Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Thanks -- that is more in line with my typical sentiments. I guess being in recovery from surgery just has me weak for other reasons and I let it upset me when I really shouldn't. Whenever something is getting a reaction from you though, its never a bad idea to look at it. You guys have all made me feel sane again. That's just the thing, my nada doesn't want my love, she wants my life, my bank account, my good friendships and everything else and sense of entitlement with which she demands it is like that of a spoiled child. I don't give into spoiled children! LOL It's not healthy for them and it isn't healthy for me to enable bad behavior. Thank you so much!!!! Jaie! > > > > No matter how far you get on your journey of recovery, there is always something to explore and learn. > > > > I'm a little angry today, seemingly, at the spiritual community I'm involved in. They're really good people but there are some phrases bantered about where I think they are missing the point...but then again, they're touching buttons of mine... > > > > Basically the phrases boil down to these: > > > > 1. If I had truly given nada my forgiveness, I would have her in my life and continue demonstrating my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > > > 2. If I really loved nada without condition, I would have her in my life, ignore her abuse, and continue to demonstrate my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > > > 3. If really had any compassion, I would be understanding that the insults and verbal/vulgar abuse she showers me with are only her wounds and I would not be witholding my love for her. > > > > 4. Your relationships with people, particularly your mother, shows the real person you are on the inside - so, then I am what she says - selfish, cold and uncaring. > > > > So, the root of my anger is obvious, there is still some guilt I carry at kicking her out of my life, moving and leaving her no forwarding address and changing my home and cell phone numbers so she cannot contact me. > > > > I don't think I'm delusional (I could be and I'll look at that) but I see myself as I kind, loving and very compassionate soul. I tend towards co-dependency so I'm very careful not to get involved in rescuing people but that pretty much sums me up. I live to help others while I live and learn here in life. I've been through hell and back and still I really care most about helping others to heal and transcend pain in their lives. > > > > I do care a bit about what people think - particularly in the spiritual realms. If I believe myself a spiritual individual, I am acting rather un-spiritually with nada in that I refuse to stand there and take her abuse, I can't function in my life as a single mother due to the PTSD responses I still have from her abusive, vulgar, truly disgusting soul assassination she attempts with me. But I have this feeling of failure sometimes when I have great relationships with everyone in the world except for abusive people. The guys I ran into with NPD - definitely no good relationships there and I don't care. Just glad they're gone. The Bi-polar ex and I have a great relationship - we get along better now not married than when we were married. I truly love him unconditionally - I just couldn't live with him and be his mate while he was using. he chose substance - I chose sanity. It didn't change my love for him. Its like that with nada to. I love her unconditionally but I cannot pretend to be a loving wonderful daughter to a woman who is out to destroy me if I won't let her take over and ruin my safe sanctuary of home, who's bills I refuse to pay because as a single mom I just have enough for us and who I won't drop everything including caring for my kids to lavish her with physical affection when I'm just not feeling it, who I won't max out the credit cards for to buy her dentures so she can look good (I didn't force her to eat oxycodone like candy rotting her teeth out of her head - cause her to stop with normal oral hygene), I won't call pawn shops all over this land and pay for pawn tickets with interest to retrieve her jewelry. These things would make her stop abusing me until the next thing comes up she can do splitting with. > > > > Really - Am I really wrong in God's eyes for seeking to protect myself? I used an analogy earlier - I love all of God's creatures - I really do and I love them without condition but I'm not going to take a nap next to a hungry tiger or snuggle up to a rattle snake. That would be deadly to me. I have absolutely judged my mother but in this way only - I believe her to be incredibly ill because no mother, for any reason would ever treat her kids the way she treated me, no mother would beg her kids to go deeply into debt - we're talking in the thousands and thousands to rescue her from her bad decisions, I believe she's wrong for seeking vengeance against her child, I believe she is sick, angry, abusive, delusional, unfit, unloving, hurtful and more. I judge her unsafe for me. I can come to the conclusion that I understand what she says isn't about me and I am really strong but I tried to employ this logic and rationalization when she was in my home and she destroyed it. My home has always been my sanctuary, the one place in the world that we were always safe but when she moved in and stayed for 30 days, I wasn't even safe enough to sleep. She'd wake me up at 11 or 12 at night on a work night (I have to get up at 4:00 a.m.) and pick a fight with me about some delusional thing. I'd go to get a cup of coffee in the morning and I was attacked for not beleiving in an hallucination that I could visibly tell was unreal. I couldn't use the bathroom without her knocking on the door. I couldn't open a cabinet without finding a hateful post-it note. I couldn't walk out to my car without finding a note book under my windsheild wiper filed with pages of hate, manipulation, insult and guilt. There was no place in my home I could be safe from her harm and abuse and yet I see all these spiritual people spouting these really beautiful, loving and spiritual things that make me feel so bad and so guilty that I chose peace and emotional safety in my home for me and I my kids, that I chose to love myself instead of putting up with her illness and abuse. > > > > If I'm wrong here, I'm chosing not to be right forever because I'll never go back and maybe she's right and I will burn in hell miserably for chosing to kick her out and refuse to talk to her or listen to minutes and minutes filled with hatred and filthy language and vulgar insults and threats to " get me. " I just cannot believe that God would send me to hell for protecting myself and my kids from my hateful abusive mother. I believe that I am not a bad person just because I cannot have a relationship with my mother. My mother is obviously mentally ill but I am judged by her insanity. Try going out on date with someone - they always want to know how your relationship is with your mother. I always just say i love her and change the subject for another time after they get to know me a little better so I'm not so unfairly judged. > > > > How is it that victims of rape or other crimes are supported by the world with empathy and protection and all we get is downward glances and judgment unfairly? We were victims. I won't be a victim any more. I refuse it and with everything in me I will heal this lie she implanted in me of guilt for doing what I had to do to emotionally survive. > > > > Okay - my vent is over. Thanks for listening. I guess I just had to let it out. > > > > Jaie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Thanks -- that is more in line with my typical sentiments. I guess being in recovery from surgery just has me weak for other reasons and I let it upset me when I really shouldn't. Whenever something is getting a reaction from you though, its never a bad idea to look at it. You guys have all made me feel sane again. That's just the thing, my nada doesn't want my love, she wants my life, my bank account, my good friendships and everything else and sense of entitlement with which she demands it is like that of a spoiled child. I don't give into spoiled children! LOL It's not healthy for them and it isn't healthy for me to enable bad behavior. Thank you so much!!!! Jaie! > > > > No matter how far you get on your journey of recovery, there is always something to explore and learn. > > > > I'm a little angry today, seemingly, at the spiritual community I'm involved in. They're really good people but there are some phrases bantered about where I think they are missing the point...but then again, they're touching buttons of mine... > > > > Basically the phrases boil down to these: > > > > 1. If I had truly given nada my forgiveness, I would have her in my life and continue demonstrating my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > > > 2. If I really loved nada without condition, I would have her in my life, ignore her abuse, and continue to demonstrate my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > > > 3. If really had any compassion, I would be understanding that the insults and verbal/vulgar abuse she showers me with are only her wounds and I would not be witholding my love for her. > > > > 4. Your relationships with people, particularly your mother, shows the real person you are on the inside - so, then I am what she says - selfish, cold and uncaring. > > > > So, the root of my anger is obvious, there is still some guilt I carry at kicking her out of my life, moving and leaving her no forwarding address and changing my home and cell phone numbers so she cannot contact me. > > > > I don't think I'm delusional (I could be and I'll look at that) but I see myself as I kind, loving and very compassionate soul. I tend towards co-dependency so I'm very careful not to get involved in rescuing people but that pretty much sums me up. I live to help others while I live and learn here in life. I've been through hell and back and still I really care most about helping others to heal and transcend pain in their lives. > > > > I do care a bit about what people think - particularly in the spiritual realms. If I believe myself a spiritual individual, I am acting rather un-spiritually with nada in that I refuse to stand there and take her abuse, I can't function in my life as a single mother due to the PTSD responses I still have from her abusive, vulgar, truly disgusting soul assassination she attempts with me. But I have this feeling of failure sometimes when I have great relationships with everyone in the world except for abusive people. The guys I ran into with NPD - definitely no good relationships there and I don't care. Just glad they're gone. The Bi-polar ex and I have a great relationship - we get along better now not married than when we were married. I truly love him unconditionally - I just couldn't live with him and be his mate while he was using. he chose substance - I chose sanity. It didn't change my love for him. Its like that with nada to. I love her unconditionally but I cannot pretend to be a loving wonderful daughter to a