RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

December 6, 2004

In a message dated 12/6/2004 4:56:46 PM Central Standard Time,

hatfield@... writes:

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or are

missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily a

horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording' is

what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be transitioned in.

Mike

Hey Mike,

Guess what. I disagree and agree with you. I agree this document sucks.

But I disagree about needing a Scope of Practice. Minimum level of training

would be better. But I don't know what to call it.

Tom LeNeveu

Learning Paramedic

EMStock2004 was a RESOUNDING SUCCESS... Come See us Next year.

_www.emstock.com_ (http://www.emstock.com/)

_www.temsf.org_ (http://www.temsf.org/)

December 6, 2004

In a message dated 12/6/2004 4:56:46 PM Central Standard Time,

hatfield@... writes:

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or are

missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily a

horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording' is

what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be transitioned in.

Mike

Hey Mike,

Guess what. I disagree and agree with you. I agree this document sucks.

But I disagree about needing a Scope of Practice. Minimum level of training

would be better. But I don't know what to call it.

Tom LeNeveu

Learning Paramedic

EMStock2004 was a RESOUNDING SUCCESS... Come See us Next year.

_www.emstock.com_ (http://www.emstock.com/)

_www.temsf.org_ (http://www.temsf.org/)

December 6, 2004

In a message dated 12/6/2004 4:56:46 PM Central Standard Time,

hatfield@... writes:

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or are

missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily a

horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording' is

what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be transitioned in.

Mike

Hey Mike,

Guess what. I disagree and agree with you. I agree this document sucks.

But I disagree about needing a Scope of Practice. Minimum level of training

would be better. But I don't know what to call it.

Tom LeNeveu

Learning Paramedic

EMStock2004 was a RESOUNDING SUCCESS... Come See us Next year.

_www.emstock.com_ (http://www.emstock.com/)

_www.temsf.org_ (http://www.temsf.org/)

December 6, 2004

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

very few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run

the same calls they are running today and would provide the same

level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we NEED

to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

December 6, 2004

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

very few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run

the same calls they are running today and would provide the same

level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we NEED

to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

December 6, 2004

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

very few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run

the same calls they are running today and would provide the same

level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we NEED

to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

December 6, 2004

Alfonso,

That is true I may have missed the boat but I am not talking about 3 or 5

years from now. What about 10 years from now when most of the folks

currently certified leave the business or retire. Then what? The issue is

still there, how do we pay for all this??

Bernie Stafford EMTP

Re: National Standards (Long)

> Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private ambulance

> provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in

Paramedicine. I

> can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the

budget

> to continue the current level of care they offer under the current

National

> SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to

Paramedic

> school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there

to have

> those 2 medics get a BA?

You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a

paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital care.

-aro

December 6, 2004

Alfonso,

That is true I may have missed the boat but I am not talking about 3 or 5

years from now. What about 10 years from now when most of the folks

currently certified leave the business or retire. Then what? The issue is

still there, how do we pay for all this??

Bernie Stafford EMTP

Re: National Standards (Long)

> Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private ambulance

> provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in

Paramedicine. I

> can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the

budget

> to continue the current level of care they offer under the current

National

> SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to

Paramedic

> school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there

to have

> those 2 medics get a BA?

You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a

paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital care.

-aro

December 6, 2004

Alfonso,

That is true I may have missed the boat but I am not talking about 3 or 5

years from now. What about 10 years from now when most of the folks

currently certified leave the business or retire. Then what? The issue is

still there, how do we pay for all this??

Bernie Stafford EMTP

Re: National Standards (Long)

> Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private ambulance

> provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in

Paramedicine. I

> can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the

budget

> to continue the current level of care they offer under the current

National

> SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to

Paramedic

> school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there

to have

> those 2 medics get a BA?

You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a

paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital care.

-aro

December 6, 2004

Alfonso,

That may be true and I hope our paramedics are better educated in ten years.

I have been doing my part to improve the education of all levels of our

providers.

But again who is going to pay for that education and what provider is going

to give the salary that degreed paramedic deserves. Look at the current

funding of most EMS providers today, Medicare and insurance cutbacks have

caused the demise of numerous services and several of the big national

providers were on the brink of going out of business. How are they going to

pay that kind of salary unless EMS changes overall, better education is a

cornerstone for progression of our chosen profession.

We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document that

fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie Stafford EMTP

Re: National Standards (Long)

>

> > Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private

ambulance

> > provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in

> Paramedicine. I

> > can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the

> budget

> > to continue the current level of care they offer under the current

> National

> > SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to

> Paramedic

> > school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there

> to have

> > those 2 medics get a BA?

