Re: got you till age six, own you for life

[Guest guest]

I agree; the only solutions I can think of are in the realm of fantasy at this

point.

Besides the idea of parental monitoring (based on the idea that pretty much

everyone who works has to report to someone higher-up for a yearly evaluation

and review of their performance... except parents. Parents are accountable to no

one, unless their abuses are so blatantly egregious that the police or Child

Protective Services are called in) I have this wishful thinking about setting

up a class in all grade levels, even preschool, and calling it " Emotional

Hygiene " .

It would be geared in age-appropriage ways, but the basic idea is to demonstrate

to children the difference between healthy ways of solving problems and relating

to other people, and unhealthy ways of problem-solving and relating to other

people.

This would be done with short films, and would cover topics like dealing with

bullies, how to be organized and exert self-discipline so you can do homework

efficiently (and have more time for play), and how to handle situations that

come up with friends, how to be a responsible pet-owner, etc.

Each topic would be demonstrated by having actors enacting one or two

emotionally healthy ways to handle this particular issue, and one or two

emotionally abusive, unhealthy ways of dealing with the same issue, and a

discussion period afterward.

In the course of demonstrating various topics, over the years the child would

observe and become aware that screaming at other people, hitting them, pitching

temper tantrums, being manipulative, being negligent, showing favoritism to one

sibling (or pet), and other such behaviors are considered abusive, and that

threatening suicide, performing self-harming acts, beating up on those smaller

than yourself, adults being sexual with children or older children being sexual

with smaller children, etc., are alarmingly abusive and need to be reported *no

matter who is doing these things.*

In other words, I think that the path to awareness and positive change is

through education.

It would take a generation or two, but if every child was taught from pre-school

up that its not OK for adults to hit kids, its not OK for adults (or older kids)

to bully children, its not OK for adults or older kids to have sex with

children, its not OK to neglect to feed children (etc.) and its important to

make sure that children have clean clothes and shoes to wear and for children to

have an education, to make sure children have regular dental care, eye care and

medical care, etc., etc. this awareness would eventually become a cultural norm.

If teaching these concepts became part of the regular school curriculum, I think

that children would be more inclined to report it if they're being abused at

home.

But, this is all just wishful thinking at this point. I realize that my idea of

" Emotional Hygiene " classes skirts very close to the concept of a " Big Brother "

culture, but I think that something along those lines (educating children about

mental health) would do more good than harm.

-Annie

>

>

> I think intense monitoring is an amazing idea, but the problem would

implementing it. Like you said, your nada was so high functioning no one really

knew outside of the immediate family. And if your family was like mine, if I had

told somebody, they'd have thought i was either making it up or was the problem

because she was so good at making things turn out her way, twisting things, and

dowright lying about them. My mother even threatened taking ME to a

psychologist because of my " issues. " In my mind, going to a psychologist would

have been hugely embarrassing. And it also just reiterated that there was

something wrong with me and not her.

>

> My mother was at times physically abusive, but mostly emotionally. I think

some of her 'dislosures' to me about her sex life and things like that were

sexually absuive too, but she would have denied it. I once confronted her (when

I was about 25) about telling me that my dad was impotent when I was 8. She

claims I was 18, not 8. And then I begin to question my own memory at that

point. She's so convincing and so conniving. She did it with everything though.

It's why NO ONE outside of our family knew what she was really like. I couldn't

get help because no one saw a problem. When I got in junior high (7th

grade), my OCD symptoms got reaaally bad. They put me in a school for

emotionally disturbed children and she never let me forget that it was ME who

was disturbed and she 'did all she could' and was a 'good mother.'

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree; the only solutions I can think of are in the realm of fantasy at this

point.

Besides the idea of parental monitoring (based on the idea that pretty much

everyone who works has to report to someone higher-up for a yearly evaluation

and review of their performance... except parents. Parents are accountable to no

one, unless their abuses are so blatantly egregious that the police or Child

Protective Services are called in) I have this wishful thinking about setting

up a class in all grade levels, even preschool, and calling it " Emotional

Hygiene " .

It would be geared in age-appropriage ways, but the basic idea is to demonstrate

to children the difference between healthy ways of solving problems and relating

to other people, and unhealthy ways of problem-solving and relating to other

people.

This would be done with short films, and would cover topics like dealing with

bullies, how to be organized and exert self-discipline so you can do homework

efficiently (and have more time for play), and how to handle situations that

come up with friends, how to be a responsible pet-owner, etc.