woman who is out to destroy me if I won't let her take over and ruin my safe sanctuary of home, who's bills I refuse to pay because as a single mom I just have enough for us and who I won't drop everything including caring for my kids to lavish her with physical affection when I'm just not feeling it, who I won't max out the credit cards for to buy her dentures so she can look good (I didn't force her to eat oxycodone like candy rotting her teeth out of her head - cause her to stop with normal oral hygene), I won't call pawn shops all over this land and pay for pawn tickets with interest to retrieve her jewelry. These things would make her stop abusing me until the next thing comes up she can do splitting with. > > > > Really - Am I really wrong in God's eyes for seeking to protect myself? I used an analogy earlier - I love all of God's creatures - I really do and I love them without condition but I'm not going to take a nap next to a hungry tiger or snuggle up to a rattle snake. That would be deadly to me. I have absolutely judged my mother but in this way only - I believe her to be incredibly ill because no mother, for any reason would ever treat her kids the way she treated me, no mother would beg her kids to go deeply into debt - we're talking in the thousands and thousands to rescue her from her bad decisions, I believe she's wrong for seeking vengeance against her child, I believe she is sick, angry, abusive, delusional, unfit, unloving, hurtful and more. I judge her unsafe for me. I can come to the conclusion that I understand what she says isn't about me and I am really strong but I tried to employ this logic and rationalization when she was in my home and she destroyed it. My home has always been my sanctuary, the one place in the world that we were always safe but when she moved in and stayed for 30 days, I wasn't even safe enough to sleep. She'd wake me up at 11 or 12 at night on a work night (I have to get up at 4:00 a.m.) and pick a fight with me about some delusional thing. I'd go to get a cup of coffee in the morning and I was attacked for not beleiving in an hallucination that I could visibly tell was unreal. I couldn't use the bathroom without her knocking on the door. I couldn't open a cabinet without finding a hateful post-it note. I couldn't walk out to my car without finding a note book under my windsheild wiper filed with pages of hate, manipulation, insult and guilt. There was no place in my home I could be safe from her harm and abuse and yet I see all these spiritual people spouting these really beautiful, loving and spiritual things that make me feel so bad and so guilty that I chose peace and emotional safety in my home for me and I my kids, that I chose to love myself instead of putting up with her illness and abuse. > > > > If I'm wrong here, I'm chosing not to be right forever because I'll never go back and maybe she's right and I will burn in hell miserably for chosing to kick her out and refuse to talk to her or listen to minutes and minutes filled with hatred and filthy language and vulgar insults and threats to " get me. " I just cannot believe that God would send me to hell for protecting myself and my kids from my hateful abusive mother. I believe that I am not a bad person just because I cannot have a relationship with my mother. My mother is obviously mentally ill but I am judged by her insanity. Try going out on date with someone - they always want to know how your relationship is with your mother. I always just say i love her and change the subject for another time after they get to know me a little better so I'm not so unfairly judged. > > > > How is it that victims of rape or other crimes are supported by the world with empathy and protection and all we get is downward glances and judgment unfairly? We were victims. I won't be a victim any more. I refuse it and with everything in me I will heal this lie she implanted in me of guilt for doing what I had to do to emotionally survive. > > > > Okay - my vent is over. Thanks for listening. I guess I just had to let it out. > > > > Jaie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Wow Katrina, That's both chilling a and sobering. Blame the victims - that is the easiest thing to do right? If the victims say nothing, everyone can go on business as usual except the victim who must suffer violation and then violate themselves? Oh, heck no! That should never be. If only they could require that anyone convicted of a crime undergo psychological treatment that is deemed successful before being unleashed on society - I wonder how many victims would be saved. Nada has a rap sheet. Her sense of entitlement is astounding. Unfortunately, she defrauded the welfare system claiming she had custody of a child she did not have. She did that for year. I know of one time, my niece was with me for a month - nada dumped her on my doorstep and said take care of her, I can't deal with her any more. We were nearly bankrupt and my brother and the baby's mother were just not in a place to have custody or provide support...nada collected the welfare check that month. They don't even know about that one. They also don't know that she sells the narcotics they pay for. If only they would have some how pulled her into psychotherapy right then and there, they might have saved themselves years of welfare payments. Nada might have worked. Ugh. My heart goes out to the victims of child abuse, the victims of rape and crime, the victims of closet NPDs who totally fake who they are and then seek to destroy the women their with....all of these victims of psychological abuse. God I so wish there was a bigger answer, a better answer to stop them, make them get treatment so they couldn't harm anyone else. It just makes me so very sad. But, we do have the will to survive, to transcend and to learn. Ya never know, I could have been talking to someone who had the BPD diagnosis and were really PO'd at me for what I did to nada. That sounds like a more realistic explanation. I steer clear of hurtful people when I spot them. That individual has been blocked from contact so I won't have to hear from him again. I will appropriately warn others of the scenario so people can decide what action they may want to take. GRRR! Thank you so much!!!! Jaie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Wow Katrina, That's both chilling a and sobering. Blame the victims - that is the easiest thing to do right? If the victims say nothing, everyone can go on business as usual except the victim who must suffer violation and then violate themselves? Oh, heck no! That should never be. If only they could require that anyone convicted of a crime undergo psychological treatment that is deemed successful before being unleashed on society - I wonder how many victims would be saved. Nada has a rap sheet. Her sense of entitlement is astounding. Unfortunately, she defrauded the welfare system claiming she had custody of a child she did not have. She did that for year. I know of one time, my niece was with me for a month - nada dumped her on my doorstep and said take care of her, I can't deal with her any more. We were nearly bankrupt and my brother and the baby's mother were just not in a place to have custody or provide support...nada collected the welfare check that month. They don't even know about that one. They also don't know that she sells the narcotics they pay for. If only they would have some how pulled her into psychotherapy right then and there, they might have saved themselves years of welfare payments. Nada might have worked. Ugh. My heart goes out to the victims of child abuse, the victims of rape and crime, the victims of closet NPDs who totally fake who they are and then seek to destroy the women their with....all of these victims of psychological abuse. God I so wish there was a bigger answer, a better answer to stop them, make them get treatment so they couldn't harm anyone else. It just makes me so very sad. But, we do have the will to survive, to transcend and to learn. Ya never know, I could have been talking to someone who had the BPD diagnosis and were really PO'd at me for what I did to nada. That sounds like a more realistic explanation. I steer clear of hurtful people when I spot them. That individual has been blocked from contact so I won't have to hear from him again. I will appropriately warn others of the scenario so people can decide what action they may want to take. GRRR! Thank you so much!!!! Jaie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Wow Katrina, That's both chilling a and sobering. Blame the victims - that is the easiest thing to do right? If the victims say nothing, everyone can go on business as usual except the victim who must suffer violation and then violate themselves? Oh, heck no! That should never be. If only they could require that anyone convicted of a crime undergo psychological treatment that is deemed successful before being unleashed on society - I wonder how many victims would be saved. Nada has a rap sheet. Her sense of entitlement is astounding. Unfortunately, she defrauded the welfare system claiming she had custody of a child she did not have. She did that for year. I know of one time, my niece was with me for a month - nada dumped her on my doorstep and said take care of her, I can't deal with her any more. We were nearly bankrupt and my brother and the baby's mother were just not in a place to have custody or provide support...nada collected the welfare check that month. They don't even know about that one. They also don't know that she sells the narcotics they pay for. If only they would have some how pulled her into psychotherapy right then and there, they might have saved themselves years of welfare payments. Nada might have worked. Ugh. My heart goes out to the victims of child abuse, the victims of rape and crime, the victims of closet NPDs who totally fake who they are and then seek to destroy the women their with....all of these victims of psychological abuse. God I so wish there was a bigger answer, a better answer to stop them, make them get treatment so they couldn't harm anyone else. It just makes me so very sad. But, we do have the will to survive, to transcend and to learn. Ya never know, I could have been talking to someone who had the BPD diagnosis and were really PO'd at me for what I did to nada. That sounds like a more realistic explanation. I steer clear of hurtful people when I spot them. That individual has been blocked from contact so I won't have to hear from him again. I will appropriately warn others of the scenario so people can decide what action they may want to take. GRRR! Thank you so much!!!! Jaie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 ((((Jaie))))) I SO get this!! As a Christian, I'm constantly tripped up by " sanctified codependence. " The Christian community, (and maybe many other spiritual communities) seems to have hi-jacked spirituality to defend codependence and ungodly dysfunction. Phew--a little strong there, no? You can tell how much this one gets to me!!! Again, my spiritual perspective is Christianity, so I'll speak from this " lens. " If you don't share