RE: Re: WoW! Inclusion is GOOD!

April 29, 2010

Listmembers,

First, thanks to everyone for participating in this discussion with

so many points of view from many different perspectives. This is what makes

the list strong.

Second, when my son was in a kindergarten cluster several moons

ago, I attended ACE meetings regularly, I was even something like the parent

representative for the North area. I mentioned at one meeting that I was

hoping my son would be going into the mainstream in first grade with a shadow

aka one-on-one aide. I was universally informed at that meeting (yes by both

the parents and teachers) that inclusion was great but only if the child was

high functioning enough not to need an aide, that an aide would be a crutch,

and that my son would become dependent on the aide and that was a bad thing.

I see that that attitude is still around, and it saddens me,

because it was so wrong in my son’s case, who did eventually become fully

included in gen ed with an aide, and for how many other children who never even

got the chance?

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of Diane Rosenstein

Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:55 AM

To: sList

Subject: Re: WoW! Inclusion is GOOD!

Are

you stating that an appropriate reason for segregation is to avoid our children

being " on stage, creating a show " ? Do you have arguments/debate

points a little stronger than that, or should I say WAY stronger

than that? There's so much research that indicates the absolute

positives of inclusion. Plus there's that IDEA law that says that

segregagtion is ONLY appropriate when it can be SHOWN (that is, it is must

first be attempted) that a child CANNOT be educated in the gen ed environment

given ALL the supports/services he requires to stay in that environment.

In

Broward, all kids with autism in preschool are automatically segregated.

Then the majority (at least from what I understand most) move onto

clusters. They are never even given a CHANCE at integration. So the

law is broken for each and every one of those students. How can it be

shown that a child CANNOT be educated in the gen ed environment when the

child was NOT IN THAT ENVIRONMENT for a school year, (or half a

school year, or even one month for Pete's sake!) (WITH appropriate

support).

To

" accomodate " the law, the School District twists the wording

into something similar that you used and that is " least restrictive, most

appropriate " . The law DOES NOT state this but instead states

" To the MAXIMUM EXTENT APPROPRIATE, children with disabilities are to be

educated with their non-disabled peers unless it can be shown that this CANNOT

be achieve satisfactorily " . There is no " unless the child is on

stage putting on a show " clause.

The

" show " is only temporary compared to the long-term significant

benefits of inclusion. Additionally, the person " on top of

them " is no more restrictive in a typical classroom than the person

" on top of them " in the segregated classroom environment.

The

School District may make it seem as if the " show " is something to be

hidden--kept away from typical children. In actuality, the

school's practice of widespread segregation...so much that its become

commonplace and acceptable..is where the REAL shame lies.

Additionally, learning

" prerequisite skills " is NOT law, NOT based on research, but

something that the school districts make up in order to save money.

PLease, show me where it states that " prerequisite skills " are

necessary OUTSIDE of school district literature. Additionally,

what social & communication & behavioral environment are the

children given when they are segregated? All the peers/role models are

similarly disabled! Isn't that senseless?

In

Broward County, inclusion is done when the child is high functioning.

That's discrimination and that's against the law PERIOD.

From

NICHY website:

" Since its earliest days, the law has displayed a strong preference for

children with disabilities to be educated alongside their peers without

disabilities, to the maximum

extent appropriate. It recognizes

that, in many cases, supplementary aids and services must be provided to

a child with a disability to enable him or her to be educated in the general

education classroom. Simply put, then, removal of a child with

disabilities from the regular education class may occur only if the

child cannot be satisfactorily educated in the regular educational environment with

the use of supplementary aids and services. " http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xLpv0sWSJSEJ:www.nichcy.org/educatechildren/iep/pages/extentofparticipation.aspx+to+the+maximum+extent+appropriate & cd=3 & hl=en & ct=clnk & gl=us

April 29, 2010

Sad to see that there are those who have a limited understanding of what it takes to make inclusion work. When inclusion is planned for and implemented correctly- That means the SUPPORTS that are needed for all involved (that means the target student, typical peers, educators and support staff) - the outcomes are ALWAYS beneficial to all. Inclusion with SUPPORT has better outcomes than any segregated environment. When research is published in peer reviewed journals it is subject to rigorous standards and review and it has to be objective, valid, reliable, and scientific.

