RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

[Guest guest]

My heartburn is that NSOP is not a NSOP if it is modified for each and

every state. If it is modified, then it becomes that states SOP not a

NSOP. In a state the size of Texas with so many different types of EMS

systems with varying needs (metropolitain, suburban, rural and frontier)

a state SOP wouldn't even work. Why not focus on trying to get everyone

the best training at their level of certification or license and let

them do their job.

I don't know about you, but the last thing I need is Washington DC

trying to explain why I need something that just doesn't work here in

South Texas. Leave it to Washington DC to totally screw something up.

Just look at Medicare and the Federally funded Medicaid. Enough said!

Bill

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

My heartburn is that NSOP is not a NSOP if it is modified for each and

every state. If it is modified, then it becomes that states SOP not a

NSOP. In a state the size of Texas with so many different types of EMS

systems with varying needs (metropolitain, suburban, rural and frontier)

a state SOP wouldn't even work. Why not focus on trying to get everyone

the best training at their level of certification or license and let

them do their job.

I don't know about you, but the last thing I need is Washington DC

trying to explain why I need something that just doesn't work here in

South Texas. Leave it to Washington DC to totally screw something up.

Just look at Medicare and the Federally funded Medicaid. Enough said!

Bill

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

My heartburn is that NSOP is not a NSOP if it is modified for each and

every state. If it is modified, then it becomes that states SOP not a

NSOP. In a state the size of Texas with so many different types of EMS

systems with varying needs (metropolitain, suburban, rural and frontier)

a state SOP wouldn't even work. Why not focus on trying to get everyone

the best training at their level of certification or license and let

them do their job.

I don't know about you, but the last thing I need is Washington DC

trying to explain why I need something that just doesn't work here in

South Texas. Leave it to Washington DC to totally screw something up.

Just look at Medicare and the Federally funded Medicaid. Enough said!

Bill

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

That is the point--they do not want to modify it for each state and may tie

it to NHTSA funds...if a state doesn't adopt...no NHTSA money--like we see

with the speed limits. If is an unfunded mandate held hostage by a partially

funded mandate.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

That is the point--they do not want to modify it for each state and may tie

it to NHTSA funds...if a state doesn't adopt...no NHTSA money--like we see

with the speed limits. If is an unfunded mandate held hostage by a partially

funded mandate.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

That is the point--they do not want to modify it for each state and may tie

it to NHTSA funds...if a state doesn't adopt...no NHTSA money--like we see

with the speed limits. If is an unfunded mandate held hostage by a partially

funded mandate.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

As a guide line or minimum standards I can see this but as a national rule of

what local people will do I totally disagree. never give up your state or local

rights to the government in Washington.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

As a guide line or minimum standards I can see this but as a national rule of

what local people will do I totally disagree. never give up your state or local

rights to the government in Washington.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

As a guide line or minimum standards I can see this but as a national rule of

what local people will do I totally disagree. never give up your state or local

rights to the government in Washington.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

: Working in a rural area doesn't make you anything except further

away from everything else that is being required in the new NSOPs.

Normally in the rural areas, due to extended transport times, extended

distance from colleges and universities, we have to try our best to get

the biggest bang for the buck. Also due to the fact that the rural

areas don't have near the population which translates into call volume,

the rural systems are hanging on by the skin of the teeth financially.

We usually have a one on one relationship with our medical directors

(the entire system)and he or she is normally willing to extend

additional training and permission to do skills/procedures that in the

cities are normally reserved for the higher levels of certification.

The NSOPs basically limit the Medical Directors authority to increase

what any particular level of certification medic can do. I think most

of us in the rural areas, are just looking at this as another situation

where the big city agencies are pushing for something that will

negatively affect us in the rural areas and because of our distance from

the formal educations centers, it will bring an unneeded burden on us

and our systems.

I think the biggest statement that should be made is Don't Fix What

isn't Broken.

BH

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

: Working in a rural area doesn't make you anything except further

away from everything else that is being required in the new NSOPs.

