What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards (Long)]

[Guest guest]

Perhaps another point of view that might be considered is, " What's in it for

the public? " What is the expected impact on the public of our being

expected to continually do more with less. Is there a point of diminishing

returns?

How far can the EMS system be stretched before it breaks? Or is it broken

even now?

Donn has a great point about shortages being good, to a point. But what

level of crisis will the public endure before finally realizing how much it

depends on EMS?

What level of stress on the system will politicians accept before deciding to

do something? What level of stress will private company managers inflict

upon their employees and equipment before they decide that they cannot extract

any more from their employees?

Nurses in California just had a march on the State Capitol to protest

Ah-Nold's postponement of implementation of a rule that requires one nurse to

every 4

patients in hospitals. They mustered 1000 people and got nationwide

coverage.

There is obviously little public awareness of the Notorious Scope of Practice

Model or how it would affect care in rural areas. How can we do more to

educate them?

How can we show the public that EMS is in crisis, that there is a limit upon

what can be done with nothing, and that unless something changes, EMS as we

know it will decline in quality and services.

How many of you think that the overall quality of EMS services will improve

across the board over the next 5 years?

What if everyone woke up tomorrow and found that there was no EMS? Would

anybody notice?

g

>

> Brown   writes:

>

> > Right now what's wrong with it is that I'll be expected to continue

> > to do more with less. 

>

> So, for Brown the question remains " What's in it for me? "

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>      ~~ Vescere bracis meis ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> www.EMStock.com

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps another point of view that might be considered is, " What's in it for

the public? " What is the expected impact on the public of our being

expected to continually do more with less. Is there a point of diminishing

returns?

How far can the EMS system be stretched before it breaks? Or is it broken

even now?

Donn has a great point about shortages being good, to a point. But what

level of crisis will the public endure before finally realizing how much it

depends on EMS?

What level of stress on the system will politicians accept before deciding to

do something? What level of stress will private company managers inflict

upon their employees and equipment before they decide that they cannot extract

any more from their employees?

Nurses in California just had a march on the State Capitol to protest

Ah-Nold's postponement of implementation of a rule that requires one nurse to

every 4

patients in hospitals. They mustered 1000 people and got nationwide

coverage.

There is obviously little public awareness of the Notorious Scope of Practice

Model or how it would affect care in rural areas. How can we do more to

educate them?

How can we show the public that EMS is in crisis, that there is a limit upon

what can be done with nothing, and that unless something changes, EMS as we

know it will decline in quality and services.

How many of you think that the overall quality of EMS services will improve

across the board over the next 5 years?

What if everyone woke up tomorrow and found that there was no EMS? Would

anybody notice?

g

>

> Brown   writes:

>

> > Right now what's wrong with it is that I'll be expected to continue

> > to do more with less. 

>

> So, for Brown the question remains " What's in it for me? "

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>      ~~ Vescere bracis meis ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> www.EMStock.com

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps another point of view that might be considered is, " What's in it for

the public? " What is the expected impact on the public of our being

expected to continually do more with less. Is there a point of diminishing

returns?

How far can the EMS system be stretched before it breaks? Or is it broken

even now?

Donn has a great point about shortages being good, to a point. But what

level of crisis will the public endure before finally realizing how much it

depends on EMS?

What level of stress on the system will politicians accept before deciding to

do something? What level of stress will private company managers inflict

upon their employees and equipment before they decide that they cannot extract

any more from their employees?

Nurses in California just had a march on the State Capitol to protest

Ah-Nold's postponement of implementation of a rule that requires one nurse to

every 4

patients in hospitals. They mustered 1000 people and got nationwide

coverage.

There is obviously little public awareness of the Notorious Scope of Practice

Model or how it would affect care in rural areas. How can we do more to

educate them?

How can we show the public that EMS is in crisis, that there is a limit upon

what can be done with nothing, and that unless something changes, EMS as we

know it will decline in quality and services.

How many of you think that the overall quality of EMS services will improve

across the board over the next 5 years?

What if everyone woke up tomorrow and found that there was no EMS? Would

anybody notice?

g

>

> Brown   writes:

>

> > Right now what's wrong with it is that I'll be expected to continue

> > to do more with less. 

