RE: Re: Scope of Practice Questions

[Guest guest]

I agree with Dr Bledsoe. If I want to be a physician, then the

education needs to come first and med school second. But correct me if

I'm wrong. EMS training was not designed to make physicians out of us.

We were being trained to provide assessment and stabilization skills to

improve the survivability of the patient prior and during transport to

an appropriate medical facility so the physicians and nurses can fix the

problem. If we desire or are required to obtain the same educational

level of the physician, then why not become a physician. The purpose of

EMS is not to place more physicians in the field, but to assist the

physicians and nurses by providing enough education and training to

laypersons to provide initial treatment. Currently, we are not Docs in

a Box! When we head that direction, then let's put PA's on the

ambulances and back them up with EMT's. Do away with Paramedics

entirely.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

I agree with Dr Bledsoe. If I want to be a physician, then the

education needs to come first and med school second. But correct me if

I'm wrong. EMS training was not designed to make physicians out of us.

We were being trained to provide assessment and stabilization skills to

improve the survivability of the patient prior and during transport to

an appropriate medical facility so the physicians and nurses can fix the

problem. If we desire or are required to obtain the same educational

level of the physician, then why not become a physician. The purpose of

EMS is not to place more physicians in the field, but to assist the

physicians and nurses by providing enough education and training to

laypersons to provide initial treatment. Currently, we are not Docs in

a Box! When we head that direction, then let's put PA's on the

ambulances and back them up with EMT's. Do away with Paramedics

entirely.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

Sure Mr. Graham,

Here's a little bit about me.

EMT-B (#150536/B1242116), finished with my Paramedic classroom stuff last

May, in the middle of my fourth year of college going full time. I'm on the

" longer " graduation track due to the fact that I was unsuspectingly lured

into this mess we call EMS after taking an EMT-B class as an elective a

couple of years ago. After that, there was no turning back. I started in

May of '03 with Nueces County E.S.D. #4 (which borders Mike Hatfield's

service), and I now work full time for them. Currently having my doubts

about a future career in medicine due to the fact that Organic Chemistry

really hates me (and I hate it).

As a side note, I tend to judge comments and arguments on their merits (or

lack thereof), but it is certainly appropriate to know who is making those

comments and I apologize for jumping into the fray without first offering a

more proper introduction.

- Lancaster

RE: Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Mr. Lancaster,

This is in no way a personal attach, but I do thnk it would be beneficial

for everyone to know your level of certification, service afilliation and

educational background. I feel that this knowing this information would

lend validity to your position.

Graham

EMT-Intermediate

Shackelford County EMS

Albany, TX

[Guest guest]

Sure Mr. Graham,

Here's a little bit about me.

EMT-B (#150536/B1242116), finished with my Paramedic classroom stuff last

May, in the middle of my fourth year of college going full time. I'm on the

" longer " graduation track due to the fact that I was unsuspectingly lured

into this mess we call EMS after taking an EMT-B class as an elective a

couple of years ago. After that, there was no turning back. I started in

May of '03 with Nueces County E.S.D. #4 (which borders Mike Hatfield's

service), and I now work full time for them. Currently having my doubts

about a future career in medicine due to the fact that Organic Chemistry

really hates me (and I hate it).

As a side note, I tend to judge comments and arguments on their merits (or

lack thereof), but it is certainly appropriate to know who is making those

comments and I apologize for jumping into the fray without first offering a

more proper introduction.

- Lancaster

RE: Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Mr. Lancaster,

This is in no way a personal attach, but I do thnk it would be beneficial

for everyone to know your level of certification, service afilliation and

educational background. I feel that this knowing this information would

lend validity to your position.

Graham

EMT-Intermediate

Shackelford County EMS

Albany, TX

[Guest guest]

Sure Mr. Graham,

Here's a little bit about me.

EMT-B (#150536/B1242116), finished with my Paramedic classroom stuff last

May, in the middle of my fourth year of college going full time. I'm on the

" longer " graduation track due to the fact that I was unsuspectingly lured

into this mess we call EMS after taking an EMT-B class as an elective a

couple of years ago. After that, there was no turning back. I started in

May of '03 with Nueces County E.S.D. #4 (which borders Mike Hatfield's

service), and I now work full time for them. Currently having my doubts

about a future career in medicine due to the fact that Organic Chemistry

really hates me (and I hate it).