>

> You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a

> paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital

care.

>

> -aro

>

December 6, 2004

This just reminds of something I heard quoted from Abe Lincoln.

He said, If I had to justify all attacks leveled at this office, then this

office would be closed for all other business. I do the best I can, the very

best I know how, and I will keep on doing this right down to the very end. Then

if the ends brings me out all wrong, then 10 angles swearing I had been right

would make no difference, but if the end brings me out all right, then this now

will amount to nothing.

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " wrote:

Ten years from now, new students will want to spend four years in

school to become a paramedic if we get the recognition we deserve.

Ultimately, it's the individual that pays for his/her education.

-aro

> Alfonso,

>

> That is true I may have missed the boat but I am not talking about 3

or 5

> years from now. What about 10 years from now when most of the folks

> currently certified leave the business or retire. Then what? The

issue is

> still there, how do we pay for all this??

>

> Bernie Stafford EMTP

>

> Re: National Standards (Long)

>

> > Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private

ambulance

> > provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in

> Paramedicine. I

> > can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the

> budget

> > to continue the current level of care they offer under the current

> National

> > SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to

> Paramedic

> > school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there

> to have

> > those 2 medics get a BA?

>

> You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a

> paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital

care.

>

> -aro

>

December 6, 2004

This just reminds of something I heard quoted from Abe Lincoln.

He said, If I had to justify all attacks leveled at this office, then this

office would be closed for all other business. I do the best I can, the very

best I know how, and I will keep on doing this right down to the very end. Then

if the ends brings me out all wrong, then 10 angles swearing I had been right

would make no difference, but if the end brings me out all right, then this now

will amount to nothing.

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " wrote:

Ten years from now, new students will want to spend four years in

school to become a paramedic if we get the recognition we deserve.

Ultimately, it's the individual that pays for his/her education.

-aro

> Alfonso,

>

> That is true I may have missed the boat but I am not talking about 3

or 5

> years from now. What about 10 years from now when most of the folks

> currently certified leave the business or retire. Then what? The

issue is

> still there, how do we pay for all this??

>

> Bernie Stafford EMTP

>

> Re: National Standards (Long)

>

> > Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private

ambulance

> > provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in

> Paramedicine. I

> > can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the

> budget

> > to continue the current level of care they offer under the current

> National

> > SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to

> Paramedic

> > school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there

> to have

> > those 2 medics get a BA?

>

> You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a

> paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital

care.

>

> -aro

>

December 6, 2004

This just reminds of something I heard quoted from Abe Lincoln.

He said, If I had to justify all attacks leveled at this office, then this

office would be closed for all other business. I do the best I can, the very

best I know how, and I will keep on doing this right down to the very end. Then

if the ends brings me out all wrong, then 10 angles swearing I had been right

would make no difference, but if the end brings me out all right, then this now

will amount to nothing.

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " wrote:

Ten years from now, new students will want to spend four years in

school to become a paramedic if we get the recognition we deserve.

Ultimately, it's the individual that pays for his/her education.

-aro

> Alfonso,

>

> That is true I may have missed the boat but I am not talking about 3

or 5

> years from now. What about 10 years from now when most of the folks

> currently certified leave the business or retire. Then what? The

issue is

> still there, how do we pay for all this??

>

> Bernie Stafford EMTP

>

> Re: National Standards (Long)

>

> > Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private

ambulance

> > provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in

> Paramedicine. I

> > can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the

> budget

> > to continue the current level of care they offer under the current

> National

> > SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to

> Paramedic

> > school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there

> to have

> > those 2 medics get a BA?

>

> You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a

> paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital

care.

>

> -aro

>

December 6, 2004

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document that

>>fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or are

missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily a

horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording' is

what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be transitioned in.

Mike

December 6, 2004

Sorry,I forgot to sign this post. My memory about the exact statement from may

not be right, but you get the jest.

wrote:

This just reminds of something I heard quoted from Abe Lincoln.

He said, If I had to justify all attacks leveled at this office, then this

office would be closed for all other business. I do the best I can, the very

best I know how, and I will keep on doing this right down to the very end. Then

if the ends brings me out all wrong, then 10 angles swearing I had been right

would make no difference, but if the end brings me out all right, then this now

will amount to nothing.

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " wrote:

Ten years from now, new students will want to spend four years in

school to become a paramedic if we get the recognition we deserve.

Ultimately, it's the individual that pays for his/her education.

-aro

> Alfonso,

>

> That is true I may have missed the boat but I am not talking about 3

or 5

> years from now. What about 10 years from now when most of the folks

> currently certified leave the business or retire. Then what? The

issue is

> still there, how do we pay for all this??