Normally in the rural areas, due to extended transport times, extended

distance from colleges and universities, we have to try our best to get

the biggest bang for the buck. Also due to the fact that the rural

areas don't have near the population which translates into call volume,

the rural systems are hanging on by the skin of the teeth financially.

We usually have a one on one relationship with our medical directors

(the entire system)and he or she is normally willing to extend

additional training and permission to do skills/procedures that in the

cities are normally reserved for the higher levels of certification.

The NSOPs basically limit the Medical Directors authority to increase

what any particular level of certification medic can do. I think most

of us in the rural areas, are just looking at this as another situation

where the big city agencies are pushing for something that will

negatively affect us in the rural areas and because of our distance from

the formal educations centers, it will bring an unneeded burden on us

and our systems.

I think the biggest statement that should be made is Don't Fix What

isn't Broken.

BH

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

: Working in a rural area doesn't make you anything except further

away from everything else that is being required in the new NSOPs.

Normally in the rural areas, due to extended transport times, extended

distance from colleges and universities, we have to try our best to get

the biggest bang for the buck. Also due to the fact that the rural

areas don't have near the population which translates into call volume,

the rural systems are hanging on by the skin of the teeth financially.

We usually have a one on one relationship with our medical directors

(the entire system)and he or she is normally willing to extend

additional training and permission to do skills/procedures that in the

cities are normally reserved for the higher levels of certification.

The NSOPs basically limit the Medical Directors authority to increase

what any particular level of certification medic can do. I think most

of us in the rural areas, are just looking at this as another situation

where the big city agencies are pushing for something that will

negatively affect us in the rural areas and because of our distance from

the formal educations centers, it will bring an unneeded burden on us

and our systems.

I think the biggest statement that should be made is Don't Fix What

isn't Broken.

BH

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

AMEN!

BH

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

As a guide line or minimum standards I can see this but as a national

rule of what local people will do I totally disagree. never give up your

state or local rights to the government in Washington.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current

format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not

neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific

wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

AMEN!

BH

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

As a guide line or minimum standards I can see this but as a national

rule of what local people will do I totally disagree. never give up your

state or local rights to the government in Washington.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------

RE: Re: National Standards (Long)

>>From: Bernie Stafford

>>We don't need to scrape the Nation SOP just modify it to a document

>>that fits our needs. Right now I don't see that in the current

format.

Bernie,

This illustrates the thing that I think a lot of people have missed or

are missing. The ideology behind a SoP, in my mind, is not

neccessarily

a horrible thing, this 'specific document', with it's 'specific

wording'

is what I disagree with. I am also very curious how it will be

transitioned in.

Mike

[Guest guest]

Hal,

I must respectfully disagree with you.

If I were a frontier battlefield medic, I would rather work with someone who

spent several years, and thousands of dollars learning that the French

accepted Napoleon as a their dictator two times, even though they had

recently gone through a revolution against monarchy. That the LDU algorithm

will assist in determining the convexity of a matrix function in linear

algebra. Or, that Shakespeare had to leave Stratford to escape

prosecution for poaching deer on the lands of Sir Lucy.

I can't believe that you would put the lives of our patients in the hands of

someone who spent only a thousand hours in class, followed by years of

experience, and thousands of patient contacts. And to top it off, they try

to maintain and expand their feeble skills and knowledge by taking every

silly alphabet soup course, all because they think it's better to be a

" subject matter expert " than a " well rounded " individual.

Jeez!

I think you should shut down your progressive EMS system, and send those

Volley's to college so they can be as good as us big city medics who use

every advanced protocol known to mankind. Rrrright..

Love ya man :-)

Lee Stanphill,

GED, EMT-P,CCEMTP, FPC, No-LP, CIA, NSA, FBI and probably a CABG in < 10

years.

Lee@...

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very few

systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same calls

they are running today and would provide the same level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we NEED

to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Hal,

I must respectfully disagree with you.

