What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards (Long)]

December 13, 2004

OK, also, there are beginning airline pilot positions that pay aroung that

to start, however, how long do you expect an attorney to make 32K a year?

There isn't the opprotunity in EMS to advance much farther than 34-36K.

magnetass sends

Re: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

> For what it's worth, I know there are attorney positions (requiring an

> additional 3 years of school after a bachelor's degree) than pay around

> $32,000.

> Being a paramedic, especially in an urban system, could easily pay more.

>

> -Wes Ogilvie

>

December 13, 2004

OK, also, there are beginning airline pilot positions that pay aroung that

to start, however, how long do you expect an attorney to make 32K a year?

There isn't the opprotunity in EMS to advance much farther than 34-36K.

magnetass sends

Re: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

> For what it's worth, I know there are attorney positions (requiring an

> additional 3 years of school after a bachelor's degree) than pay around

> $32,000.

> Being a paramedic, especially in an urban system, could easily pay more.

>

> -Wes Ogilvie

>

December 13, 2004

OK, also, there are beginning airline pilot positions that pay aroung that

to start, however, how long do you expect an attorney to make 32K a year?

There isn't the opprotunity in EMS to advance much farther than 34-36K.

magnetass sends

Re: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

> For what it's worth, I know there are attorney positions (requiring an

> additional 3 years of school after a bachelor's degree) than pay around

> $32,000.

> Being a paramedic, especially in an urban system, could easily pay more.

>

> -Wes Ogilvie

>

December 13, 2004

Oh lord....everybody drop down, 'cause the end of the world is surely a

comin'! LOL!

I'm not ignoring the entire document, I just want to stay grounded in

reality, and that is we are going to have a tough time signing folks up for

this deal offering the kind of money we offer.

Now, having said that, god bless the teachers, who DO sign up for a 4 year

program to make diddley squat....at first.

magnetass sends

Re: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

> ,

>

> After numerous debates...I can't believe we are almost on the same side of

> this arguement....I have to agree with you...get all the education you

> want...but it won't affect your personal pay until you find someone

> (municipality, hospital, dr. office, private company, etc) that will pay

> you for your education...and you are not going to find that until you find

> someone who is going to pay that " someone " (municipality, hospital, dr.

> office, private company, etc) for the services that they employ you to

> deliver.

>

> I love the EMS Agenda for the Future...just don't ignore the comments that

> are throughout the entire document...the limiting factor to the DREAM is

> finding a way to PAY for it.

>

> Dudley

>

December 13, 2004

Oh lord....everybody drop down, 'cause the end of the world is surely a

comin'! LOL!

I'm not ignoring the entire document, I just want to stay grounded in

reality, and that is we are going to have a tough time signing folks up for

this deal offering the kind of money we offer.

Now, having said that, god bless the teachers, who DO sign up for a 4 year

program to make diddley squat....at first.

magnetass sends

Re: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

> ,

>

> After numerous debates...I can't believe we are almost on the same side of

> this arguement....I have to agree with you...get all the education you

> want...but it won't affect your personal pay until you find someone

> (municipality, hospital, dr. office, private company, etc) that will pay

> you for your education...and you are not going to find that until you find

> someone who is going to pay that " someone " (municipality, hospital, dr.

> office, private company, etc) for the services that they employ you to

> deliver.

>

> I love the EMS Agenda for the Future...just don't ignore the comments that

> are throughout the entire document...the limiting factor to the DREAM is

> finding a way to PAY for it.

>

> Dudley

>

December 13, 2004

Oh lord....everybody drop down, 'cause the end of the world is surely a

comin'! LOL!

I'm not ignoring the entire document, I just want to stay grounded in

reality, and that is we are going to have a tough time signing folks up for

this deal offering the kind of money we offer.

Now, having said that, god bless the teachers, who DO sign up for a 4 year

program to make diddley squat....at first.

magnetass sends

Re: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

> ,

>

> After numerous debates...I can't believe we are almost on the same side of

> this arguement....I have to agree with you...get all the education you

> want...but it won't affect your personal pay until you find someone

> (municipality, hospital, dr. office, private company, etc) that will pay

> you for your education...and you are not going to find that until you find

> someone who is going to pay that " someone " (municipality, hospital, dr.