>

> So, for Brown the question remains " What's in it for me? "

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>      ~~ Vescere bracis meis ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> www.EMStock.com

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

For what it's worth, I know there are attorney positions (requiring an

additional 3 years of school after a bachelor's degree) than pay around

$32,000.

Being a paramedic, especially in an urban system, could easily pay more.

-Wes Ogilvie

[Guest guest]

For what it's worth, I know there are attorney positions (requiring an

additional 3 years of school after a bachelor's degree) than pay around

$32,000.

Being a paramedic, especially in an urban system, could easily pay more.

-Wes Ogilvie

[Guest guest]

For what it's worth, I know there are attorney positions (requiring an

additional 3 years of school after a bachelor's degree) than pay around

$32,000.

Being a paramedic, especially in an urban system, could easily pay more.

-Wes Ogilvie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/13/2004 10:44:45 PM Central Standard Time,

magnetass@... writes:

Are you willing to

take on a bachelors degree program knowing that you will top out at 12 or 13

bucks an hour for the remainder of your career, because you just LOVE being

an ambulance jockey?

There are people who take on bachelor degree programs knowing they wont get

paid anywhere near what they are worth---but do it to enter a field that they

love anyway.

Degrees are not designed only for those that want to make a lot of money.

Often young people give up their dreams and enter a degree program based on what

the salary will bring, or what family wants them to do, or friends think is

the " cool " get rich quick program--and then they're miserable. That's not what

education is about.

That said, there are no easy answers....fighting each other will solve

nothing.

In spite of the pay, we still have medics doing the job because they love it.

We've got medics volunteering to do it, in addition to holding down full

time jobs because they love it.

Sure, some will go into more " lucrative " fields.......but many will stay.

(And, if any BS programs will give credit for humanities, science, math,

psychology etc courses already taken and " locked " in a prior degree, some of us

may

even get the BS-EMS!)

Kathi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/13/2004 10:44:45 PM Central Standard Time,

magnetass@... writes:

Are you willing to

take on a bachelors degree program knowing that you will top out at 12 or 13

bucks an hour for the remainder of your career, because you just LOVE being

an ambulance jockey?

There are people who take on bachelor degree programs knowing they wont get

paid anywhere near what they are worth---but do it to enter a field that they

love anyway.

Degrees are not designed only for those that want to make a lot of money.

Often young people give up their dreams and enter a degree program based on what

the salary will bring, or what family wants them to do, or friends think is

the " cool " get rich quick program--and then they're miserable. That's not what

education is about.

That said, there are no easy answers....fighting each other will solve

nothing.

In spite of the pay, we still have medics doing the job because they love it.

We've got medics volunteering to do it, in addition to holding down full

time jobs because they love it.

Sure, some will go into more " lucrative " fields.......but many will stay.

(And, if any BS programs will give credit for humanities, science, math,

psychology etc courses already taken and " locked " in a prior degree, some of us

may

even get the BS-EMS!)

Kathi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/13/2004 10:44:45 PM Central Standard Time,

magnetass@... writes:

Are you willing to

take on a bachelors degree program knowing that you will top out at 12 or 13

bucks an hour for the remainder of your career, because you just LOVE being

an ambulance jockey?

There are people who take on bachelor degree programs knowing they wont get

paid anywhere near what they are worth---but do it to enter a field that they

love anyway.

Degrees are not designed only for those that want to make a lot of money.

Often young people give up their dreams and enter a degree program based on what

the salary will bring, or what family wants them to do, or friends think is

the " cool " get rich quick program--and then they're miserable. That's not what

education is about.

That said, there are no easy answers....fighting each other will solve

nothing.

In spite of the pay, we still have medics doing the job because they love it.

We've got medics volunteering to do it, in addition to holding down full

time jobs because they love it.

Sure, some will go into more " lucrative " fields.......but many will stay.

(And, if any BS programs will give credit for humanities, science, math,

psychology etc courses already taken and " locked " in a prior degree, some of us

may

even get the BS-EMS!)