If I were a frontier battlefield medic, I would rather work with someone who

spent several years, and thousands of dollars learning that the French

accepted Napoleon as a their dictator two times, even though they had

recently gone through a revolution against monarchy. That the LDU algorithm

will assist in determining the convexity of a matrix function in linear

algebra. Or, that Shakespeare had to leave Stratford to escape

prosecution for poaching deer on the lands of Sir Lucy.

I can't believe that you would put the lives of our patients in the hands of

someone who spent only a thousand hours in class, followed by years of

experience, and thousands of patient contacts. And to top it off, they try

to maintain and expand their feeble skills and knowledge by taking every

silly alphabet soup course, all because they think it's better to be a

" subject matter expert " than a " well rounded " individual.

Jeez!

I think you should shut down your progressive EMS system, and send those

Volley's to college so they can be as good as us big city medics who use

every advanced protocol known to mankind. Rrrright..

Love ya man :-)

Lee Stanphill,

GED, EMT-P,CCEMTP, FPC, No-LP, CIA, NSA, FBI and probably a CABG in < 10

years.

Lee@...

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very few

systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same calls

they are running today and would provide the same level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we NEED

to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Hal,

I must respectfully disagree with you.

If I were a frontier battlefield medic, I would rather work with someone who

spent several years, and thousands of dollars learning that the French

accepted Napoleon as a their dictator two times, even though they had

recently gone through a revolution against monarchy. That the LDU algorithm

will assist in determining the convexity of a matrix function in linear

algebra. Or, that Shakespeare had to leave Stratford to escape

prosecution for poaching deer on the lands of Sir Lucy.

I can't believe that you would put the lives of our patients in the hands of

someone who spent only a thousand hours in class, followed by years of

experience, and thousands of patient contacts. And to top it off, they try

to maintain and expand their feeble skills and knowledge by taking every

silly alphabet soup course, all because they think it's better to be a

" subject matter expert " than a " well rounded " individual.

Jeez!

I think you should shut down your progressive EMS system, and send those

Volley's to college so they can be as good as us big city medics who use

every advanced protocol known to mankind. Rrrright..

Love ya man :-)

Lee Stanphill,

GED, EMT-P,CCEMTP, FPC, No-LP, CIA, NSA, FBI and probably a CABG in < 10

years.

Lee@...

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very few

systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same calls

they are running today and would provide the same level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we NEED

to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Lee: You made my day!

BH

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Lee: You made my day!

BH

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Lee: You made my day!

BH

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

i am kinda on the fence on this topic. i agree that more academic education

would benefit everybody in one way or another, but when was the last time you

were taking care of a patient at your pucker factor went up because you couldn't

remember that the name of the 16th president was abraham lincoln, or you didn't

know that 3x^2+6y^2-5z^2=0 is a formula used to make a 3D geometric formula.

whoopty doo. i am here to take care of patients, not quote encyclopedia

britannica. when is the last time you were asked that in a courtroom. teach me

anatomy and physiology, make sure i can do chem-cal, and create a narrative

based on patient care. all i need to know now is patient care at whatever lever

i choose, and maybe a little cherry on top. it may seem like " monkey see, monkey

do " , but that is why protocols are called guidelines, that way you are still

allowed to think.

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Is it everyone's assumption that the only thing you learn in a degree

program is history and calculus?

Try looking at the curriculum for most degree programs, it includes

biology to better understand A & P and the processes of the body, English

to better draft your narratives and correct grammatical errors which

lead you to look like an idiot if you ever present your PCR to a

courtroom, more time is spent on cardiology and pharmacology. Medical

terminology so we know what it is that is wrong with the patient instead

of asking the nurse what the big words mean, and college level math,

because G** knows that a large number of medics have no concept of how

to process the equation to reach the proper Dopamine drip rate, let

alone read a 12 lead without relying on the machines analysis. It even

includes public speaking so you know how to say what you need to say in

a relatively diplomatic fashion.

If for some reason you don't think a plaintiff's attorney will rip you a

new one because you can't spell, you're dead wrong. One of the first

questions they asked me in a deposition was " aside from your entities CE

program, where else, and how often do you keep up with the industry

standards? "

If you are getting all of your required CE from an online course, they

will reduce you to shreds before you leave the stand. That's not

education. Have I been in the witness stand? Nope, they decided at the

deposition that I really did know what I was talking about. I have

however, seen a few others who were not so lucky.