> office, private company, etc) for the services that they employ you to

> deliver.

>

> I love the EMS Agenda for the Future...just don't ignore the comments that

> are throughout the entire document...the limiting factor to the DREAM is

> finding a way to PAY for it.

>

> Dudley

>

December 13, 2004

That's the rub....STARTING salary. Most jobs with a bachelors degree, after

10 years in, they are making good bank. My first job as a paramedic I was

making $10.50 an hour. My last job, 8 years later, I was making 11

something. This is a tad misleading, since my hourly wage really isn't

indicitive of my gross salary, which was in the high 30s. Now, to make that

required a lot of OT, and my OT is built into the advertised gross annual

salary. If were willing to work a LOT of OT, I could make some decent cash,

but when would I spend it?

My BiL started out with a masters in accounting, and his first job paid

roughly what I make. now, 10 years later, he's a partner in his firm, making

upwards of 200K....the bastard. Those first years were rough, and nobody saw

him at tax time, but man did it pay off. If only I wanted to be an

accountant! I have job satisfaction (keep saying this to yourself) :-)

magnetass sends

Re: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

> Hey...all you internet research hounds...what is the average salary for a

> new graduate with a backelor degree in anything...across the board?

>

> Just curious...but I know a lot of 4 year degreed people making less than

> ALOT of paramedics.

>

> BTW, I know of at least 2 places that pay starting paramedics in the

> 40's...in Texas and many others that pay in the mid 30's...this compared

> to my first job as a paramedic in 1988 making $18,000...so if in 16 years

> that salary has doubled...simple Aggie math tells me that by 2020 medics

> will be making 70 to 80K starting....seems a little far fetched for the

> job we do...but if someone will pay it...we better be able to educate it.

>

> Dudley

>

December 13, 2004

That's the rub....STARTING salary. Most jobs with a bachelors degree, after

10 years in, they are making good bank. My first job as a paramedic I was

making $10.50 an hour. My last job, 8 years later, I was making 11

something. This is a tad misleading, since my hourly wage really isn't

indicitive of my gross salary, which was in the high 30s. Now, to make that

required a lot of OT, and my OT is built into the advertised gross annual

salary. If were willing to work a LOT of OT, I could make some decent cash,

but when would I spend it?

My BiL started out with a masters in accounting, and his first job paid

roughly what I make. now, 10 years later, he's a partner in his firm, making

upwards of 200K....the bastard. Those first years were rough, and nobody saw

him at tax time, but man did it pay off. If only I wanted to be an

accountant! I have job satisfaction (keep saying this to yourself) :-)

magnetass sends

Re: What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

> Hey...all you internet research hounds...what is the average salary for a

> new graduate with a backelor degree in anything...across the board?

>

> Just curious...but I know a lot of 4 year degreed people making less than

> ALOT of paramedics.

>

> BTW, I know of at least 2 places that pay starting paramedics in the

> 40's...in Texas and many others that pay in the mid 30's...this compared

> to my first job as a paramedic in 1988 making $18,000...so if in 16 years

> that salary has doubled...simple Aggie math tells me that by 2020 medics

> will be making 70 to 80K starting....seems a little far fetched for the

> job we do...but if someone will pay it...we better be able to educate it.

>

> Dudley

>

December 14, 2004

The only way to do that is kill this generation and scare the hell out of the

next.

Henry

" D.E. (Donn) " wrote:

> I reiterate that which I said a few days ago. Nothing we do today is likely

> to benefit us any time soon. We do today that which will benefit the future

> of the profession. If you are young enough you may see some benefits

> someday, but neither Andy Foote nor I will.

>

> Somehow or another we have got to get past this " What's in it for me? "

> attitude. The only way out of this paper bag is compromise, communication,

> organization and teamwork.

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a

> vacuum... "

> ~~ Arthur C. e ~~

>

> _____

>

> From: Brown

> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 2:36 PM

> To:

> Subject: Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

>

> Beautiful. PAY ME MORE!

>

> You aren't going to talk ANYBODY into obtaining a degree in pre-hospital

> medicine to make 34K a year, period.

>

> Where are you going to find these people at?

>

> magnetass sends

> Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

> >

> > Kenny writes:

> >

> > " As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

> > very

> > few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the

> > same

> > calls they are running today and would provide the same level of

> > care. "

> >

> > And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

> > for

> > Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

> > SoP

> > document crams us all into the same cage.

