Re:Disturbing conversation

[Guest guest]

I've thought Rubin was sketchy for years, said so in this support group, and still think so.

There are no miracle cures. We all find this out the hard way, some of us sooner than others. But still we keep hoping! Rubin preys upon the vulnerability of those who are ill and desperate. He promises them a health miracle and throws the Bible in for good measure.

If you want to know if something works, read the medical studies. I'm all for alternatives to allopathic medicine but not without solid scientific proof. Why waste precious time and money? Research, research, research, but make sure you read legitimate scientific studies published in peer-reviewed journals. PubMed is a great source. The Wellness Letter by the University of California at Berkeley ( http://www.berkeleywellness.com/ ) is a great source as well-- they distill the current research and tell you what alternative modalities are proven to work, and which ones are bogus. I used to like Dr. Weill, but even though he is still meticulous about research he now he sells so much stuff that I am annoyed. Same goes for Mercola. I still get Weil's Self Healing newsletter ( http://www.drweilselfhealing.com/standard_pgs.asp?iPageID=5) though. All the articles are based on research and he doesn't do any self-promotion in it. To me, once someone starts a corporation to sell a health product, it's time to walk, (or run!) the other way. Who are corporations beholden to? The stockholders, not the consumers.

One thing you can do: keep eating a rainbow-colored diet, getting exercise, keeping a positive attitude-- all proven scientifically to improve health. You don't need to buy any special expensive bottles of anything.

Love, Bindi

[Guest guest]

Bindi,

Is it possible that the medical studies you are counting on are

bought and sold as well, with corporate money?

You can get a medical study to say what you want it to say, you know.

Breast implants are the perfect example of that.

Is medical science for sale?

Yes, it is, unfortunately.

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_scienceforsale.html

I agree with you that there are no miracle cures!

However, I find it much more beneficial not to denigrate the efforts

of those who have a story to tell, and offer hope to others, like Dr.

Jordan Rubin.

And if we ask ourselves the question who exactly is preying upon the

vulnerable, wouldn't we be quicker to say that the breast implant

manufacturer's are, than someone who is actually doing something to

try to help other regain health?

What benefit is there in destroying the work of those who may in fact

be sincere in their efforts, are telling the truth, have dedicated

their lives, their time, their money, and their efforts to helping

others when NO ONE else will?

Could it be that by slandering others, we destroy the hope of those

in need of healing? What if in fact Dr Rubin's story did have the

potential to help somone recover from Crohn's disease that would

otherwise die, but a misplaced rumor stopped them from reaching for

that healing?

Please, let's be wise. I don't believe everything I hear or read, but

I definitely will NOT place myself in the position of judging wrongly

and making a mistake about the intentions of others who may in fact

be on God's mission. Why should I put myself in the position of

judge?? It is not mine to be in! If I judge wrongly, I heap

judgement upon myself!

I urge you all to be careful in this matter....and not be guilty of

spreading rumors.

Patty

>

> I've thought Rubin was sketchy for years, said so in this support

group, and still think so.

>

> There are no miracle cures. We all find this out the hard way, some

of us sooner than others. But still we keep hoping! Rubin preys upon

the vulnerability of those who are ill and desperate. He promises

them a health miracle and throws the Bible in for good measure.

>

> If you want to know if something works, read the medical studies.

I'm all for alternatives to allopathic medicine but not without solid

scientific proof. Why waste precious time and money? Research,

research, research, but make sure you read legitimate scientific

studies published in peer-reviewed journals. PubMed is a great

source. The Wellness Letter by the University of California at

Berkeley ( http://www.berkeleywellness.com/ ) is a great source as

well-- they distill the current research and tell you what

alternative modalities are proven to work, and which ones are bogus.

I used to like Dr. Weill, but even though he is still

meticulous about research he now he sells so much stuff that I am

annoyed. Same goes for Mercola. I still get Weil's Self Healing

newsletter ( http://www.drweilselfhealing.com/standard_pgs.asp?

iPageID=5) though. All the articles are based on research and he

doesn't do any self-promotion in it. To me, once someone starts a

corporation to sell a health product, it's time to walk, (or run!)

the other way. Who are corporations beholden to? The stockholders,

not the consumers.

>

> One thing you can do: keep eating a rainbow-colored diet, getting

exercise, keeping a positive attitude-- all proven scientifically to

improve health. You don't need to buy any special expensive bottles

of anything.