Unfortunately there is a lot of "research" out there that it's authors say is scientific and valid but is not in published peer reviewed journals. That type of "self-proclaimed" research (often from those who are md's & phd's- which gives the appearance of validity) sometimes seems to overshadow and taint valid research and real information about inclusion! Bottom line inclusion works and improves quality of life when it's done right!

Nila

To: sList From: floridalizzie@...Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 23:15:02 -0700Subject: Re: Re: WoW! Inclusion is GOOD!

Hi,

the reason why Broward County has preschools for ASD kids and others with disabilities is because IDEA asks each state to provide early intervention for those diagnosed with a disability. The county used to have Head Start for kids without disabilities who were considered "at risk". Other than that, our government has not until VPK, offered free preschools to typical kids. This is not "backwards", but perhaps a question to all tax payers. Should VPK be available full time?

So far, the county has Place and Complex place classes for students who qualify for it, in other words kids who need early intervention. The public elem schools have made room for, and provide materials and staff for these classes. In addition, Baudhuin, a private preschool for ASD kids also provide early intervention free of charge to the parents.

You raise some good questions. It is important to understand how research works. The fact that you have only found research that promotes inclusion does not at all mean that inlusion is appropriate for all the kids. Far from it. Those who are interested in researching inclusion are most likely pro inclusion. Therefore, they will do projects that favour inclusion. That's all. The problem is that we have had to fight to get kids with disabilities to be included. This has been a huge battle for many parents. We have numerous court cases involving inclusion, and these cases has over time made it easier for our kids. I don't think I would support an organization that funds a research project that sets out to "prove" that inclusion does not work. Research is expensive. The autism Walk at Nova, for example, is a way to get people to pay money for research. I will not contribute financially to organizations that does stupid research projects.

Common sense and experience tells all of us that inclusion can have a negative impact on kids. Gen ed teachers and many principals believe that ASD kids should be taught in a self-contained class, and that's it. Inclusion means that the gen ed teacher gets more work and she often times do not feel qualified to teach our kids or deal with their off-task behavior(many surveys shows this).

If we want to see how our kids function is a typical setting, we need to have them interact with typical kids. How does your son handle typical settings with typical kids when you are not present? Is he OK in a room with 18 other peers and you are not there? Does he stand out? If so, how? Can he ask for things such as the bathroom? What happens when he does not get his way? Do you leave him with other family members or friends from time to time? If I were you, I would put my kid in a regular summer camp with all other typical kids this summer. I would see how he does there. You probably have all the answers to these questions already. Observing him interacting with peers and adults that are unfamiliar to him will tell you more about his needs than any research generated.

Liz

From: Diane Rosenstein <Wamtzembellsouth (DOT) net>Subject: Re: WoW! Inclusion is GOOD!To: sList Date: Wednesday, April 28, 2010, 3:57 AM

Mama:

Do you have any research on inclusion, especially preschoolers or kindergarten students with autism? Broward County only has SEGREGATED preschools for children with autism. (Except for those who are the very highest functioning) . I've only ever come across research where inclusion is GOOD, ESPECIALLY for preschoolers- -but there are exceptions.

I think Broward County has it a little backwards

The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get started.

April 29, 2010

Sad to see that there are those who have a limited understanding of what it takes to make inclusion work. When inclusion is planned for and implemented correctly- That means the SUPPORTS that are needed for all involved (that means the target student, typical peers, educators and support staff) - the outcomes are ALWAYS beneficial to all. Inclusion with SUPPORT has better outcomes than any segregated environment. When research is published in peer reviewed journals it is subject to rigorous standards and review and it has to be objective, valid, reliable, and scientific.

Unfortunately there is a lot of "research" out there that it's authors say is scientific and valid but is not in published peer reviewed journals. That type of "self-proclaimed" research (often from those who are md's & phd's- which gives the appearance of validity) sometimes seems to overshadow and taint valid research and real information about inclusion! Bottom line inclusion works and improves quality of life when it's done right!

Nila

To: sList From: floridalizzie@...Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 23:15:02 -0700Subject: Re: Re: WoW! Inclusion is GOOD!

Hi,

the reason why Broward County has preschools for ASD kids and others with disabilities is because IDEA asks each state to provide early intervention for those diagnosed with a disability. The county used to have Head Start for kids without disabilities who were considered "at risk". Other than that, our government has not until VPK, offered free preschools to typical kids. This is not "backwards", but perhaps a question to all tax payers. Should VPK be available full time?