> >

> > Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

> > NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

> > Dallas.

> >

> > GG

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> > POB 1651

> > Albany, TX 76430

> > wegandy1938@...

> >

December 14, 2004

The only way to do that is kill this generation and scare the hell out of the

next.

Henry

" D.E. (Donn) " wrote:

> I reiterate that which I said a few days ago. Nothing we do today is likely

> to benefit us any time soon. We do today that which will benefit the future

> of the profession. If you are young enough you may see some benefits

> someday, but neither Andy Foote nor I will.

>

> Somehow or another we have got to get past this " What's in it for me? "

> attitude. The only way out of this paper bag is compromise, communication,

> organization and teamwork.

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a

> vacuum... "

> ~~ Arthur C. e ~~

>

> _____

>

> From: Brown

> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 2:36 PM

> To:

> Subject: Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

>

> Beautiful. PAY ME MORE!

>

> You aren't going to talk ANYBODY into obtaining a degree in pre-hospital

> medicine to make 34K a year, period.

>

> Where are you going to find these people at?

>

> magnetass sends

> Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

> >

> > Kenny writes:

> >

> > " As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

> > very

> > few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the

> > same

> > calls they are running today and would provide the same level of

> > care. "

> >

> > And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

> > for

> > Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

> > SoP

> > document crams us all into the same cage.

> >

> > Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

> > NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

> > Dallas.

> >

> > GG

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> > POB 1651

> > Albany, TX 76430

> > wegandy1938@...

> >

December 14, 2004

The only way to do that is kill this generation and scare the hell out of the

next.

Henry

" D.E. (Donn) " wrote:

> I reiterate that which I said a few days ago. Nothing we do today is likely

> to benefit us any time soon. We do today that which will benefit the future

> of the profession. If you are young enough you may see some benefits

> someday, but neither Andy Foote nor I will.

>

> Somehow or another we have got to get past this " What's in it for me? "

> attitude. The only way out of this paper bag is compromise, communication,

> organization and teamwork.

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a

> vacuum... "

> ~~ Arthur C. e ~~

>

> _____

>

> From: Brown

> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 2:36 PM

> To:

> Subject: Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

>

> Beautiful. PAY ME MORE!

>

> You aren't going to talk ANYBODY into obtaining a degree in pre-hospital

> medicine to make 34K a year, period.

>

> Where are you going to find these people at?

>

> magnetass sends

> Re: Re: National Standards (Long)

> >

> > Kenny writes:

> >

> > " As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form,

> > very

> > few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the

> > same

> > calls they are running today and would provide the same level of

> > care. "

> >

> > And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right

> > for

> > Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. The

> > SoP

> > document crams us all into the same cage.

> >

> > Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we

> > NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for

> > Dallas.

> >

> > GG

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> > POB 1651

> > Albany, TX 76430

> > wegandy1938@...

> >

December 14, 2004

>>> I'm sorry Donn, people don't generally stay in an industry where

they can't make a decent living. <<<

A common point made by many is that EMS does not pay a decent salary

and the only way to pay the bills is to work extremely long hours.

On the other had, you state that people will not stay in the

industry if they can't make a decent living. Later, in your post

you state that you will come back to EMS when you return.

Now either EMS pays you a decent salary or some DO stay in the

industry for other than money.

>>> As soon as we start requiring advanced coursework to be a street

medic without a drastic increase in pay and benefits, the already

dwindlind supply of people willing to do it will dry up quicker than

you can say Jack Spratt. <<<

The proposed NEMSSoP is not requiring you (or anyone) to do

anything. You can continue to work as a paramedic without ever

stepping foot into the hallowed halls again. A newbie can still go

to the same paramedic school you did, meet the same requirement you

have, and be placed on the streets.

There will just be an additional level of paramedic for those who

want to pursue that avenue.

Kenny Navarro

December 14, 2004

Yeah....that's how debate works I thought? You pose a counter-point

question, then proceed to answer it, right?

magnetass sends

What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

>>>> BTW, what exactly is wrong with right now? Lots of us have

> mortgages and car payments to pay right now, and have already

> invested in our educations and aren't being compensated

> appropriately. <<<

>

> Didn't you just answer your own question?