Each topic would be demonstrated by having actors enacting one or two

emotionally healthy ways to handle this particular issue, and one or two

emotionally abusive, unhealthy ways of dealing with the same issue, and a

discussion period afterward.

In the course of demonstrating various topics, over the years the child would

observe and become aware that screaming at other people, hitting them, pitching

temper tantrums, being manipulative, being negligent, showing favoritism to one

sibling (or pet), and other such behaviors are considered abusive, and that

threatening suicide, performing self-harming acts, beating up on those smaller

than yourself, adults being sexual with children or older children being sexual

with smaller children, etc., are alarmingly abusive and need to be reported *no

matter who is doing these things.*

In other words, I think that the path to awareness and positive change is

through education.

It would take a generation or two, but if every child was taught from pre-school

up that its not OK for adults to hit kids, its not OK for adults (or older kids)

to bully children, its not OK for adults or older kids to have sex with

children, its not OK to neglect to feed children (etc.) and its important to

make sure that children have clean clothes and shoes to wear and for children to

have an education, to make sure children have regular dental care, eye care and

medical care, etc., etc. this awareness would eventually become a cultural norm.

If teaching these concepts became part of the regular school curriculum, I think

that children would be more inclined to report it if they're being abused at

home.

But, this is all just wishful thinking at this point. I realize that my idea of

" Emotional Hygiene " classes skirts very close to the concept of a " Big Brother "

culture, but I think that something along those lines (educating children about

mental health) would do more good than harm.

-Annie

>

>

> I think intense monitoring is an amazing idea, but the problem would

implementing it. Like you said, your nada was so high functioning no one really

knew outside of the immediate family. And if your family was like mine, if I had

told somebody, they'd have thought i was either making it up or was the problem

because she was so good at making things turn out her way, twisting things, and

dowright lying about them. My mother even threatened taking ME to a

psychologist because of my " issues. " In my mind, going to a psychologist would

have been hugely embarrassing. And it also just reiterated that there was

something wrong with me and not her.

>

> My mother was at times physically abusive, but mostly emotionally. I think

some of her 'dislosures' to me about her sex life and things like that were

sexually absuive too, but she would have denied it. I once confronted her (when

I was about 25) about telling me that my dad was impotent when I was 8. She

claims I was 18, not 8. And then I begin to question my own memory at that

point. She's so convincing and so conniving. She did it with everything though.

It's why NO ONE outside of our family knew what she was really like. I couldn't

get help because no one saw a problem. When I got in junior high (7th

grade), my OCD symptoms got reaaally bad. They put me in a school for

emotionally disturbed children and she never let me forget that it was ME who

was disturbed and she 'did all she could' and was a 'good mother.'

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,...I can relate to feeling sickened by this kind of passive aggressive

nonsense.I think my fada was more of a master at this than nada (who tended more

to full on attacks).Right now I can't think of one of fada's favorite quotes

that's quite like your nada's about " the Jesuits " but I know that nauseated

sinking feeling when he'd express horrified outrage at something others do/had

done that was so much like what HE had done to me.And yeah,it always felt like

some sort of passive agressive barb when he said these quotes in that certain

tone,like he kinda intended for it to hit its target,somehow.The target of

course being somehow me.And I think it's hard not to wonder if you *are* being

oversensitive because when they pull this crap it's subtle like you said.But in

your gut you just feel sickened by it.

For me,personally,part of that feeling sickened by it is that it is

nonsense.Wounding nonsense and it feels directed at me.These quotes would get

under my skin because *if only* he was functional and ok and actually meant his

outrage in an informed,clear,adult and healthy way,I could simply agree with and

even admire his ethical stance.But what he was saying was so muddled with his

own sick psychology and he himself was certainly not living his own life as a

father contrary to these things he apparently found so horrifying.So,the

hypocrisy inherent in having *him* quote whatever with outrage along with the

passive aggressive suggestiveness was incredibly galling to me.Not to mention

triggering.

I used to want to respond with a handy rejoinder--but is there

*anything* that would give these types a light bulb moment? I mean,I just don't

think there is--and at any rate I don't think there's anything rational that

would actually stick and hold in their consciousness over time.Irrational

loathing and projecting their own junk onto the Jesuits or the Hare Krishnas or

the Easter Bunny or whatever,yeah,that'll get stuck in their heads because it

works for them.But the rational thought sequence required to achieve an Ah ha!

moment? Not too likely.That's no fun for a BPD and it has no easy

thrill--actually,truly pondering anything they believe is so boring and anyway

it might,uh,make them feel bad...It just feels so much better in the BPD

immediate to damn those Jesuits and lord it over our kid with our muddled denial

of our own behavior and our muddled resentment and muddled passive aggression...