my religious perspective, I'm asking for a little grace--hopefully, my point will transfer. Jesus didn't round up the BPD, narcissistic, abusive addicts for his inner circle. Yes, his disciples were human and flawed. But none of them hi-jacked his life because of their severe dysfunction. None of them abused Jesus and used his " forgiveness " to continue to do so. None of them worked towards Jesus' destruction (however unintentionally). There are a few times in the Bible when Jesus' enemies were coming after him. When Jesus got wind of the fact that his life was in danger, he didn't stick around due to some misguided idealism of a perfect ending. He quickly got out of town. In other words, Jesus never ever endured/risked his well-being just to placate someone else's dysfunction. Crucifixion aside, of course! :-) Jesus respected others' decisions and let them be who they chose to be. (Rich young ruler is a good example). That included letting them walk away, even if that meant bad things for them. He never chased people down trying to rescue them. I could go on . . . but crazymaking with sweet spiritual platitudes is crazymaking nonetheless. Enduring abuse for another's sick lusts isn't holy. That's just stupid. " Forgiving " someone into changing is based on the premise that you have the power to change another person. We can only change ourselves, and even that is questionable with a personality disorder. Hope that makes sense. The books Boundaries and " Love is a Choice " really helped me on this one. GAH this stuff really gets to me!! As if abuse isn't bad enough to endure . . . people (however well-intentioned) have to add a layer of guilt on top of it all. Sheesh. Blessings, Karla > > No matter how far you get on your journey of recovery, there is always something to explore and learn. > > I'm a little angry today, seemingly, at the spiritual community I'm involved in. They're really good people but there are some phrases bantered about where I think they are missing the point...but then again, they're touching buttons of mine... > > Basically the phrases boil down to these: > > 1. If I had truly given nada my forgiveness, I would have her in my life and continue demonstrating my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > 2. If I really loved nada without condition, I would have her in my life, ignore her abuse, and continue to demonstrate my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > 3. If really had any compassion, I would be understanding that the insults and verbal/vulgar abuse she showers me with are only her wounds and I would not be witholding my love for her. > > 4. Your relationships with people, particularly your mother, shows the real person you are on the inside - so, then I am what she says - selfish, cold and uncaring. > > So, the root of my anger is obvious, there is still some guilt I carry at kicking her out of my life, moving and leaving her no forwarding address and changing my home and cell phone numbers so she cannot contact me. > > I don't think I'm delusional (I could be and I'll look at that) but I see myself as I kind, loving and very compassionate soul. I tend towards co-dependency so I'm very careful not to get involved in rescuing people but that pretty much sums me up. I live to help others while I live and learn here in life. I've been through hell and back and still I really care most about helping others to heal and transcend pain in their lives. > > I do care a bit about what people think - particularly in the spiritual realms. If I believe myself a spiritual individual, I am acting rather un-spiritually with nada in that I refuse to stand there and take her abuse, I can't function in my life as a single mother due to the PTSD responses I still have from her abusive, vulgar, truly disgusting soul assassination she attempts with me. But I have this feeling of failure sometimes when I have great relationships with everyone in the world except for abusive people. The guys I ran into with NPD - definitely no good relationships there and I don't care. Just glad they're gone. The Bi-polar ex and I have a great relationship - we get along better now not married than when we were married. I truly love him unconditionally - I just couldn't live with him and be his mate while he was using. he chose substance - I chose sanity. It didn't change my love for him. Its like that with nada to. I love her unconditionally but I cannot pretend to be a loving wonderful daughter to a woman who is out to destroy me if I won't let her take over and ruin my safe sanctuary of home, who's bills I refuse to pay because as a single mom I just have enough for us and who I won't drop everything including caring for my kids to lavish her with physical affection when I'm just not feeling it, who I won't max out the credit cards for to buy her dentures so she can look good (I didn't force her to eat oxycodone like candy rotting her teeth out of her head - cause her to stop with normal oral hygene), I won't call pawn shops all over this land and pay for pawn tickets with interest to retrieve her jewelry. These things would make her stop abusing me until the next thing comes up she can do splitting with. > > Really - Am I really wrong in God's eyes for seeking to protect myself? I used an analogy earlier - I love all of God's creatures - I really do and I love them without condition but I'm not going to take a nap next to a hungry tiger or snuggle up to a rattle snake. That would be deadly to me. I have absolutely judged my mother but in this way only - I believe her to be incredibly ill because no mother, for any reason would ever treat her kids the way she treated me, no mother would beg her kids to go deeply into debt - we're talking in the thousands and thousands to rescue her from her bad decisions, I believe she's wrong for seeking vengeance against her child, I believe she is sick, angry, abusive, delusional, unfit, unloving, hurtful and more. I judge her unsafe for me. I can come to the conclusion that I understand what she says isn't about me and I am really strong but I tried to employ this logic and rationalization when she was in my home and she destroyed it. My home has always been my sanctuary, the one place in the world that we were always safe but when she moved in and stayed for 30 days, I wasn't even safe enough to sleep. She'd wake me up at 11 or 12 at night on a work night (I have to get up at 4:00 a.m.) and pick a fight with me about some delusional thing. I'd go to get a cup of coffee in the morning and I was attacked for not beleiving in an hallucination that I could visibly tell was unreal. I couldn't use the bathroom without her knocking on the door. I couldn't open a cabinet without finding a hateful post-it note. I couldn't walk out to my car without finding a note book under my windsheild wiper filed with pages of hate, manipulation, insult and guilt. There was no place in my home I could be safe from her harm and abuse and yet I see all these spiritual people spouting these really beautiful, loving and spiritual things that make me feel so bad and so guilty that I chose peace and emotional safety in my home for me and I my kids, that I chose to love myself instead of putting up with her illness and abuse. > > If I'm wrong here, I'm chosing not to be right forever because I'll never go back and maybe she's right and I will burn in hell miserably for chosing to kick her out and refuse to talk to her or listen to minutes and minutes filled with hatred and filthy language and vulgar insults and threats to " get me. " I just cannot believe that God would send me to hell for protecting myself and my kids from my hateful abusive mother. I believe that I am not a bad person just because I cannot have a relationship with my mother. My mother is obviously mentally ill but I am judged by her insanity. Try going out on date with someone - they always want to know how your relationship is with your mother. I always just say i love her and change the subject for another time after they get to know me a little better so I'm not so unfairly judged. > > How is it that victims of rape or other crimes are supported by the world with empathy and protection and all we get is downward glances and judgment unfairly? We were victims. I won't be a victim any more. I refuse it and with everything in me I will heal this lie she implanted in me of guilt for doing what I had to do to emotionally survive. > > Okay - my vent is over. Thanks for listening. I guess I just had to let it out. > > Jaie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 ((((Jaie))))) I SO get this!! As a Christian, I'm constantly tripped up by " sanctified codependence. " The Christian community, (and maybe many other spiritual communities) seems to have hi-jacked spirituality to defend codependence and ungodly dysfunction. Phew--a little strong there, no? You can tell how much this one gets to me!!! Again, my spiritual perspective is Christianity, so I'll speak from this " lens. " If you don't share my religious perspective, I'm asking for a little grace--hopefully, my point will transfer. Jesus didn't round up the BPD, narcissistic, abusive addicts for his inner circle. Yes, his disciples were human and flawed. But none of them hi-jacked his life because of their severe dysfunction. None of them abused Jesus and used his " forgiveness " to continue to do so. None of them worked towards Jesus' destruction (however unintentionally). There are a few times in the Bible when Jesus' enemies were coming after him. When Jesus got wind of the fact that his life was in danger, he didn't stick around due to some misguided idealism of a perfect ending. He quickly got out of town. In other words, Jesus never ever endured/risked his well-being just to placate someone else's dysfunction. Crucifixion aside, of course! :-) Jesus respected others' decisions and let them be who they chose to be. (Rich young ruler is a good example). That included letting them walk away, even if that meant bad things for them. He never chased people down trying to rescue them. I could go on . . . but crazymaking with sweet spiritual platitudes is crazymaking nonetheless. Enduring abuse for another's sick lusts isn't holy. That's just stupid. " Forgiving " someone into changing is based on the premise that you have the power to change another person. We can only change ourselves, and even that is questionable with a personality disorder. Hope that makes sense. The books Boundaries and " Love is a Choice " really helped me on this one. GAH this stuff really gets to me!! As if abuse isn't bad enough to endure . . . people (however well-intentioned) have to add a layer of guilt on top of it all. Sheesh. Blessings, Karla > > No matter how far you get on your journey of recovery, there is always something to explore and learn. > > I'm a little angry today, seemingly, at the spiritual community I'm involved in. They're really good people but there are some phrases bantered about where I think they are missing the point...but then again, they're touching buttons of mine... > > Basically the phrases boil down to these: > > 1. If I had truly