As a side note, I tend to judge comments and arguments on their merits (or

lack thereof), but it is certainly appropriate to know who is making those

comments and I apologize for jumping into the fray without first offering a

more proper introduction.

- Lancaster

RE: Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Mr. Lancaster,

This is in no way a personal attach, but I do thnk it would be beneficial

for everyone to know your level of certification, service afilliation and

educational background. I feel that this knowing this information would

lend validity to your position.

Graham

EMT-Intermediate

Shackelford County EMS

Albany, TX

[Guest guest]

Typically I don't respond to the posts, I read and think about what is

being said. In addition, I would never attempt to speak for others on

the list but in the context I think Dr. B's post was misunderstood. The

point I took away from it was not that the process in attempting to

replace paramedics with physicians but rather the attempt to train a

more well rounded paramedic...and based on some of the posts this would

seem like a VERY GOOD IDEA.

Lonnie Tarrant, LP, NREMT-P, AAS (and the rest of the alphabet)

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

Typically I don't respond to the posts, I read and think about what is

being said. In addition, I would never attempt to speak for others on

the list but in the context I think Dr. B's post was misunderstood. The

point I took away from it was not that the process in attempting to

replace paramedics with physicians but rather the attempt to train a

more well rounded paramedic...and based on some of the posts this would

seem like a VERY GOOD IDEA.

Lonnie Tarrant, LP, NREMT-P, AAS (and the rest of the alphabet)

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

Typically I don't respond to the posts, I read and think about what is

being said. In addition, I would never attempt to speak for others on

the list but in the context I think Dr. B's post was misunderstood. The

point I took away from it was not that the process in attempting to

replace paramedics with physicians but rather the attempt to train a

more well rounded paramedic...and based on some of the posts this would

seem like a VERY GOOD IDEA.

Lonnie Tarrant, LP, NREMT-P, AAS (and the rest of the alphabet)

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

Yeah! And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be

a physician. I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it

down as I have no desire to be a physician. I could if I wanted too,

but don't. Your missing the point, it doesn't take a college education

to be able to learn assessment skill, signs and symptoms that are

associated with the many medical emergencies and injuries that we will

face. My eyes work just fine and the physicians we work under expect us

to work within our knowledge and skills. They do not expect us to or

want us to be physicians. Medical Directors or at least the ones I know

who direct many of the EMS system in the San , Metroplex and

surrounding counties want EMS personnel to do their job (assess,

stabilize, and transport the patient that warrant transport to the

appropriate facility). This whole discussion is again, what is our job,

decide the level of education needed to perform the job and do it. If

you are able to obtain additional education, that is icing on the cake.

Don't kill an EMS system that is providing good prehospital emergency

care in the process of developing this Utopian EMS System that no one

can afford or/are willing to pay for.

As I said in previous comments. If the EMS personnel (most of us) are

required to go back to school just to do what we already are doing and

doing well, we are going to go on and become RNs or physicians and then

we have lost some really excellent personnel making the pool smaller.

There is no money for the upgrades and whether you like it or not money

is what makes the world go round. We wouldn't be having this dicussion

if the money was there both for the education requirements and the

personnel once educated. We would all be say " Right On " , Let' Go, " Get

R Done " .

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

That's the wrong attitude to take. Since we work under a medical

physician's license, we are essentially the " eyes " and " ears " of the

physician who cannot physically be on every call. Now I don't know

about you, but if a doctor is going to extend me the courtesy of

practicing medicine under their license, I feel I should know everything

I can in order to make the right decisions for my patients.

-Alfonso R. Ochoa

> > Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

> that has

> > taken place.

> >

> > Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

> argument

> > from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

> can take

> > a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> > knowledge and skill. "

> >

> > I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> > times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want

> > to be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want

> > to do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to

> > require

> education

> > instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> > vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

> would

> > have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> > professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> > ability to continue providing the level of care that they require.

> > I am not

> unsympathetic to

> > this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

> exaggerated), but I

> > think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> > commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

> continue to

> > scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> > qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle

> > continues.