I know that you,on the other hand,have often sincerely pondered the

whys and wherefores of existence and of why we're all here.I know that hasn't

been at all easy for you and that you don't indulge in facile damnings of the

Jesuits and etc to soothe yourself with dysfunctional sensationalism,which I

think is what your nada is doing and what my fada did.I say " soothing " since I

suppose it's an attempt at that although it's really just them fanning the

flames of their own fears and at the same time,in their disordered fear,pulling

a subtle power play on us.I know that you know exactly what a lightbulb moment

or an ah ha moment is because you have had them.But that is because you don't

have a personality disorder like your nada does.

I think it's so hard to grasp the idea that our PD parents are highly

unlikely to ever have a genuine consciousness altering lightbulb moment,no

matter how articulate or piercing we might be in our rejoinders to them.It seems

to me that the most we could achieve with that is to *momentarily* stun or shock

them into silence.But later they will either twist our words--for example into

their dysfunctional need to feed on negative sensationalism,later seeing

whatever we said as an attack in some form--or they will simply forget what we

said and revert right back to where they were before we launched the rejoinder.

I don't think you're being oversensitive at all about this.Of course

it's sickening to hear her say that--because it is.It *is* sickening.But what do

*you* want,? What do you want to have happen if you think of something to

say back to her when she regurgitates this quote about the Jesuits?

Not what you hope might happen.What you *want* to happen.

Do you want mostly to do something in the moment to ease that

justifiably sickened feeling?

And since your nada is very unlikely to have any kind of real ah ha

moment no matter what you say back about that quote,what if you said something

back to her for *you*?

I mean,what would be something to say that is less speaking back to

her and more speaking to your own feelings and honoring them? She's basically

talking to herself anyway with that quote,so what if you bounced it back at her

by speaking to yourself outloud,to remind yourself of how *you* feel about it?

Does that make sense?

Like you could deadpan, " That's sickening. "

And if you manage to get a word in edgewise if she says anything

more,you repeat in a deadpan, " That's sickening. "

You're not saying that to her,though,you're giving vent out loud to your

own feelings.If you say anything more detailed you're verging into possibly

trying to enlighten her.It sounds like maybe you're looking for something to say

that would shut her up? Make her stop bringing up that stupid quote again and

again? But you can't control her or her reactions or what she'll say in the

future.Even if you manage to shut her up now,who's to say she won't do it again

later? I don't think there's a way to control not having that quote lobbed at

you again in the future,so in a way,managing to shut her up now still leaves it

potentially hanging over your head to descend again at some time you can't

determine.In that sense,shutting her up now has no real power in it,you see what

I mean?

But I think that honoring how you yourself feel in the moment does have

power.You can only control yourself.Taking how you feel seriously and giving

vent to it even when you are the only one who really hears it and really knows

what you mean is,I think,the only true control you can have in this situation.

Saying, " That's sickening " might encourage her to keep on spewing and

then you could say (out loud to yourself), " This is making me feel sick " .Like a

mantra of sorts or an incantation to give form to your justified feelings.

But having said all that,it's still unfortunately true for us KOs that

the only way to win is not to play.Because another way to take the wind right

out of those dysfunctional sails is to go, " Uh huh. " Indifferent.Bored.Because

after all what they're saying is nonsense on so many levels.Worthy of a tossed

off " Uh huh " .Worthy of us not caring.Worthy of us not taking it

seriously.Unworthy,really,of our attention.

That " Uh huh " is like your nada is blowing up a dysfunction balloon

and what you're doing is casually reaching over with a pin and poking it.Like

visualizing that dysfunction balloon deflating as you respond with an

indifferent " Uh huh " .Whatever,nada.Two words as a pin prick.And when she blows

up another dysfunction balloon,you deflate it with another bored " Uh huh " .And no

matter what she throws at you to suck you back in,it's " Uh huh " .

I've been doing that as an exercize in my head lately when I remember

some conversations with nada or fada that upset me in the past.I used to rework

them in my head with what I could have said,that might have made the outcome

different.Such as me standing up for myself.But that would have fanned the

flames.Or generally lead to more weirdness and sickness from them later twisting

my words.Or me coming up with that one tranchant rejoinder that would have

blasted their brains open or shut them up.But then there's always more sh*t they

said that needs a retort.And I always feel in these mental reenactments that

they aren't really listening or of they do,they won't later.That they never

really GET IT.