Does it change the way we apply an oxygen mask? Nope. But is that all we

need to know? Nope. Does it mean that a degree replaces the necessity

and the value of experience? Absolutely not. Does it give us added

insight in the way we consider RSI and the medications that we use, and

what patients we use them for? Yep. Does it give us better insight on

how to begin a definitive care plan for patients we transport for

greater distances? You better believe it, if not, we are nothing but

cook book medics, treating our patients under the same theories that we

are dogging the nursing industry for. Understanding, 'truly'

understanding what effect our treatment has on a patient and the

underlying problem and or disease process, is what makes the difference.

Let me add that I fought and argued for licensure, and I disagreed with

allowing grandfathering of certified medics. I think the increase in

education is the first step in raising our level of professionalism, and

I haven't even completed mine, so this is not about 'them (LP's and

educators) vs. us (certified medics)'. I still believe that there are

some incredibly talented medics that are not holders of degrees, and I

certainly don't mean to take away from them/us, but to insist that

higher education is worthless and has no place is ludicrous.

Still working on my degree........

Mike

'Tater Salad' Hatfield EMT-P

" Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes. "

EMStock 2005, it's never to early to plan!!!

www.emstock.com

www.temsf.org

i am kinda on the fence on this topic. i agree that more academic

education would benefit everybody in one way or another, but when was

the last time you were taking care of a patient at your pucker factor

went up because you couldn't remember that the name of the 16th

president was abraham lincoln, or you didn't know that 3x^2+6y^2-5z^2=0

is a formula used to make a 3D geometric formula. whoopty doo. i am here

to take care of patients, not quote encyclopedia britannica. when is the

last time you were asked that in a courtroom. teach me anatomy and

physiology, make sure i can do chem-cal, and create a narrative based on

patient care. all i need to know now is patient care at whatever lever i

choose, and maybe a little cherry on top. it may seem like " monkey see,

monkey do " , but that is why protocols are called guidelines, that way

you are still allowed to think.

Hal,

I must respectfully disagree with you.

If I were a frontier battlefield medic, I would rather work with

someone

who spent several years, and thousands of dollars learning that the

French accepted Napoleon as a their dictator two times, even though

they

had recently gone through a revolution against monarchy. That the LDU

algorithm will assist in determining the convexity of a matrix

function

in linear algebra. Or, that Shakespeare had to leave Stratford

to escape prosecution for poaching deer on the lands of Sir

Lucy.

I can't believe that you would put the lives of our patients in the

hands of someone who spent only a thousand hours in class, followed by

years of experience, and thousands of patient contacts. And to top it

off, they try to maintain and expand their feeble skills and knowledge

by taking every silly alphabet soup course, all because they think

it's

better to be a " subject matter expert " than a " well rounded "

individual.

Jeez!

I think you should shut down your progressive EMS system, and send

those

Volley's to college so they can be as good as us big city medics who

use

every advanced protocol known to mankind. Rrrright..

Love ya man :-)

Lee Stanphill,

GED, EMT-P,CCEMTP, FPC, No-LP, CIA, NSA, FBI and probably a CABG in <

10

years.

Lee@...

: Working in a rural area doesn't make you anything except

further

away from everything else that is being required in the new NSOPs.

Normally in the rural areas, due to extended transport times, extended

distance from colleges and universities, we have to try our best to

get

the biggest bang for the buck. Also due to the fact that the rural

areas don't have near the population which translates into call

volume,

the rural systems are hanging on by the skin of the teeth financially.

We usually have a one on one relationship with our medical directors

(the entire system)and he or she is normally willing to extend

additional training and permission to do skills/procedures that in the

cities are normally reserved for the higher levels of certification.

