Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of Schaler but didn't know he had written any books (that's being a little generous, I think, but I don't know what else to call it) until I saw it in the bookstore last week and bought it. I'm not normally a literary critic but next to the Hazelden propaganda this is probably the worst book written on addictions I've ever read. One would think in a fairly brief text (under 150 pages) some original idea would be emphasized...or at least brought up. There is nothing original that I could find in this book! Isn't the comparison of addictive " disease " to diabetes getting kind of old? What really seemed bizarre was the paranoid tone, and constant references to " Orwellian double-think " , etc., (the " Project MATCH " cover-up??) as well as his stance on moderation, that the heaviest drinkers are the best " moderators " . So that means that those who drink less have more difficulty with moderation? I suppose maybe that was the intention of this book, to tout moderation again. It's too bad there can't be more open criticism of AA which doesn't have a tone of criticizing abstinence as well. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 > Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of > Schaler but didn't know he had written any books (that's being a little > generous, I think, but I don't know what else to call it) until I saw it in > the bookstore last week and bought it. I'm not normally a literary critic but > next to the Hazelden propaganda this is probably the worst book written on > addictions I've ever read. Hi Nick, When I read that one, it was the ONLY non-AA viewpoint that I'd ever read--so it holds a bit of a fond place in my heart. That said, I agree, it is a terrible book, but at least he had SOME sort of an editor. Have you read this website? There was an interesting book review of this on the 12-step-questioners site that expressed my viewpoint well. Pete? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 > Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of > Schaler but didn't know he had written any books (that's being a little > generous, I think, but I don't know what else to call it) until I saw it in > the bookstore last week and bought it. I'm not normally a literary critic but > next to the Hazelden propaganda this is probably the worst book written on > addictions I've ever read. Hi Nick, When I read that one, it was the ONLY non-AA viewpoint that I'd ever read--so it holds a bit of a fond place in my heart. That said, I agree, it is a terrible book, but at least he had SOME sort of an editor. Have you read this website? There was an interesting book review of this on the 12-step-questioners site that expressed my viewpoint well. Pete? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 > Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of > Schaler but didn't know he had written any books (that's being a little > generous, I think, but I don't know what else to call it) until I saw it in > the bookstore last week and bought it. I'm not normally a literary critic but > next to the Hazelden propaganda this is probably the worst book written on > addictions I've ever read. Hi Nick, When I read that one, it was the ONLY non-AA viewpoint that I'd ever read--so it holds a bit of a fond place in my heart. That said, I agree, it is a terrible book, but at least he had SOME sort of an editor. Have you read this website? There was an interesting book review of this on the 12-step-questioners site that expressed my viewpoint well. Pete? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2001 Report Share Posted May 4, 2001 Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of Schaler but didn't know he had written any books I have read a few of his articles, including one in which he advocated that Audrey Kishline should be given an opportunity to kill herself. That was about all I needed to know of him to decide his views were of limited interest to me. Being anti-AA is not at all sufficient to being possessed of common sense and human decency. --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2001 Report Share Posted May 4, 2001 Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of Schaler but didn't know he had written any books I have read a few of his articles, including one in which he advocated that Audrey Kishline should be given an opportunity to kill herself. That was about all I needed to know of him to decide his views were of limited interest to me. Being anti-AA is not at all sufficient to being possessed of common sense and human decency. --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2001 Report Share Posted May 4, 2001 Just curious...has anyone read this book? I had obviously heard of Schaler but didn't know he had written any books I have read a few of his articles, including one in which he advocated that Audrey Kishline should be given an opportunity to kill herself. That was about all I needed to know of him to decide his views were of limited interest to me. Being anti-AA is not at all sufficient to being possessed of common sense and human decency. --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 Im sure Audrey Kishline felt like killing herself many times , What happened was terrible but I have a degree of sympathy with her . There are people who for whatever reason dont seem to be able to conquer their addictions, at one time I thought I was going to be one of them . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 Im sure Audrey Kishline felt like killing herself many times , What happened was terrible but I have a degree of sympathy with her . There are people who for whatever reason dont seem to be able to conquer their addictions, at one time I thought I was going to be one of them . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 Im sure Audrey Kishline felt like killing herself many times , What happened was terrible but I have a degree of sympathy with her . There are people who for whatever reason dont seem to be able to conquer their addictions, at one time I thought I was going to be one of them . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? For that matter I'd never heard of Schaler either. I searched via Google.com and found his website but didn't have a great deal of time to read the things that were there. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? For that matter I'd never heard of Schaler either. I searched via Google.com and found his website but didn't have a great deal of time to read the things that were there. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? For that matter I'd never heard of Schaler either. I searched via Google.com and found his website but didn't have a great deal of time to read the things that were there. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 Audrey Kishline was wrong to get into her car . When I was at my worst , I got into my car after a whole bottle of gin in 12 hours . I drove very slowly , only to go round the corner to get another bottle , along quite streets . it was getting near to closing time and I was desperate . I got my first and only DUI . I was mortified because I am not normally a person that breaks the law or does dangerous things . That DUI got me sober . I was bonkers , the drink took away my better judgement , leaving me to do things which rationally were completely wrong . I just thank god i didnt kill or injure someone, but that was only luck . I thnk the Kishline thing drew more controversy than I have ever seen on the lists . It was so much worse because she courted so much publicity for Moderation Management, and even the gurus have feet of clay ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 Audrey Kishline was wrong to get into her car . When I was at my worst , I got into my car after a whole bottle of gin in 12 hours . I drove very slowly , only to go round the corner to get another bottle , along quite streets . it was getting near to closing time and I was desperate . I got my first and only DUI . I was mortified because I am not normally a person that breaks the law or does dangerous things . That DUI got me sober . I was bonkers , the drink took away my better judgement , leaving me to do things which rationally were completely wrong . I just thank god i didnt kill or injure someone, but that was only luck . I thnk the Kishline thing drew more controversy than I have ever seen on the lists . It was so much worse because she courted so much publicity for Moderation Management, and even the gurus have feet of clay ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 Audrey Kishline was wrong to get into her car . When I was at my worst , I got into my car after a whole bottle of gin in 12 hours . I drove very slowly , only to go round the corner to get another bottle , along quite streets . it was getting near to closing time and I was desperate . I got my first and only DUI . I was mortified because I am not normally a person that breaks the law or does dangerous things . That DUI got me sober . I was bonkers , the drink took away my better judgement , leaving me to do things which rationally were completely wrong . I just thank god i didnt kill or injure someone, but that was only luck . I thnk the Kishline thing drew more controversy than I have ever seen on the lists . It was so much worse because she courted so much publicity for Moderation Management, and even the gurus have feet of clay ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 At 06:36 AM 5/5/01 -0400, wrote: >ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? Let's see if I can synopsize: She started Moderation Management about five (six) years ago, wrote the book by that name describing the movement, been on radio and TV interviews promoting it as an alternative for 'problem drinkers', while saying that 'true alcoholics' need to go to AA. [My opinion/observation: most AA folk regard 'problem drinkers' as people who haven't been to enough AA meetings yet - they're just 'true alcoholics' in denial.] This sounds ordinary, but the story gets dramatic and tragic: Around the end of 2000 Audrey announce she was going to go abstinent, and attend (if I remember) both Women For Sobriety and AA meetings. A few months later (March 2001, as I recall), she was driving drunk and had an accident which caused the death of someone in another vehicle. I also recall this story (that the founder of MM killed someone in a drunk driving accident) didn't make the news, and this list, until several months later. And when it did, most everyone (both in this list and in general) had an opinion on it. I know there was something about it on <http://www.peele.net>, probably with links to news stories. >For >that matter I'd never heard of Schaler either. I