For me personally it feels so much more satisfying when I remember

their nonsense to say to them now in my head, " Uh huh " .Screw you and your

wounding nonsense: " Uh huh " ...Equivalent to them,as adults,telling me that they

honestly believe in Santa Claus.What else can you say back to that but " Uh

huh " .It's ridiculous.It's worthless.

Even when what they say has a grain of truth in it,like it's true that

children are profoundly molded by the experiences they've had by age six and

whether that quote is a line from Shogun or something the Jesuits actually

practiced for good or for ill,it does have truth in it.But coming out of a

nada's mouth,it's dysfunctional.It's twisted with her issues and her agenda.It

is therefore nonsense at that point,whatever it is--even if it's somewhat or

somehow true.It's " Uh huh,nada " worthy.Kind of like a dysfunction balloon full

of nada helium gas and she's speaking in a high pitched rapid babble as you

deflate that balloon.Did you ever do that as a kid,untie a helium balloon and

suck it and then try to talk? I used to do that with my friends at the town fair

and we'd all laugh hysterically to hear us try to talk because whatever we said

came out as a stream of elf like high pitched nonsense.We called it " talking

like jolly leprechauns " .And of course leprechauns don't really exist,so it was

all nonsense.Nadas quoting quotes to blow up their dysfunction balloon is the

same as them sucking on helium and trying to say something coherent.But as not

so jolly leprechauns...The truth of their " point " doesn't exist any more than

leprechauns do or if they believe it what they're saying is as silly as

believing in leprechauns--even when what they're saying is objectively true such

as that it's horrifying and wrong to want to ensnare a child by the time they're

six by brainwashing them to your views.It seems to me that the only truth in

their speech is in how it triggers us and in its reminder to us of what they did

to us when we were developing.Which is OUR truth.That we deserve to honor either

by saying aloud for ourselves that it sickens US or by giving nada's

sensationalizing bull and passive aggressive crap the old " uh huh " heave ho.

Just my two cents lol...

>

> So I just wanted to float this little conversational snippet by you guys and

get some reactions. So my nada has always been very anti-religion especially

organized religion, especially Catholic. Ever since I was little I can remember

that when the subject of Catholics came up she would always say - like a broken

record - about how the Jesuits had a saying about " give me a child till he's age

six and he's mine for life " . She'd say this with a dramatic flair like ooooo,

look how psycho those Jesuits were brainwashing those little kids, oh the

horror!

>

> But here I'd be having felt controlled, smothered, and more brainwashed than I

knew from the beginning hearing her say this...and feeling sick. And I still

feel sick every time she says it. She said it today.

>

> I've decided I want a really good come back next time she says it - something

that will answer the passive-aggressive implication in her statement which is " I

own your ass " . I'd like to say yeah what that saying refers to is a sin,

owning another human being is slavery and wrong. Just something to really

answer the subtle message.

>

> Thoughts? And would this scenario squick any of you guys out or am I being

oversensitive?

>

> Thanks,

>

>

> P.S. - no offense meant to Catholics or Jesuits here...I'm not even sure that

saying was ever said by anybody outside of fiction, it was in Shogun I think.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,...I can relate to feeling sickened by this kind of passive aggressive

nonsense.I think my fada was more of a master at this than nada (who tended more

to full on attacks).Right now I can't think of one of fada's favorite quotes

that's quite like your nada's about " the Jesuits " but I know that nauseated

sinking feeling when he'd express horrified outrage at something others do/had

done that was so much like what HE had done to me.And yeah,it always felt like

some sort of passive agressive barb when he said these quotes in that certain

tone,like he kinda intended for it to hit its target,somehow.The target of

course being somehow me.And I think it's hard not to wonder if you *are* being

oversensitive because when they pull this crap it's subtle like you said.But in

your gut you just feel sickened by it.

For me,personally,part of that feeling sickened by it is that it is

nonsense.Wounding nonsense and it feels directed at me.These quotes would get

under my skin because *if only* he was functional and ok and actually meant his

outrage in an informed,clear,adult and healthy way,I could simply agree with and

even admire his ethical stance.But what he was saying was so muddled with his

own sick psychology and he himself was certainly not living his own life as a

father contrary to these things he apparently found so horrifying.So,the

hypocrisy inherent in having *him* quote whatever with outrage along with the

passive aggressive suggestiveness was incredibly galling to me.Not to mention

triggering.