> >

> > I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> > Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

> always go

> > something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am

> > not against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great

> > idea as

> long as

> > they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

> is always

> > some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

> When

> > you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

> degree for

> > future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

> RN's and

> > RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

> >

> > - Lancaster

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah! And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be

a physician. I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it

down as I have no desire to be a physician. I could if I wanted too,

but don't. Your missing the point, it doesn't take a college education

to be able to learn assessment skill, signs and symptoms that are

associated with the many medical emergencies and injuries that we will

face. My eyes work just fine and the physicians we work under expect us

to work within our knowledge and skills. They do not expect us to or

want us to be physicians. Medical Directors or at least the ones I know

who direct many of the EMS system in the San , Metroplex and

surrounding counties want EMS personnel to do their job (assess,

stabilize, and transport the patient that warrant transport to the

appropriate facility). This whole discussion is again, what is our job,

decide the level of education needed to perform the job and do it. If

you are able to obtain additional education, that is icing on the cake.

Don't kill an EMS system that is providing good prehospital emergency

care in the process of developing this Utopian EMS System that no one

can afford or/are willing to pay for.

As I said in previous comments. If the EMS personnel (most of us) are

required to go back to school just to do what we already are doing and

doing well, we are going to go on and become RNs or physicians and then

we have lost some really excellent personnel making the pool smaller.

There is no money for the upgrades and whether you like it or not money

is what makes the world go round. We wouldn't be having this dicussion

if the money was there both for the education requirements and the

personnel once educated. We would all be say " Right On " , Let' Go, " Get

R Done " .

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

That's the wrong attitude to take. Since we work under a medical

physician's license, we are essentially the " eyes " and " ears " of the

physician who cannot physically be on every call. Now I don't know

about you, but if a doctor is going to extend me the courtesy of

practicing medicine under their license, I feel I should know everything

I can in order to make the right decisions for my patients.

-Alfonso R. Ochoa

> > Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

> that has

> > taken place.

> >

> > Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

> argument

> > from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

> can take

> > a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> > knowledge and skill. "

> >

> > I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> > times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want

> > to be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want

> > to do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to

> > require

> education

> > instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> > vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

> would

> > have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> > professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> > ability to continue providing the level of care that they require.

> > I am not

> unsympathetic to

> > this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

> exaggerated), but I

> > think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> > commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

> continue to

> > scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> > qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle

> > continues.

> >

> > I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> > Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

> always go

> > something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am

> > not against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great

> > idea as

> long as

> > they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

> is always

> > some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

> When

> > you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

> degree for

> > future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

> RN's and

> > RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

> >

> > - Lancaster

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah! And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be

a physician. I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it

down as I have no desire to be a physician. I could if I wanted too,

but don't. Your missing the point, it doesn't take a college education

to be able to learn assessment skill, signs and symptoms that are

associated with the many medical emergencies and injuries that we will

face. My eyes work just fine and the physicians we work under expect us

to work within our knowledge and skills. They do not expect us to or

want us to be physicians. Medical Directors or at least the ones I know

who direct many of the EMS system in the San , Metroplex and

surrounding counties want EMS personnel to do their job (assess,

stabilize, and transport the patient that warrant transport to the

appropriate facility). This whole discussion is again, what is our job,

decide the level of education needed to perform the job and do it. If

you are able to obtain additional education, that is icing on the cake.

Don't kill an EMS system that is providing good prehospital emergency

care in the process of developing this Utopian EMS System that no one

can afford or/are willing to pay for.

As I said in previous comments. If the EMS personnel (most of us) are

required to go back to school just to do what we already are doing and

doing well, we are going to go on and become RNs or physicians and then

we have lost some really excellent personnel making the pool smaller.

There is no money for the upgrades and whether you like it or not money

is what makes the world go round. We wouldn't be having this dicussion

if the money was there both for the education requirements and the

personnel once educated. We would all be say " Right On " , Let' Go, " Get

R Done " .

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

That's the wrong attitude to take. Since we work under a medical

physician's license, we are essentially the " eyes " and " ears " of the

physician who cannot physically be on every call. Now I don't know

about you, but if a doctor is going to extend me the courtesy of

practicing medicine under their license, I feel I should know everything

I can in order to make the right decisions for my patients.

-Alfonso R. Ochoa

> > Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

> that has

> > taken place.