The

NSOPs basically limit the Medical Directors authority to increase what

any particular level of certification medic can do. I think most of

us

in the rural areas, are just looking at this as another situation

where

the big city agencies are pushing for something that will negatively

affect us in the rural areas and because of our distance from the

formal

educations centers, it will bring an unneeded burden on us and our

systems. I think the biggest statement that should be made is Don't

Fix

What isn't Broken. BH

" And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's

right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS.

The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage. "

The SoP has nothing to do with what area you work in, and it doesn't

cram anyone into a cage. Does working in a rural area somehow make

you

more qualified to use more invasive techniques in treating your

patient?

Did you go to a better Paramedic school than the DFR people did? If

not, than the urban/rural analysis has absolutely no relevance.

People

are arguing the fine points of this into oblivion. If you think that

surgical airways and RSI should be part of the Paramedic SoP, great!

I

do too. Let's work to change that.

This document does concern the minimum amount of education required

before an individual can perform certain procedures. I happen to

think

that Paramedics should be allowed to everything that you are doing

today, Gene, and I hope the SoP will reflect that. But at what point

is

a seminar and medical director approval not good enough to perform

advanced skills? Should a Paramedic who didn't have Anatomy and

Physiology be allowed to suture wounds after some alphabet soup course

when they probably have very little knowledge of the integument? Can

a

workshop make you competent in

extensor tendon repair? DPL? Tube thoracostomy? Does the " Pelvic

Exams

for Lonely Practitioners " class make someone a competent gynecologist?

It's akin to a call where you tell a child's mother that you are going

to suture a simple laceration on the kid's leg. When they ask if you

are a doctor, you tell them, " No, but I did go to class every Tuesday

and Thursday for a whole nine months and then I went to this class on

suturing for a week " . Yeah, and I stayed at a Holliday Inn Express

last

night.

- Lancaster

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the

same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of

care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS.

The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Is it everyone's assumption that the only thing you learn in a degree

program is history and calculus?

Try looking at the curriculum for most degree programs, it includes

biology to better understand A & P and the processes of the body, English

to better draft your narratives and correct grammatical errors which

lead you to look like an idiot if you ever present your PCR to a

courtroom, more time is spent on cardiology and pharmacology. Medical

terminology so we know what it is that is wrong with the patient instead

of asking the nurse what the big words mean, and college level math,

because G** knows that a large number of medics have no concept of how

to process the equation to reach the proper Dopamine drip rate, let

alone read a 12 lead without relying on the machines analysis. It even

includes public speaking so you know how to say what you need to say in

a relatively diplomatic fashion.

If for some reason you don't think a plaintiff's attorney will rip you a

new one because you can't spell, you're dead wrong. One of the first

questions they asked me in a deposition was " aside from your entities CE

program, where else, and how often do you keep up with the industry

standards? "

If you are getting all of your required CE from an online course, they

will reduce you to shreds before you leave the stand. That's not

education. Have I been in the witness stand? Nope, they decided at the

deposition that I really did know what I was talking about. I have

however, seen a few others who were not so lucky.

Does it change the way we apply an oxygen mask? Nope. But is that all we

need to know? Nope. Does it mean that a degree replaces the necessity

and the value of experience? Absolutely not. Does it give us added

insight in the way we consider RSI and the medications that we use, and

what patients we use them for? Yep. Does it give us better insight on

how to begin a definitive care plan for patients we transport for

greater distances? You better believe it, if not, we are nothing but

cook book medics, treating our patients under the same theories that we

are dogging the nursing industry for. Understanding, 'truly'

understanding what effect our treatment has on a patient and the

underlying problem and or disease process, is what makes the difference.

Let me add that I fought and argued for licensure, and I disagreed with

allowing grandfathering of certified medics. I think the increase in

education is the first step in raising our level of professionalism, and

I haven't even completed mine, so this is not about 'them (LP's and

educators) vs. us (certified medics)'. I still believe that there are

some incredibly talented medics that are not holders of degrees, and I

certainly don't mean to take away from them/us, but to insist that

higher education is worthless and has no place is ludicrous.

Still working on my degree........