given nada my forgiveness, I would have her in my life and continue demonstrating my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > 2. If I really loved nada without condition, I would have her in my life, ignore her abuse, and continue to demonstrate my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > 3. If really had any compassion, I would be understanding that the insults and verbal/vulgar abuse she showers me with are only her wounds and I would not be witholding my love for her. > > 4. Your relationships with people, particularly your mother, shows the real person you are on the inside - so, then I am what she says - selfish, cold and uncaring. > > So, the root of my anger is obvious, there is still some guilt I carry at kicking her out of my life, moving and leaving her no forwarding address and changing my home and cell phone numbers so she cannot contact me. > > I don't think I'm delusional (I could be and I'll look at that) but I see myself as I kind, loving and very compassionate soul. I tend towards co-dependency so I'm very careful not to get involved in rescuing people but that pretty much sums me up. I live to help others while I live and learn here in life. I've been through hell and back and still I really care most about helping others to heal and transcend pain in their lives. > > I do care a bit about what people think - particularly in the spiritual realms. If I believe myself a spiritual individual, I am acting rather un-spiritually with nada in that I refuse to stand there and take her abuse, I can't function in my life as a single mother due to the PTSD responses I still have from her abusive, vulgar, truly disgusting soul assassination she attempts with me. But I have this feeling of failure sometimes when I have great relationships with everyone in the world except for abusive people. The guys I ran into with NPD - definitely no good relationships there and I don't care. Just glad they're gone. The Bi-polar ex and I have a great relationship - we get along better now not married than when we were married. I truly love him unconditionally - I just couldn't live with him and be his mate while he was using. he chose substance - I chose sanity. It didn't change my love for him. Its like that with nada to. I love her unconditionally but I cannot pretend to be a loving wonderful daughter to a woman who is out to destroy me if I won't let her take over and ruin my safe sanctuary of home, who's bills I refuse to pay because as a single mom I just have enough for us and who I won't drop everything including caring for my kids to lavish her with physical affection when I'm just not feeling it, who I won't max out the credit cards for to buy her dentures so she can look good (I didn't force her to eat oxycodone like candy rotting her teeth out of her head - cause her to stop with normal oral hygene), I won't call pawn shops all over this land and pay for pawn tickets with interest to retrieve her jewelry. These things would make her stop abusing me until the next thing comes up she can do splitting with. > > Really - Am I really wrong in God's eyes for seeking to protect myself? I used an analogy earlier - I love all of God's creatures - I really do and I love them without condition but I'm not going to take a nap next to a hungry tiger or snuggle up to a rattle snake. That would be deadly to me. I have absolutely judged my mother but in this way only - I believe her to be incredibly ill because no mother, for any reason would ever treat her kids the way she treated me, no mother would beg her kids to go deeply into debt - we're talking in the thousands and thousands to rescue her from her bad decisions, I believe she's wrong for seeking vengeance against her child, I believe she is sick, angry, abusive, delusional, unfit, unloving, hurtful and more. I judge her unsafe for me. I can come to the conclusion that I understand what she says isn't about me and I am really strong but I tried to employ this logic and rationalization when she was in my home and she destroyed it. My home has always been my sanctuary, the one place in the world that we were always safe but when she moved in and stayed for 30 days, I wasn't even safe enough to sleep. She'd wake me up at 11 or 12 at night on a work night (I have to get up at 4:00 a.m.) and pick a fight with me about some delusional thing. I'd go to get a cup of coffee in the morning and I was attacked for not beleiving in an hallucination that I could visibly tell was unreal. I couldn't use the bathroom without her knocking on the door. I couldn't open a cabinet without finding a hateful post-it note. I couldn't walk out to my car without finding a note book under my windsheild wiper filed with pages of hate, manipulation, insult and guilt. There was no place in my home I could be safe from her harm and abuse and yet I see all these spiritual people spouting these really beautiful, loving and spiritual things that make me feel so bad and so guilty that I chose peace and emotional safety in my home for me and I my kids, that I chose to love myself instead of putting up with her illness and abuse. > > If I'm wrong here, I'm chosing not to be right forever because I'll never go back and maybe she's right and I will burn in hell miserably for chosing to kick her out and refuse to talk to her or listen to minutes and minutes filled with hatred and filthy language and vulgar insults and threats to " get me. " I just cannot believe that God would send me to hell for protecting myself and my kids from my hateful abusive mother. I believe that I am not a bad person just because I cannot have a relationship with my mother. My mother is obviously mentally ill but I am judged by her insanity. Try going out on date with someone - they always want to know how your relationship is with your mother. I always just say i love her and change the subject for another time after they get to know me a little better so I'm not so unfairly judged. > > How is it that victims of rape or other crimes are supported by the world with empathy and protection and all we get is downward glances and judgment unfairly? We were victims. I won't be a victim any more. I refuse it and with everything in me I will heal this lie she implanted in me of guilt for doing what I had to do to emotionally survive. > > Okay - my vent is over. Thanks for listening. I guess I just had to let it out. > > Jaie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 ((((Jaie))))) I SO get this!! As a Christian, I'm constantly tripped up by " sanctified codependence. " The Christian community, (and maybe many other spiritual communities) seems to have hi-jacked spirituality to defend codependence and ungodly dysfunction. Phew--a little strong there, no? You can tell how much this one gets to me!!! Again, my spiritual perspective is Christianity, so I'll speak from this " lens. " If you don't share my religious perspective, I'm asking for a little grace--hopefully, my point will transfer. Jesus didn't round up the BPD, narcissistic, abusive addicts for his inner circle. Yes, his disciples were human and flawed. But none of them hi-jacked his life because of their severe dysfunction. None of them abused Jesus and used his " forgiveness " to continue to do so. None of them worked towards Jesus' destruction (however unintentionally). There are a few times in the Bible when Jesus' enemies were coming after him. When Jesus got wind of the fact that his life was in danger, he didn't stick around due to some misguided idealism of a perfect ending. He quickly got out of town. In other words, Jesus never ever endured/risked his well-being just to placate someone else's dysfunction. Crucifixion aside, of course! :-) Jesus respected others' decisions and let them be who they chose to be. (Rich young ruler is a good example). That included letting them walk away, even if that meant bad things for them. He never chased people down trying to rescue them. I could go on . . . but crazymaking with sweet spiritual platitudes is crazymaking nonetheless. Enduring abuse for another's sick lusts isn't holy. That's just stupid. " Forgiving " someone into changing is based on the premise that you have the power to change another person. We can only change ourselves, and even that is questionable with a personality disorder. Hope that makes sense. The books Boundaries and " Love is a Choice " really helped me on this one. GAH this stuff really gets to me!! As if abuse isn't bad enough to endure . . . people (however well-intentioned) have to add a layer of guilt on top of it all. Sheesh. Blessings, Karla > > No matter how far you get on your journey of recovery, there is always something to explore and learn. > > I'm a little angry today, seemingly, at the spiritual community I'm involved in. They're really good people but there are some phrases bantered about where I think they are missing the point...but then again, they're touching buttons of mine... > > Basically the phrases boil down to these: > > 1. If I had truly given nada my forgiveness, I would have her in my life and continue demonstrating my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > 2. If I really loved nada without condition, I would have her in my life, ignore her abuse, and continue to demonstrate my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > 3. If really had any compassion, I would be understanding that the insults and verbal/vulgar abuse she showers me with are only her wounds and I would not be witholding my love for her. > > 4. Your relationships with people, particularly your mother, shows the real person you are on the inside - so, then I am what she says - selfish, cold and uncaring. > > So, the root of my anger is obvious, there is still some guilt I carry at kicking her out of my life, moving and leaving her no forwarding address and changing my home and cell phone numbers so she cannot contact me. > > I don't think I'm delusional (I could be and I'll look at that) but I see myself as I kind, loving and very compassionate soul. I tend towards co-dependency so I'm very careful not to get involved in rescuing people but that pretty much sums me up. I live to help others while I live and learn here in life. I've been through hell and back and still I really care most about helping others to heal and transcend pain in their lives. > > I do care a bit about what people think - particularly in the spiritual realms. If I believe myself a spiritual individual, I am acting rather un-spiritually with nada in that I refuse to stand there and take her abuse, I can't function in my life as a single mother due to the PTSD responses I still have from her abusive, vulgar, truly disgusting soul assassination she attempts with me. But I have this feeling of failure sometimes when I have great relationships with everyone in the world except for abusive people. The guys I ran into with NPD - definitely no good relationships there and I don't care. Just glad they're gone. The Bi-polar ex and I have a great relationship - we get along better now not married than when we were married. I truly love him unconditionally - I just couldn't live with