>

> Love, Bindi

>

[Guest guest]

Patty,

I don't understand the connection you made between slamming the breast implant manufacturers (some of the world's lowest scum) and questioning the legitimacy of Jordan Rubin. These are two seperate issues.

The article you linked focused on drug studies financed by drug manufacturers, and I totally agree with the slimyness of this connection, and the fact that our government and corporations are bedfellows. I agree with you that one has to be diligent when looking at research studies-- they should be large, peer-reviewed, double-blind with controls, and replicated. It isn't easy, but there are sources available that analyze the legitimate studies and make them understandable for the layperson.

Anyone who switches to a whole-foods diet will improve their health-- there's plenty of solid research to support this. But Rubin goes way beyond that with a whole lot of hype and unproven health claims (which he was forced to stop making) and says that God is on his side.

I'm just wondering, why was Garden of Life's "research" done and paid for by the company itself? Nowhere on Rubin's website are there any references to any legitimate research studies. The only "press" the site mentions is from sources like Fox News (give me a break), Palm Beach Illustrated, Vitamin Retailer, etc.

If he is so legit, why are all of his "degrees" from internet "schools" that were all forced to close because they were bogus? I could go online today and pay a fee to similiar fly-by-night sites and get an ND, PhD and CNC, and put them on the end of my name, just like Rubin did.

Don't these facts matter to people?

I certainly don't want to discredit anyone who references legitimate research and has legitimate credentials. But Rubin has neither, and because of this I wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole. Why is it considered "judging" someone to expect that he back up his claims with solid research and credentials? I worry about all the sick people who rely on wishful thinking and are preyed upon by quacks. Believe me, I am as hungry for a magic bullet as the next person. As soon as there is significant evidence that far infrared saunas or ionic footbaths really work, I will be the first in line to buy one.

I believe in a Divine Creator. I believe that the earth offers everything that we need to live as healthy a life as possible. I am constantly amazed when research shows that something people have been doing for centuries is really good for you, like fish, wine, green tea, Mediterranean and Japanese diets, exercise, contemplation. But things happen. Despite their best efforts, some people get sick and some die. There isn't always an answer. Life is a mystery. We have to do our best, hope for the best, try and find meaning and joy where we can.

If Jordan Rubin was on "God's mission" as you say, I don't think God would be happy with the fact that he has been repeatedly dishonest. Maybe God needs to take him aside and give him a good talking to.

Bindi

[Guest guest]

Bindi,

The issue for me is how to define legitimacy.

For some people there is only one way to define legitimacy, and that

is to use standards set up by man, using pieces of paper to elevate

the opinions of certain persons above others (i.e., certificates,

diplomas, etc.), or organizations to elevate credibility.

Is that always foolproof? Is that always certain?

I can think of alot of organizations and people who have set

themselves up as experts and professionals who are neither.

In my opinion, a study does not ALWAYS have legitimacy just because

it has been done following a certain protocol. Corporate money can

determine what a study should say.

Similarly, in my opinion, the presence or absence of a degree from an

institution does not establish legitimacy. It's nice to think that

it does, but there are many people who are incredibly knowledgeable

on a subject because of their experiences, but who do not possess

degrees from any credible university. At the same time there are

also incredibly arrogant and ignorant people who set themselves up as

experts because they have a degree from XYZ University, but the crap

that spews from their mouths is not only pathetic, but just plain

wrong.

Am I bothered by the thought that Dr. Rubin is a naturopath with a

degree from some " bogus " university? Let me ask you....Did he learn

something through his horrendous experiences that he could share with

others? Dare I suggest that his illness was a better lesson for him

than any classroom experience? Who do you think would be a better

teacher----someone who studied a disease from a book, or someone who

studied it because they lived through it and survived?

Should Rubin be discredited because of a piece of paper, or lack

thereof, when thousands upon thousands can be helped and healed

though his efforts to help guide toward better digestive health

because of what HE LEARNED through HIS EXPERIENCE? Is he REALLY

being " dishonest " Bindi?

Let's be careful of what we define as legitimate.

I agree with you totally when you say life is a mystery. I believe

in God and I believe that we can't always know all the answers. There

are just some things that we won't know until we get to heaven. I

can't wait to get there to ASK!!!