I used to want to respond with a handy rejoinder--but is there

*anything* that would give these types a light bulb moment? I mean,I just don't

think there is--and at any rate I don't think there's anything rational that

would actually stick and hold in their consciousness over time.Irrational

loathing and projecting their own junk onto the Jesuits or the Hare Krishnas or

the Easter Bunny or whatever,yeah,that'll get stuck in their heads because it

works for them.But the rational thought sequence required to achieve an Ah ha!

moment? Not too likely.That's no fun for a BPD and it has no easy

thrill--actually,truly pondering anything they believe is so boring and anyway

it might,uh,make them feel bad...It just feels so much better in the BPD

immediate to damn those Jesuits and lord it over our kid with our muddled denial

of our own behavior and our muddled resentment and muddled passive aggression...

I know that you,on the other hand,have often sincerely pondered the

whys and wherefores of existence and of why we're all here.I know that hasn't

been at all easy for you and that you don't indulge in facile damnings of the

Jesuits and etc to soothe yourself with dysfunctional sensationalism,which I

think is what your nada is doing and what my fada did.I say " soothing " since I

suppose it's an attempt at that although it's really just them fanning the

flames of their own fears and at the same time,in their disordered fear,pulling

a subtle power play on us.I know that you know exactly what a lightbulb moment

or an ah ha moment is because you have had them.But that is because you don't

have a personality disorder like your nada does.

I think it's so hard to grasp the idea that our PD parents are highly

unlikely to ever have a genuine consciousness altering lightbulb moment,no

matter how articulate or piercing we might be in our rejoinders to them.It seems

to me that the most we could achieve with that is to *momentarily* stun or shock

them into silence.But later they will either twist our words--for example into

their dysfunctional need to feed on negative sensationalism,later seeing

whatever we said as an attack in some form--or they will simply forget what we

said and revert right back to where they were before we launched the rejoinder.

I don't think you're being oversensitive at all about this.Of course

it's sickening to hear her say that--because it is.It *is* sickening.But what do

*you* want,? What do you want to have happen if you think of something to

say back to her when she regurgitates this quote about the Jesuits?

Not what you hope might happen.What you *want* to happen.

Do you want mostly to do something in the moment to ease that

justifiably sickened feeling?

And since your nada is very unlikely to have any kind of real ah ha

moment no matter what you say back about that quote,what if you said something

back to her for *you*?

I mean,what would be something to say that is less speaking back to

her and more speaking to your own feelings and honoring them? She's basically

talking to herself anyway with that quote,so what if you bounced it back at her

by speaking to yourself outloud,to remind yourself of how *you* feel about it?

Does that make sense?

Like you could deadpan, " That's sickening. "

And if you manage to get a word in edgewise if she says anything

more,you repeat in a deadpan, " That's sickening. "

You're not saying that to her,though,you're giving vent out loud to your

own feelings.If you say anything more detailed you're verging into possibly

trying to enlighten her.It sounds like maybe you're looking for something to say

that would shut her up? Make her stop bringing up that stupid quote again and

again? But you can't control her or her reactions or what she'll say in the

future.Even if you manage to shut her up now,who's to say she won't do it again

later? I don't think there's a way to control not having that quote lobbed at

you again in the future,so in a way,managing to shut her up now still leaves it

potentially hanging over your head to descend again at some time you can't

determine.In that sense,shutting her up now has no real power in it,you see what

I mean?

But I think that honoring how you yourself feel in the moment does have

power.You can only control yourself.Taking how you feel seriously and giving

vent to it even when you are the only one who really hears it and really knows

what you mean is,I think,the only true control you can have in this situation.

Saying, " That's sickening " might encourage her to keep on spewing and

then you could say (out loud to yourself), " This is making me feel sick " .Like a

mantra of sorts or an incantation to give form to your justified feelings.

But having said all that,it's still unfortunately true for us KOs that

the only way to win is not to play.Because another way to take the wind right

out of those dysfunctional sails is to go, " Uh huh. " Indifferent.Bored.Because

after all what they're saying is nonsense on so many levels.Worthy of a tossed

off " Uh huh " .Worthy of us not caring.Worthy of us not taking it

seriously.Unworthy,really,of our attention.

That " Uh huh " is like your nada is blowing up a dysfunction balloon

and what you're doing is casually reaching over with a pin and poking it.Like

visualizing that dysfunction balloon deflating as you respond with an

indifferent " Uh huh " .Whatever,nada.Two words as a pin prick.And when she blows

up another dysfunction balloon,you deflate it with another bored " Uh huh " .And no

matter what she throws at you to suck you back in,it's " Uh huh " .