searched via >Google.com and found his website but didn't have a great deal of time to >read the things that were there. Strangely enough, I have both Schaler's and Kishline's books, but haven't read more than a cursory scanning of either. But they're part of my 'personal library' on 'the recovery movement'. > >Cheers, > >nz > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 At 06:36 AM 5/5/01 -0400, wrote: >ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? Let's see if I can synopsize: She started Moderation Management about five (six) years ago, wrote the book by that name describing the movement, been on radio and TV interviews promoting it as an alternative for 'problem drinkers', while saying that 'true alcoholics' need to go to AA. [My opinion/observation: most AA folk regard 'problem drinkers' as people who haven't been to enough AA meetings yet - they're just 'true alcoholics' in denial.] This sounds ordinary, but the story gets dramatic and tragic: Around the end of 2000 Audrey announce she was going to go abstinent, and attend (if I remember) both Women For Sobriety and AA meetings. A few months later (March 2001, as I recall), she was driving drunk and had an accident which caused the death of someone in another vehicle. I also recall this story (that the founder of MM killed someone in a drunk driving accident) didn't make the news, and this list, until several months later. And when it did, most everyone (both in this list and in general) had an opinion on it. I know there was something about it on <http://www.peele.net>, probably with links to news stories. >For >that matter I'd never heard of Schaler either. I searched via >Google.com and found his website but didn't have a great deal of time to >read the things that were there. Strangely enough, I have both Schaler's and Kishline's books, but haven't read more than a cursory scanning of either. But they're part of my 'personal library' on 'the recovery movement'. > >Cheers, > >nz > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 >From: CATSJP1000@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Addoction Is a Choice" >Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 06:06:25 EDT > >Im sure Audrey Kishline felt like killing herself many times , What happened >was terrible but I have a degree of sympathy with her . >There are people who for whatever reason dont seem to be able to conquer >their addictions, at one time I thought I was going to be one of them . > - I believe a lot of people miss the boat on Kishline's "addiction." Such people will point her failure to "moderate" as proof it doesn't work, as proof of her "powerlessness." But it seems to me that alcohol is not her problem at all. Driving while intoxicated is her real problem. She failed to curtail a bad, socially unacceptable behavior, i.e. driving under the influence of alcohol. One doesn't even consider "moderating drunk driving." You just don't drive. Audrey certainly sobered up for long enough periods of time to understand this simple fact. In countries around the world where the penalties for DUI or DWI causing injury to others are extremely severe (Bolivia and Bulgaria are two, as I recall), there are very few prosecutions. They know the price is too high, even if they don't have the moral or ethical awareness that it is simply wrong to endanger others. They still get drunk, but they don't drive. So, Kishline's failure is not "moderating" her consumption of alcohol, but her failure to stay out of the driver's seat when impaired. Is she "addicted" to drunk driving? Sees a car and develops this strange "phenomenon of craveing," some "physical compulsion and mental obsession?" Or, maybe has a reverse "allergy" or "high tolerance" for engaging in acts wanton and "reckless abandon?" Cheers! Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 >From: CATSJP1000@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Addoction Is a Choice" >Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 06:06:25 EDT > >Im sure Audrey Kishline felt like killing herself many times , What happened >was terrible but I have a degree of sympathy with her . >There are people who for whatever reason dont seem to be able to conquer >their addictions, at one time I thought I was going to be one of them . > - I believe a lot of people miss the boat on Kishline's "addiction." Such people will point her failure to "moderate" as proof it doesn't work, as proof of her "powerlessness." But it seems to me that alcohol is not her problem at all. Driving while intoxicated is her real problem. She failed to curtail a bad, socially unacceptable behavior, i.e. driving under the influence of alcohol. One doesn't even consider "moderating drunk driving." You just don't drive. Audrey certainly sobered up for long enough periods of time to understand this simple fact. In countries around the world where the penalties for DUI or DWI causing injury to others are extremely severe (Bolivia and Bulgaria are two, as I recall), there are very few prosecutions. They know the price is too high, even if they don't have the moral or ethical awareness that it is simply wrong to endanger others. They still get drunk, but they don't drive. So, Kishline's failure is not "moderating" her consumption of alcohol, but her failure to stay out of the driver's seat when impaired. Is she "addicted" to drunk driving? Sees a car and develops this strange "phenomenon of craveing," some "physical compulsion and mental obsession?" Or, maybe has a reverse "allergy" or "high tolerance" for engaging in acts wanton and "reckless abandon?" Cheers! Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 >From: CATSJP1000@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Addoction Is a Choice" >Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 06:06:25 EDT > >Im sure Audrey Kishline felt like killing herself many times , What happened >was terrible but I have a degree of sympathy with her . >There are people who for whatever reason dont seem to be able to conquer >their addictions, at one time I thought I was going to be one of them . > - I believe a lot of people miss the boat on Kishline's "addiction." Such people will point her failure to "moderate" as proof it doesn't work, as proof of her "powerlessness." But it seems to me that alcohol is not her problem at all. Driving while intoxicated is her real problem. She failed to curtail a bad, socially unacceptable behavior, i.e. driving under the influence of alcohol. One doesn't even consider "moderating drunk driving." You just don't drive. Audrey certainly sobered up for long enough periods of time to understand this simple fact. In countries around the world where the penalties for DUI or DWI causing injury to others are extremely severe (Bolivia and Bulgaria are two, as I recall), there are very few prosecutions. They know the price is too high, even if they don't have the moral or ethical awareness that it is simply wrong to endanger others. They still get drunk, but they don't drive. So, Kishline's failure is not "moderating" her consumption of alcohol, but her failure to stay out of the driver's seat when impaired. Is she "addicted" to drunk driving? Sees a car and develops this strange "phenomenon of craveing," some "physical compulsion and mental obsession?" Or, maybe has a reverse "allergy" or "high tolerance" for engaging in acts wanton and "reckless abandon?" Cheers! Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 > >ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? > > Let's see if I can synopsize: > She started Moderation Management about five (six) years ago, wrote > the book by that name describing the movement, been on radio and TV > interviews promoting it as an alternative for 'problem drinkers', while > saying that 'true alcoholics' need to go to AA. > [My opinion/observation: most AA folk regard 'problem drinkers' as > people who haven't been to enough AA meetings yet - they're just 'true > alcoholics' in denial.] > This sounds ordinary, but the story gets dramatic and tragic: > Around the end of 2000 Audrey announce she was going to go abstinent, > and attend (if I remember) both Women For Sobriety and AA meetings. A > few months later (March 2001, as I recall), she was driving drunk and > had an accident which caused the death of someone in another vehicle. ==================== It was 2 people, a father and his 12 year old daughter. She missed other people before ramming them. She also pretty much blamed the group she started, Moderation Management, and said that it was just an excuse for problem drinkers to avoid dealing with their alcoholism. This was despite the fact that she had resigned from MM several months prior to the accident and was an AA member at the time of the accident. I think there are links to the news stories on Peele's site. Here is one to the Seattle Times that gives 5 stories they did on her: http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/sea rch?source=search & skip=0 & maxReturn=10 & section=* & period=archive & section ID= & query=Kishline & searchType=date or use http://seattletimes.com and click on archive and use the keyword " Kishline " . There is some debate in my mind about how " out of control " a person under the influence of alcohol gets. Does the person really do things that they don't have in them to do? Take promiscuity - even if a woman goes with someone under the influence - she would never do it " sober " ...it isn't just anyone is it? It's the one she picks out. Right there in the bar? Not usually! The people are able to wait, go to another place, etc. There is plenty of judgment shown in many drunken situations. How many other people are able to say no to driving drunk, even when they are very *ucked up? Most, certainly not all. It has been awhile since I read those articles about Kishine. It was right at the time I was trying to decide for myself if I could moderate. It was a very discouraging story. She also ran some other drivers off the road before the accident. I wonder what the followup on her is now. I had heard that she was sentenced to " treatment in Oregon " and was going to write another book that refutes moderation as an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 > >ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? > > Let's see if I can synopsize: > She started Moderation Management about five (six) years ago, wrote > the book by that name describing the movement, been on radio and TV > interviews promoting it as an alternative for 'problem drinkers', while > saying that 'true alcoholics' need to go to AA. > [My opinion/observation: most AA folk regard 'problem drinkers' as > people who haven't been to enough AA meetings yet - they're just 'true > alcoholics' in denial.] > This sounds ordinary, but the story gets dramatic and