> >

> > Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

> argument

> > from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

> can take

> > a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> > knowledge and skill. "

> >

> > I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> > times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want

> > to be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want

> > to do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to

> > require

> education

> > instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> > vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

> would

> > have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> > professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> > ability to continue providing the level of care that they require.

> > I am not

> unsympathetic to

> > this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

> exaggerated), but I

> > think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> > commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

> continue to

> > scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> > qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle

> > continues.

> >

> > I am also beginning to question how much we really value education.

> > Of course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

> always go

> > something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am

> > not against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great

> > idea as

> long as

> > they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

> is always

> > some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

> When

> > you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

> degree for

> > future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

> RN's and

> > RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

> >

> > - Lancaster

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nobody is " invited to attend medical school. " It is an arduous 2-year

process beginning with the medical college admissions test, and then the

initial application, and then a secondary application, letters from your

undergraduate pre-med committee, letters from professors and then interviews

Finally, schools rank who they want and students rank where they want to go.

The put it in the computer and the highest match gets in. In Texas 90% of

students have to be Texas residents (for all 8 medical schools). Nobody is

invited to attend. And, SMU has never had a medical school...perhaps you

were thinking of the Dallas Institute of Mortuary Science in Dallas--a

similar institution to SMU's medical school.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

>> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be a

physician. <<

If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician. (Regardless of what

they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

have no desire to be a physician. <<

Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

school.

[Guest guest]

Nobody is " invited to attend medical school. " It is an arduous 2-year

process beginning with the medical college admissions test, and then the

initial application, and then a secondary application, letters from your

undergraduate pre-med committee, letters from professors and then interviews

Finally, schools rank who they want and students rank where they want to go.

The put it in the computer and the highest match gets in. In Texas 90% of

students have to be Texas residents (for all 8 medical schools). Nobody is

invited to attend. And, SMU has never had a medical school...perhaps you

were thinking of the Dallas Institute of Mortuary Science in Dallas--a

similar institution to SMU's medical school.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

>> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be a

physician. <<

If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician. (Regardless of what

they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

have no desire to be a physician. <<

Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

school.

[Guest guest]

Well, whether you like it or not, I received a letter from a medical

school in the Dallas area. It was in 1989. I initially said it was

SMU. That is who I thought it was from. I wasn't interested and threw

the letter away. I call it an invitation ask they were asking me to

look seriously at their school. All of the requirements are probably

still required, but I received an unsolicited letter from a medical

school. I guess my grades were good enough or maybe they just needed

more students. I don't know or care. But, since you didn't receive the

letter, you really aren't qualified to make that statement.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

>> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be

a physician. <<

If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician. (Regardless of

what they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

have no desire to be a physician. <<

Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

school.

[Guest guest]

Well, whether you like it or not, I received a letter from a medical

school in the Dallas area. It was in 1989. I initially said it was

SMU. That is who I thought it was from. I wasn't interested and threw

the letter away. I call it an invitation ask they were asking me to

look seriously at their school. All of the requirements are probably

still required, but I received an unsolicited letter from a medical

school. I guess my grades were good enough or maybe they just needed

more students. I don't know or care. But, since you didn't receive the

letter, you really aren't qualified to make that statement.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

>> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be

a physician. <<

If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician. (Regardless of

what they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

have no desire to be a physician. <<

Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

school.

[Guest guest]

Well, whether you like it or not, I received a letter from a medical

school in the Dallas area. It was in 1989. I initially said it was

SMU. That is who I thought it was from. I wasn't interested and threw

the letter away. I call it an invitation ask they were asking me to

look seriously at their school. All of the requirements are probably

still required, but I received an unsolicited letter from a medical

school. I guess my grades were good enough or maybe they just needed

more students. I don't know or care. But, since you didn't receive the

letter, you really aren't qualified to make that statement.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

>> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be

a physician. <<

If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician. (Regardless of

what they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

have no desire to be a physician. <<

Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

school.

[Guest guest]

Lonnie: I also believe that you missed the point that I was trying to

make. If we as EMT-Paramedic and Lic-Paramedics who are already doing

many of the skills/procedures that the new NSOP is going to limit to

only the Paramedic Advanced want to continue with these skills and

procedures that our Medical Directors (physicians) have cleared us on

and has confidence in our abilities to perform them will be a thing of

the past.