As for God's dealing with Jordan Rubin, I have no doubt in my mind

that Jordan is living out his faith with His God--regardless of what

man thinks of him. He is not ashamed of his Savior Jesus Christ,

and publicly shares him....and neither will Jesus be ashamed of him.

Those who love God don't rely on what man thinks. They just do what

God has put them on this earth to do.

Patty

" If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and

sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he

comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels. " Mark 8:38

>

> Patty,

> I don't understand the connection you made between slamming the

breast implant manufacturers (some of the world's lowest scum) and

questioning the legitimacy of Jordan Rubin. These are two seperate

issues.

>

> The article you linked focused on drug studies financed by drug

manufacturers, and I totally agree with the slimyness of this

connection, and the fact that our government and corporations are

bedfellows. I agree with you that one has to be diligent when looking

at research studies-- they should be large, peer-reviewed, double-

blind with controls, and replicated. It isn't easy, but there are

sources available that analyze the legitimate studies and make them

understandable for the layperson.

>

> Anyone who switches to a whole-foods diet will improve their health-

- there's plenty of solid research to support this. But Rubin goes

way beyond that with a whole lot of hype and unproven health claims

(which he was forced to stop making) and says that God is on his

side.

>

> I'm just wondering, why was Garden of Life's " research " done and

paid for by the company itself? Nowhere on Rubin's website are there

any references to any legitimate research studies. The only " press "

the site mentions is from sources like Fox News (give me a break),

Palm Beach Illustrated, Vitamin Retailer, etc.

>

> If he is so legit, why are all of his " degrees " from

internet " schools " that were all forced to close because they were

bogus? I could go online today and pay a fee to similiar fly-by-night

sites and get an ND, PhD and CNC, and put them on the end of my name,

just like Rubin did.

>

> Don't these facts matter to people?

>

> I certainly don't want to discredit anyone who references

legitimate research and has legitimate credentials. But Rubin has

neither, and because of this I wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot

pole. Why is it considered " judging " someone to expect that he back

up his claims with solid research and credentials? I worry about all

the sick people who rely on wishful thinking and are preyed upon by

quacks. Believe me, I am as hungry for a magic bullet as the next

person. As soon as there is significant evidence that far infrared

saunas or ionic footbaths really work, I will be the first in line to

buy one.

>

> I believe in a Divine Creator. I believe that the earth offers

everything that we need to live as healthy a life as possible. I am

constantly amazed when research shows that something people have been

doing for centuries is really good for you, like fish, wine, green

tea, Mediterranean and Japanese diets, exercise, contemplation. But

things happen. Despite their best efforts, some people get sick and

some die. There isn't always an answer. Life is a mystery. We have to

do our best, hope for the best, try and find meaning and joy where we

can.

>

> If Jordan Rubin was on " God's mission " as you say, I don't think

God would be happy with the fact that he has been repeatedly

dishonest. Maybe God needs to take him aside and give him a good

talking to.

>

> Bindi

>

[Guest guest]

Patty,

I agree there is no foolproof method for establishing the legitimacy of anything-- including scientific research, academic credentials, a person's character-- and the man-made standards we've come up with are often problematic. But imagine life on earth without any such standards at all! They are what we have-- we have to work with them, monitor them, improve them. You reference scientific studies all the time. Obviously you believe they have some value. Why so down on research with regards to Rubin's obvious lack of any legitimate studies to back his claims? Is his word really good enough for you?

Anyone can claim anything, and a lot of quacks and con-men do. Just because Rubin claims he cured himself doesn't make it true. Why should we believe him when his degrees are bogus? Doesn't that send up a warning flare? If he is so sincere, why did he pay a few bucks to get three 100% bull**** "degrees"? It's the same as lying. It is lying. He is misleading people into thinking that he has had a substantive education-- one that would have taken years of hard work, dedication (and money) to complete-- when he has not. Interestingly, he no longer attaches PhD, ND and CNC to his name, nor does he call himself Dr. Rubin anymore, like he used to. Hmm, wonder why?

That Rubin claims to love God doesn't mean two beans to me. That's his business. There are truckloads of people who claim to love God and do all kinds of dishonest and terrible things. I can come up with a nice fat list of hypocrites off the top of my head. Rubin was smart to exploit the Bible to justify his whole business venture-- that way he's sure to get plenty of Christians (at least the ones who don't believe in critical thinking) to jump on his shaky bandwagon. One can use the Bible to justify all kinds of things, some of them pretty horrific. A religious document will never be a deciding factor for me with regards to making decisions about my health, or anything else, for that matter.

