RE: Re: Scope of Practice Questions

[Guest guest]

The Phoenix FD did the first study on this in the 80's, it proved several

things; you can save the patient (and his myocardial muscle) about 50 mins

of door-to-drug time. Secondly, if you are adequately trained it will make

a difference in your pre-hospital treatments in STEMI patients (RVI vs.

Anterior). If you doubt that 12 leads are not standard of care why don't

you produce a study that validates your point? If you are so inclined to

educate yourself on the issue then pick up an ACLS text and look at the

referenced scientific studies cited that were used to substantiate their

standards on pre-hospital 12 lead.

Lee

_____

From: Brown

Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 7:38 PM

To:

Subject: Re: Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Find me a study that says 12-leads affect pt. outcome demonstrably in

pre-hospital medicine.

magnetass sends

Re: Re: Scope of Practice Questions

You got it, my friend. 12-lead is standard of care. It is well within

the

means of most services to provide it. So some lawyer, somewhere, will

attempt to hold a service liable for not providing " standard of care. "

Remember, SOC is a question of fact. Try to find an expert in emergency

cardiac care who will testify that 12-lead is not standard of care? Then

the

question becomes whether or not it is reasonable to deviate from SOC. Some

may

argue that they deviate because they simply do not have the funds to acquire

the equipment necessary. To win that argument, it had better be

demonstrably

true.

Here's an example of deviation from SOC justified by economic concerns:

Your community hospital doesn't have a CT or an MRI because it cannot afford

it.

But a reconditioned 12-lead monitor isn't the same as a CT or MRI, and there

are grants available. See what I mean?

Standard of Care is always going to be determined by a jury based upon the

testimony presented by experts. I'm only trying to explain what the

experts

are going to say.

Even if you cannot afford a 12-lead, everybody can use Marriot's or Modified

Chest leads to approximate a 12 lead and learn enough to identify a possible

right sided MI. Failure to do even that is, in my judgment, indefensible.

GG

>

>

> So you're saying, if I'm interpreting this correctly, is if I work for

> a service that only has 3-lead EKG capabilities and the prevailing

> standard of care is 12-lead EKG capability, the company,

> administration, and medical director can be held liable?

>

> -aro

>

>

>

> > Writes Alphonso:

> >

> > " tis why when the time comes, I can point out it's beyond my Scope of

> > Practice so I didn't do it for risk of being arrested. :-) "

> >

> > That's an interesting argument and one that would surely be set forth;

> > however, since scope or practice and standard of care are two

> different things, a

> > service that chooses to limit scope of practice may in fact be

> guilty of failing

> > to provide the prevailing standard of care. The persons who will

> be liable

> > for that failure will be the administrators, owners, managers, and

> medical

> > directors.

> >

> > Further, the SoP is sure to be attacked as an impermissible

> restriction on a

> > physician's medical practice, as interfering with the patient's 5th

> and 14th

> > Amendment rights, and so forth. The service that is chosen to be the

> > defendant in one of these cases will lose even if it wins.

> >

> > GG

> > GG

> > In a message dated 12/6/04 16:44:08, asclapius@a... writes:

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > And believe me, RSI and surgical crichs are well enough

> > > established as

> > > > being within the expertise of paramedics to perform, that if your

> > > patient could

> > > > have been saved through such a procedure and you didn't do it,

> > > you'll be taking

> > > > a long journey through the legal system.

> > > >

> > >

> > > '

> > >

> > > -aro

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering that has

taken place.

Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the argument

from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I can take

a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

knowledge and skill. "

I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several times

while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to be

considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to do the

things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require education

instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this would

have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real professional

standards would have a detrimental effect on their ability to continue

providing the level of care that they require. I am not unsympathetic to

this (even though I believe some of the claims have been exaggerated), but I

think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems continue to

scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of qualified

people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

I am also beginning to question how much we really value education. Of

course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments always go

something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as long as

they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there is always

some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above. When

you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate degree for

future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to RN's and

RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

- Lancaster

[Guest guest]

Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering that has

taken place.

Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the argument

from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I can take

a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

knowledge and skill. "

I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several times

while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to be

considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to do the

things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require education

instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this would

have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real professional

standards would have a detrimental effect on their ability to continue

providing the level of care that they require. I am not unsympathetic to

this (even though I believe some of the claims have been exaggerated), but I

think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems continue to

scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of qualified

people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

I am also beginning to question how much we really value education. Of

course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments always go

something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as long as

they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there is always

some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above. When

you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate degree for

future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to RN's and

RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

- Lancaster

[Guest guest]

Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering that has

taken place.

Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the argument

from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I can take

a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

knowledge and skill. "

I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several times

while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to be

considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to do the

things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require education

instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this would

have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real professional

standards would have a detrimental effect on their ability to continue

providing the level of care that they require. I am not unsympathetic to

this (even though I believe some of the claims have been exaggerated), but I

think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems continue to

scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of qualified

people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

I am also beginning to question how much we really value education. Of

course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments always go

something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as long as

they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there is always

some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above. When

you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate degree for

future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to RN's and

RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

- Lancaster

[Guest guest]

Mr. Lancaster,

I would like to take this chance to clarify the position of the EMS Association

of Texas (EMSAT) regarding National Scope of Practice:

You stated:

" ... When

you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate degree for

future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to RN's and

RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage. "

I quote EMSAT's position on National Scope of Practice, which can be found at

http://www.emsatoftx.org/positionstatements.php

" EMSAT opposes the imposition of any requirement that limits advanced paramedic

practice to those persons with a college degree in EMS. "

EMSAT meant this portion of the statement to apply only to " advanced paramedic

practice " , as opposed to ALL paramedic practice, and to " college degree(s) in

EMS " as opposed to college degrees in general.

I hope this clear up any confusion regarding EMSAT and the National Scope of

Practice.

Sincerely,

Randell Pitts

Secretary

EMS Association of Texas

[Guest guest]

Mr. Lancaster,

I would like to take this chance to clarify the position of the EMS Association

of Texas (EMSAT) regarding National Scope of Practice:

You stated:

" ... When

you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate degree for

future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to RN's and

RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage. "

I quote EMSAT's position on National Scope of Practice, which can be found at

http://www.emsatoftx.org/positionstatements.php

" EMSAT opposes the imposition of any requirement that limits advanced paramedic

practice to those persons with a college degree in EMS. "

EMSAT meant this portion of the statement to apply only to " advanced paramedic

practice " , as opposed to ALL paramedic practice, and to " college degree(s) in

EMS " as opposed to college degrees in general.

I hope this clear up any confusion regarding EMSAT and the National Scope of

Practice.

Sincerely,

Randell Pitts

Secretary

EMS Association of Texas

[Guest guest]

Mr. Lancaster,

I would like to take this chance to clarify the position of the EMS Association

of Texas (EMSAT) regarding National Scope of Practice:

You stated:

" ... When

you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate degree for

future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to RN's and

RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage. "

I quote EMSAT's position on National Scope of Practice, which can be found at

http://www.emsatoftx.org/positionstatements.php

" EMSAT opposes the imposition of any requirement that limits advanced paramedic

practice to those persons with a college degree in EMS. "

EMSAT meant this portion of the statement to apply only to " advanced paramedic

practice " , as opposed to ALL paramedic practice, and to " college degree(s) in

EMS " as opposed to college degrees in general.

I hope this clear up any confusion regarding EMSAT and the National Scope of

Practice.

Sincerely,

Randell Pitts

Secretary

EMS Association of Texas

[Guest guest]

This thinking is that of a tradesman or technician--not a professional.

Anybody can be trained to do anything. Sure you can take the SLAM course and

learn about all of the different airways. But, the better paramedic will

understand the pathophysiology, the disease course, and will intervene

before the patient requires a difficult airway. You can read the single

chapter on ethics in a paramedic textbook and learn just enough to know

general concepts--and know nothing about etcal problem solving--or you can

take a course and learn the discipline. You can struggle to learn how to

mutliply fractions and memorize some formula or you can take a course and

really understand what is going on. That is why the United States and Canada

require a 4-year college degree before medical school. They want people with

a broad knowledge base and good problem solving skills. The British medical

schools begin right out of high school and are only 6 years in length

(instead of the US 8). As they say in emergency medicine, it is not the

test--it is the training.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

This thinking is that of a tradesman or technician--not a professional.