Kathi

[Guest guest]

Brown writes:

> I'm not saying " what's in it for me " really....what I'm saying is that for

> the FUTURE of pre-hospital medicine, all this talk about increasing the

> educational requirements to bachelors degree level is totally moot unless

a

> munincipality someplace is willing to employ me and my shiny new bachelors

> degree at an annual salary commesurate with my education. The already

don't

> do that right now, so please explain to me what their motivation would be

> later after I've invested the effort to obtain my degree? There's already

a

> shortage of medics right now, but I don't see anybody offering increased

> wages to entice people to jump ship, or move up from basics and

> intermediates.

I'll answer your question with another. What exactly is wrong with having a

shortage of medics? The combination of internal efforts to raise nursing

educational standards and a shortage of nurses led to the pay rate you

mention in another post. It didn't happen overnight for them and it won't

for us either.

> BTW, what exactly is wrong with right now? Lots of us have mortgages and

car

> payments to pay right now, and have already invested in our educations and

> aren't being compensated appropriately.

Nothing wrong with wanting it, but expecting it or holding progressive

efforts hostage is another story. The time to make changes that might have

led to better conditions and wages for current street level medics passed

with us bickering over the same things we still can't agree upon. Has

anyone ever heard of compromise? Either we all get together and move in the

same direction or we doom ourselves to repeating our previous failures.

Just for general information, it appears someone is again making smoky

backrooms attempts at getting grandfathering legislation looked at again.

Why do we continue to beat the same dead horse?

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the

customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

~~ Max Forman ~~

Don't Miss EMStock

<http://www.EMStock.com> www.EMStock.com

May 20 - 22 2005

[Guest guest]

Brown writes:

> I'm not saying " what's in it for me " really....what I'm saying is that for

> the FUTURE of pre-hospital medicine, all this talk about increasing the

> educational requirements to bachelors degree level is totally moot unless

a

> munincipality someplace is willing to employ me and my shiny new bachelors

> degree at an annual salary commesurate with my education. The already

don't

> do that right now, so please explain to me what their motivation would be

> later after I've invested the effort to obtain my degree? There's already

a

> shortage of medics right now, but I don't see anybody offering increased

> wages to entice people to jump ship, or move up from basics and

> intermediates.

I'll answer your question with another. What exactly is wrong with having a

shortage of medics? The combination of internal efforts to raise nursing

educational standards and a shortage of nurses led to the pay rate you

mention in another post. It didn't happen overnight for them and it won't

for us either.

> BTW, what exactly is wrong with right now? Lots of us have mortgages and

car

> payments to pay right now, and have already invested in our educations and

> aren't being compensated appropriately.

Nothing wrong with wanting it, but expecting it or holding progressive

efforts hostage is another story. The time to make changes that might have

led to better conditions and wages for current street level medics passed

with us bickering over the same things we still can't agree upon. Has

anyone ever heard of compromise? Either we all get together and move in the

same direction or we doom ourselves to repeating our previous failures.

Just for general information, it appears someone is again making smoky

backrooms attempts at getting grandfathering legislation looked at again.

Why do we continue to beat the same dead horse?

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the

customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

~~ Max Forman ~~

Don't Miss EMStock

<http://www.EMStock.com> www.EMStock.com

May 20 - 22 2005

[Guest guest]

" I'll answer your question with another. What exactly is wrong with having a

shortage of medics? The combination of internal efforts to raise nursing

educational standards and a shortage of nurses led to the pay rate you

mention in another post. It didn't happen overnight for them and it won't

for us either. "

Right now what's wrong with it is that I'll be expected to continue to do

more with less. Our call volume has steadily increased every year, while an

increase in numbers of units on the road has not matched the demand. This

situation, combined with the continued lack of pay, forces people who would

otherwise stay in the profession to abandon it as an economic necessity,

which creates more shortages. Its a vicious circle, for which I do not have

an answer except that at SOME point the pay in EMS is going to habe to be

recognized as the single most important issue to be adressed, not education.