him and be his mate while he was using. he chose substance - I chose sanity. It didn't change my love for him. Its like that with nada to. I love her unconditionally but I cannot pretend to be a loving wonderful daughter to a woman who is out to destroy me if I won't let her take over and ruin my safe sanctuary of home, who's bills I refuse to pay because as a single mom I just have enough for us and who I won't drop everything including caring for my kids to lavish her with physical affection when I'm just not feeling it, who I won't max out the credit cards for to buy her dentures so she can look good (I didn't force her to eat oxycodone like candy rotting her teeth out of her head - cause her to stop with normal oral hygene), I won't call pawn shops all over this land and pay for pawn tickets with interest to retrieve her jewelry. These things would make her stop abusing me until the next thing comes up she can do splitting with. > > Really - Am I really wrong in God's eyes for seeking to protect myself? I used an analogy earlier - I love all of God's creatures - I really do and I love them without condition but I'm not going to take a nap next to a hungry tiger or snuggle up to a rattle snake. That would be deadly to me. I have absolutely judged my mother but in this way only - I believe her to be incredibly ill because no mother, for any reason would ever treat her kids the way she treated me, no mother would beg her kids to go deeply into debt - we're talking in the thousands and thousands to rescue her from her bad decisions, I believe she's wrong for seeking vengeance against her child, I believe she is sick, angry, abusive, delusional, unfit, unloving, hurtful and more. I judge her unsafe for me. I can come to the conclusion that I understand what she says isn't about me and I am really strong but I tried to employ this logic and rationalization when she was in my home and she destroyed it. My home has always been my sanctuary, the one place in the world that we were always safe but when she moved in and stayed for 30 days, I wasn't even safe enough to sleep. She'd wake me up at 11 or 12 at night on a work night (I have to get up at 4:00 a.m.) and pick a fight with me about some delusional thing. I'd go to get a cup of coffee in the morning and I was attacked for not beleiving in an hallucination that I could visibly tell was unreal. I couldn't use the bathroom without her knocking on the door. I couldn't open a cabinet without finding a hateful post-it note. I couldn't walk out to my car without finding a note book under my windsheild wiper filed with pages of hate, manipulation, insult and guilt. There was no place in my home I could be safe from her harm and abuse and yet I see all these spiritual people spouting these really beautiful, loving and spiritual things that make me feel so bad and so guilty that I chose peace and emotional safety in my home for me and I my kids, that I chose to love myself instead of putting up with her illness and abuse. > > If I'm wrong here, I'm chosing not to be right forever because I'll never go back and maybe she's right and I will burn in hell miserably for chosing to kick her out and refuse to talk to her or listen to minutes and minutes filled with hatred and filthy language and vulgar insults and threats to " get me. " I just cannot believe that God would send me to hell for protecting myself and my kids from my hateful abusive mother. I believe that I am not a bad person just because I cannot have a relationship with my mother. My mother is obviously mentally ill but I am judged by her insanity. Try going out on date with someone - they always want to know how your relationship is with your mother. I always just say i love her and change the subject for another time after they get to know me a little better so I'm not so unfairly judged. > > How is it that victims of rape or other crimes are supported by the world with empathy and protection and all we get is downward glances and judgment unfairly? We were victims. I won't be a victim any more. I refuse it and with everything in me I will heal this lie she implanted in me of guilt for doing what I had to do to emotionally survive. > > Okay - my vent is over. Thanks for listening. I guess I just had to let it out. > > Jaie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Interesting note that might be of service: When the Bible says " judge not, " that word should be translated as " condemn. " " Judging " in this instance is the sentiment expressed when you tell someone to " go to hell. " (Doesn't sound at all like you, by the way). The Bible is strongly encourages another form of " judging, " which is " to be discerning. " Masochism via a nada is definitely not discerning. A pastor friend told me that a few years ago. That made TONS more sense to me!! Blessings, Karla > > It was an online friend. I have appropriately judged this person as unsafe for me so have cut contact. But it just upset me to be the victim (which I hate the idea of) and then have spirituality, (which i love because it has saved my life), be used as a tool to twist the knife further. Who knows why they did it and I don't really care any more. I felt the twist in my gut that is never wrong in judging people unsafe for me and so I won't have to deal with that one again. > > I'm fiercely protective when this issue comes up. I'm sick to death of anyone telling me not to be judgmental, when that very statement is being used in the moment out of sync with the biblical passage. The new agers drive insane with this " don't judge " business. Go sit next to a hungry tiger. Don't you dare be scared, don't judge. they then start to get the point. Some judgment is necessary for your survival. That is appropriate judgment. > > Thanks so much for your support! > > Jaie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Interesting note that might be of service: When the Bible says " judge not, " that word should be translated as " condemn. " " Judging " in this instance is the sentiment expressed when you tell someone to " go to hell. " (Doesn't sound at all like you, by the way). The Bible is strongly encourages another form of " judging, " which is " to be discerning. " Masochism via a nada is definitely not discerning. A pastor friend told me that a few years ago. That made TONS more sense to me!! Blessings, Karla > > It was an online friend. I have appropriately judged this person as unsafe for me so have cut contact. But it just upset me to be the victim (which I hate the idea of) and then have spirituality, (which i love because it has saved my life), be used as a tool to twist the knife further. Who knows why they did it and I don't really care any more. I felt the twist in my gut that is never wrong in judging people unsafe for me and so I won't have to deal with that one again. > > I'm fiercely protective when this issue comes up. I'm sick to death of anyone telling me not to be judgmental, when that very statement is being used in the moment out of sync with the biblical passage. The new agers drive insane with this " don't judge " business. Go sit next to a hungry tiger. Don't you dare be scared, don't judge. they then start to get the point. Some judgment is necessary for your survival. That is appropriate judgment. > > Thanks so much for your support! > > Jaie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, by & VanVonderen. It's not the best-written book in the world, but I just like the fact that it exists. Blessings, Karla > > > > > > No matter how far you get on your journey of recovery, there is always > > something to explore and learn. > > > > > > I'm a little angry today, seemingly, at the spiritual community I'm > > involved in. They're really good people but there are some phrases bantered > > about where I think they are missing the point...but then again, they're > > touching buttons of mine... > > > > > > Basically the phrases boil down to these: > > > > > > 1. If I had truly given nada my forgiveness, I would have her in my life > > and continue demonstrating my love for her physically, emotionally and > > financially in whatever way she needs. > > > > > > 2. If I really loved nada without condition, I would have her in my life, > > ignore her abuse, and continue to demonstrate my love for her physically, > > emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > > > > > 3. If really had any compassion, I would be understanding that the > > insults and verbal/vulgar abuse she showers me with are only her wounds and > > I would not be witholding my love for her. > > > > > > 4. Your relationships with people, particularly your mother, shows the > > real person you are on the inside - so, then I am what she says - selfish, > > cold and uncaring. > > > > > > So, the root of my anger is obvious, there is still some guilt I carry at > > kicking her out of my life, moving and leaving her no forwarding address and > > changing my home and cell phone numbers so she cannot contact me. > > > > > > I don't think I'm delusional (I could be and I'll look at that) but I see > > myself as I kind, loving and very compassionate soul. I tend towards > > co-dependency so I'm very careful not to get involved in rescuing people but > > that pretty much sums me up. I live to help others while I live and learn > > here in life. I've been through hell and back and still I really care most > > about helping others to heal and transcend pain in their lives. > > > > > > I do care a bit about what people think - particularly in the spiritual > > realms. If I believe myself a spiritual individual, I am acting rather > > un-spiritually with nada in that I refuse to stand there and take her abuse, > > I can't function in my life as a single mother due to the PTSD responses I > > still have from her abusive, vulgar, truly disgusting soul assassination she > > attempts with me. But I have this feeling of failure sometimes when I have > > great relationships with everyone in the world except for abusive people. > > The guys I ran into with NPD - definitely no good relationships there and I > > don't care. Just glad they're gone. The Bi-polar ex and I have a great > > relationship - we get along better now not married than when we were > > married. I truly love him unconditionally - I just couldn't live with him > > and be his mate while he was using. he chose substance - I chose sanity. It > > didn't change my love for him. Its like that with nada to. I love her > > unconditionally but I cannot pretend to be a loving wonderful daughter to a > > woman who is out to destroy me if I won't let her take over and ruin my safe > > sanctuary of home, who's bills I refuse to pay because as a single mom I > > just have enough for us and who I won't drop everything including caring for > > my kids to lavish her with physical affection when I'm just not feeling it, > > who I won't max out the credit cards for to buy her dentures so she can look > > good (I didn't force her to eat oxycodone like candy rotting her teeth out > > of her head - cause her to stop with normal oral hygene), I won't call pawn > > shops all over this land and pay for pawn tickets