>

> Kenny Navarro

>

December 14, 2004

Yeah....that's how debate works I thought? You pose a counter-point

question, then proceed to answer it, right?

magnetass sends

What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

>>>> BTW, what exactly is wrong with right now? Lots of us have

> mortgages and car payments to pay right now, and have already

> invested in our educations and aren't being compensated

> appropriately. <<<

>

> Didn't you just answer your own question?

>

> Kenny Navarro

>

December 14, 2004

Yeah....that's how debate works I thought? You pose a counter-point

question, then proceed to answer it, right?

magnetass sends

What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

>>>> BTW, what exactly is wrong with right now? Lots of us have

> mortgages and car payments to pay right now, and have already

> invested in our educations and aren't being compensated

> appropriately. <<<

>

> Didn't you just answer your own question?

>

> Kenny Navarro

>

December 14, 2004

" Ace? Now that was a good comeback. , with wit and charm like

yours you should go into comedy. You are a laugh a minute. "

I am actually pretty funny.....you should hear my bit about Vinnie and

Vinnie, the New York City Firefighters. I've made people pee with it before.

Voices and impersonations are really my thing, but its hard to get that

across on the computer.

" (This is off topic, but I just have to say that I STILL think signing

a message " magnetass sends " is amateurish.) "

Too bad for me I guess. Larry thinks I'm an amatuer. :-(

magnetass sends

What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

>> You know something ace, I've more than done my bit for queen and

>> country so to speak, and I've more than earned the right to

>> ask " whats in it for me " , were that really the issue instead of

>> something that you continue to remain focused on.

>

> Ace? Now that was a good comeback. , with wit and charm like

> yours you should go into comedy. You are a laugh a minute.

>

> But seriously, what I think Donn is saying has nothing to do with

> what you seem to be hearing (or reading, as the case may be). I think

> Donn is saying that you are p!$$!ng in the wind. Your argument may

> have some validity, but it is fruitless to keep pounding your

> head 'cause the train done left the station. This running in circles,

> screaming and shouting seems to be an activity taught in many EMS

> skools over the past couple of decades.

>

> The changes are coming regardless of how we feel about them. Take

> this new scope of practice thing (please!). Like it or not, there

> WILL BE a national scope of practice sometime in the not so distant

> future. That scope of practice will contain educational prerequisites

> regardless of how you feel about it. This is something that is just

> going to happen.

>

> Now, what do we do about it? We get on board the train and start

> working to rewrite it so that it fits better. Only choice we have.

> Except, of course, to run in circles screaming and shouting. Again.

>

> (This is off topic, but I just have to say that I STILL think signing

> a message " magnetass sends " is amateurish.)

>

> Larry

>

December 14, 2004

" Ace? Now that was a good comeback. , with wit and charm like

yours you should go into comedy. You are a laugh a minute. "

I am actually pretty funny.....you should hear my bit about Vinnie and

Vinnie, the New York City Firefighters. I've made people pee with it before.

Voices and impersonations are really my thing, but its hard to get that

across on the computer.

" (This is off topic, but I just have to say that I STILL think signing

a message " magnetass sends " is amateurish.) "

Too bad for me I guess. Larry thinks I'm an amatuer. :-(

magnetass sends

What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

>> You know something ace, I've more than done my bit for queen and

>> country so to speak, and I've more than earned the right to

>> ask " whats in it for me " , were that really the issue instead of

>> something that you continue to remain focused on.

>

> Ace? Now that was a good comeback. , with wit and charm like

> yours you should go into comedy. You are a laugh a minute.

>

> But seriously, what I think Donn is saying has nothing to do with

> what you seem to be hearing (or reading, as the case may be). I think

> Donn is saying that you are p!$$!ng in the wind. Your argument may

> have some validity, but it is fruitless to keep pounding your

> head 'cause the train done left the station. This running in circles,

> screaming and shouting seems to be an activity taught in many EMS

> skools over the past couple of decades.

>

> The changes are coming regardless of how we feel about them. Take

> this new scope of practice thing (please!). Like it or not, there

> WILL BE a national scope of practice sometime in the not so distant

> future. That scope of practice will contain educational prerequisites

> regardless of how you feel about it. This is something that is just

> going to happen.

>

> Now, what do we do about it? We get on board the train and start

> working to rewrite it so that it fits better. Only choice we have.