The saddest thing about all this is that there are some practical, healthful suggestions in Rubin's books, like eating a whole-foods diet, getting moderate exercise, sunlight, etc. That he had to go and fluff it up with all the sensational health claims, bogus degrees, religiousity and sketchy health products just makes it all fall down like a house of cards.

Bindi

[Guest guest]

You are right Bindi.

You are entitled to your opinion and I can't change it no matter what

I say, so for you, everything you say is right!

Patty

>

> Patty,

> I agree there is no foolproof method for establishing the

legitimacy of anything-- including scientific research, academic

credentials, a person's character-- and the man-made standards we've

come up with are often problematic. But imagine life on earth without

any such standards at all! They are what we have-- we have to work

with them, monitor them, improve them. You reference scientific

studies all the time. Obviously you believe they have some value. Why

so down on research with regards to Rubin's obvious lack of any

legitimate studies to back his claims? Is his word really good enough

for you?

>

> Anyone can claim anything, and a lot of quacks and con-men do. Just

because Rubin claims he cured himself doesn't make it true. Why

should we believe him when his degrees are bogus? Doesn't that send

up a warning flare? If he is so sincere, why did he pay a few bucks

to get three 100% bull**** " degrees " ? It's the same as lying. It is

lying. He is misleading people into thinking that he has had a

substantive education-- one that would have taken years of hard work,

dedication (and money) to complete-- when he has not. Interestingly,

he no longer attaches PhD, ND and CNC to his name, nor does he call

himself Dr. Rubin anymore, like he used to. Hmm, wonder why?

>

> That Rubin claims to love God doesn't mean two beans to me. That's

his business. There are truckloads of people who claim to love God

and do all kinds of dishonest and terrible things. I can come up with

a nice fat list of hypocrites off the top of my head. Rubin was smart

to exploit the Bible to justify his whole business venture-- that way

he's sure to get plenty of Christians (at least the ones who don't

believe in critical thinking) to jump on his shaky bandwagon. One can

use the Bible to justify all kinds of things, some of them pretty

horrific. A religious document will never be a deciding factor for me

with regards to making decisions about my health, or anything else,

for that matter.

>

> The saddest thing about all this is that there are some practical,

healthful suggestions in Rubin's books, like eating a whole-foods

diet, getting moderate exercise, sunlight, etc. That he had to go and

fluff it up with all the sensational health claims, bogus degrees,

religiousity and sketchy health products just makes it all fall down

like a house of cards.

>

> Bindi

>

[Guest guest]

Patty,

I don't claim that everything I say is right. Right and wrong are so

often subjective.

I was raised in a family of intellectuals who discussed all and

sundry every night at dinner--politics, religion, you name it. We

were taught to think things through critically and discuss them

intelligently and respectfully, even when someone else's views are at

odds with our own, a tradition I've carried on with my own children.

Though my intentions are good, I am not always successful at

expressing myself without a fair amount of passion, and if I was

disrepectful in any way, I apologize.

I think highly of you and all that you do. Disagreeing on this issue

does not change that.

Bindi

> >

> > Patty,

> > I agree there is no foolproof method for establishing the

> legitimacy of anything-- including scientific research, academic

> credentials, a person's character-- and the man-made standards

we've

> come up with are often problematic. But imagine life on earth

without

> any such standards at all! They are what we have-- we have to work

> with them, monitor them, improve them. You reference scientific

> studies all the time. Obviously you believe they have some value.

Why

> so down on research with regards to Rubin's obvious lack of any

> legitimate studies to back his claims? Is his word really good

enough

> for you?

> >

> > Anyone can claim anything, and a lot of quacks and con-men do.

Just

> because Rubin claims he cured himself doesn't make it true. Why

> should we believe him when his degrees are bogus? Doesn't that send

> up a warning flare? If he is so sincere, why did he pay a few bucks

> to get three 100% bull**** " degrees " ? It's the same as lying. It is

> lying. He is misleading people into thinking that he has had a

> substantive education-- one that would have taken years of hard

work,

> dedication (and money) to complete-- when he has not.