So far, the county has Place and Complex place classes for students who qualify for it, in other words kids who need early intervention. The public elem schools have made room for, and provide materials and staff for these classes. In addition, Baudhuin, a private preschool for ASD kids also provide early intervention free of charge to the parents.

You raise some good questions. It is important to understand how research works. The fact that you have only found research that promotes inclusion does not at all mean that inlusion is appropriate for all the kids. Far from it. Those who are interested in researching inclusion are most likely pro inclusion. Therefore, they will do projects that favour inclusion. That's all. The problem is that we have had to fight to get kids with disabilities to be included. This has been a huge battle for many parents. We have numerous court cases involving inclusion, and these cases has over time made it easier for our kids. I don't think I would support an organization that funds a research project that sets out to "prove" that inclusion does not work. Research is expensive. The autism Walk at Nova, for example, is a way to get people to pay money for research. I will not contribute financially to organizations that does stupid research projects.

Common sense and experience tells all of us that inclusion can have a negative impact on kids. Gen ed teachers and many principals believe that ASD kids should be taught in a self-contained class, and that's it. Inclusion means that the gen ed teacher gets more work and she often times do not feel qualified to teach our kids or deal with their off-task behavior(many surveys shows this).

If we want to see how our kids function is a typical setting, we need to have them interact with typical kids. How does your son handle typical settings with typical kids when you are not present? Is he OK in a room with 18 other peers and you are not there? Does he stand out? If so, how? Can he ask for things such as the bathroom? What happens when he does not get his way? Do you leave him with other family members or friends from time to time? If I were you, I would put my kid in a regular summer camp with all other typical kids this summer. I would see how he does there. You probably have all the answers to these questions already. Observing him interacting with peers and adults that are unfamiliar to him will tell you more about his needs than any research generated.

Liz

From: Diane Rosenstein <Wamtzembellsouth (DOT) net>Subject: Re: WoW! Inclusion is GOOD!To: sList Date: Wednesday, April 28, 2010, 3:57 AM

Mama:

Do you have any research on inclusion, especially preschoolers or kindergarten students with autism? Broward County only has SEGREGATED preschools for children with autism. (Except for those who are the very highest functioning) . I've only ever come across research where inclusion is GOOD, ESPECIALLY for preschoolers- -but there are exceptions.

I think Broward County has it a little backwards

The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get started.

April 29, 2010

"Common sense and experience tells all of us that inclusion can have a negative impact on kids. Gen ed teachers and many principals believe that ASD kids should be taught in a self-contained class, and that's it.

Inclusion means that the gen ed teacher gets more work and she often times do not feel qualified to teach our kids or deal with their off-task behavior(many surveys shows this). "Not sure about it being "common sense" ... anyways...Gen ed teachers get more work because the county doesn't offer enough support. Gen ed teachers teaching in classrooms with special needs students should have ESE training. If one feels they're not qualified, they should turn down the assignment.What I get from most responses against inclusion is that it's seen as simply dumping a special needs students on a gen ed room and letting him be. That's not what it means to be included. It means to be in an environment with non-disabled peers WHILE getting the support necessary to succeed. Absolutely, there might be kids who are not able to handle a gen ed room, but until you put the student in that position, you won't know. That, or you have enough data (from the one student) showing that supported attempts were made in that regard and the outcome wasn't positive.Sending

an autistic kid to a typical summer camp or even VPK doesn't show anything about how they would do in an INCLUSIVE environment, because again, there will be none of the supports they might need.All of your question at the end refer to leaving an ASD child to fend for him/herself. That's not what inclusion is all about. You should ease the child into an environment. You offer the support they need and remove it accordingly.So, inclusion is GOOD, when done correctly.

From: Diane Rosenstein <Wamtzembellsouth (DOT) net>Subject: Re: WoW! Inclusion is GOOD!To: sList@ yahoogroups. comDate: Wednesday, April 28, 2010, 3:57 AM

Mama:

Do you have any research on inclusion, especially preschoolers or kindergarten students with autism? Broward County only has SEGREGATED preschools for children with autism. (Except for those who are the very highest functioning) . I've only ever come across research where inclusion is GOOD, ESPECIALLY for preschoolers- -but there are exceptions.