Mike

'Tater Salad' Hatfield EMT-P

" Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes. "

EMStock 2005, it's never to early to plan!!!

www.emstock.com

www.temsf.org

i am kinda on the fence on this topic. i agree that more academic

education would benefit everybody in one way or another, but when was

the last time you were taking care of a patient at your pucker factor

went up because you couldn't remember that the name of the 16th

president was abraham lincoln, or you didn't know that 3x^2+6y^2-5z^2=0

is a formula used to make a 3D geometric formula. whoopty doo. i am here

to take care of patients, not quote encyclopedia britannica. when is the

last time you were asked that in a courtroom. teach me anatomy and

physiology, make sure i can do chem-cal, and create a narrative based on

patient care. all i need to know now is patient care at whatever lever i

choose, and maybe a little cherry on top. it may seem like " monkey see,

monkey do " , but that is why protocols are called guidelines, that way

you are still allowed to think.

Hal,

I must respectfully disagree with you.

If I were a frontier battlefield medic, I would rather work with

someone

who spent several years, and thousands of dollars learning that the

French accepted Napoleon as a their dictator two times, even though

they

had recently gone through a revolution against monarchy. That the LDU

algorithm will assist in determining the convexity of a matrix

function

in linear algebra. Or, that Shakespeare had to leave Stratford

to escape prosecution for poaching deer on the lands of Sir

Lucy.

I can't believe that you would put the lives of our patients in the

hands of someone who spent only a thousand hours in class, followed by

years of experience, and thousands of patient contacts. And to top it

off, they try to maintain and expand their feeble skills and knowledge

by taking every silly alphabet soup course, all because they think

it's

better to be a " subject matter expert " than a " well rounded "

individual.

Jeez!

I think you should shut down your progressive EMS system, and send

those

Volley's to college so they can be as good as us big city medics who

use

every advanced protocol known to mankind. Rrrright..

Love ya man :-)

Lee Stanphill,

GED, EMT-P,CCEMTP, FPC, No-LP, CIA, NSA, FBI and probably a CABG in <

10

years.

Lee@...

: Working in a rural area doesn't make you anything except

further

away from everything else that is being required in the new NSOPs.

Normally in the rural areas, due to extended transport times, extended

distance from colleges and universities, we have to try our best to

get

the biggest bang for the buck. Also due to the fact that the rural

areas don't have near the population which translates into call

volume,

the rural systems are hanging on by the skin of the teeth financially.

We usually have a one on one relationship with our medical directors

(the entire system)and he or she is normally willing to extend

additional training and permission to do skills/procedures that in the

cities are normally reserved for the higher levels of certification.

The

NSOPs basically limit the Medical Directors authority to increase what

any particular level of certification medic can do. I think most of

us

in the rural areas, are just looking at this as another situation

where

the big city agencies are pushing for something that will negatively

affect us in the rural areas and because of our distance from the

formal

educations centers, it will bring an unneeded burden on us and our

systems. I think the biggest statement that should be made is Don't

Fix

What isn't Broken. BH

" And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's

right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS.

The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage. "

The SoP has nothing to do with what area you work in, and it doesn't

cram anyone into a cage. Does working in a rural area somehow make

you

more qualified to use more invasive techniques in treating your

patient?

Did you go to a better Paramedic school than the DFR people did? If

not, than the urban/rural analysis has absolutely no relevance.

People

are arguing the fine points of this into oblivion. If you think that

surgical airways and RSI should be part of the Paramedic SoP, great!

I

do too. Let's work to change that.

This document does concern the minimum amount of education required

before an individual can perform certain procedures. I happen to

think

that Paramedics should be allowed to everything that you are doing

today, Gene, and I hope the SoP will reflect that. But at what point

is

a seminar and medical director approval not good enough to perform

advanced skills? Should a Paramedic who didn't have Anatomy and

Physiology be allowed to suture wounds after some alphabet soup course

when they probably have very little knowledge of the integument? Can

a

workshop make you competent in

extensor tendon repair? DPL? Tube thoracostomy? Does the " Pelvic

Exams

for Lonely Practitioners " class make someone a competent gynecologist?

