Introduction

[Guest guest]

Dear Christa,

I also had similar pain in the GB area. You wonder about not passing

stones, but the pain easing/subsiding. I am not sure of an answer,

but my theory is that a weakened liver can create havoc with the

gallbladder. (Check out Dr Cabot's site for a bit of a liver guide.)

Don't forget that not all stones show up in the ultrasound - your

test could be a " false negative " . How were the condition of the

walls of the gallbladder- normal thickness?

The cleansing and diet alteration will help the function of your

liver to improve; which will in turn result in better gallbladder

function. This will ease the pain - I surmise.

I have thought to feel stones move, but don't know if it isn't my

vivid imagination:)

A flush 2 nights in a row?? That sounds like a lot of flushing in

one go. You could be risking too low electrolytes or putting a

strain on your organs - depending on your method.

You neglected to mention if you've had any hormone levels checked in

all of your testing. Some of your symptoms

(hairloss/sleeplessness/hotflashes are all indicators of hormone

imbalances. Thyroid could be sluggush.

Best wishes for your health,

Suzanne

>

> Hello Stoners,

> For so few stones to have passed in these flushes, and all of them

being the `soft' kind, why was I experiencing such significant

chronic pain which started around my GB>

> Has anyone else had to flush for 2 nights in order to get results?

Does anyone have an idea as to why I needed to do this " extra purge "

to get the stones to pass?

>

> Has anyone literally felt the " stones " moved transversely across

the liver to the gallbladder like I have?

[Guest guest]

Dear Christa,

Since you have made refference to my statement in your post, allow me

to give you my opinion. Mind you, it is only one opinion based on my

personal situation, health, knowledge, experience, and medical

guesses. :-)

First of all let me say " congratualtions " on your success in cleaning

up your body of any toxins and wastes that have been possibly hanging

around in your body, blood, liver, and digestive tract over several

years. Flushing can never 'really' hurt anyone and the potential

benefits are worth the attempts to reach better health. You are doing

great. The goal is health, painfree living, and happiness.

Call them what you will. Does it matter really? I call those soft

ones 'bile balls'. There are many things that exit your body when you

excellerate the cleanse of your liver and digestive system with a

flush. Sludge, grainy sand, soft globs or balls of bile, strings of

parasitic stuff, and even hard gallstones that have hardened within

the gb. All of these things are different and need to be identified

properly so that you can proceed in the correct fashion for your own

personal health.

In my opinion, it is always good to get rid of any of these bad

objects in your body. Many things can cause these buildups of toxins,

waste, and bad consistancy of bile production and/or flow. For

instance, as in bile, you can have a healthy gb but the bile

ingrediences or flow may be bad. Also, you can have healthy bile but

the gb could be sluggish or diseased. The many factors of these

problems could be diet, health, aging, stress, heretitary, weight

gain or loss, and many more. Aging, heretitary, and weight gain was

the contributing factors to my gallstone forming within a sluggish

and 'going bad' gb. Bile contents, flow, and gb were all the reasons

in my case for producing gallstones.

In my opinion, everyone produces 'bile balls'. These will normally

work their way out of the body with good dieting and a good

functioning digestive and biliary system in regular stool. In fact, I

believe that the flushing methods not only speeds up this elimination

of bad or good bile but also helps us to observe the bile in the ball

like state that we see it exit in. Flushing is good to remove bad

bile in this 'bile ball' state but good dietary changes will

definitely assist in changing the bad bile consistancy, contents, and

flow to exit in a more healthy fashion. Aging, diseasing gb,

heretitary, and some others reasons cannot be as successfully

corrected with dieting. Works for some but not for others.

Again, your experience is unique and can only be analyzed by you and

no one else. You get to know and learn about your body and health as

you start looking seriously inward at it. You take your own health

into your own hands with study. Only you can determine what you need

to do for your health and happiness. For someone else to explain to

you why you have colic pain is only a futile attempt to be smarter

than you yourself. Opinions can be offered but only you can reach the

correct conclusions for your body and health. Keep searching. It is a

lifelong process. Example why it is up to you ; Why did my

grandfather smoke until he was 95 and died of natural causes and my

uncle smoked and died of lung cancer at age 40? Everyone is

different. What works for someone may not work for others.

Some explanations of why your colic has slowed since flushing can be

too many to put in words but can still be speculated. Flushing

regularly with large amounts of olive oil introduced into your

digestive system will relieve the binary colic pain to a certain

degree depending on the individuals situation. Coating the liver, gb,

and entire digestive tract will help a lot of things including colon

action. Olive oil is a good thing to ingest on a regular basis and

whether you still have hard colic gallstones in your gb the cleansing

will certainly help mask the colic until you eliminate the problem

entirely. That is one explanation why colic is reduced in a person

who is on a regular flushing method. Sandy grainy stuff, sludge,

small particles within the ducts, liver, gb that are removed in the

first attempts will definitely help you as well. Whatever comes out

will help you for sure. The degree of that success is based on

individual conditions.

In my case ; I did 8 cleanses (bi-weekly) over a 3-4 month period.

I eliminated over 2,000 soft 'bile balls', grainy sandy stuff,

sludge, around a dozen small, hard, pigmented, black stones but never

the 1.1 cm, hard, cholesterol, gallstone (showed on ultrasound), that

was causing my original colic pain. I lost nearly 15 pounds and was

below my healthy weight. The pain increased over the time of flushing

as I was dieting well. It was as if the binary system was becoming

more sensative as the stone was trying to exit during my cleansing

attempts. I had my gb removed surgically 2 weeks ago. The gb was semi-

diseased with the walls being 4mm instead of a normal 2mm. If I had

removed the stone, or flushed the stone, the condition would have

returned no matter what I did with my diet. Heretitarily my gb was

doomed to eventually fail once it started to age and become sluggish

with the earlier bad dieting habits. I tried to re-condition my gb

and clean up my act but eventually the pain was coming 3 to 4 times a

week. I chose the lesser of the two 'evils'. Since then I have been

eating everything, no diarrhea or post-surgery problems and have put

on 5 pounds already. My mental health and happiness has gone from

inward to outward again. I was constantly thinking about my gb and

was unhappy with my eating habits and life in general. I am now more

positive and happy as ever. I think outward more than inward now.