Its unreasonable to expect the healthcare system to see us as professionals,

and for EMS workers to move into their deserved place as healthcare

professionals until they are paid like professionals. This is not a chicken

or the egg argument. Nobody is going to sign up to be a paramedic when the

course is 2 years, much less 4 years, to make 1/3 as much as a nurse. We've

taken EMS as far as it can go education-wise without a drastic increase in

compensation. Its as least as far as I'm willing to go. what do you imagine

the odds are of me having to obtain ANOTHER degree to do a job I was doing

before for the same money?

I've read the on-going controversy about this issue for weeks now, and I

just can't get past the fact that while I agree that the field of EMS would

benefit greatly by moving it into a bachelors degree program, the issue of

what the salary involved would be needs to be figured out first, otherwise

its all just a big waste of time. I have no doubt that any city manager

would love to employ a bunch of college degreed employees for 12 bucks an

hour, don't you?

magnetass sends

RE: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

> Brown writes:

>

>

>

>> I'm not saying " what's in it for me " really....what I'm saying is that

>> for

>

>

>> the FUTURE of pre-hospital medicine, all this talk about increasing the

>> educational requirements to bachelors degree level is totally moot unless

> a

>> munincipality someplace is willing to employ me and my shiny new

>> bachelors

>

>> degree at an annual salary commesurate with my education. The already

> don't

>> do that right now, so please explain to me what their motivation would be

>> later after I've invested the effort to obtain my degree? There's already

> a

>> shortage of medics right now, but I don't see anybody offering increased

>> wages to entice people to jump ship, or move up from basics and

>> intermediates.

>

>

>

> I'll answer your question with another. What exactly is wrong with having

> a

> shortage of medics? The combination of internal efforts to raise nursing

> educational standards and a shortage of nurses led to the pay rate you

> mention in another post. It didn't happen overnight for them and it won't

> for us either.

>

>> BTW, what exactly is wrong with right now? Lots of us have mortgages and

> car

>> payments to pay right now, and have already invested in our educations

>> and

>

>> aren't being compensated appropriately.

>

>

>

> Nothing wrong with wanting it, but expecting it or holding progressive

> efforts hostage is another story. The time to make changes that might

> have

> led to better conditions and wages for current street level medics passed

> with us bickering over the same things we still can't agree upon. Has

> anyone ever heard of compromise? Either we all get together and move in

> the

> same direction or we doom ourselves to repeating our previous failures.

>

>

>

> Just for general information, it appears someone is again making smoky

> backrooms attempts at getting grandfathering legislation looked at again.

> Why do we continue to beat the same dead horse?

>

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the

> customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

> ~~ Max Forman ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock

> <http://www.EMStock.com> www.EMStock.com

>

> May 20 - 22 2005

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" I'll answer your question with another. What exactly is wrong with having a

shortage of medics? The combination of internal efforts to raise nursing

educational standards and a shortage of nurses led to the pay rate you

mention in another post. It didn't happen overnight for them and it won't

for us either. "

Right now what's wrong with it is that I'll be expected to continue to do

more with less. Our call volume has steadily increased every year, while an

increase in numbers of units on the road has not matched the demand. This

situation, combined with the continued lack of pay, forces people who would

otherwise stay in the profession to abandon it as an economic necessity,

which creates more shortages. Its a vicious circle, for which I do not have

an answer except that at SOME point the pay in EMS is going to habe to be

recognized as the single most important issue to be adressed, not education.

Its unreasonable to expect the healthcare system to see us as professionals,

and for EMS workers to move into their deserved place as healthcare

professionals until they are paid like professionals. This is not a chicken

or the egg argument. Nobody is going to sign up to be a paramedic when the

course is 2 years, much less 4 years, to make 1/3 as much as a nurse. We've

taken EMS as far as it can go education-wise without a drastic increase in

compensation. Its as least as far as I'm willing to go. what do you imagine

the odds are of me having to obtain ANOTHER degree to do a job I was doing

before for the same money?