It's akin to a call where you tell a child's mother that you are going

to suture a simple laceration on the kid's leg. When they ask if you

are a doctor, you tell them, " No, but I did go to class every Tuesday

and Thursday for a whole nine months and then I went to this class on

suturing for a week " . Yeah, and I stayed at a Holliday Inn Express

last

night.

- Lancaster

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the

same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of

care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS.

The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Is it everyone's assumption that the only thing you learn in a degree

program is history and calculus?

Try looking at the curriculum for most degree programs, it includes

biology to better understand A & P and the processes of the body, English

to better draft your narratives and correct grammatical errors which

lead you to look like an idiot if you ever present your PCR to a

courtroom, more time is spent on cardiology and pharmacology. Medical

terminology so we know what it is that is wrong with the patient instead

of asking the nurse what the big words mean, and college level math,

because G** knows that a large number of medics have no concept of how

to process the equation to reach the proper Dopamine drip rate, let

alone read a 12 lead without relying on the machines analysis. It even

includes public speaking so you know how to say what you need to say in

a relatively diplomatic fashion.

If for some reason you don't think a plaintiff's attorney will rip you a

new one because you can't spell, you're dead wrong. One of the first

questions they asked me in a deposition was " aside from your entities CE

program, where else, and how often do you keep up with the industry

standards? "

If you are getting all of your required CE from an online course, they

will reduce you to shreds before you leave the stand. That's not

education. Have I been in the witness stand? Nope, they decided at the

deposition that I really did know what I was talking about. I have

however, seen a few others who were not so lucky.

Does it change the way we apply an oxygen mask? Nope. But is that all we

need to know? Nope. Does it mean that a degree replaces the necessity

and the value of experience? Absolutely not. Does it give us added

insight in the way we consider RSI and the medications that we use, and

what patients we use them for? Yep. Does it give us better insight on

how to begin a definitive care plan for patients we transport for

greater distances? You better believe it, if not, we are nothing but

cook book medics, treating our patients under the same theories that we

are dogging the nursing industry for. Understanding, 'truly'

understanding what effect our treatment has on a patient and the

underlying problem and or disease process, is what makes the difference.

Let me add that I fought and argued for licensure, and I disagreed with

allowing grandfathering of certified medics. I think the increase in

education is the first step in raising our level of professionalism, and

I haven't even completed mine, so this is not about 'them (LP's and

educators) vs. us (certified medics)'. I still believe that there are

some incredibly talented medics that are not holders of degrees, and I

certainly don't mean to take away from them/us, but to insist that

higher education is worthless and has no place is ludicrous.

Still working on my degree........

Mike

'Tater Salad' Hatfield EMT-P

" Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes. "

EMStock 2005, it's never to early to plan!!!

www.emstock.com

www.temsf.org

i am kinda on the fence on this topic. i agree that more academic

education would benefit everybody in one way or another, but when was

the last time you were taking care of a patient at your pucker factor

went up because you couldn't remember that the name of the 16th

president was abraham lincoln, or you didn't know that 3x^2+6y^2-5z^2=0

is a formula used to make a 3D geometric formula. whoopty doo. i am here

to take care of patients, not quote encyclopedia britannica. when is the

last time you were asked that in a courtroom. teach me anatomy and

physiology, make sure i can do chem-cal, and create a narrative based on

patient care. all i need to know now is patient care at whatever lever i

choose, and maybe a little cherry on top. it may seem like " monkey see,

monkey do " , but that is why protocols are called guidelines, that way

you are still allowed to think.

Hal,

I must respectfully disagree with you.

If I were a frontier battlefield medic, I would rather work with

someone

who spent several years, and thousands of dollars learning that the

French accepted Napoleon as a their dictator two times, even though

they

had recently gone through a revolution against monarchy. That the LDU

algorithm will assist in determining the convexity of a matrix

function

in linear algebra. Or, that Shakespeare had to leave Stratford

to escape prosecution for poaching deer on the lands of Sir

Lucy.