Currently I am 'beefing up' but will always diet better now since

learning many things in this group over the last 5 months.

I hope this helps answer some questions for you in some way. The key

is health and happiness. Painfree living. Good luck with your

individual search for better health and happiness.

Barry.

>

> Hello Stoners,

>

> I have been reading this list with interest for some months now.

Because of time restraints, I have not introduced myself nor have I

written my point by point experiences with the flushes that I have

been doing since early January, but I can say that every single flush

I have done so far has been a completely different experience. I am

open to anyone who may wish to respond to this lengthy introduction.

>

> A synopsis of my experiences...

>

> Me: vegetarian, good diet, active (in my profession and I even did

a marathon when I was going through some of the worst of the pain

episodes :~) ), mid 30's, female, no children, no family with similar

symptoms...only thing I can think of that my lead to this tendency is

that I was born " jaundiced. "

>

> Symptoms Prior to Flushes: (Please note some of these symptoms came

on gradually over years and others were induced by what my doctor had

prescribed to " help " me - I was the pain and the NON help of my

doctors sent me in search of finding alternative routes to stop the

pain - only to find out the flushing is also clearing up, or at least

greatly reducing, ALL of these other symptoms).... chronic colic like

pain originating in the GB area and radiating around the liver area -

both anteriorly, laterally and posteriorly - which lasted for over a

year and gradually kept getting worse (did not have any pattern to

it - sometimes it was constant - sometimes it would subside - it did

not seem to " flare up " or calm down by anything I ate, did, how I

slept, or what I did to try and relieve the pain), difficulty taking

in deep breaths, difficultly bending over at waist, difficulty

palpating under the ribs when trying to sooth the pain, chronic

hiccups, skin inflammation and breakouts, very evident signs of

accelerated skin aging last year before the flush, daily hot

flashes/heat intolerant (love a good steam though), low body

temperature, low blood pressure, fast resting heart rate - easy to

get going too fast when exercising, borderline low iron levels, dry

flaky skin on feet, face, and scalp (scalp was a recent development),

psoriasis patch on the back of the neck and scalp about the size of

my fist, significant increase of " gray " hair (I have always had a

few " gray " hairs - even as a child), fatigue, swelling in joints,

swelling in legs, pain and discoloration in ankles and feet (mottled

red, yellow, white, blue, and purple colors - yes, I know, sounds

pretty ugly...and it was!), bloating and gas in the abdomen,

occasionally bowel disturbances but not that noticeable...at the time-

that is - now I know better - I was having more problems with that

than I'd wanted to admit ;~), insomnia, restless and light sleeper,

weight gain (even though I was training for a marathon and watching

my diet closely! Yeah, my trainers were baffled by it too.),

significant swelling in some of the glands of my neck, increased

sinus problems that are not related to my displaced septum, chronic

upper back and neck stiffness and pain - mostly right side.

>

> Attempts with " healing " using " modern medicine " : Went to the doctor

specifically to consult for pain in my side and the swollen gland in

my neck. The1st visit with doctor resulted in doing a blood test.

Prescribed iron for " borderline " iron levels. I refused to take the

ferrous sulfate. Tried a more natural source for iron in same dosages

that were prescribed. BIG MISTAKE! A number of the symptoms that are

mentioned above resulted from this experience, or were GREATLY

exacerbated...including the pain in my side, some of the resulting

symptoms (hair falling out, reddish stretch marks suddenly appearing

on lower abdomen, muscle cramps, skin turning " copper " colored,

depression and significant mood changes)...did subside within a few

months after stopping the iron. I stopped the prescription 3/4 of the

way through what the doctor had prescribed. Tested again for Iron.

Normal (HA!...if you call being near death's door being normal...I

had all the symptoms of significant iron poisoning). Started

cleansing at the point which lasted for several months - first a

bowel cleanse, then the parasite cleanse, and then the kidney

cleanse. None of these really made much difference for me. Since my

blood test had showed normal lipid and cholesterol levels, doctor

began to think it may be a UT infection. The doctor then ordered a

UA. Test came back with borderline elevated leukocytes. Tested again -

clear. Tested again - borderline. Doctor prescribed Cipro - " just to

be sure. " Tried alternative method of manose first. Test then came

back normal. Pain in GB area still there though. Over a 8 month

period tested nearly monthly, with random results on UA, sometime

borderline, most of the time clear. Finally, in frustration I gave

into taking the Cipro. Inflamation response did go down, along with

some...but not all...of the pain. Next UA was clear. ...but the pain

was still there. Saw a different doctor, who puzzled as to why I had

had so many UA's, and been prescribed Cipro, for having such a low

number of elevated leukocytes from the tests...decided it might be

the gallbladder after all and ordered an ultrasound. Test showed

clear on all organs that were checked (spleen, liver, gallbladder,

pancreas, and kidneys), lipid and cholesterol levels normal. At this

point I found Dr. Chang's site and gave up on the my doctor's.

Haven't been back since.