I've read the on-going controversy about this issue for weeks now, and I

just can't get past the fact that while I agree that the field of EMS would

benefit greatly by moving it into a bachelors degree program, the issue of

what the salary involved would be needs to be figured out first, otherwise

its all just a big waste of time. I have no doubt that any city manager

would love to employ a bunch of college degreed employees for 12 bucks an

hour, don't you?

magnetass sends

RE: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

> Brown writes:

>

>

>

>> I'm not saying " what's in it for me " really....what I'm saying is that

>> for

>

>

>> the FUTURE of pre-hospital medicine, all this talk about increasing the

>> educational requirements to bachelors degree level is totally moot unless

> a

>> munincipality someplace is willing to employ me and my shiny new

>> bachelors

>

>> degree at an annual salary commesurate with my education. The already

> don't

>> do that right now, so please explain to me what their motivation would be

>> later after I've invested the effort to obtain my degree? There's already

> a

>> shortage of medics right now, but I don't see anybody offering increased

>> wages to entice people to jump ship, or move up from basics and

>> intermediates.

>

>

>

> I'll answer your question with another. What exactly is wrong with having

> a

> shortage of medics? The combination of internal efforts to raise nursing

> educational standards and a shortage of nurses led to the pay rate you

> mention in another post. It didn't happen overnight for them and it won't

> for us either.

>

>> BTW, what exactly is wrong with right now? Lots of us have mortgages and

> car

>> payments to pay right now, and have already invested in our educations

>> and

>

>> aren't being compensated appropriately.

>

>

>

> Nothing wrong with wanting it, but expecting it or holding progressive

> efforts hostage is another story. The time to make changes that might

> have

> led to better conditions and wages for current street level medics passed

> with us bickering over the same things we still can't agree upon. Has

> anyone ever heard of compromise? Either we all get together and move in

> the

> same direction or we doom ourselves to repeating our previous failures.

>

>

>

> Just for general information, it appears someone is again making smoky

> backrooms attempts at getting grandfathering legislation looked at again.

> Why do we continue to beat the same dead horse?

>

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the

> customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

> ~~ Max Forman ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock

> <http://www.EMStock.com> www.EMStock.com

>

> May 20 - 22 2005

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Brown writes:

> Right now what's wrong with it is that I'll be expected to continue

> to do more with less.

So, for Brown the question remains " What's in it for me? "

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

~~ Vescere bracis meis ~~

Don't Miss EMStock 2005

www.EMStock.com

[Guest guest]

Brown writes:

> Right now what's wrong with it is that I'll be expected to continue

> to do more with less.

So, for Brown the question remains " What's in it for me? "

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

~~ Vescere bracis meis ~~

Don't Miss EMStock 2005

www.EMStock.com

[Guest guest]

Brown writes:

> Right now what's wrong with it is that I'll be expected to continue

> to do more with less.

So, for Brown the question remains " What's in it for me? "

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

~~ Vescere bracis meis ~~

Don't Miss EMStock 2005

www.EMStock.com

[Guest guest]

I am saying in this world today the average person is not going to bother

becoming a medic at all. Go be all you can bee join the university train and

become a Dr. and earn 200k a year or even become a paramedic Dr. and earn as

much as 20 k a year just look at all the possibilities. Go 4 year degree program

and you will be able to earn as much as a high school graduate prison guard who

know earns more then a paramedic for most company's. I know there are quite a

few of us paramedics working at prisons now as guards making more money.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

Brown writes:

> I'm not saying " what's in it for me " really....what I'm saying is that for

> the FUTURE of pre-hospital medicine, all this talk about increasing the

> educational requirements to bachelors degree level is totally moot unless

a

> munincipality someplace is willing to employ me and my shiny new bachelors

> degree at an annual salary commesurate with my education. The already

don't

> do that right now, so please explain to me what their motivation would be

> later after I've invested the effort to obtain my degree? There's already

a

> shortage of medics right now, but I don't see anybody offering increased

> wages to entice people to jump ship, or move up from basics and

> intermediates.

I'll answer your question with another. What exactly is wrong with having a

shortage of medics? The combination of internal efforts to raise nursing

educational standards and a shortage of nurses led to the pay rate you

mention in another post. It didn't happen overnight for them and it won't

for us either.

> BTW, what exactly is wrong with right now? Lots of us have mortgages and

car

> payments to pay right now, and have already invested in our educations and

> aren't being compensated appropriately.