with interest to retrieve > > her jewelry. These things would make her stop abusing me until the next > > thing comes up she can do splitting with. > > > > > > Really - Am I really wrong in God's eyes for seeking to protect myself? I > > used an analogy earlier - I love all of God's creatures - I really do and I > > love them without condition but I'm not going to take a nap next to a hungry > > tiger or snuggle up to a rattle snake. That would be deadly to me. I have > > absolutely judged my mother but in this way only - I believe her to be > > incredibly ill because no mother, for any reason would ever treat her kids > > the way she treated me, no mother would beg her kids to go deeply into debt > > - we're talking in the thousands and thousands to rescue her from her bad > > decisions, I believe she's wrong for seeking vengeance against her child, I > > believe she is sick, angry, abusive, delusional, unfit, unloving, hurtful > > and more. I judge her unsafe for me. I can come to the conclusion that I > > understand what she says isn't about me and I am really strong but I tried > > to employ this logic and rationalization when she was in my home and she > > destroyed it. My home has always been my sanctuary, the one place in the > > world that we were always safe but when she moved in and stayed for 30 days, > > I wasn't even safe enough to sleep. She'd wake me up at 11 or 12 at night on > > a work night (I have to get up at 4:00 a.m.) and pick a fight with me about > > some delusional thing. I'd go to get a cup of coffee in the morning and I > > was attacked for not beleiving in an hallucination that I could visibly tell > > was unreal. I couldn't use the bathroom without her knocking on the door. I > > couldn't open a cabinet without finding a hateful post-it note. I couldn't > > walk out to my car without finding a note book under my windsheild wiper > > filed with pages of hate, manipulation, insult and guilt. There was no place > > in my home I could be safe from her harm and abuse and yet I see all these > > spiritual people spouting these really beautiful, loving and spiritual > > things that make me feel so bad and so guilty that I chose peace and > > emotional safety in my home for me and I my kids, that I chose to love > > myself instead of putting up with her illness and abuse. > > > > > > If I'm wrong here, I'm chosing not to be right forever because I'll never > > go back and maybe she's right and I will burn in hell miserably for chosing > > to kick her out and refuse to talk to her or listen to minutes and minutes > > filled with hatred and filthy language and vulgar insults and threats to > > " get me. " I just cannot believe that God would send me to hell for > > protecting myself and my kids from my hateful abusive mother. I believe that > > I am not a bad person just because I cannot have a relationship with my > > mother. My mother is obviously mentally ill but I am judged by her insanity. > > Try going out on date with someone - they always want to know how your > > relationship is with your mother. I always just say i love her and change > > the subject for another time after they get to know me a little better so > > I'm not so unfairly judged. > > > > > > How is it that victims of rape or other crimes are supported by the world > > with empathy and protection and all we get is downward glances and judgment > > unfairly? We were victims. I won't be a victim any more. I refuse it and > > with everything in me I will heal this lie she implanted in me of guilt for > > doing what I had to do to emotionally survive. > > > > > > Okay - my vent is over. Thanks for listening. I guess I just had to let > > it out. > > > > > > Jaie > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, by & VanVonderen. It's not the best-written book in the world, but I just like the fact that it exists. Blessings, Karla > > > > > > No matter how far you get on your journey of recovery, there is always > > something to explore and learn. > > > > > > I'm a little angry today, seemingly, at the spiritual community I'm > > involved in. They're really good people but there are some phrases bantered > > about where I think they are missing the point...but then again, they're > > touching buttons of mine... > > > > > > Basically the phrases boil down to these: > > > > > > 1. If I had truly given nada my forgiveness, I would have her in my life > > and continue demonstrating my love for her physically, emotionally and > > financially in whatever way she needs. > > > > > > 2. If I really loved nada without condition, I would have her in my life, > > ignore her abuse, and continue to demonstrate my love for her physically, > > emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > > > > > 3. If really had any compassion, I would be understanding that the > > insults and verbal/vulgar abuse she showers me with are only her wounds and > > I would not be witholding my love for her. > > > > > > 4. Your relationships with people, particularly your mother, shows the > > real person you are on the inside - so, then I am what she says - selfish, > > cold and uncaring. > > > > > > So, the root of my anger is obvious, there is still some guilt I carry at > > kicking her out of my life, moving and leaving her no forwarding address and > > changing my home and cell phone numbers so she cannot contact me. > > > > > > I don't think I'm delusional (I could be and I'll look at that) but I see > > myself as I kind, loving and very compassionate soul. I tend towards > > co-dependency so I'm very careful not to get involved in rescuing people but > > that pretty much sums me up. I live to help others while I live and learn > > here in life. I've been through hell and back and still I really care most > > about helping others to heal and transcend pain in their lives. > > > > > > I do care a bit about what people think - particularly in the spiritual > > realms. If I believe myself a spiritual individual, I am acting rather > > un-spiritually with nada in that I refuse to stand there and take her abuse, > > I can't function in my life as a single mother due to the PTSD responses I > > still have from her abusive, vulgar, truly disgusting soul assassination she > > attempts with me. But I have this feeling of failure sometimes when I have > > great relationships with everyone in the world except for abusive people. > > The guys I ran into with NPD - definitely no good relationships there and I > > don't care. Just glad they're gone. The Bi-polar ex and I have a great > > relationship - we get along better now not married than when we were > > married. I truly love him unconditionally - I just couldn't live with him > > and be his mate while he was using. he chose substance - I chose sanity. It > > didn't change my love for him. Its like that with nada to. I love her > > unconditionally but I cannot pretend to be a loving wonderful daughter to a > > woman who is out to destroy me if I won't let her take over and ruin my safe > > sanctuary of home, who's bills I refuse to pay because as a single mom I > > just have enough for us and who I won't drop everything including caring for > > my kids to lavish her with physical affection when I'm just not feeling it, > > who I won't max out the credit cards for to buy her dentures so she can look > > good (I didn't force her to eat oxycodone like candy rotting her teeth out > > of her head - cause her to stop with normal oral hygene), I won't call pawn > > shops all over this land and pay for pawn tickets with interest to retrieve > > her jewelry. These things would make her stop abusing me until the next > > thing comes up she can do splitting with. > > > > > > Really - Am I really wrong in God's eyes for seeking to protect myself? I > > used an analogy earlier - I love all of God's creatures - I really do and I > > love them without condition but I'm not going to take a nap next to a hungry > > tiger or snuggle up to a rattle snake. That would be deadly to me. I have > > absolutely judged my mother but in this way only - I believe her to be > > incredibly ill because no mother, for any reason would ever treat her kids > > the way she treated me, no mother would beg her kids to go deeply into debt > > - we're talking in the thousands and thousands to rescue her from her bad > > decisions, I believe she's wrong for seeking vengeance against her child, I > > believe she is sick, angry, abusive, delusional, unfit, unloving, hurtful > > and more. I judge her unsafe for me. I can come to the conclusion that I > > understand what she says isn't about me and I am really strong but I tried > > to employ this logic and rationalization when she was in my home and she > > destroyed it. My home has always been my sanctuary, the one place in the > > world that we were always safe but when she moved in and stayed for 30 days, > > I wasn't even safe enough to sleep. She'd wake me up at 11 or 12 at night on > > a work night (I have to get up at 4:00 a.m.) and pick a fight with me about > > some delusional thing. I'd go to get a cup of coffee in the morning and I > > was attacked for not beleiving in an hallucination that I could visibly tell > > was unreal. I couldn't use the bathroom without her knocking on the door. I > > couldn't open a cabinet without finding a hateful post-it note. I couldn't > > walk out to my car without finding a note book under my windsheild wiper > > filed with pages of hate, manipulation, insult and guilt. There was no place > > in my home I could be safe from her harm and abuse and yet I see all these > > spiritual people spouting these really beautiful, loving and spiritual > > things that make me feel so bad and so guilty that I chose peace and > > emotional safety in my home for me and I my kids, that I chose to love > > myself instead of putting up with her illness and abuse. > > > > > > If I'm wrong here, I'm chosing not to be right forever because I'll never > > go back and maybe she's right and I will burn in hell miserably for chosing > > to kick her out and refuse to talk to her or listen to minutes and minutes > > filled with hatred and filthy language and vulgar insults and threats to > > " get me. " I just cannot believe that God would send me to hell for > > protecting myself and my kids from my hateful abusive mother. I believe that > > I am not a bad person just because I cannot have a relationship with my > > mother. My mother is obviously mentally ill but I am judged by her insanity. > > Try going out on date with someone - they always want to know how your > > relationship is with your mother. I always just say i love her and change > > the subject for another time after they get to know me a little better so > > I'm not so unfairly judged. > > > > > > How is it that victims of rape or other crimes are supported by the world > > with empathy and protection and all we get is downward glances and judgment > > unfairly? We were victims. I won't be a victim any more. I refuse it and > > with everything in me I will heal this lie she implanted in me of guilt for > > doing what I had to do to emotionally survive. > > > > > > Okay - my vent is over. Thanks for listening. I guess I just had to let > > it out. > > > > > > Jaie > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, by & VanVonderen. It's not the best-written book in the world, but I just like the fact that it exists. Blessings, Karla > > > > > > No matter how far you get on your journey of recovery, there is always > > something to explore and learn. > > > > > > I'm a little angry today, seemingly, at the spiritual community I'm > > involved in. They're really good people but there are some phrases bantered > > about where I think they are missing the point...but then again, they're > > touching buttons of mine... > > > > > > Basically the phrases boil down to these: > > > > > > 1. If I had truly given nada my forgiveness, I would have her in my life > > and continue demonstrating my love for her physically, emotionally and > > financially in whatever way she needs. > > > > > > 2. If I really loved nada without condition, I would have her in my life, > > ignore her abuse, and continue to demonstrate my love for her physically, > > emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > > > > > 3. If really had any compassion, I would be understanding that the > > insults and verbal/vulgar abuse she showers me with are only her wounds and > > I would not be witholding my love for her. > > > > > > 4. Your relationships with people, particularly your mother, shows the > > real person you are on the inside - so, then I am what she says - selfish, > > cold and uncaring. > > > > > > So, the root of my anger is obvious, there is still some guilt I carry at > > kicking her out of my life, moving and leaving her no forwarding address and > > changing my home and cell phone numbers so she cannot contact me. > > > > > > I don't think I'm delusional (I could be and I'll look at that) but I see > > myself as I kind, loving and very compassionate soul. I tend towards > > co-dependency so I'm very careful not to get involved in rescuing people but > > that pretty much sums me up. I live to help others while I live and learn > > here in life. I've been through hell and back and still I really care most > > about helping others to heal and transcend pain in their lives. > > > > > > I do care a bit about what people think - particularly in the spiritual > > realms. If I believe myself a spiritual individual, I am acting rather > > un-spiritually with nada in that I refuse to stand there and take her abuse, > > I can't function in my life as a single mother due to the PTSD responses I > > still have from her abusive, vulgar, truly disgusting soul assassination she > > attempts with me. But I have this feeling of failure sometimes when I have > > great relationships with everyone in the world except for abusive people. > > The guys I ran into with NPD - definitely no good relationships there and I > > don't care. Just glad they're gone. The Bi-polar ex and I have a great > > relationship - we get along better now not married than when we were > > married. I truly love him unconditionally - I just couldn't live with him > > and be his mate while he was using. he chose substance - I chose sanity. It > > didn't change my love for him. Its like that with nada to. I love her > > unconditionally but I cannot pretend to be a loving wonderful daughter to a > > woman who is out to destroy me if I won't let her take over and ruin my safe > > sanctuary of home, who's bills I refuse to pay because as a single mom I > > just have enough for us and who I won't drop everything including caring for > > my kids to lavish her with physical affection when I'm just not feeling it, > > who I won't max out the credit cards for to buy her dentures so she can look > > good (I didn't force her to eat oxycodone like candy rotting her teeth out > > of her head - cause her to stop with normal oral hygene), I won't call pawn > > shops all over this land and pay for pawn tickets with interest to retrieve > > her jewelry. These things would make her stop abusing me until the next > > thing comes up she can do splitting with. > > > > > > Really - Am I really wrong in God's eyes for seeking to protect myself? I > > used an analogy earlier - I love all of God's creatures - I really do and I > > love them without condition but I'm not going to take a nap next to a hungry > > tiger or snuggle up to a rattle snake. That would be deadly to me. I have > > absolutely judged my mother but in this way only - I believe her to be > > incredibly ill because no mother, for any reason would ever treat her kids > > the way she treated me, no mother would beg her kids to go deeply into debt > > - we're talking in the thousands and thousands to rescue her from her bad > > decisions, I believe she's wrong for seeking vengeance against her child, I > > believe she is sick, angry, abusive, delusional, unfit, unloving, hurtful > > and more. I judge her unsafe for me. I can come to the conclusion that I > > understand what she says isn't about me and I am really strong but I tried > > to employ this logic and rationalization when she was in my home and she > > destroyed it. My home has always been my sanctuary, the one place in the > > world that we were always safe but when she moved in and stayed for 30 days, > > I wasn't even safe enough to sleep. She'd wake me up at 11 or 12 at night on > > a work night (I have to get up at 4:00 a.m.) and pick a fight with me about > > some delusional thing. I'd go to get a cup of coffee in the morning and I > > was attacked for not beleiving in an hallucination that I could visibly tell > > was unreal. I couldn't use the bathroom without her knocking on the door. I > > couldn't open a cabinet without finding a hateful post-it note. I couldn't > > walk out to my car without finding a note book under my windsheild wiper > > filed with pages of hate, manipulation, insult and guilt. There was no place > > in my home I could be safe from her harm and abuse and yet I see all these > > spiritual people spouting these really beautiful, loving and spiritual > > things that make me feel so bad and so guilty that I chose peace and > > emotional safety in my home for me and I my kids, that I chose to love > > myself instead of putting up with her illness and abuse. > > > > > > If I'm wrong here, I'm chosing not to be right forever because I'll never > > go back and maybe she's right and I will burn in hell miserably for chosing > > to kick her out and refuse to talk to her or listen to minutes and minutes > > filled with hatred and filthy language and vulgar insults and threats to > > " get me. " I just cannot believe that God would send me to hell for > > protecting myself and my kids from my hateful abusive mother. I believe that > > I am not a bad person just because I cannot have a relationship with my > > mother. My mother is obviously mentally ill but I am judged by her insanity. > > Try going out on date with someone - they always want to know how your > > relationship is with your mother. I always just say i love her and change > > the subject for another time after they get to know me a little better so > > I'm not so unfairly judged. > > > > > > How is it that victims of rape or other crimes are supported by the world > > with empathy and protection and all we get is downward glances and judgment > > unfairly? We were victims. I won't be a victim any more. I refuse it and > > with everything in me I will heal this lie she implanted in me of guilt for > > doing what I had to do to emotionally survive. > > > > > > Okay - my vent is over. Thanks for listening. I guess I just had to let > > it out. > > > > > > Jaie > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 There is a bible-based website specifically about dealing with the issue of parents who use spiritual abuse against their minor and adult daughters to control them in unhealthy ways. Here's the link: http://www.luke173ministries.org/templates/System/default.asp?id=39548 -Annie > > thanks for this distinction karla.. i often get it confused too.blessings and healing to all,ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 There is a bible-based website specifically about dealing with the issue of parents who use spiritual abuse against their minor and adult daughters to control them in unhealthy ways. Here's the link: http://www.luke173ministries.org/templates/System/default.asp?id=39548 -Annie > > thanks for this distinction karla.. i often get it confused too.blessings and healing to all,ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Jaie, this is precisely why I joined this site. I am deeply spiritual, and I attend church services two to three times a week. But I believe there is a difference between unselfish and unselfless (maybe I just coined a new term) If you are unselfless (you have given up so much of your own personal self to take care of others there is nothing left of you) I believe Jesus wants us to love ourselves first because if we don't we can not possibly love others. Look at who raised us. I wanted to join the Christian WTO site to ask others just how they dealt with that pressure to sacrifice yourself to your parent in the name of religion. Fada lives with us and I am unselfishly providing him a home and all the physical comforts I can afford. I am guarding my own personal self. There are barriers galore, both physical and emotional, and I can afford to hire help. My family practice doc (who cares for the whole family including Fada and is the grandchild of a BP was furious with us for not putting Fada in a nursing home. He told my husband Fada would make me crazy. But we are managing, there is a part of me that feels if the core etiology of BPD is fear of abandonment then putting Fada in a nursing home is abandoning him. I have learned he will be unhappy and miserable whereever he is, but for now as long as he can walk and does not have to be lifted he can live with us. He is safe here and he gets whatever he wants to eat (and he lives for what he puts in his mouth) whenever he wants it and it is always delicious top quality food and that won't happen at a nursing home. So I comfort myself with the knowledge he is getting the best care possible and I keep my distance and I DON'T BELIEVE FOR ONE MINUTE THAT I AM DOING ANYTHING THAT GOES AGAINST GOD'S TEACHING because I am taking care of my mental health first. I have 3 sons and a husband and all of my little kids at school depending on me. Much love to you Jaie and do not listen to those who do not understand. Kay > > No matter how far you get on your journey of recovery, there is always something to explore and learn. > > I'm a little angry today, seemingly, at the spiritual community I'm involved in. They're really good people but there are some phrases bantered about where I think they are missing the point...but then again, they're touching buttons of mine... > > Basically the phrases boil down to these: > > 1. If I had truly given nada my forgiveness, I would have her in my life and continue demonstrating my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > 2. If I really loved nada without condition, I would have her in my life, ignore her abuse, and continue to demonstrate my love