>

> Started Dr Chang's regimen. The Chinese Bitters gave me a great

deal of discomfort, even in lower dosages. Switched to CGG, Coptis, &

Curcuma, did 4 weeks and then began my flushes. Added the bitters

back in after the 2nd flush with no more problems. Every flush has

had different results without much change in the way I have done

them. The only difference is that I added the Epsom salts to the 3rd

flush and kept with that from that point on). I have only had the

waxy and soft " cholesterol " stones pass with the 6 flushes I have

done so far (with a couple of them being nearly 2 inches long and 3/4

inches in diameter). Of all the 6 flushes - for 4 of them, in order

to even get any results, I had to flush two nights in row ( more

accurately on the 2nd flush, I started getting results when I was on

my 3rd glass of the " mixture " on the second night...I passed the

most " stones " along other stuff with that flush. The 3rd time I got

result the first try. The last flush, I got results the first time

but it was as I downing the first glass of the seconds night's oil,

so I went ahead and did the second night anyway... which did not

produce anything but obvious olive oil and grapefruit juice). Other

then the 3rd flush, the " stones " have all been varying shades of

green. The first 2 flushes produced the dark emerald green ones. The

later flushes produced the lighter green and sometimes pure white

ones. The white ones are the softest and most crumbly of them all.

The 3rd flush, produced mostly tan, orangish, waxy and more

rubbery " stones " (this is the one that I did only one night of

the " mixture. " ) I have also noticed with the last 2 flushes that

after I pass the stones, a little later I will pass what looks like a

glob of pure cholesterol. It is white in color, is not in the shape

of a stone and would amount to about 2 to 3 tablespoons full (the

texture is the same as the whit looking stones...it just doesn't have

any real shape to it.. I am wondering if this is some of the `fat " I

having been losing with my weight loss. I have lost about 15 to 20

pounds and a lot of inches (not to mention all the other health

improvements that keep on coming)...the last 3 flushes only produced

around 100 to 150 " stones " combined. The largest " stones " that I have

passed since I started were passed were during the 4th, 3rd, and 5th

flush (descending order of size). Overall, I would say I had passed

only about 700 to 800 " stones " altogether - which is nothing like the

numbers I have been hearing from others. The biggest joy to me is I

now have only a very specifically located occasional " twinge " of pain

(toward the lateral side of my ribs around the liver area) which

leads me to believe there is still a larger " stone " lodged there that

is trying to move its way down to the gall bladder...but hasn't yet.

(BTW, I did feel the largest stones move laterally to my gallbladder

before they flushed out...and they were in some the areas that used

to be part of my chronic pain).

>

> Well, I think I have written enough about my flushes for now.

>

> Now to....

>

> .....Gallstones that cause colic pain and that have hardened within

the gallbladder is in my opinion the only form of bile that should be

termed as 'gallstones'. The soft balls of whatever bile content,

cholesterol, or even oil for that matter, does not usually require an

accelerated means of exiting as with the process of a flush. It will

not usually cause a problem and will generally exit within the normal

function of digestive action........

>

> My questions now are....

>

> Given my experience ...if what I have passed is not " gallstones "

what should they be called? I have heard the term " liver stones " used

on occasion. Is that a more accurate term to use? Maybe " bile " stone?

I am just trying to figure out what to call these things. If

not " stones " ...then what?

>

> For so few stones to have passed in these flushes, and all of them

being the `soft' kind, why was I experiencing such significant

chronic pain which started around my GB?...and if these " stones "

match the description of what Barry says should pass and dissolve

normally, then what would cause the breakdown of this natural process

in someone who eats VERY little cholesterol in the first place? (I

have been a vegetarian all my life and have consumed very little

dairy and eggs over the years. Since I started this flushing, I have

been switching to a nearly vegan 70% to 80% raw diet and been

reducing my omega 6 and increasing my omega 3 intake)

>

> Has anyone else had to flush for 2 nights in order to get results?

Does anyone have an idea as to why I needed to do this " extra purge "

to get the stones to pass?

>

> Has anyone literally felt the " stones " moved transversely across

the liver to the gallbladder like I have?

>

> I have been learning a lot from this list and look forward to

further discussion and stories.

>

> Christa

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Christa,

I can briefly state an opinion regarding this question:

" For so few stones to have passed in these flushes, and all of them being the

‘soft’ kind, why was I experiencing such significant chronic pain

which started around my GB?... "

I most likely still had a stone stuck in my common bile duct after I'd had GB

surgery, which caused me to continue to experience severe GB-like attacks.

After doing 2 liver cleanses, all pain and symptoms were gone. I did not pass

any calcified stones; they were all the softer cholesterol stones, of varying

size. So, my guess is that the soft stones can cause just as much agony as the

harder calcified ones. I'll make another guess and say that the softer ones are

normally the most likely to get stuck in a duct, being that they are softer,

smoother and rounded in shape and would pass through the ducts easier than the

calcified ones that are harder and multi-faceted.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

Adrienne

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your reply Suzanne.

...............You wonder about not passing stones, but the pain

easing/subsiding..........

I was more curious about the small overall numbers of stones that I have passed

considering the amount of problems they were causing me. I do feel confident

that the larger stones were the culprits of the pain I was experiencing...and

the pain they were causing is definitely gone since I felt them move out of the

liver areas they were lodged in. For their size, and given the great discomfort

they were causing, I am puzzled as to why there wasn’t more " stones " that passed

with or since they have passed. I would have thought there would have been more,

but with so few passing in the last 3 flushes, and ALL of the symptoms I was

having are disappearing...if they are not already gone, I do feel I am ready for

maintenance stage.

.......... I am not sure of an answer, but my theory is that a weakened liver can

create havoc with the gallbladder........