Anybody can be trained to do anything. Sure you can take the SLAM course and

learn about all of the different airways. But, the better paramedic will

understand the pathophysiology, the disease course, and will intervene

before the patient requires a difficult airway. You can read the single

chapter on ethics in a paramedic textbook and learn just enough to know

general concepts--and know nothing about etcal problem solving--or you can

take a course and learn the discipline. You can struggle to learn how to

mutliply fractions and memorize some formula or you can take a course and

really understand what is going on. That is why the United States and Canada

require a 4-year college degree before medical school. They want people with

a broad knowledge base and good problem solving skills. The British medical

schools begin right out of high school and are only 6 years in length

(instead of the US 8). As they say in emergency medicine, it is not the

test--it is the training.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

This thinking is that of a tradesman or technician--not a professional.

Anybody can be trained to do anything. Sure you can take the SLAM course and

learn about all of the different airways. But, the better paramedic will

understand the pathophysiology, the disease course, and will intervene

before the patient requires a difficult airway. You can read the single

chapter on ethics in a paramedic textbook and learn just enough to know

general concepts--and know nothing about etcal problem solving--or you can

take a course and learn the discipline. You can struggle to learn how to

mutliply fractions and memorize some formula or you can take a course and

really understand what is going on. That is why the United States and Canada

require a 4-year college degree before medical school. They want people with

a broad knowledge base and good problem solving skills. The British medical

schools begin right out of high school and are only 6 years in length

(instead of the US 8). As they say in emergency medicine, it is not the

test--it is the training.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

when does registration begin?

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Is it too late to want to go back to the church and have a

Thanksgiving

dinner that couldn't be beat. . . ?

>>> kenneth.navarro@... 12/6/2004 1:35:59 PM >>>

And then there were three...

" And if three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people

walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They

may think it's an organization. And can you imagine fifty people a

day,I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's

Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may think it's a

movement. " - Arlo Guthrie

Kenny Navarro

>>

Also, I would much rather have someone who has formal training in an

advanced procedure performing that procedure on me, as opposed to

someone who merely has his medical director's permission. <<

[Guest guest]

when does registration begin?

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Is it too late to want to go back to the church and have a

Thanksgiving

dinner that couldn't be beat. . . ?

>>> kenneth.navarro@... 12/6/2004 1:35:59 PM >>>

And then there were three...

" And if three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people

walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They

may think it's an organization. And can you imagine fifty people a

day,I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's

Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may think it's a

movement. " - Arlo Guthrie

Kenny Navarro

>>

Also, I would much rather have someone who has formal training in an

advanced procedure performing that procedure on me, as opposed to

someone who merely has his medical director's permission. <<

[Guest guest]

when does registration begin?

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Is it too late to want to go back to the church and have a

Thanksgiving

dinner that couldn't be beat. . . ?

>>> kenneth.navarro@... 12/6/2004 1:35:59 PM >>>

And then there were three...

" And if three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people

walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They

may think it's an organization. And can you imagine fifty people a

day,I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's

Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may think it's a

movement. " - Arlo Guthrie

Kenny Navarro

>>

Also, I would much rather have someone who has formal training in an

advanced procedure performing that procedure on me, as opposed to

someone who merely has his medical director's permission. <<

[Guest guest]

Graham [crysmed1@...] writes:

> it would be beneficial for everyone to know your level of

> certification, service affiliation and educational background.

> I feel that this knowing this information would lend validity

> to your position.

THANK YOU AARON!!!

I really wish EVERYONE posting to this or any list would sign the message.

You and I may know who someone is from the email address, but what about the

new subscribers?

Please folks, please sign your message with a minimum first and last name,

and give us a little idea of your credentials.

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the

customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

~~ Max Forman ~~

Don't Miss EMStock 2005

www.EMStock.com

May 20 - 22 2005

[Guest guest]

Graham [crysmed1@...] writes:

> it would be beneficial for everyone to know your level of

> certification, service affiliation and educational background.

> I feel that this knowing this information would lend validity

> to your position.

THANK YOU AARON!!!

I really wish EVERYONE posting to this or any list would sign the message.

You and I may know who someone is from the email address, but what about the

new subscribers?

Please folks, please sign your message with a minimum first and last name,

and give us a little idea of your credentials.

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the

customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

~~ Max Forman ~~

Don't Miss EMStock 2005

www.EMStock.com

May 20 - 22 2005

[Guest guest]

Graham [crysmed1@...] writes:

> it would be beneficial for everyone to know your level of

> certification, service affiliation and educational background.