Interestingly,

> he no longer attaches PhD, ND and CNC to his name, nor does he call

> himself Dr. Rubin anymore, like he used to. Hmm, wonder why?

> >

> > That Rubin claims to love God doesn't mean two beans to me.

That's

> his business. There are truckloads of people who claim to love God

> and do all kinds of dishonest and terrible things. I can come up

with

> a nice fat list of hypocrites off the top of my head. Rubin was

smart

> to exploit the Bible to justify his whole business venture-- that

way

> he's sure to get plenty of Christians (at least the ones who don't

> believe in critical thinking) to jump on his shaky bandwagon. One

can

> use the Bible to justify all kinds of things, some of them pretty

> horrific. A religious document will never be a deciding factor for

me

> with regards to making decisions about my health, or anything else,

> for that matter.

> >

> > The saddest thing about all this is that there are some

practical,

> healthful suggestions in Rubin's books, like eating a whole-foods

> diet, getting moderate exercise, sunlight, etc. That he had to go

and

> fluff it up with all the sensational health claims, bogus degrees,

> religiousity and sketchy health products just makes it all fall

down

> like a house of cards.

> >

> > Bindi

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bindi,

That's an awesome tradition, and I applaud it heartily!

I, too, am a very passionate person. In my past I was also quite

argumentative....I was a straight " A " high school and college

student. (I cried if I got a B!) My desire to be right has gotten me

in trouble more times than one, and I finally realized that I could

be right, but still lose...there had to be a better way.

I think highly of you too, Bindi, and I think your contributions are

very valuable.

I love our group. We share and share and share some more. I think

this group has done a great job of blazing a trail for women to

follow....and the core is those things you've highlighted: eating a

whole-foods diet, getting moderate exercise, sunlight. Enemas and

fasting for detoxing helped me as well....

I love the idea that we can be healed using modalities that have been

around for centuries; ancient wisdom that has been proven through the

test of time. I'm so thankful, so very thankful that it is possible.

Are you feeling healed Bindi? Any more symptoms?

Patty

> > >

> > > Patty,

> > > I agree there is no foolproof method for establishing the

> > legitimacy of anything-- including scientific research, academic

> > credentials, a person's character-- and the man-made standards

> we've

> > come up with are often problematic. But imagine life on earth

> without

> > any such standards at all! They are what we have-- we have to

work

> > with them, monitor them, improve them. You reference scientific

> > studies all the time. Obviously you believe they have some value.

> Why

> > so down on research with regards to Rubin's obvious lack of any

> > legitimate studies to back his claims? Is his word really good

> enough

> > for you?

> > >

> > > Anyone can claim anything, and a lot of quacks and con-men do.

> Just

> > because Rubin claims he cured himself doesn't make it true. Why

> > should we believe him when his degrees are bogus? Doesn't that

send

> > up a warning flare? If he is so sincere, why did he pay a few

bucks

> > to get three 100% bull**** " degrees " ? It's the same as lying. It

is

> > lying. He is misleading people into thinking that he has had a

> > substantive education-- one that would have taken years of hard

> work,

> > dedication (and money) to complete-- when he has not.

> Interestingly,

> > he no longer attaches PhD, ND and CNC to his name, nor does he

call

> > himself Dr. Rubin anymore, like he used to. Hmm, wonder why?

> > >

> > > That Rubin claims to love God doesn't mean two beans to me.

> That's

> > his business. There are truckloads of people who claim to love

God

> > and do all kinds of dishonest and terrible things. I can come up

> with

> > a nice fat list of hypocrites off the top of my head. Rubin was

> smart

> > to exploit the Bible to justify his whole business venture-- that

> way

> > he's sure to get plenty of Christians (at least the ones who

don't

> > believe in critical thinking) to jump on his shaky bandwagon. One

> can

> > use the Bible to justify all kinds of things, some of them pretty

> > horrific. A religious document will never be a deciding factor

for

> me

> > with regards to making decisions about my health, or anything

else,

> > for that matter.

> > >

> > > The saddest thing about all this is that there are some

> practical,

> > healthful suggestions in Rubin's books, like eating a whole-foods

> > diet, getting moderate exercise, sunlight, etc. That he had to go

> and

> > fluff it up with all the sensational health claims, bogus

degrees,

> > religiousity and sketchy health products just makes it all fall

> down

> > like a house of cards.

> > >

> > > Bindi

> > >

> >

>