tragic: > Around the end of 2000 Audrey announce she was going to go abstinent, > and attend (if I remember) both Women For Sobriety and AA meetings. A > few months later (March 2001, as I recall), she was driving drunk and > had an accident which caused the death of someone in another vehicle. ==================== It was 2 people, a father and his 12 year old daughter. She missed other people before ramming them. She also pretty much blamed the group she started, Moderation Management, and said that it was just an excuse for problem drinkers to avoid dealing with their alcoholism. This was despite the fact that she had resigned from MM several months prior to the accident and was an AA member at the time of the accident. I think there are links to the news stories on Peele's site. Here is one to the Seattle Times that gives 5 stories they did on her: http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/sea rch?source=search & skip=0 & maxReturn=10 & section=* & period=archive & section ID= & query=Kishline & searchType=date or use http://seattletimes.com and click on archive and use the keyword " Kishline " . There is some debate in my mind about how " out of control " a person under the influence of alcohol gets. Does the person really do things that they don't have in them to do? Take promiscuity - even if a woman goes with someone under the influence - she would never do it " sober " ...it isn't just anyone is it? It's the one she picks out. Right there in the bar? Not usually! The people are able to wait, go to another place, etc. There is plenty of judgment shown in many drunken situations. How many other people are able to say no to driving drunk, even when they are very *ucked up? Most, certainly not all. It has been awhile since I read those articles about Kishine. It was right at the time I was trying to decide for myself if I could moderate. It was a very discouraging story. She also ran some other drivers off the road before the accident. I wonder what the followup on her is now. I had heard that she was sentenced to " treatment in Oregon " and was going to write another book that refutes moderation as an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 > >ny-come-lately here. Never heard of Audrey Kishline. Who is she? > > Let's see if I can synopsize: > She started Moderation Management about five (six) years ago, wrote > the book by that name describing the movement, been on radio and TV > interviews promoting it as an alternative for 'problem drinkers', while > saying that 'true alcoholics' need to go to AA. > [My opinion/observation: most AA folk regard 'problem drinkers' as > people who haven't been to enough AA meetings yet - they're just 'true > alcoholics' in denial.] > This sounds ordinary, but the story gets dramatic and tragic: > Around the end of 2000 Audrey announce she was going to go abstinent, > and attend (if I remember) both Women For Sobriety and AA meetings. A > few months later (March 2001, as I recall), she was driving drunk and > had an accident which caused the death of someone in another vehicle. ==================== It was 2 people, a father and his 12 year old daughter. She missed other people before ramming them. She also pretty much blamed the group she started, Moderation Management, and said that it was just an excuse for problem drinkers to avoid dealing with their alcoholism. This was despite the fact that she had resigned from MM several months prior to the accident and was an AA member at the time of the accident. I think there are links to the news stories on Peele's site. Here is one to the Seattle Times that gives 5 stories they did on her: http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/sea rch?source=search & skip=0 & maxReturn=10 & section=* & period=archive & section ID= & query=Kishline & searchType=date or use http://seattletimes.com and click on archive and use the keyword " Kishline " . There is some debate in my mind about how " out of control " a person under the influence of alcohol gets. Does the person really do things that they don't have in them to do? Take promiscuity - even if a woman goes with someone under the influence - she would never do it " sober " ...it isn't just anyone is it? It's the one she picks out. Right there in the bar? Not usually! The people are able to wait, go to another place, etc. There is plenty of judgment shown in many drunken situations. How many other people are able to say no to driving drunk, even when they are very *ucked up? Most, certainly not all. It has been awhile since I read those articles about Kishine. It was right at the time I was trying to decide for myself if I could moderate. It was a very discouraging story. She also ran some other drivers off the road before the accident. I wonder what the followup on her is now. I had heard that she was sentenced to " treatment in Oregon " and was going to write another book that refutes moderation as an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2001 Report Share Posted May 5, 2001 Kishline went to treatment, voluntarily I believe, after her arrest, and subsequently pleaded guilty. She is serving four years, which is the maximum she can apparently receive under Washington law for a first offense and a guilty plea. It would be very hard to be Audrey Kishline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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