> I feel that this knowing this information would lend validity

> to your position.

THANK YOU AARON!!!

I really wish EVERYONE posting to this or any list would sign the message.

You and I may know who someone is from the email address, but what about the

new subscribers?

Please folks, please sign your message with a minimum first and last name,

and give us a little idea of your credentials.

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the

customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

~~ Max Forman ~~

Don't Miss EMStock 2005

www.EMStock.com

May 20 - 22 2005

[Guest guest]

" EMSAT opposes the imposition of any requirement that limits advanced

paramedic practice to those persons with a college degree in EMS. "

EMSAT meant this portion of the statement to apply only to " advanced

paramedic practice " , as opposed to ALL paramedic practice, and to

" college degree(s) in EMS " as opposed to college degrees in general.

I hope this clear up any confusion regarding EMSAT and the National

Scope of Practice.

Sincerely,

Randell Pitts

Secretary

EMS Association of Texas

Mr. Pitts, it occurs to me it if EMSAT clearly states its position from

the start, it would not have to issue clarifications via a list server.

.. .

Rick LaChance

[Guest guest]

" EMSAT opposes the imposition of any requirement that limits advanced

paramedic practice to those persons with a college degree in EMS. "

EMSAT meant this portion of the statement to apply only to " advanced

paramedic practice " , as opposed to ALL paramedic practice, and to

" college degree(s) in EMS " as opposed to college degrees in general.

I hope this clear up any confusion regarding EMSAT and the National

Scope of Practice.

Sincerely,

Randell Pitts

Secretary

EMS Association of Texas

Mr. Pitts, it occurs to me it if EMSAT clearly states its position from

the start, it would not have to issue clarifications via a list server.

.. .

Rick LaChance

[Guest guest]

" EMSAT opposes the imposition of any requirement that limits advanced

paramedic practice to those persons with a college degree in EMS. "

EMSAT meant this portion of the statement to apply only to " advanced

paramedic practice " , as opposed to ALL paramedic practice, and to

" college degree(s) in EMS " as opposed to college degrees in general.

I hope this clear up any confusion regarding EMSAT and the National

Scope of Practice.

Sincerely,

Randell Pitts

Secretary

EMS Association of Texas

Mr. Pitts, it occurs to me it if EMSAT clearly states its position from

the start, it would not have to issue clarifications via a list server.

.. .

Rick LaChance

[Guest guest]

Rick,

While I find myself somewhat in disagreement with the EMSAT position, I was

not at all confused by the statement you mention. Perhaps that is because I

know the people involved in drafting that statement and know there personal

position regarding the need for education. I've voiced my disagreement to

the EMSAT board and have been assured that they will revisit the statement

at their next meeting.

Mr. Pitts, I think, issued the clarification as a courtesy and for your

benefit.

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" The vanity of teaching doth oft tempt a man to forget that he is a

blockhead. "

~~ Saville, Marquis of Halifax ~~

Don't Miss EMStock 2005

www.EMStock.com

May 20-22 2005

________________________________

From: LaChance

Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:56 AM

To:

Subject: RE: Re: Scope of Practice Questions

" EMSAT opposes the imposition of any requirement that limits

advanced

paramedic practice to those persons with a college degree in EMS. "

EMSAT meant this portion of the statement to apply only to " advanced

paramedic practice " , as opposed to ALL paramedic practice, and to

" college degree(s) in EMS " as opposed to college degrees in general.

I hope this clear up any confusion regarding EMSAT and the National

Scope of Practice.

Sincerely,

Randell Pitts

Secretary

EMS Association of Texas

Mr. Pitts, it occurs to me it if EMSAT clearly states its position

from

the start, it would not have to issue clarifications via a list

server.

. .

Rick LaChance

[Guest guest]

Rick,

While I find myself somewhat in disagreement with the EMSAT position, I was

not at all confused by the statement you mention. Perhaps that is because I

know the people involved in drafting that statement and know there personal

position regarding the need for education. I've voiced my disagreement to

the EMSAT board and have been assured that they will revisit the statement

at their next meeting.

Mr. Pitts, I think, issued the clarification as a courtesy and for your

benefit.