I've been doing that as an exercize in my head lately when I remember

some conversations with nada or fada that upset me in the past.I used to rework

them in my head with what I could have said,that might have made the outcome

different.Such as me standing up for myself.But that would have fanned the

flames.Or generally lead to more weirdness and sickness from them later twisting

my words.Or me coming up with that one tranchant rejoinder that would have

blasted their brains open or shut them up.But then there's always more sh*t they

said that needs a retort.And I always feel in these mental reenactments that

they aren't really listening or of they do,they won't later.That they never

really GET IT.

For me personally it feels so much more satisfying when I remember

their nonsense to say to them now in my head, " Uh huh " .Screw you and your

wounding nonsense: " Uh huh " ...Equivalent to them,as adults,telling me that they

honestly believe in Santa Claus.What else can you say back to that but " Uh

huh " .It's ridiculous.It's worthless.

Even when what they say has a grain of truth in it,like it's true that

children are profoundly molded by the experiences they've had by age six and

whether that quote is a line from Shogun or something the Jesuits actually

practiced for good or for ill,it does have truth in it.But coming out of a

nada's mouth,it's dysfunctional.It's twisted with her issues and her agenda.It

is therefore nonsense at that point,whatever it is--even if it's somewhat or

somehow true.It's " Uh huh,nada " worthy.Kind of like a dysfunction balloon full

of nada helium gas and she's speaking in a high pitched rapid babble as you

deflate that balloon.Did you ever do that as a kid,untie a helium balloon and

suck it and then try to talk? I used to do that with my friends at the town fair

and we'd all laugh hysterically to hear us try to talk because whatever we said

came out as a stream of elf like high pitched nonsense.We called it " talking

like jolly leprechauns " .And of course leprechauns don't really exist,so it was

all nonsense.Nadas quoting quotes to blow up their dysfunction balloon is the

same as them sucking on helium and trying to say something coherent.But as not

so jolly leprechauns...The truth of their " point " doesn't exist any more than

leprechauns do or if they believe it what they're saying is as silly as

believing in leprechauns--even when what they're saying is objectively true such

as that it's horrifying and wrong to want to ensnare a child by the time they're

six by brainwashing them to your views.It seems to me that the only truth in

their speech is in how it triggers us and in its reminder to us of what they did

to us when we were developing.Which is OUR truth.That we deserve to honor either

by saying aloud for ourselves that it sickens US or by giving nada's

sensationalizing bull and passive aggressive crap the old " uh huh " heave ho.

Just my two cents lol...

>

> So I just wanted to float this little conversational snippet by you guys and

get some reactions. So my nada has always been very anti-religion especially

organized religion, especially Catholic. Ever since I was little I can remember

that when the subject of Catholics came up she would always say - like a broken

record - about how the Jesuits had a saying about " give me a child till he's age

six and he's mine for life " . She'd say this with a dramatic flair like ooooo,

look how psycho those Jesuits were brainwashing those little kids, oh the

horror!

>

> But here I'd be having felt controlled, smothered, and more brainwashed than I

knew from the beginning hearing her say this...and feeling sick. And I still

feel sick every time she says it. She said it today.

>

> I've decided I want a really good come back next time she says it - something

that will answer the passive-aggressive implication in her statement which is " I

own your ass " . I'd like to say yeah what that saying refers to is a sin,

owning another human being is slavery and wrong. Just something to really

answer the subtle message.

>

> Thoughts? And would this scenario squick any of you guys out or am I being

oversensitive?

>

> Thanks,

>

>

> P.S. - no offense meant to Catholics or Jesuits here...I'm not even sure that

saying was ever said by anybody outside of fiction, it was in Shogun I think.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,...I can relate to feeling sickened by this kind of passive aggressive

nonsense.I think my fada was more of a master at this than nada (who tended more

to full on attacks).Right now I can't think of one of fada's favorite quotes

that's quite like your nada's about " the Jesuits " but I know that nauseated

sinking feeling when he'd express horrified outrage at something others do/had

done that was so much like what HE had done to me.And yeah,it always felt like

some sort of passive agressive barb when he said these quotes in that certain

tone,like he kinda intended for it to hit its target,somehow.The target of

course being somehow me.And I think it's hard not to wonder if you *are* being

oversensitive because when they pull this crap it's subtle like you said.But in

your gut you just feel sickened by it.

For me,personally,part of that feeling sickened by it is that it is

nonsense.Wounding nonsense and it feels directed at me.These quotes would get

under my skin because *if only* he was functional and ok and actually meant his

outrage in an informed,clear,adult and healthy way,I could simply agree with and

even admire his ethical stance.But what he was saying was so muddled with his

own sick psychology and he himself was certainly not living his own life as a

father contrary to these things he apparently found so horrifying.So,the

hypocrisy inherent in having *him* quote whatever with outrage along with the

passive aggressive suggestiveness was incredibly galling to me.Not to mention

triggering.