My meaning was if I going to have to back to school and obtain another

BS in Paramedicine or EMS then why spend the time there, go back to

school and become a physician or nurse and truly increase ones income.

The funds are not there for this proposal. EMS isn't making the money

to pay for all of this. You can say, it's for the professionalism, know

more, be more, etc. I say learn your job, do it well and if you desire

additional knowledge go for it. Don't kill the systems we have in place

for the blind piece of pie in the sky that makes one think you're a

better Paramedic because you have a 4 year college degree in EMS. The

statement- " This thinking is of a tradesman or technician " -No Joke-What

does EMT mean. Emergency Medical Technician

(Basic/Intermediate/Paramedic). The Licensed Paramedic requires a

certain amount of college. If we are pushing for EMS to become more

than it is-fine, let's change it. But as said earlier, it takes

enormous amounts of money and time to get there.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education. Of

> course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

Lonnie: I also believe that you missed the point that I was trying to

make. If we as EMT-Paramedic and Lic-Paramedics who are already doing

many of the skills/procedures that the new NSOP is going to limit to

only the Paramedic Advanced want to continue with these skills and

procedures that our Medical Directors (physicians) have cleared us on

and has confidence in our abilities to perform them will be a thing of

the past.

My meaning was if I going to have to back to school and obtain another

BS in Paramedicine or EMS then why spend the time there, go back to

school and become a physician or nurse and truly increase ones income.

The funds are not there for this proposal. EMS isn't making the money

to pay for all of this. You can say, it's for the professionalism, know

more, be more, etc. I say learn your job, do it well and if you desire

additional knowledge go for it. Don't kill the systems we have in place

for the blind piece of pie in the sky that makes one think you're a

better Paramedic because you have a 4 year college degree in EMS. The

statement- " This thinking is of a tradesman or technician " -No Joke-What

does EMT mean. Emergency Medical Technician

(Basic/Intermediate/Paramedic). The Licensed Paramedic requires a

certain amount of college. If we are pushing for EMS to become more

than it is-fine, let's change it. But as said earlier, it takes

enormous amounts of money and time to get there.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education. Of

> course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

Lonnie: I also believe that you missed the point that I was trying to

make. If we as EMT-Paramedic and Lic-Paramedics who are already doing

many of the skills/procedures that the new NSOP is going to limit to

only the Paramedic Advanced want to continue with these skills and

procedures that our Medical Directors (physicians) have cleared us on

and has confidence in our abilities to perform them will be a thing of

the past.

My meaning was if I going to have to back to school and obtain another

BS in Paramedicine or EMS then why spend the time there, go back to

school and become a physician or nurse and truly increase ones income.

The funds are not there for this proposal. EMS isn't making the money

to pay for all of this. You can say, it's for the professionalism, know

more, be more, etc. I say learn your job, do it well and if you desire

additional knowledge go for it. Don't kill the systems we have in place

for the blind piece of pie in the sky that makes one think you're a

better Paramedic because you have a 4 year college degree in EMS. The

statement- " This thinking is of a tradesman or technician " -No Joke-What

does EMT mean. Emergency Medical Technician

(Basic/Intermediate/Paramedic). The Licensed Paramedic requires a

certain amount of college. If we are pushing for EMS to become more

than it is-fine, let's change it. But as said earlier, it takes

enormous amounts of money and time to get there.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Well said .

-aro

> Sorry I haven't been around to respond to all of the fear-mongering

that has

> taken place.

>

> Someone made a comment, and it really represents the crux of the

argument

> from my perspective. They said, " Why go to a 4 year degree whebn I

can take

> a S.L.A.M. (steet level airway maintenance) course and get the same

> knowledge and skill. "

>

> I have heard people refer to themselves as " professionals " several

> times while this issue was being discussed. It seems that we want to

> be considered professionals, but on the other hand, we don't want to

> do the things that professionals do. Namely, we don't want to require

education

> instead of " training " . Right now, EMS is NOT a profession. It is a

> vocation. There have been many arguments about the effect that this

would

> have on rural EMS, essentially saying that instituting real

> professional standards would have a detrimental effect on their

> ability to continue providing the level of care that they require. I

> am not

unsympathetic to

> this (even though I believe some of the claims have been

exaggerated), but I

> think the problem is circular. There is no incentive for the county

> commissioners to fork over more money as long as rural systems

continue to

> scrape by. Rural systems will continue to suffer shortages of

> qualified people because there is no money. And the cycle continues.