>

> Bernie Stafford EMTP

>

> Re: National Standards (Long)

>

> > Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private

ambulance

> > provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in

> Paramedicine. I

> > can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the

> budget

> > to continue the current level of care they offer under the current

> National

> > SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to

> Paramedic

> > school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there

> to have

> > those 2 medics get a BA?

>

> You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a

> paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital

care.

>

> -aro

>

December 6, 2004

Sorry,I forgot to sign this post. My memory about the exact statement from may

not be right, but you get the jest.

wrote:

This just reminds of something I heard quoted from Abe Lincoln.

He said, If I had to justify all attacks leveled at this office, then this

office would be closed for all other business. I do the best I can, the very

best I know how, and I will keep on doing this right down to the very end. Then

if the ends brings me out all wrong, then 10 angles swearing I had been right

would make no difference, but if the end brings me out all right, then this now

will amount to nothing.

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " wrote:

Ten years from now, new students will want to spend four years in

school to become a paramedic if we get the recognition we deserve.

Ultimately, it's the individual that pays for his/her education.

-aro

> Alfonso,

>

> That is true I may have missed the boat but I am not talking about 3

or 5

> years from now. What about 10 years from now when most of the folks

> currently certified leave the business or retire. Then what? The

issue is

> still there, how do we pay for all this??

>

> Bernie Stafford EMTP

>

> Re: National Standards (Long)

>

> > Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private

ambulance

> > provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in

> Paramedicine. I

> > can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the

> budget

> > to continue the current level of care they offer under the current

> National

> > SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to

> Paramedic

> > school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there

> to have

> > those 2 medics get a BA?

>

> You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a

> paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital

care.

>

> -aro

>

December 6, 2004

Sorry,I forgot to sign this post. My memory about the exact statement from may

not be right, but you get the jest.

wrote:

This just reminds of something I heard quoted from Abe Lincoln.

He said, If I had to justify all attacks leveled at this office, then this

office would be closed for all other business. I do the best I can, the very

best I know how, and I will keep on doing this right down to the very end. Then

if the ends brings me out all wrong, then 10 angles swearing I had been right

would make no difference, but if the end brings me out all right, then this now

will amount to nothing.

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " wrote:

Ten years from now, new students will want to spend four years in

school to become a paramedic if we get the recognition we deserve.

Ultimately, it's the individual that pays for his/her education.

-aro

> Alfonso,

>

> That is true I may have missed the boat but I am not talking about 3

or 5

> years from now. What about 10 years from now when most of the folks

> currently certified leave the business or retire. Then what? The

issue is

> still there, how do we pay for all this??

>

> Bernie Stafford EMTP

>

> Re: National Standards (Long)

>

> > Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private

ambulance

> > provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in

> Paramedicine. I

> > can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the

> budget

> > to continue the current level of care they offer under the current

> National

> > SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to

> Paramedic

> > school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there

> to have

> > those 2 medics get a BA?

>

> You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a

> paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital

care.

>

> -aro

>

December 6, 2004

" And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The SoP

document crams us all into the same cage. "

The SoP has nothing to do with what area you work in, and it doesn't cram

anyone into a cage. Does working in a rural area somehow make you more

qualified to use more invasive techniques in treating your patient? Did

you go to a better Paramedic school than the DFR people did? If not, than

the urban/rural analysis has absolutely no relevance. People are arguing

the fine points of this into oblivion. If you think that surgical airways

and RSI should be part of the Paramedic SoP, great! I do too. Let's work

to change that.

This document does concern the minimum amount of education required before

an individual can perform certain procedures. I happen to think that

Paramedics should be allowed to everything that you are doing today, Gene,

and I hope the SoP will reflect that. But at what point is a seminar and

medical director approval not good enough to perform advanced skills?

Should a Paramedic who didn't have Anatomy and Physiology be allowed to

suture wounds after some alphabet soup course when they probably have very

little knowledge of the integument? Can a workshop make you competent in

extensor tendon repair? DPL? Tube thoracostomy? Does the " Pelvic Exams

for Lonely Practitioners " class make someone a competent gynecologist?

It's akin to a call where you tell a child's mother that you are going to

suture a simple laceration on the kid's leg. When they ask if you are a

doctor, you tell them, " No, but I did go to class every Tuesday and Thursday

for a whole nine months and then I went to this class on suturing for a

week " . Yeah, and I stayed at a Holliday Inn Express last night.

- Lancaster

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

very few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run

the same calls they are running today and would provide the same

level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we NEED

to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

December 6, 2004