for her physically, emotionally and financially in whatever way she needs. > > 3. If really had any compassion, I would be understanding that the insults and verbal/vulgar abuse she showers me with are only her wounds and I would not be witholding my love for her. > > 4. Your relationships with people, particularly your mother, shows the real person you are on the inside - so, then I am what she says - selfish, cold and uncaring. > > So, the root of my anger is obvious, there is still some guilt I carry at kicking her out of my life, moving and leaving her no forwarding address and changing my home and cell phone numbers so she cannot contact me. > > I don't think I'm delusional (I could be and I'll look at that) but I see myself as I kind, loving and very compassionate soul. I tend towards co-dependency so I'm very careful not to get involved in rescuing people but that pretty much sums me up. I live to help others while I live and learn here in life. I've been through hell and back and still I really care most about helping others to heal and transcend pain in their lives. > > I do care a bit about what people think - particularly in the spiritual realms. If I believe myself a spiritual individual, I am acting rather un-spiritually with nada in that I refuse to stand there and take her abuse, I can't function in my life as a single mother due to the PTSD responses I still have from her abusive, vulgar, truly disgusting soul assassination she attempts with me. But I have this feeling of failure sometimes when I have great relationships with everyone in the world except for abusive people. The guys I ran into with NPD - definitely no good relationships there and I don't care. Just glad they're gone. The Bi-polar ex and I have a great relationship - we get along better now not married than when we were married. I truly love him unconditionally - I just couldn't live with him and be his mate while he was using. he chose substance - I chose sanity. It didn't change my love for him. Its like that with nada to. I love her unconditionally but I cannot pretend to be a loving wonderful daughter to a woman who is out to destroy me if I won't let her take over and ruin my safe sanctuary of home, who's bills I refuse to pay because as a single mom I just have enough for us and who I won't drop everything including caring for my kids to lavish her with physical affection when I'm just not feeling it, who I won't max out the credit cards for to buy her dentures so she can look good (I didn't force her to eat oxycodone like candy rotting her teeth out of her head - cause her to stop with normal oral hygene), I won't call pawn shops all over this land and pay for pawn tickets with interest to retrieve her jewelry. These things would make her stop abusing me until the next thing comes up she can do splitting with. > > Really - Am I really wrong in God's eyes for seeking to protect myself? I used an analogy earlier - I love all of God's creatures - I really do and I love them without condition but I'm not going to take a nap next to a hungry tiger or snuggle up to a rattle snake. That would be deadly to me. I have absolutely judged my mother but in this way only - I believe her to be incredibly ill because no mother, for any reason would ever treat her kids the way she treated me, no mother would beg her kids to go deeply into debt - we're talking in the thousands and thousands to rescue her from her bad decisions, I believe she's wrong for seeking vengeance against her child, I believe she is sick, angry, abusive, delusional, unfit, unloving, hurtful and more. I judge her unsafe for me. I can come to the conclusion that I understand what she says isn't about me and I am really strong but I tried to employ this logic and rationalization when she was in my home and she destroyed it. My home has always been my sanctuary, the one place in the world that we were always safe but when she moved in and stayed for 30 days, I wasn't even safe enough to sleep. She'd wake me up at 11 or 12 at night on a work night (I have to get up at 4:00 a.m.) and pick a fight with me about some delusional thing. I'd go to get a cup of coffee in the morning and I was attacked for not beleiving in an hallucination that I could visibly tell was unreal. I couldn't use the bathroom without her knocking on the door. I couldn't open a cabinet without finding a hateful post-it note. I couldn't walk out to my car without finding a note book under my windsheild wiper filed with pages of hate, manipulation, insult and guilt. There was no place in my home I could be safe from her harm and abuse and yet I see all these spiritual people spouting these really beautiful, loving and spiritual things that make me feel so bad and so guilty that I chose peace and emotional safety in my home for me and I my kids, that I chose to love myself instead of putting up with her illness and abuse. > > If I'm wrong here, I'm chosing not to be right forever because I'll never go back and maybe she's right and I will burn in hell miserably for chosing to kick her out and refuse to talk to her or listen to minutes and minutes filled with hatred and filthy language and vulgar insults and threats to " get me. " I just cannot believe that God would send me to hell for protecting myself and my kids from my hateful abusive mother. I believe that I am not a bad person just because I cannot have a relationship with my mother. My mother is obviously mentally ill but I am judged by her insanity. Try going out on date with someone - they always want to know how your relationship is with your mother. I always just say i love her and change the subject for another time after they get to know me a little better so I'm not so unfairly judged. > > How is it that victims of rape or other crimes are supported by the world with empathy and protection and all we get is downward glances and judgment unfairly? We were victims. I won't be a victim any more. I refuse it and with everything in me I will heal this lie she implanted in me of guilt for doing what I had to do to emotionally survive. > > Okay - my vent is over. Thanks for listening. I guess I just had to let it out. > > Jaie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Well, I am an atheist, and I found this bible-based site very helpful. First, because good information is just good information. Second, because nada is very spiritual and this has given me some validation. I just keep remembering her at Christmas say to me, when I confronted her about not caring that I came so far and spent so much money to visit her: How DARE you talk to me that way! I am your MOTHER! (and then something about respect. Well, I am 30 years old and an adult. And while I don't believe in being disrespectful to anyone, being disrespectful and confronting someone about bad behavior and abusive treatment are two extremely different things. I wish I could have said " Nada, I am an adult. And when you are behaving in an abusive way and screaming and yelling at people, I am going to confront you about it and ask you to stop. And if you believe that is disrespectful in some way, then you are free to believe that. But I see it differently. No one should be allowed to verbally abuse others at will whenever they want. " I swear, there are many things that haunt me about that visit, but certainly the " how DARE you speak to me that way! " is one of the most annoying. ly, I wasn't yelling at her, I didn't raise my voice, I just broke in and interrupted her rage. Apparently interrupting her rage and screaming and yelling and swearing about a 12 year old who was sleeping (but certainly not asleep) in the next room was the most awful disrespect ever. > > > > thanks for this distinction karla.. i often get it confused too.blessings and healing to all,ann > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Well, I am an atheist, and I found this bible-based site very helpful. First, because good information is just good information. Second, because nada is very spiritual and this has given me some validation. I just keep remembering her at Christmas say to me, when I confronted her about not caring that I came so far and spent so much money to visit her: How DARE you talk to me that way! I am your MOTHER! (and then something about respect. Well, I am 30 years old and an adult. And while I don't believe in being disrespectful to anyone, being disrespectful and confronting someone about bad behavior and abusive treatment are two extremely different things. I wish I could have said " Nada, I am an adult. And when you are behaving in an abusive way and screaming and yelling at people, I am going to confront you about it and ask you to stop. And if you believe that is disrespectful in some way, then you are free to believe that. But I see it differently. No one should be allowed to verbally abuse others at will whenever they want. " I swear, there are many things that haunt me about that visit, but certainly the " how DARE you speak to me that way! " is one of the most annoying. ly, I wasn't yelling at her, I didn't raise my voice, I just broke in and interrupted her rage. Apparently interrupting her rage and screaming and yelling and swearing about a 12 year old who was sleeping (but certainly not asleep) in the next room was the most awful disrespect ever. > > > > thanks for this distinction karla.. i often get it confused too.blessings and healing to all,ann > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Well, I am an atheist, and I found this bible-based site very helpful. First, because good information is just good information. Second, because nada is very spiritual and this has given me some validation. I just keep remembering her at Christmas say to me, when I confronted her about not caring that I came so far and spent so much money to visit her: How DARE you talk to me that way! I am your MOTHER! (and then something about respect. Well, I am 30 years old and an adult. And while I don't believe in being disrespectful to anyone, being disrespectful and confronting someone about bad behavior and abusive treatment are two extremely different things. I wish I could have said " Nada, I am an adult. And when you are behaving in an abusive way and screaming and yelling at people, I am going to confront you about it and ask you to stop. And if you believe that is disrespectful in some way, then you are free to believe that. But I see it differently. No one should be allowed to verbally abuse others at will whenever they want. " I swear, there are many things that haunt me about that visit, but certainly the " how DARE you speak to me that way! " is one of the most annoying. ly, I wasn't yelling at her, I didn't raise my voice, I just broke in and interrupted her rage. Apparently interrupting her rage and screaming and yelling and swearing about a 12 year old who was sleeping (but certainly not asleep) in the next room was the most awful disrespect ever. > > > > thanks for this distinction karla.. i often get it confused too.blessings and healing to all,ann > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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