Yes, I agree. What I am trying to comprehend is what were the factors that set

the stage for this problem to occur with someone like me. I have numerous people

and doctors who considered my diet, prior to flushing, which is one I was raised

with (my mother used to own a health food store and is a vegetarian herself), to

be exemplarily. What factors are at work to make me have to be almost fanatical

with every morsel I put in my body to keep my liver from developing these

" stones " that have grown to the size I ended up passing. What caused them to get

so big? Why did they not break down and pass like Barry suggest they should do

naturally? Why is so little dairy consumption resulting in this? Is there

something else that I have been consuming that would cause the body to create

those kind of stones that is not originally from an outside source of

cholesterol? My sister is lactose intolerant. Is it possibly some sort of an

allergy or inability to digest the dairy properly, even in small quantities?

.......(Check out Dr Cabot's site for a bit of a liver guide.)...

Thank you. I have check out that site, as well as many of the other sites that

have been referenced to over the past few months. They have taught me a great

deal!

........Don't forget that not all stones show up in the ultrasound - your test

could be a " false negative " .........

I have not passed any " calcified " stones, so it is possible some of the soft

stones were in my gallbladder...but did not show up on the ultrasound. In the

first flush I also did experience a lot of the " chaff " like stuff (no sandy like

stuff though) that others on this list have experienced. I have not had any of

that pass since. Another thing that I have noticed that has passed in the first

few flushes (the last few did not have this) where bits of a clay like

substance. They literally had the look, texture and feel of a cream colored

potter’s clay. These too seemed to pass more on the second round of the mixture

that with the first night. Most of these were small....but I did have a few

larger sized ones that were a bit surprising. The largest one was a good two

inches long, about an inch wide, and about 1/4 of an inch thick. I do not feel

these came from the gallbladder but were more likely coming from the walls of

the colon...possibly at the juncture point were the ascending and the transverse

colon meet right under the stomach and the liver. I was pretty swollen

there...not anymore though! :~) I had done the intestinal cleanse before I did

the flushes, so it is possible the oil may have helped loosen the formation

enough to finally break loose and allow them to pass.

...........How were the condition of the walls of the gallbladder- normal

thickness?.....

I was told that everything looked " normal. " The only thing that was mentioned

was that they could not get a completely clear picture of my spleen...but what

they could see of it looked fine. Since that was on the other side from where I

was expressing I was having pain, they were not too concerned on doing another

scan.

....... The cleansing and diet alteration will help the function of your liver to

improve; which will in turn result in better gallbladder function.....

To improve bile flow I have been implementing the following. Using the Chinese

Bitters as directed, juicing a lot more dark leafy greens, eating more raw

vegetable with focus on including ones that are known for liver support, eating

more grapefruit and lemons, using more apple cider vinegar (including pickling

other spices, herbs, and vegetables in it), increasing omega 3's and decreasing

omega 6's, using more olive oil in place of other oils, decreasing dairy to

almost to nonexistent usage (I didn’t eat much of it in the first place), eating

out less, eating more frequent smaller meals throughout the day, trying to avoid

eating too late at night, avoiding cold foods and liquids with my meals (I try

to eat or drink them by themselves now). I am hoping this will get me to a point

where I won’t have any more problems with my liver. Looking back on the symptoms

and seeing where I am now with all of this...this has been a problem that has

been slowly creeping up on me...so slowly, I didn’t really notice too much, I

had just though a lot of them were just me " getting older " ....until the pain in

my side started.

.......This will ease the pain - I surmise......

And it has....other than the occasional twinge in that one location I mentioned,

I’ve been feeling great! A number of people have been telling me that I look

like I have regressed in age about 10 years since I started the flushing...and I

feel like it too. Sometime when I look in the mirror, I have to do a double

take...increasingly I have been seeing more of the face I used to see in the

mirror when I was in my early 20's. There are times when it occurs to me that I

feel better, more healthy, alive and vital than when I was in my teens. Each day

I have been getting more and more of that feeling. If my liver is just naturally

sluggish and I will have to do maintenance flushing for the rest of my life to

keep feeling this good....then maintenance flushing I will happily do. I am

extremely grateful for having learned about it. It is something that is so

simple but has made such a huge difference in helping me regain my health and

vitality that I could feel was slowly slipping away from me. I know a lot about

other natural healing methods....I was raised by a " health nut " ....they just

weren’t working for me. That is why I gave in and went to the doctors. Now I

have come to realize that the cornerstone of any healing method must focus on

strengthening the function of the liver....that this must be addressed first if

any progress is to be made with a majority of the health problems that one might

have.

......I have thought to feel stones move, but don't know if it isn't my vivid

imagination:)....

I know that for the two largest stones that moved, it wasn’t my imagination.

Their movement had a very distinct feeling, like someone taking there finger and

rubbing in a downward line toward my gallbladder with their finger...only the

feeling was coming from the inside. It startled me more than hurt. Once it

reached the GB area, the discomfort of where the feeling started was completely

gone...and has not come back. They both moved down early the next morning (this

again was in separate flushes) after I had done the second round of the mixture.

They both passed with 2 to 3 hours later and there was only a few other " stones "

that passed with them. The largest stone was very smooth textured, the second

largest one was much more gnarled looking and some of the other smaller stones

that had passed with that one looked like they had broken off from it.

........A flush 2 nights in a row?? That sounds like a lot of flushing in one

go.....

Yes, but I only did that when I wasn’t getting results with just one night of

the mixture.

......You could be risking too low electrolytes or putting a strain on your

organs - depending on your method.....