I think Broward County has it a little backwards

April 29, 2010

WELL SAID-----

Weinkle

Re: WoW! Inclusion is GOOD!

Are

you stating that an appropriate reason for segregation is to avoid our children

being "on stage, creating a show"? Do you have arguments/debate

points a little stronger than that, or should I say WAY stronger

than that? There's so much research that indicates the absolute

positives of inclusion. Plus there's that IDEA law that says that

segregagtion is ONLY appropriate when it can be SHOWN (that is, it is must

first be attempted) that a child CANNOT be educated in the gen ed environment

given ALL the supports/services he requires to stay in that environment.

In

Broward, all kids with autism in preschool are automatically segregated.

Then the majority (at least from what I understand most) move onto

clusters. They are never even given a CHANCE at integration. So the

law is broken for each and every one of those students. How can it be

shown that a child CANNOT be educated in the gen ed environment when the

child was NOT IN THAT ENVIRONMENT for a school year, (or half a

school year, or even one month for Pete's sake!) (WITH appropriate

support).

To

"accomodate" the law, the School District twists the wording

into something similar that you used and that is "least restrictive, most

appropriate". The law DOES NOT state this but instead states

"To the MAXIMUM EXTENT APPROPRIATE, children with disabilities are to be

educated with their non-disabled peers unless it can be shown that this CANNOT

be achieve satisfactorily". There is no "unless the child is on

stage putting on a show" clause.

The

"show" is only temporary compared to the long-term significant

benefits of inclusion. Additionally, the person "on top of

them" is no more restrictive in a typical classroom than the person

"on top of them" in the segregated classroom environment.

The

School District may make it seem as if the "show" is something to be

hidden--kept away from typical children. In actuality, the

school's practice of widespread segregation...so much that its become

commonplace and acceptable..is where the REAL shame lies.

Additionally, learning

"prerequisite skills" is NOT law, NOT based on research, but

something that the school districts make up in order to save money.

PLease, show me where it states that "prerequisite skills" are

necessary OUTSIDE of school district literature. Additionally,

what social & communication & behavioral environment are the

children given when they are segregated? All the peers/role models are

similarly disabled! Isn't that senseless?

In

Broward County, inclusion is done when the child is high functioning.

That's discrimination and that's against the law PERIOD.

From

NICHY website:

"Since its earliest days, the law has displayed a strong preference for

children with disabilities to be educated alongside their peers without

disabilities, to the maximum

extent appropriate. It recognizes

that, in many cases, supplementary aids and services must be provided to

a child with a disability to enable him or her to be educated in the general

education classroom. Simply put, then, removal of a child with

disabilities from the regular education class may occur only if the

child cannot be satisfactorily educated in the regular educational environment with

the use of supplementary aids and services." http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xLpv0sWSJSEJ:www.nichcy.org/educatechildren/iep/pages/extentofparticipation.aspx+to+the+maximum+extent+appropriate & cd=3 & hl=en & ct=clnk & gl=us

April 30, 2010

Thank you for sharing, .It's uplifting to hear from parents of older kids who have been there, done that... Helps keep one in check and gives an insight like no other.Your last sentence says it all, to me. Some kids didn't and others won't even have a chance at it.GabiSubject: RE: Re: WoW! Inclusion is GOOD!To: sList Date: Thursday, April 29, 2010, 12:12 PM

Listmembers, First, thanks to everyone for participating in this discussion with

so many points of view from many different perspectives. This is what makes

the list strong. Second, when my son was in a kindergarten cluster several moons

ago, I attended ACE meetings regularly, I was even something like the parent

representative for the North area. I mentioned at one meeting that I was

hoping my son would be going into the mainstream in first grade with a shadow

aka one-on-one aide. I was universally informed at that meeting (yes by both

the parents and teachers) that inclusion was great but only if the child was

high functioning enough not to need an aide, that an aide would be a crutch,

and that my son would become dependent on the aide and that was a bad thing. I see that that attitude is still around, and it saddens me,

because it was so wrong in my sonâ€™s case, who did eventually become fully

included in gen ed with an aide, and for how many other children who never even

got the chance?

From:

sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf

Of Diane Rosenstein

Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:55 AM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com