I used to want to respond with a handy rejoinder--but is there

*anything* that would give these types a light bulb moment? I mean,I just don't

think there is--and at any rate I don't think there's anything rational that

would actually stick and hold in their consciousness over time.Irrational

loathing and projecting their own junk onto the Jesuits or the Hare Krishnas or

the Easter Bunny or whatever,yeah,that'll get stuck in their heads because it

works for them.But the rational thought sequence required to achieve an Ah ha!

moment? Not too likely.That's no fun for a BPD and it has no easy

thrill--actually,truly pondering anything they believe is so boring and anyway

it might,uh,make them feel bad...It just feels so much better in the BPD

immediate to damn those Jesuits and lord it over our kid with our muddled denial

of our own behavior and our muddled resentment and muddled passive aggression...

I know that you,on the other hand,have often sincerely pondered the

whys and wherefores of existence and of why we're all here.I know that hasn't

been at all easy for you and that you don't indulge in facile damnings of the

Jesuits and etc to soothe yourself with dysfunctional sensationalism,which I

think is what your nada is doing and what my fada did.I say " soothing " since I

suppose it's an attempt at that although it's really just them fanning the

flames of their own fears and at the same time,in their disordered fear,pulling

a subtle power play on us.I know that you know exactly what a lightbulb moment

or an ah ha moment is because you have had them.But that is because you don't

have a personality disorder like your nada does.

I think it's so hard to grasp the idea that our PD parents are highly

unlikely to ever have a genuine consciousness altering lightbulb moment,no

matter how articulate or piercing we might be in our rejoinders to them.It seems

to me that the most we could achieve with that is to *momentarily* stun or shock

them into silence.But later they will either twist our words--for example into

their dysfunctional need to feed on negative sensationalism,later seeing

whatever we said as an attack in some form--or they will simply forget what we

said and revert right back to where they were before we launched the rejoinder.

I don't think you're being oversensitive at all about this.Of course

it's sickening to hear her say that--because it is.It *is* sickening.But what do

*you* want,? What do you want to have happen if you think of something to

say back to her when she regurgitates this quote about the Jesuits?

Not what you hope might happen.What you *want* to happen.

Do you want mostly to do something in the moment to ease that

justifiably sickened feeling?

And since your nada is very unlikely to have any kind of real ah ha

moment no matter what you say back about that quote,what if you said something

back to her for *you*?

I mean,what would be something to say that is less speaking back to

her and more speaking to your own feelings and honoring them? She's basically

talking to herself anyway with that quote,so what if you bounced it back at her

by speaking to yourself outloud,to remind yourself of how *you* feel about it?

Does that make sense?

Like you could deadpan, " That's sickening. "

And if you manage to get a word in edgewise if she says anything

more,you repeat in a deadpan, " That's sickening. "

You're not saying that to her,though,you're giving vent out loud to your

own feelings.If you say anything more detailed you're verging into possibly

trying to enlighten her.It sounds like maybe you're looking for something to say

that would shut her up? Make her stop bringing up that stupid quote again and

again? But you can't control her or her reactions or what she'll say in the

future.Even if you manage to shut her up now,who's to say she won't do it again

later? I don't think there's a way to control not having that quote lobbed at

you again in the future,so in a way,managing to shut her up now still leaves it

potentially hanging over your head to descend again at some time you can't

determine.In that sense,shutting her up now has no real power in it,you see what

I mean?

But I think that honoring how you yourself feel in the moment does have

power.You can only control yourself.Taking how you feel seriously and giving

vent to it even when you are the only one who really hears it and really knows

what you mean is,I think,the only true control you can have in this situation.

Saying, " That's sickening " might encourage her to keep on spewing and

then you could say (out loud to yourself), " This is making me feel sick " .Like a

mantra of sorts or an incantation to give form to your justified feelings.

But having said all that,it's still unfortunately true for us KOs that

the only way to win is not to play.Because another way to take the wind right

out of those dysfunctional sails is to go, " Uh huh. " Indifferent.Bored.Because

after all what they're saying is nonsense on so many levels.Worthy of a tossed

off " Uh huh " .Worthy of us not caring.Worthy of us not taking it

seriously.Unworthy,really,of our attention.

That " Uh huh " is like your nada is blowing up a dysfunction balloon

and what you're doing is casually reaching over with a pin and poking it.Like

visualizing that dysfunction balloon deflating as you respond with an

indifferent " Uh huh " .Whatever,nada.Two words as a pin prick.And when she blows

up another dysfunction balloon,you deflate it with another bored " Uh huh " .And no

matter what she throws at you to suck you back in,it's " Uh huh " .