I did Dr. Chang’s method. Nothing fancy. I did add the Epsom salts on the 3rd

flush to see if it would get me to where I would get results with just one night

of flushing...and it did work...but only on the third flush. On the 4th and 5th

flush I did not get much results with just one night and the movement of the

large stones only happened when I had done the second night. I do not feel I

would have been able to pass them that quickly if I had not done to the second

night. I may have passed them eventually with more flushes, but I feel the added

oil helped give them the extra " tug " they need to break loose, come down and

pass. I have been very careful to supplement my diet with potassium, calcium,

and magnesium rich juiced greens after I have done each flush. When I have done

that, I have not had any ill effects after the oil mixture has completely passed

through me....In fact, I have always felt incredible after each flush...and with

each one I do I feel even more so. The only ill effects I have had with the

flushing was the following...when I first did the Epsom salts I got the " burn " a

lot of you have talked about and I ended up passing blood from it. The burn did

not happen with any of the later flushes. During the 5th flush, the next morning

after doing the second round of the mixture, I woke up nauseated. That feeling

passed once my bowels cleared. On the last flush, for the first time I got

nauseated trying to get the second night’s round of the mixture down, I did only

3 glasses instead of 4...I just couldn’t get anymore down me. It was the only

time I ended up nauseated the whole night and the next morning. When the mixture

came through with nothing...I mean nothing...but the congealed yellowish olive

oil and grapefruit mixture, I figured the nausea was my body’s way of telling me

that I was ready for just maintenance flushing now.

......You neglected to mention if you've had any hormone levels checked in all of

your testing. Some of your symptoms (hair loss/sleeplessness/hot flashes are all

indicators of hormone imbalances. Thyroid could be sluggish. Best wishes for

your health....

My thyroid tested normal when I first saw my doctor and she had ordered the

blood panel that prompted her to prescribe the iron. I did come in with the hot

flashes as an ongoing symptom, along with the skin discoloration on my feet and

the psoriasis on my neck, that had been getting worse over the years (all these

started when back in 1993). A complete blood panel was done and

everything...except the iron level....came back within normal range. Personally

I feel the hot flashes were induced by my congested liver and taking the iron

threw EVERYTHING out of balance for me. Though I am still sensitive to heat, I

have not had anymore hot flashes since I started the gallbladder flushes. I did

not start loosing my hair until the third week of taking the iron. That problem

cleared up after I stopped the iron. My hair growth is normal now. I have been a

restless and light sleeper all of my life. I have noticed since the flush,

though I am still a light sleeper (I need white noise to keep from easily being

woken up) I do sleep sounder and require a lot less sleep. I am currently

averaging about 5 hours a night and am finding that I am waking up more easily

in the morning (for the night owl I am :~)) and I am a lot more alert and

mentally clearer now.

Regards,

Christa

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/02 12:23:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

lochmabon@... writes:

> Looking back on the symptoms and seeing where I am now with all of

> this...this has been a problem that has been slowly creeping up on me...so

> slowly, I didn’t really notice too much, I had just though a lot of them

> were just me " getting older " ....until the pain in my side started.

I just wanted to say that you're definitely not alone with this way of

thinking. I think that society/the media has kind of programmed us to

believe that we're supposed to fall apart as we get older, when actually a

lot of those things that are considered " natural " can be prevented with

proper care. The unfortunate thing is that most people aren't aware that

cleansing is part of that care. I'm glad that you discovered it (and us!)

and can take these steps for a healthier future.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

rachel~

[Guest guest]

Dear Christa,

Diet is not the only thing which can give us gallstones or the pain

associated with gallstones. Many factors can contribute to a

circumstance with symptoms such as you have. - diet, hereditary,

stress levels, toxins from the environment. Even an abnormally small

bile duct can be super sensative to stress and give you painful

symptoms after stressful times. We just must do our best to clean up

our act as totally as we can. I agree with you and believe dairy can

put more of a tax on a body to digest if you are slightly lactose

intolerant. I'm sure that the hormones int the dairy products don't

do wonder for our systems as well.

The thing that let loose at " juncture point were the ascending and

the transverse colon " sounds interesting. I'm not so familiar with

the total inside of the body and would like to understand more as to

how the bowel hooks up to the stomach/gallbladder. We're constantly

on a pathway to learning.

As for feeling younger - Congratulations!! Maybe you've discovered

the fountain of youth...... Just remember that youth is in the

mind ... When you feel well, you feel youthful.

Best wishes,

~Suzanne

>What I am trying to comprehend is what were the factors that set the

>stage for this problem to occur with someone like me. I have

>numerous people and doctors who considered my diet, prior to

>flushing, which is one I was raised with (my mother used to own a

>health food store and is a vegetarian herself), to be exemplarily.

>What factors are at work to make me have to be almost fanatical with

>every morsel I put in my body to keep my liver from developing

>these " stones " that have grown to the size I ended up passing. What

>caused them to get so big? Why is so little dairy consumption

>resulting in this? Is there something else that I have been

>consuming that would cause the body to create those kind of stones

>that is not originally from an outside source of cholesterol? My

>sister is lactose intolerant. Is it possibly some sort of an allergy

>or inability to digest the dairy properly, even in small quantities?

.............

>The largest one was a good two inches long, about an inch wide, and

>about 1/4 of an inch thick. I do not feel these came from the

>gallbladder but were more likely coming from the walls of the

>colon...possibly at the juncture point were the ascending and the

>transverse colon meet right under the stomach and the liver......I

>look like I have regressed in age about 10 years since I started the

>flushing.

[Guest guest]

Christa, I had these same stones this morning after drinking prune

juice. You described them well. There also seemed to be a slurry kind

of stuff the same color. Mine were " only " 1/2 " and 3/4 " (two of them)

and then lots of smaller ones. They were also firmer than the green

bile stones. Dawn

They literally had the look, texture and feel of a cream colored

potter's clay. These too seemed to pass more on the second round of

the mixture that with the first night. Most of these were

small....but I did have a few larger sized ones that were a bit

surprising. The largest one was a good two inches long, about an inch

wide, and about 1/4 of an inch thick.