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" The vanity of teaching doth oft tempt a man to forget that he is a

blockhead. "

~~ Saville, Marquis of Halifax ~~

Don't Miss EMStock 2005

www.EMStock.com

May 20-22 2005

________________________________

From: LaChance

Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:56 AM

To:

Subject: RE: Re: Scope of Practice Questions

" EMSAT opposes the imposition of any requirement that limits

advanced

paramedic practice to those persons with a college degree in EMS. "

EMSAT meant this portion of the statement to apply only to " advanced

paramedic practice " , as opposed to ALL paramedic practice, and to

" college degree(s) in EMS " as opposed to college degrees in general.

I hope this clear up any confusion regarding EMSAT and the National

Scope of Practice.

Sincerely,

Randell Pitts

Secretary

EMS Association of Texas

Mr. Pitts, it occurs to me it if EMSAT clearly states its position

from

the start, it would not have to issue clarifications via a list

server.

. .

Rick LaChance

[Guest guest]

Rick,

While I find myself somewhat in disagreement with the EMSAT position, I was

not at all confused by the statement you mention. Perhaps that is because I

know the people involved in drafting that statement and know there personal

position regarding the need for education. I've voiced my disagreement to

the EMSAT board and have been assured that they will revisit the statement

at their next meeting.

Mr. Pitts, I think, issued the clarification as a courtesy and for your

benefit.

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" The vanity of teaching doth oft tempt a man to forget that he is a

blockhead. "

~~ Saville, Marquis of Halifax ~~

Don't Miss EMStock 2005

www.EMStock.com

May 20-22 2005

________________________________

From: LaChance

Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:56 AM

To:

Subject: RE: Re: Scope of Practice Questions

" EMSAT opposes the imposition of any requirement that limits

advanced

paramedic practice to those persons with a college degree in EMS. "

EMSAT meant this portion of the statement to apply only to " advanced

paramedic practice " , as opposed to ALL paramedic practice, and to

" college degree(s) in EMS " as opposed to college degrees in general.

I hope this clear up any confusion regarding EMSAT and the National

Scope of Practice.

Sincerely,

Randell Pitts

Secretary

EMS Association of Texas

Mr. Pitts, it occurs to me it if EMSAT clearly states its position

from

the start, it would not have to issue clarifications via a list

server.

. .

Rick LaChance

[Guest guest]

I have read so many post reguarding the national SOP that it is now running out

my ears. First we will not change the SOP here. Those of us that heard Greg

Margolis understood that this is just the first draft. and to understand what

Dr. Bledso says that we are behing other nations such as Canada. Why don't we

here in Texas set up our own group of practicioners asd offer a counter proposal

to this first draft.

We here in Texas have some of the brightest minds in EMS, and some of the best

practicioners. We also have some of the best educators, so what is to stop us

from making a counter offer?

Just and old retired medic's '02 cents wroth.

Nacogdoches County Education, retired

Board Member EMSAT

Wayne Edgin wrote:

[Guest guest]

I have read so many post reguarding the national SOP that it is now running out

my ears. First we will not change the SOP here. Those of us that heard Greg

Margolis understood that this is just the first draft. and to understand what

Dr. Bledso says that we are behing other nations such as Canada. Why don't we

here in Texas set up our own group of practicioners asd offer a counter proposal

to this first draft.

We here in Texas have some of the brightest minds in EMS, and some of the best

practicioners. We also have some of the best educators, so what is to stop us

from making a counter offer?

Just and old retired medic's '02 cents wroth.

Nacogdoches County Education, retired

Board Member EMSAT

Wayne Edgin wrote:

[Guest guest]

I agree with Dr Bledsoe. If I want to be a physician, then the

education needs to come first and med school second. But correct me if

I'm wrong. EMS training was not designed to make physicians out of us.

We were being trained to provide assessment and stabilization skills to

improve the survivability of the patient prior and during transport to

an appropriate medical facility so the physicians and nurses can fix the

problem. If we desire or are required to obtain the same educational

level of the physician, then why not become a physician. The purpose of

EMS is not to place more physicians in the field, but to assist the

physicians and nurses by providing enough education and training to

laypersons to provide initial treatment. Currently, we are not Docs in

a Box! When we head that direction, then let's put PA's on the

ambulances and back them up with EMT's. Do away with Paramedics

entirely.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster