

outdoor activities are a good bet as a substitute for the drug of

choice.

Jim

[Guest guest]

---

i found when i quit that vitamin b did help me. apparently when

you drink, the alcohol damages the

the nervous system, the vitamin is supposed to help with that.

i personally think the most important factor is motivation, wanting

something better for yourself, and taking care of yourself, doing

what is best for your well being. you can achieve that if you stop

drinking.

but i know how hard those urges are to fight. i wish i had some

good advise for that, other than the vitamin b, (b12 i think) .

i know words cannot describe what it is like. i think everyone can

get thru that somehow.

---

Jim:

This is *so* important, probably more important than any method,

ideology, or support group. It's hard for serious drinkers and

druggies to be healthy, even if they manage to exercise and take care

of themselves. I was into mega vitamins and suppliments as I drank my

way through my twenties and thirties. I used to *force* myself not to

drink untill I had finished running three miles or playing five sets

of tennis. I would then go home, reward myself, and make up for lost

time.

I was a solitary drinker. It was impossible to drink like I did in

public! Too embarassing--and expensive. I put the liquor store

owner's children through college;-) I don't think that I would be

alive today had it not been for the exercise and suppliments. It all

caught up with me after many years--I could no longer force myself to

excercise. The one spell where I *did* manage to drink moderately was

the result of intensive Tai Kwon Do training. When work took me away

from Tai Kwon Do, I fell back into my old habits. Along the way, I

deluded myself into better living through chemistry. Vitamin K and

antidepressants--Goodbye Booze! They *really* screwed me up. I then

had a serious addiction to prescription drugs that made the drinking

child's play by comparison.

When I don't drink and smoke, I can excercise, eat well and I don't

really need anything else. In the past I could cheat death--no more.

Dave, The B Vitamins are important. Use a good " B-50 " formula. This

will give one a balanced formula. Never take individual B vitamins--

they should be taken together in the proper ratio. Vitamins C and E

are probably the most important. I always took large mega doses, but

you

shouldn't do this unless you know what you are doing. Magnesium is

excellent, but should be balanced with Calcium. Zinc (never more than

50mg/day) is good to. *Never* take large doses of minerals if you

don't know what you are doing. Ditto for A and D.

I'm starting to digress here. I think healthy lifestyle changes and

outdoor activities are a good bet as a substitute for the drug of

choice.

Jim

[Guest guest]

---

i found when i quit that vitamin b did help me. apparently when

you drink, the alcohol damages the

the nervous system, the vitamin is supposed to help with that.

i personally think the most important factor is motivation, wanting

something better for yourself, and taking care of yourself, doing

what is best for your well being. you can achieve that if you stop

drinking.

but i know how hard those urges are to fight. i wish i had some

good advise for that, other than the vitamin b, (b12 i think) .

i know words cannot describe what it is like. i think everyone can

get thru that somehow.

---

Jim:

This is *so* important, probably more important than any method,

ideology, or support group. It's hard for serious drinkers and

druggies to be healthy, even if they manage to exercise and take care

of themselves. I was into mega vitamins and suppliments as I drank my

way through my twenties and thirties. I used to *force* myself not to

drink untill I had finished running three miles or playing five sets

of tennis. I would then go home, reward myself, and make up for lost

time.

I was a solitary drinker. It was impossible to drink like I did in

public! Too embarassing--and expensive. I put the liquor store

owner's children through college;-) I don't think that I would be

alive today had it not been for the exercise and suppliments. It all

caught up with me after many years--I could no longer force myself to

excercise. The one spell where I *did* manage to drink moderately was

the result of intensive Tai Kwon Do training. When work took me away

from Tai Kwon Do, I fell back into my old habits. Along the way, I

deluded myself into better living through chemistry. Vitamin K and

antidepressants--Goodbye Booze! They *really* screwed me up. I then

had a serious addiction to prescription drugs that made the drinking

child's play by comparison.

When I don't drink and smoke, I can excercise, eat well and I don't

really need anything else. In the past I could cheat death--no more.

Dave, The B Vitamins are important. Use a good " B-50 " formula. This

will give one a balanced formula. Never take individual B vitamins--

they should be taken together in the proper ratio. Vitamins C and E

are probably the most important. I always took large mega doses, but

you

shouldn't do this unless you know what you are doing. Magnesium is

excellent, but should be balanced with Calcium. Zinc (never more than

50mg/day) is good to. *Never* take large doses of minerals if you

don't know what you are doing. Ditto for A and D.

I'm starting to digress here. I think healthy lifestyle changes and

outdoor activities are a good bet as a substitute for the drug of

choice.

Jim

[Guest guest]

I've never met Jack, but I get the impression that he has a

delightful sense of humor. Recovery group disorder, Recovery movement

cancelled.... His crash course on AVRT is delightful! Besides being

free, it's fun! When I first completed the course I had the sound

card turned up high. I experienced " graduation. " ROFL!! I laughed so

hard: THAT'S IT! GO HOME, YOU'RE CURED NOW! HERE'S YOUR DEGREE--RUN

ALONG... :-) For anyone recovering from AA this attitude is very

theraputic. (No, we don't want to get to know you better--scram ;-)

Jim

[Guest guest]

I've never met Jack, but I get the impression that he has a

delightful sense of humor. Recovery group disorder, Recovery movement

cancelled.... His crash course on AVRT is delightful! Besides being

free, it's fun! When I first completed the course I had the sound

card turned up high. I experienced " graduation. " ROFL!! I laughed so

hard: THAT'S IT! GO HOME, YOU'RE CURED NOW! HERE'S YOUR DEGREE--RUN

ALONG... :-) For anyone recovering from AA this attitude is very

theraputic. (No, we don't want to get to know you better--scram ;-)

Jim

[Guest guest]

I've never met Jack, but I get the impression that he has a

delightful sense of humor. Recovery group disorder, Recovery movement

cancelled.... His crash course on AVRT is delightful! Besides being

free, it's fun! When I first completed the course I had the sound

card turned up high. I experienced " graduation. " ROFL!! I laughed so

hard: THAT'S IT! GO HOME, YOU'RE CURED NOW! HERE'S YOUR DEGREE--RUN

ALONG... :-) For anyone recovering from AA this attitude is very

theraputic. (No, we don't want to get to know you better--scram ;-)

Jim

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/7/01 6:18:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,

wn115@... writes:

<< > I agree, it's another of my criticisms of Trimpey -- he has no

interest in health or nutrition issues and in fact scorns approaches

that are. One book I found quite interesting and helpful was " How to

Stop Drinking Without AA " by Jerry Dorsman. It begins with a list of

health and emotional questionnaires designed to get you to be more

self-aware of your emotional and bodily reactions not only to alcohol

(and in different amounts and settings), but reactions to sugar,

various foods, etc. Dorsman is a big believer in viewing severely

cutting down or quitting drinking as part of a larger continuum of

improving health by eating better, exercising, and generally taking

better care of your body. And he encourages you to continually note

your physical and emotional reactions to various diet and other

changes as you make them. Therefore there is no one-size-fits-all,

everyone's body reacts differently.

>

> ~Rita

And Dave wrote:

---

i found when i quit that vitamin b did help me. apparently when

you drink, the alcohol damages the >>

thanks Rita.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/7/01 6:18:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,

wn115@... writes:

<< > I agree, it's another of my criticisms of Trimpey -- he has no

interest in health or nutrition issues and in fact scorns approaches

that are. One book I found quite interesting and helpful was " How to

Stop Drinking Without AA " by Jerry Dorsman. It begins with a list of

health and emotional questionnaires designed to get you to be more

self-aware of your emotional and bodily reactions not only to alcohol

(and in different amounts and settings), but reactions to sugar,

various foods, etc. Dorsman is a big believer in viewing severely

cutting down or quitting drinking as part of a larger continuum of

improving health by eating better, exercising, and generally taking

better care of your body. And he encourages you to continually note

your physical and emotional reactions to various diet and other

changes as you make them. Therefore there is no one-size-fits-all,

everyone's body reacts differently.

>

> ~Rita

And Dave wrote:

---

i found when i quit that vitamin b did help me. apparently when

you drink, the alcohol damages the >>

thanks Rita.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/7/01 6:18:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,

wn115@... writes:

<< > I agree, it's another of my criticisms of Trimpey -- he has no

interest in health or nutrition issues and in fact scorns approaches

that are. One book I found quite interesting and helpful was " How to

Stop Drinking Without AA " by Jerry Dorsman. It begins with a list of

health and emotional questionnaires designed to get you to be more

self-aware of your emotional and bodily reactions not only to alcohol

(and in different amounts and settings), but reactions to sugar,

various foods, etc. Dorsman is a big believer in viewing severely

cutting down or quitting drinking as part of a larger continuum of

improving health by eating better, exercising, and generally taking

better care of your body. And he encourages you to continually note

your physical and emotional reactions to various diet and other

changes as you make them. Therefore there is no one-size-fits-all,

everyone's body reacts differently.