[Guest guest]

Nin-

What is your name? I, too, am a native New Yorker (living in Boston for

the time.)

Get into it gently, by first eliminating all the " junk " from your diet

and NOT worrying about calories (you sound rather slender anyway.) After you

do a " housecleaning " for a few weeks, you can begin the CR part.

[Guest guest]

I Work in Manhatten and was born and raise din NYC (currently live

in long Island). 911 was a very tramatic event, especially those of us in

the city that day. I have lost a work colleague who did not report to work

that day but went into those burning building that day ( he was an EMT

volunteer before working with me) and perished when the first tower

fell. I have lost several neighbor's also. Severalc children in my kid's

school lost a parent that day.

While it has been difficult, to motivate myself to stay on CRON I

only have to look at the faces of my 6 and 8 year old daughters as well as

my wonderful wife of 14 years (the only good-looking chick after my and my

new body Ian!) and be determined to stay healthy. I lost my father at age

56, my brother at 49, and both grand fathers before they were 50. Men do

not live long in my family and I am determined to break that curse.

Sometimes we have to overcome these events in live, bear down, and

move on. Otherwise, the terrorists have won.

Joe

At 08:20 AM 5/28/02 -0400, you wrote:

>I have been following the posts on this site since its inception and have

>been an on again/off again follower of CR. Eversince the 9/11 attack in

>NYC (I live there) I have been everywhere except on track regarding

>caloric intake, however. Rather than belabor this let me just explain why

>I am now sending this message. Basically, I need to get back into my CRON

>groove and I figure the best way is to introduce myself and my

>motivations. I am a 47 year old female and my normal weight, at 5'2 " , is

>about 100-105 pounds. I figure if I stabilize at no less than 90-95, that

>will be acceptable, keeping in mind that what matters is the caloric

>intake, not the absolute weight. For the next 2 weeks I have family

>obligations which may preclude my full dedication to the plan but I am

>just feeling the need to let people know I'm out here and may need a

>little support. Thanks.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My name is and getting rid of the junk food is my first goal -

unfortunately my upcoming 2 weeks of family obligations include visiting 3

nephews under the age of 6 and lots of cookie baking. (Of course no one says I

have to actually eat any of it!).

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I have been following the posts on this site since its inception and have been

> an on again/off again follower of CR.

: many of us remember you. Thanks for returning to " active " status.

How about joining us Monday nights in the chat room?

[Guest guest]

wrote to :

> Get into it gently,

: I agree. So take your own advice and raise those calories a bit!

[Guest guest]

Every little bit helps... you can substitute whole grain flour for refined, splenda for sugar (unless cooking with yeast), high omega 3 eggs for normal, etc.... life is not an either or proposition, every recipe can be made better or at least less harmful.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: nintriere@... [mailto:nintriere@...]Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [ ] introductionMy name is and getting rid of the junk food is my first goal - unfortunately my upcoming 2 weeks of family obligations include visiting 3 nephews under the age of 6 and lots of cookie baking. (Of course no one says I have to actually eat any of it!).

[Guest guest]

I'll try, the only thing is I no longer have the instructions for joining in.

could you send them (under separate post if necessary). thanks.

[Guest guest]

>you can substitute whole grain flour for refined,

>splenda for sugar (unless cooking with yeast),

Does Splenda not work when cooking with yeast? I hadn't heard that.

- Robin

_________________________________________________________________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Yeast eats sugar to grow and create the carbon dioxide that causes breads to rise. Neither the maltodextrin used as an extender or the sucralose in Splenda has enough nutritive energy to feed the yeast.

Of course if a recipe using yeast called for a cup of sugar, you could add a few teaspoons of real sugar with the balance Splenda. Or just lose the yeast and substitute backing powder.

Don't be afraid to experiment. It's possible to to make some unhealthy pleasures much less unhealthy....

JR

-----Original Message-----From: Robin M [mailto:r061n@...]Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 2:41 PM Subject: RE: [ ] introduction>you can substitute whole grain flour for refined,>splenda for sugar (unless cooking with yeast),Does Splenda not work when cooking with yeast? I hadn't heard that.- Robin_________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve: It sure sounds like you're already in the CR stage. You're

losing aren't you? Just keep doing what you're doing and follow Suzi's

advice.

After our off list conversation, I wonder if you meant you're catching up on

the files, not the archives (the archives would be a monumental job)? If

you're reading the files, good for you. They should help and are taken from

our collective experiences.

We've discussed eating out but it's a good topic to bring up again. My own

advice is to:

1) avoid " all you can eat " joints and fast food,

2)go heavy on the fish and veggies,

3)avoid desserts except fresh fruit,

4)keep sauces and salad dressings on the side (where you can partake

lightly) .

I hope others will add their .02 on how/what they do. BTW my husband and I

eat Chinese about once a week. I leave most of the sauces on the plate by

eating with a fork and letting them drip through, I skip the rice and

eggroll, and I eat moderately. But I still believe in enjoying life so I do

eat it, just sensibly.

on 7/24/2002 1:58 PM, Steve Sergeant at stevesgt@... wrote:

> Does anyone else have experiences to share on what they encountered

> when proceeding from the ON to the CR stage? How long did you hover

> in the ON stage before actually starting CR?

>

> Also, I travel frequently on business, and eat at restaurants

> frequently on other travels. What advice do other people have on

> eating properly in those situations?

>

> I'm still catching up on all of your archives (that may take me a

> couple of weeks). I'm looking forward to benefiting from the

> collective wisdom of the group.