>

> I am also beginning to question how much we really value education. Of

> course, everyone says they are in favor of it. Yet the comments

always go

> something like this, " I am all for more education, BUT... " , " I am not

> against more education, BUT " . Everybody thinks it's a great idea as

long as

> they don't have to put their money where their mouth is, and there

is always

> some caveat. And then you see comments like the one I quoted above.

When

> you have EMSAT opposing anything that requires even an Associate

degree for

> future Paramedics, we need to quit expecting salaries comparable to

RN's and

> RT's and just be happy with our Wal-Mart Associate wage.

>

> - Lancaster

[Guest guest]

The burden of proof is on you, not me.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

>> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be

a physician. <<

If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician. (Regardless of

what they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

have no desire to be a physician. <<

Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

school.

[Guest guest]

The burden of proof is on you, not me.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

>> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be

a physician. <<

If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician. (Regardless of

what they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

have no desire to be a physician. <<

Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

school.

[Guest guest]

The burden of proof is on you, not me.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

http://www.bryanbledsoe.com

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

>> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as well be

a physician. <<

If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician. (Regardless of

what they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

have no desire to be a physician. <<

Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

school.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I'm just not use to someone calling me a liar. Really don't need

to prove anything either. Just think the NSOP as written is bad news

for Texas and any other state that has a large rural area to cover and

is doing the best job they can with the resources available. One thing

else that most of use the the nation need to realize. Each and every

state, county, city, and town have exactly the type of EMS system they

are willing to pay for. That payment is made either through taxes,

donations, fund raisers, and the people volunteering their time to

become educationed, trained, and then when called provide the service.

I just don't want us to go backwards.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Guys, don't let this thing get ugly. We need to be together on this,

you know the synergy thing? Don't get looped up in personalities and

semantics. It clouds our thinking.

>

> >> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

> obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as

well be

> a physician. <<

>

> If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician.

(Regardless of

> what they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>

>

> >> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

> have no desire to be a physician. <<

>

> Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

> school.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I'm just not use to someone calling me a liar. Really don't need

to prove anything either. Just think the NSOP as written is bad news

for Texas and any other state that has a large rural area to cover and

is doing the best job they can with the resources available. One thing

else that most of use the the nation need to realize. Each and every

state, county, city, and town have exactly the type of EMS system they

are willing to pay for. That payment is made either through taxes,

donations, fund raisers, and the people volunteering their time to

become educationed, trained, and then when called provide the service.

I just don't want us to go backwards.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Guys, don't let this thing get ugly. We need to be together on this,

you know the synergy thing? Don't get looped up in personalities and

semantics. It clouds our thinking.

>

> >> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

> obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as

well be

> a physician. <<

>

> If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician.

(Regardless of

> what they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>

>

> >> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

> have no desire to be a physician. <<

>

> Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

> school.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I'm just not use to someone calling me a liar. Really don't need

to prove anything either. Just think the NSOP as written is bad news

for Texas and any other state that has a large rural area to cover and

is doing the best job they can with the resources available. One thing

else that most of use the the nation need to realize. Each and every

state, county, city, and town have exactly the type of EMS system they

are willing to pay for. That payment is made either through taxes,

donations, fund raisers, and the people volunteering their time to

become educationed, trained, and then when called provide the service.

I just don't want us to go backwards.

BH

Re: Scope of Practice Questions

Guys, don't let this thing get ugly. We need to be together on this,

you know the synergy thing? Don't get looped up in personalities and

semantics. It clouds our thinking.

>

> >> And if I'm going to go to the trouble to know everything, and

> obtain the education required to be a physician, then I might as

well be

> a physician. <<

>

> If you knew everything, you'd be God - NOT a physician.

(Regardless of

> what they would have you believe, they are not the same.)

>

>

> >> I was invited to attend SMU's med school and turned it down as I

> have no desire to be a physician. <<

>

> Are you talking about SMU in Dallas? They don't have a medical

> school.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>