Nothing wrong with wanting it, but expecting it or holding progressive

efforts hostage is another story. The time to make changes that might have

led to better conditions and wages for current street level medics passed

with us bickering over the same things we still can't agree upon. Has

anyone ever heard of compromise? Either we all get together and move in the

same direction or we doom ourselves to repeating our previous failures.

Just for general information, it appears someone is again making smoky

backrooms attempts at getting grandfathering legislation looked at again.

Why do we continue to beat the same dead horse?

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the

customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

~~ Max Forman ~~

Don't Miss EMStock

<http://www.EMStock.com> www.EMStock.com

May 20 - 22 2005

[Guest guest]

I am saying in this world today the average person is not going to bother

becoming a medic at all. Go be all you can bee join the university train and

become a Dr. and earn 200k a year or even become a paramedic Dr. and earn as

much as 20 k a year just look at all the possibilities. Go 4 year degree program

and you will be able to earn as much as a high school graduate prison guard who

know earns more then a paramedic for most company's. I know there are quite a

few of us paramedics working at prisons now as guards making more money.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

Brown writes:

> I'm not saying " what's in it for me " really....what I'm saying is that for

> the FUTURE of pre-hospital medicine, all this talk about increasing the

> educational requirements to bachelors degree level is totally moot unless

a

> munincipality someplace is willing to employ me and my shiny new bachelors

> degree at an annual salary commesurate with my education. The already

don't

> do that right now, so please explain to me what their motivation would be

> later after I've invested the effort to obtain my degree? There's already

a

> shortage of medics right now, but I don't see anybody offering increased

> wages to entice people to jump ship, or move up from basics and

> intermediates.

I'll answer your question with another. What exactly is wrong with having a

shortage of medics? The combination of internal efforts to raise nursing

educational standards and a shortage of nurses led to the pay rate you

mention in another post. It didn't happen overnight for them and it won't

for us either.

> BTW, what exactly is wrong with right now? Lots of us have mortgages and

car

> payments to pay right now, and have already invested in our educations and

> aren't being compensated appropriately.

Nothing wrong with wanting it, but expecting it or holding progressive

efforts hostage is another story. The time to make changes that might have

led to better conditions and wages for current street level medics passed

with us bickering over the same things we still can't agree upon. Has

anyone ever heard of compromise? Either we all get together and move in the

same direction or we doom ourselves to repeating our previous failures.

Just for general information, it appears someone is again making smoky

backrooms attempts at getting grandfathering legislation looked at again.

Why do we continue to beat the same dead horse?

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the

customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

~~ Max Forman ~~

Don't Miss EMStock

<http://www.EMStock.com> www.EMStock.com

May 20 - 22 2005

[Guest guest]

I am saying in this world today the average person is not going to bother

becoming a medic at all. Go be all you can bee join the university train and

become a Dr. and earn 200k a year or even become a paramedic Dr. and earn as

much as 20 k a year just look at all the possibilities. Go 4 year degree program

and you will be able to earn as much as a high school graduate prison guard who

know earns more then a paramedic for most company's. I know there are quite a

few of us paramedics working at prisons now as guards making more money.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

Brown writes:

> I'm not saying " what's in it for me " really....what I'm saying is that for

> the FUTURE of pre-hospital medicine, all this talk about increasing the

> educational requirements to bachelors degree level is totally moot unless

a

> munincipality someplace is willing to employ me and my shiny new bachelors

> degree at an annual salary commesurate with my education. The already

don't

> do that right now, so please explain to me what their motivation would be

> later after I've invested the effort to obtain my degree? There's already

a

> shortage of medics right now, but I don't see anybody offering increased

> wages to entice people to jump ship, or move up from basics and

> intermediates.

I'll answer your question with another. What exactly is wrong with having a

shortage of medics? The combination of internal efforts to raise nursing

educational standards and a shortage of nurses led to the pay rate you

mention in another post. It didn't happen overnight for them and it won't

for us either.

> BTW, what exactly is wrong with right now? Lots of us have mortgages and

car

> payments to pay right now, and have already invested in our educations and

> aren't being compensated appropriately.