[Guest guest]

At 4:26 PM -0400 7/24/02, Francesca Skelton wrote:

>Hi Steve: It sure sounds like you're already in the CR stage. You're

>losing aren't you? Just keep doing what you're doing and follow Suzi's

>advice.

I think I've levelled off. We'll see over the next few weeks. 2200

to 2500 calories sounds like a lot compared to some of you talking

about 1500 to 1800 calorie diets.

>After our off list conversation, I wonder if you meant you're catching up on

>the files, not the archives (the archives would be a monumental job)? If

>you're reading the files, good for you. They should help and are taken from

>our collective experiences.

I started with the files, and skipped around in the e-mail archives a

little bit. There certainly is a lot there to read.

>We've discussed eating out but it's a good topic to bring up again. My own

>advice is to:

>1) avoid " all you can eat " joints and fast food,

One exception to the " all you can eat " place rule, the

all-you-can-eat salad bar places, like Fresh Choice, Sweet Tomatoes,

or SoupPlantation (here in California) are pretty good if you focus

on the fresh veggies, rather than the breads, soups, and deserts.

>2)go heavy on the fish and veggies,

>3)avoid desserts except fresh fruit,

>4)keep sauces and salad dressings on the side (where you can partake

>lightly) .

The hardest part for me is knowing what I'm getting in a unfamiliar

restaurant. Some of the questions I ask about ingredients and

cooking methods really annoy the wait-staff. :-)

[Guest guest]

on 7/24/2002 9:28 PM, Steve Sergeant at stevesgt@... wrote:

> At 4:26 PM -0400 7/24/02, Francesca Skelton wrote:

>> Hi Steve: It sure sounds like you're already in the CR stage. You're

>> losing aren't you? Just keep doing what you're doing and follow Suzi's

>> advice.

>

> I think I've levelled off. We'll see over the next few weeks. 2200

> to 2500 calories sounds like a lot compared to some of you talking

> about 1500 to 1800 calorie diets.

" The hardest part for me is knowing what I'm getting in a unfamiliar

restaurant. Some of the questions I ask about ingredients and

cooking methods really annoy the wait-staff. :-)

Steve: everyone needs a different cal level. Also, many of us who are

talking about 1500 to 1800 cal a day are puny 5 " 4 " or so small boned women.

Some of the men do eat as much as 2200 cal a day and still have lost weight

to the extreme. It's very individual. Lower your calories s-l-o-w-l-y.

Lose your weight slowly. If we've learned anything, it's that there are

serious health consequences to losing weight too fast. Better a snail's

pace. Another thing - you're 44, aren't you? You're no spring chicken any

more (sorry about that, but neither am I :-) Us cronies in middle age must

lose more slowly or we shorten our lives rather than the opposite. Shock to

the old system and all that.

As for the wait-staff - the heck with 'em. That's their job!! There are so

many people on different diets these days that you're just one of the crowd.

But the salad bars in sunny Cal that you describe sound like just the thing

for a CRONIE.

[Guest guest]

Mike: Welcome to the Group and a healthier life!! Please don't be shy

about asking questions. We love 'em.

I also urge the other new members to post and introduce yourselves. No

doubt you have questions. We may not have all the answers (some questions

are unanswerable) but we do have our many collective years of experience on

CRON. We all started out with many questions and just as they were answered

for us (or in some cases we had to learn from experience), we're happy to

answer for you.

on 8/6/2002 3:43 PM, Mike Hester at mike@... wrote:

> Hello Everyone,

>

> My name is Mike Hester and I live in Denver Colorado. I found out

> about the from the website of Dr. Roy Walford.

> Obviously I've joined the newsgroup.

>

> I have just received Dr. Walford's book: " The Anti-Aging Plan " , but

> havn't yet read any farther than the introduction.

>

> I am age 45, height 5' 7 " , weight 175 pounds, so a " Body Mass Index " of

> 27.5---slightly rounded---as am I, ha!

>

> I have been fasting periodically (for purpose of longevity) since about

> 1988. No more than a one-day fast each time, omitting all meals on a

> Saturday and resuming on Sunday morning. I used to fast weekly, now

> find I am doing it once every three or four months.

>

> I am in good health, other than having somewhat elevated triglycerides.

> I think that optimum nutrition will help in that regard.

>

> My first task is obviously education: read Dr. Walford's book (and the

> " Beyond the 120 Year Diet " book as well). Purge and organize my

> kitchen. Eat better first. Caloric reduction can start later on, once

> I know more about what I am doing.

>

> One " hobby " of mine has been to experiment with different health food

> supplements to see what effects (if any) various supplements produce. I

> have picked up a few things in this regard over the years.

>

> I'm sure that I will have some questions for the group in time. I have

> already downloaded numerous articles from the " Files "

> area, and from Dr. Walford's website. I intend to monitor and absorb

> new information before attempting to speak out on anything, so you

> probably won't see another post from me for a while.

>

> Are there any Denver area members in this group by chance? If so I

> would be glad to hear from you. This is my work email address; I'm here

> M-F, 9AM-5PM.

>

> Thanks for being willing to share what you have learned.

>

> Cheers,

> Mike Hester

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Welcome to the group Leisa. Hope to hear from you soon again.

>

> There are many other newbies we've never heard from. Please post

and

> introduce yourselves. If you have questions, we're here to help.

>

I guess I have not introduced myself here, just on the other list.