> Except, of course, to run in circles screaming and shouting. Again.

>

> (This is off topic, but I just have to say that I STILL think signing

> a message " magnetass sends " is amateurish.)

>

> Larry

>

December 14, 2004

" Ace? Now that was a good comeback. , with wit and charm like

yours you should go into comedy. You are a laugh a minute. "

I am actually pretty funny.....you should hear my bit about Vinnie and

Vinnie, the New York City Firefighters. I've made people pee with it before.

Voices and impersonations are really my thing, but its hard to get that

across on the computer.

" (This is off topic, but I just have to say that I STILL think signing

a message " magnetass sends " is amateurish.) "

Too bad for me I guess. Larry thinks I'm an amatuer. :-(

magnetass sends

What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

>> You know something ace, I've more than done my bit for queen and

>> country so to speak, and I've more than earned the right to

>> ask " whats in it for me " , were that really the issue instead of

>> something that you continue to remain focused on.

>

> Ace? Now that was a good comeback. , with wit and charm like

> yours you should go into comedy. You are a laugh a minute.

>

> But seriously, what I think Donn is saying has nothing to do with

> what you seem to be hearing (or reading, as the case may be). I think

> Donn is saying that you are p!$$!ng in the wind. Your argument may

> have some validity, but it is fruitless to keep pounding your

> head 'cause the train done left the station. This running in circles,

> screaming and shouting seems to be an activity taught in many EMS

> skools over the past couple of decades.

>

> The changes are coming regardless of how we feel about them. Take

> this new scope of practice thing (please!). Like it or not, there

> WILL BE a national scope of practice sometime in the not so distant

> future. That scope of practice will contain educational prerequisites

> regardless of how you feel about it. This is something that is just

> going to happen.

>

> Now, what do we do about it? We get on board the train and start

> working to rewrite it so that it fits better. Only choice we have.

> Except, of course, to run in circles screaming and shouting. Again.

>

> (This is off topic, but I just have to say that I STILL think signing

> a message " magnetass sends " is amateurish.)

>

> Larry

>

December 14, 2004

Yes, as of right now, EMS is living off people like me who continue to do it

in the face of far better offers in much more lucrative fields. I've never

met a medic who's in it for the money (I do it for the flocks of women

myself) I've stated this before here someplace, but out of my paramedic

school class of 22, there are only 3 that I am aware of who are still riding

the box 8 some years later. The rest put their 3 or 4 years in, realize that

there's more money in nursing or PA or whatever, and move on, or work as

part-time medics. How many medics do you know who drag books to work with

them trying to work on their nursing or something else to get them out of

EMS?

I realize what we are talking about. What I'm saying, apparently

unsuccessfully, is that who exactly are you going to talk into investing 4

years into a bachelors degree program to make the same $ as a guy who put in

9 months into a regular paramedic program, or 2 years into as associates? I

rememebr all the hoohaa about licensure, and how this was going to raise

salaries now that we were " licensed professionals " . To date, I've made

exactly 0 dollars more as an LP than I would have as a certified medic. Not

much of a track record if you ask me.

magnetass sends

What's in it for me? [WAS Re: National Standards

(Long)]

>

>>>> I'm sorry Donn, people don't generally stay in an industry where

> they can't make a decent living. <<<

>

> A common point made by many is that EMS does not pay a decent salary

> and the only way to pay the bills is to work extremely long hours.

> On the other had, you state that people will not stay in the

> industry if they can't make a decent living. Later, in your post

> you state that you will come back to EMS when you return.

>

> Now either EMS pays you a decent salary or some DO stay in the

> industry for other than money.

>

>>>> As soon as we start requiring advanced coursework to be a street

> medic without a drastic increase in pay and benefits, the already

> dwindlind supply of people willing to do it will dry up quicker than

> you can say Jack Spratt. <<<

>

> The proposed NEMSSoP is not requiring you (or anyone) to do

> anything. You can continue to work as a paramedic without ever

> stepping foot into the hallowed halls again. A newbie can still go

> to the same paramedic school you did, meet the same requirement you

> have, and be placed on the streets.

>

> There will just be an additional level of paramedic for those who

> want to pursue that avenue.

>

> Kenny Navarro

>

December 14, 2004