Nothing wrong with wanting it, but expecting it or holding progressive

efforts hostage is another story. The time to make changes that might have

led to better conditions and wages for current street level medics passed

with us bickering over the same things we still can't agree upon. Has

anyone ever heard of compromise? Either we all get together and move in the

same direction or we doom ourselves to repeating our previous failures.

Just for general information, it appears someone is again making smoky

backrooms attempts at getting grandfathering legislation looked at again.

Why do we continue to beat the same dead horse?

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

" Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the

customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

~~ Max Forman ~~

Don't Miss EMStock

<http://www.EMStock.com> www.EMStock.com

May 20 - 22 2005

[Guest guest]

,

After numerous debates...I can't believe we are almost on the same side of this

arguement....I have to agree with you...get all the education you want...but it

won't affect your personal pay until you find someone (municipality, hospital,

dr. office, private company, etc) that will pay you for your education...and you

are not going to find that until you find someone who is going to pay that

" someone " (municipality, hospital, dr. office, private company, etc) for the

services that they employ you to deliver.

I love the EMS Agenda for the Future...just don't ignore the comments that are

throughout the entire document...the limiting factor to the DREAM is finding a

way to PAY for it.

Dudley

[Guest guest]

,

After numerous debates...I can't believe we are almost on the same side of this

arguement....I have to agree with you...get all the education you want...but it

won't affect your personal pay until you find someone (municipality, hospital,

dr. office, private company, etc) that will pay you for your education...and you

are not going to find that until you find someone who is going to pay that

" someone " (municipality, hospital, dr. office, private company, etc) for the

services that they employ you to deliver.

I love the EMS Agenda for the Future...just don't ignore the comments that are

throughout the entire document...the limiting factor to the DREAM is finding a

way to PAY for it.

Dudley

[Guest guest]

,

After numerous debates...I can't believe we are almost on the same side of this

arguement....I have to agree with you...get all the education you want...but it

won't affect your personal pay until you find someone (municipality, hospital,

dr. office, private company, etc) that will pay you for your education...and you

are not going to find that until you find someone who is going to pay that

" someone " (municipality, hospital, dr. office, private company, etc) for the

services that they employ you to deliver.

I love the EMS Agenda for the Future...just don't ignore the comments that are

throughout the entire document...the limiting factor to the DREAM is finding a

way to PAY for it.

Dudley

[Guest guest]

Hey...all you internet research hounds...what is the average salary for a new

graduate with a backelor degree in anything...across the board?

Just curious...but I know a lot of 4 year degreed people making less than ALOT

of paramedics.

BTW, I know of at least 2 places that pay starting paramedics in the 40's...in

Texas and many others that pay in the mid 30's...this compared to my first job

as a paramedic in 1988 making $18,000...so if in 16 years that salary has

doubled...simple Aggie math tells me that by 2020 medics will be making 70 to

80K starting....seems a little far fetched for the job we do...but if someone

will pay it...we better be able to educate it.

Dudley

[Guest guest]

Hey...all you internet research hounds...what is the average salary for a new

graduate with a backelor degree in anything...across the board?

Just curious...but I know a lot of 4 year degreed people making less than ALOT

of paramedics.

BTW, I know of at least 2 places that pay starting paramedics in the 40's...in

Texas and many others that pay in the mid 30's...this compared to my first job

as a paramedic in 1988 making $18,000...so if in 16 years that salary has

doubled...simple Aggie math tells me that by 2020 medics will be making 70 to

80K starting....seems a little far fetched for the job we do...but if someone

will pay it...we better be able to educate it.

Dudley

[Guest guest]

Hey...all you internet research hounds...what is the average salary for a new

graduate with a backelor degree in anything...across the board?

Just curious...but I know a lot of 4 year degreed people making less than ALOT

of paramedics.

BTW, I know of at least 2 places that pay starting paramedics in the 40's...in

Texas and many others that pay in the mid 30's...this compared to my first job

as a paramedic in 1988 making $18,000...so if in 16 years that salary has

doubled...simple Aggie math tells me that by 2020 medics will be making 70 to

80K starting....seems a little far fetched for the job we do...but if someone

will pay it...we better be able to educate it.

Dudley