>

> ~Rita

And Dave wrote:

---

i found when i quit that vitamin b did help me. apparently when

you drink, the alcohol damages the >>

thanks Rita.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/7/01 7:14:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,

wn115@... writes:

<< 've never met Jack, but I get the impression that he has a

delightful sense of humor. Recovery group disorder, Recovery movement

cancelled.... His crash course on AVRT is delightful! Besides being

free, it's fun! When I first completed the course I had the sound

card turned up high. I experienced " graduation. " ROFL!! I laughed so

hard: THAT'S IT! GO HOME, YOU'RE CURED NOW! HERE'S YOUR DEGREE--RUN

ALONG... :-) For anyone recovering from AA this attitude is very

theraputic. (No, we don't want to get to know you better--scram ;-)

Jim >>

if the shoe fits Jim...... <snicker>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/7/01 7:14:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,

wn115@... writes:

<< 've never met Jack, but I get the impression that he has a

delightful sense of humor. Recovery group disorder, Recovery movement

cancelled.... His crash course on AVRT is delightful! Besides being

free, it's fun! When I first completed the course I had the sound

card turned up high. I experienced " graduation. " ROFL!! I laughed so

hard: THAT'S IT! GO HOME, YOU'RE CURED NOW! HERE'S YOUR DEGREE--RUN

ALONG... :-) For anyone recovering from AA this attitude is very

theraputic. (No, we don't want to get to know you better--scram ;-)

Jim >>

if the shoe fits Jim...... <snicker>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/7/01 7:14:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,

wn115@... writes:

<< 've never met Jack, but I get the impression that he has a

delightful sense of humor. Recovery group disorder, Recovery movement

cancelled.... His crash course on AVRT is delightful! Besides being

free, it's fun! When I first completed the course I had the sound

card turned up high. I experienced " graduation. " ROFL!! I laughed so

hard: THAT'S IT! GO HOME, YOU'RE CURED NOW! HERE'S YOUR DEGREE--RUN

ALONG... :-) For anyone recovering from AA this attitude is very

theraputic. (No, we don't want to get to know you better--scram ;-)

Jim >>

if the shoe fits Jim...... <snicker>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/7/01 10:18:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,

davetrippel@... writes:

<< I remember learning once on a TV wild animal special that tamed Bears are

very territorial and will bluff their human friends in the following way.

If both are out on a huge open field, the bear will often try to take over

the spot the human is standing on in a very nonchalant backing into it way

as if taking over that particular spot was the last thing on its mind. It

has something to do with bear socialization obviously, and is purposefully

provocative and testing. It has nothing to do with that spot of ground, it

has everything to do with the relationship between the two creatures.

The reason I bring this up is that GrahJAG asking us " why do I keep trying? "

strikes me as similarly provocative, obnoxious, and at the level of

intelligence of a nonhuman organism. It has nothing to do with the answer

to the question. It has everything to do with can GrahJAG really bluff us

into believing he doesn't know why he drinks. That it strikes me this way

may reflect as much or more where I'm coming from as where GrahJAG is coming

from. That could easily have been me speaking close to those very words

twenty five years ago.

Dave Trippel

.......backs up.....sniffs at Trippel..........is that a capitalist

smell......

pheremones cancel out.......eeeeer or an english lit major.........damn so

hard to discriminate pheremones these days...............

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/7/01 10:18:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,

davetrippel@... writes:

<< I remember learning once on a TV wild animal special that tamed Bears are

very territorial and will bluff their human friends in the following way.

If both are out on a huge open field, the bear will often try to take over

the spot the human is standing on in a very nonchalant backing into it way

as if taking over that particular spot was the last thing on its mind. It

has something to do with bear socialization obviously, and is purposefully

provocative and testing. It has nothing to do with that spot of ground, it

has everything to do with the relationship between the two creatures.

The reason I bring this up is that GrahJAG asking us " why do I keep trying? "

strikes me as similarly provocative, obnoxious, and at the level of

intelligence of a nonhuman organism. It has nothing to do with the answer

to the question. It has everything to do with can GrahJAG really bluff us

into believing he doesn't know why he drinks. That it strikes me this way

may reflect as much or more where I'm coming from as where GrahJAG is coming

from. That could easily have been me speaking close to those very words

twenty five years ago.

Dave Trippel

.......backs up.....sniffs at Trippel..........is that a capitalist

smell......

pheremones cancel out.......eeeeer or an english lit major.........damn so

hard to discriminate pheremones these days...............

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/7/01 10:18:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,

davetrippel@... writes:

<< I remember learning once on a TV wild animal special that tamed Bears are

very territorial and will bluff their human friends in the following way.

If both are out on a huge open field, the bear will often try to take over

the spot the human is standing on in a very nonchalant backing into it way

as if taking over that particular spot was the last thing on its mind. It

has something to do with bear socialization obviously, and is purposefully

provocative and testing. It has nothing to do with that spot of ground, it

has everything to do with the relationship between the two creatures.

The reason I bring this up is that GrahJAG asking us " why do I keep trying? "

strikes me as similarly provocative, obnoxious, and at the level of

intelligence of a nonhuman organism. It has nothing to do with the answer

to the question. It has everything to do with can GrahJAG really bluff us

into believing he doesn't know why he drinks. That it strikes me this way

may reflect as much or more where I'm coming from as where GrahJAG is coming

from. That could easily have been me speaking close to those very words

twenty five years ago.

Dave Trippel

.......backs up.....sniffs at Trippel..........is that a capitalist

smell......

pheremones cancel out.......eeeeer or an english lit major.........damn so

hard to discriminate pheremones these days...............