36y/o female 5'5 " 125lbs. First read 120 year diet in 1988. Liked

the concept, I was just too young and felt fairly invinceable from

age and disease (and the food sounded yucky!) Fast forward 14

years...maturationally ready to now take control of my health and now

like these foods-- My kids say it is because your taste buds die as

you get older . Anyway diet before was probally 80% carb, 10, and

10 (tons of sugar). Very, very small boned and not a lot of muscle

and would estimate body fat to be 25%, but am having tested next

week. Toyed around with CR for past 3 1/2 years, quit while

pregnant/nursing. Now ready to go full throttle. Appreciate all the

support you give each other. Thanks Francesca.

Leisa

[Guest guest]

>Anyway diet before was probally 80% carb, 10, and

> 10 (tons of sugar). Very, very small boned and not a lot of muscle

Have you ever been tested for osteoporosis? Just a hunch - being

small boned, having been somewhat thin for a long time, and still not

quite active enough myself. Of course I have commited other

lifestyle sins as well that maybe lead to my osteo - rapid weight

loss (once), veganism, low calcium consumption, soft drink

consumption. All of which I have pretty much given up.

> and would estimate body fat to be 25%,

yea my body fat is still not terribly low although it is within the

healthy range. I guess that means I can continue to eat low or even

lower calories and be more active (if I wasn't always using the

excuse of having no time after 8 hours of work and 2 hours commute )

>but am having tested next

> week. Toyed around with CR for past 3 1/2 years, quit while

> pregnant/nursing. Now ready to go full throttle. Appreciate all

the

> support you give each other. Thanks Francesca.

> Leisa

[Guest guest]

Katrina; welcome and thanks for coming out of lurkdom. Congrats on your

success thus far!! You have done an amazing job and seem to already possess

all the knowledge you need to continue on the right path.

Have you looked over our recipe folder/file? We have many very easy to

prepare excellent CRON recipes of all kinds. Just go to the home page:

/ and click on " files " in the

left hand margin. Then click on any file you want to read.

Another useful file for you might be: " Checklist for CRON Variety " .

Also in another one of our files: " Nutrient Tracking Programs " we list

several free DWIDP-type programs available on the web which may serve you

just as well as DWIDP.

I can't answer your longevity questions and I'd be surprised if anyone else

can. We don't even know if those of us who are were disease-free pre-CRON

will live any longer than usual - we're the guinea pigs in this human

experiment. We do know that we're healthier than we were before CRON so the

ON part surely works anyway!

on 4/21/2003 5:18 PM, Katrina at katnap@... wrote:

> I

> started two months ago at 197lbs and 33% body fat (I have large bones and a

> fair amount of muscle from years of gym). I am now down to 188lbs and 27%

> body fat, which means I am losing about a pound per week. My weight seems

> to gravitate to about 170-174 as my set point.

Up until two years ago, my basal temperature was always 96-97

> and I was barely able to even lift my hands up on to the keyboard some

> days. Now I make it to 97-98, and I feel much better and get to the gym 2

> or 3 times per week.

>

> I read once that 95% of all people do not stick to diets long-term. I

> hope, and intend, to be in the other 5%, and my consistency with Paleo

> leads me to believe that I have the strength and will power if the end goal

> is objective, real, and important to me.

>

> If anyone has some great gluten-free quick meals for a single person who

> works way too many hours, I would love to read them. :-) Thanks.

>

> Katrina.

[Guest guest]

Greetings to All,

I am a new member. This is all very fresh for me. I had my implants 9 years ago. Recently went to the doctor for some aching knees that have given me problems for two months now, and a sore throat/cough. Dr. sent me for blood work which showed some positive sign for lupus. Over the weekend i have been researching and reading, and now I can hardly wait until Monday to call around finding out how much and when i can get these out of me. After the research i have found that i have had signs all along, just never connected the two. Had surgery on my foot about 7 years ago for pain. Developed Irritable Bowel Sydrome about 5 years ago. Currently take Nexium for GERD. I just turned 33 and have two kids ages 9 and 11. Have a new husband who is from Morrocco. Have 7 years retail managment experience but am currently unemployed which is a longer story that belongs in another sort of support group.

Hope everyone is having a better day

God Bless

kim

[Guest guest]

Welcome Kim!

So glad you joined us and are discovering how you can get better! It is a shock that implants may really be the root of all the symptoms you are having, isn't it? Especially the lupus....quite frightening to hear the doctor say those words. But I am really excited about the fact that we have women on this group who had elevated ANA's and elevated rheumatoid factors that have come down and even gone back to normal after explant. is my favorite example of a woman who overcame this, and she is such an inspiration for health! She's been on vacation, so I am sure she will write one of these days.

Anyway, you should be able to find an excellent explanting p/s there in Florida, (which I know is notorious for the amount of implanted women there) and be on your way to health soon. We have a couple girls here from Florida, and one of my friends who got explanted on the very same day at the very same hour as me is in Sarasota.....talk about being sisters through this! We've been in touch ever since.

Let us know what you find out...we hope you have an explant date soon.

Hugs,

Patty

----- Original Message -----

From: khadijashams@...

Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 8:39 AM

Subject: Re: Introduction

Greetings to All,I am a new member. This is all very fresh for me. I had my implants 9 years ago. Recently went to the doctor for some aching knees that have given me problems for two months now, and a sore throat/cough. Dr. sent me for blood work which showed some positive sign for lupus. Over the weekend i have been researching and reading, and now I can hardly wait until Monday to call around finding out how much and when i can get these out of me. After the research i have found that i have had signs all along, just never connected the two. Had surgery on my foot about 7 years ago for pain. Developed Irritable Bowel Sydrome about 5 years ago. Currently take Nexium for GERD. I just turned 33 and have two kids ages 9 and 11. Have a new husband who is from Morrocco. Have 7 years retail managment experience but am currently unemployed which is a longer story that belongs in another sort of support group. Hope everyone is having a better dayGod Blesskim