I can't believe that you would put the lives of our patients in the

hands of someone who spent only a thousand hours in class, followed by

years of experience, and thousands of patient contacts. And to top it

off, they try to maintain and expand their feeble skills and knowledge

by taking every silly alphabet soup course, all because they think

it's

better to be a " subject matter expert " than a " well rounded "

individual.

Jeez!

I think you should shut down your progressive EMS system, and send

those

Volley's to college so they can be as good as us big city medics who

use

every advanced protocol known to mankind. Rrrright..

Love ya man :-)

Lee Stanphill,

GED, EMT-P,CCEMTP, FPC, No-LP, CIA, NSA, FBI and probably a CABG in <

10

years.

Lee@...

: Working in a rural area doesn't make you anything except

further

away from everything else that is being required in the new NSOPs.

Normally in the rural areas, due to extended transport times, extended

distance from colleges and universities, we have to try our best to

get

the biggest bang for the buck. Also due to the fact that the rural

areas don't have near the population which translates into call

volume,

the rural systems are hanging on by the skin of the teeth financially.

We usually have a one on one relationship with our medical directors

(the entire system)and he or she is normally willing to extend

additional training and permission to do skills/procedures that in the

cities are normally reserved for the higher levels of certification.

The

NSOPs basically limit the Medical Directors authority to increase what

any particular level of certification medic can do. I think most of

us

in the rural areas, are just looking at this as another situation

where

the big city agencies are pushing for something that will negatively

affect us in the rural areas and because of our distance from the

formal

educations centers, it will bring an unneeded burden on us and our

systems. I think the biggest statement that should be made is Don't

Fix

What isn't Broken. BH

" And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's

right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS.

The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage. "

The SoP has nothing to do with what area you work in, and it doesn't

cram anyone into a cage. Does working in a rural area somehow make

you

more qualified to use more invasive techniques in treating your

patient?

Did you go to a better Paramedic school than the DFR people did? If

not, than the urban/rural analysis has absolutely no relevance.

People

are arguing the fine points of this into oblivion. If you think that

surgical airways and RSI should be part of the Paramedic SoP, great!

I

do too. Let's work to change that.

This document does concern the minimum amount of education required

before an individual can perform certain procedures. I happen to

think

that Paramedics should be allowed to everything that you are doing

today, Gene, and I hope the SoP will reflect that. But at what point

is

a seminar and medical director approval not good enough to perform

advanced skills? Should a Paramedic who didn't have Anatomy and

Physiology be allowed to suture wounds after some alphabet soup course

when they probably have very little knowledge of the integument? Can

a

workshop make you competent in

extensor tendon repair? DPL? Tube thoracostomy? Does the " Pelvic

Exams

for Lonely Practitioners " class make someone a competent gynecologist?

It's akin to a call where you tell a child's mother that you are going

to suture a simple laceration on the kid's leg. When they ask if you

are a doctor, you tell them, " No, but I did go to class every Tuesday

and Thursday for a whole nine months and then I went to this class on

suturing for a week " . Yeah, and I stayed at a Holliday Inn Express

last

night.

- Lancaster

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the

same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of

care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS.

The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

i agree with you that paramedicine should include the academic curriculum as

well as the vocational training. as a matter of fact i did take the full

in-depth anatomy and physiology course, english, history, analytical geometry,

and even public speaking, along with a lot of the other classes that are

required for the degree program. i didn't get my degree, because i was

grandfathered in just before they requirement for the degree. i will say that i

have benefited from the academics and that i do plan on increasing my education

when my wife is finished getting her degree. but i can also say that i know a

lot of excellent paramedics that only took the required courses to get their

cert, so it is one of those things that is 6 in one hand and 1/2 dozen in the

other one, an extensive academic background doesn't make a good paramedic, but a

the same time you are right in saying that academics will give you a better base

for credentials in a deposition.

Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

Kenny writes:

" As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

very

few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the

same

calls they are running today and would provide the same level of

care. "

And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

for

Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS.

The

SoP

document crams us all into the same cage.

Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

Dallas.

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...