I've been doing that as an exercize in my head lately when I remember

some conversations with nada or fada that upset me in the past.I used to rework

them in my head with what I could have said,that might have made the outcome

different.Such as me standing up for myself.But that would have fanned the

flames.Or generally lead to more weirdness and sickness from them later twisting

my words.Or me coming up with that one tranchant rejoinder that would have

blasted their brains open or shut them up.But then there's always more sh*t they

said that needs a retort.And I always feel in these mental reenactments that

they aren't really listening or of they do,they won't later.That they never

really GET IT.

For me personally it feels so much more satisfying when I remember

their nonsense to say to them now in my head, " Uh huh " .Screw you and your

wounding nonsense: " Uh huh " ...Equivalent to them,as adults,telling me that they

honestly believe in Santa Claus.What else can you say back to that but " Uh

huh " .It's ridiculous.It's worthless.

Even when what they say has a grain of truth in it,like it's true that

children are profoundly molded by the experiences they've had by age six and

whether that quote is a line from Shogun or something the Jesuits actually

practiced for good or for ill,it does have truth in it.But coming out of a

nada's mouth,it's dysfunctional.It's twisted with her issues and her agenda.It

is therefore nonsense at that point,whatever it is--even if it's somewhat or

somehow true.It's " Uh huh,nada " worthy.Kind of like a dysfunction balloon full

of nada helium gas and she's speaking in a high pitched rapid babble as you

deflate that balloon.Did you ever do that as a kid,untie a helium balloon and

suck it and then try to talk? I used to do that with my friends at the town fair

and we'd all laugh hysterically to hear us try to talk because whatever we said

came out as a stream of elf like high pitched nonsense.We called it " talking

like jolly leprechauns " .And of course leprechauns don't really exist,so it was

all nonsense.Nadas quoting quotes to blow up their dysfunction balloon is the

same as them sucking on helium and trying to say something coherent.But as not

so jolly leprechauns...The truth of their " point " doesn't exist any more than

leprechauns do or if they believe it what they're saying is as silly as

believing in leprechauns--even when what they're saying is objectively true such

as that it's horrifying and wrong to want to ensnare a child by the time they're

six by brainwashing them to your views.It seems to me that the only truth in

their speech is in how it triggers us and in its reminder to us of what they did

to us when we were developing.Which is OUR truth.That we deserve to honor either

by saying aloud for ourselves that it sickens US or by giving nada's

sensationalizing bull and passive aggressive crap the old " uh huh " heave ho.

Just my two cents lol...

>

> So I just wanted to float this little conversational snippet by you guys and

get some reactions. So my nada has always been very anti-religion especially

organized religion, especially Catholic. Ever since I was little I can remember

that when the subject of Catholics came up she would always say - like a broken

record - about how the Jesuits had a saying about " give me a child till he's age

six and he's mine for life " . She'd say this with a dramatic flair like ooooo,

look how psycho those Jesuits were brainwashing those little kids, oh the

horror!

>

> But here I'd be having felt controlled, smothered, and more brainwashed than I

knew from the beginning hearing her say this...and feeling sick. And I still

feel sick every time she says it. She said it today.

>

> I've decided I want a really good come back next time she says it - something

that will answer the passive-aggressive implication in her statement which is " I

own your ass " . I'd like to say yeah what that saying refers to is a sin,

owning another human being is slavery and wrong. Just something to really

answer the subtle message.

>

> Thoughts? And would this scenario squick any of you guys out or am I being

oversensitive?

>

> Thanks,

>

>

> P.S. - no offense meant to Catholics or Jesuits here...I'm not even sure that

saying was ever said by anybody outside of fiction, it was in Shogun I think.

>

[Guest guest]

I think if someone goes to therapy and has BPD and has children, then the

therapist has a duty to follow through with therapy with the children as well

and help them cope. I have my doubts at whether a BPD mother can be a good

mother, but I guess it happens...somewhere. I think if the BPD is serious about

getting help, is honest, and committed to therapy, maybe then they could. But

then again, if they could do all of those things, would they be BPD?

Such a roller coaster of confusion.

[Guest guest]

I think if someone goes to therapy and has BPD and has children, then the

therapist has a duty to follow through with therapy with the children as well

and help them cope. I have my doubts at whether a BPD mother can be a good

mother, but I guess it happens...somewhere. I think if the BPD is serious about

getting help, is honest, and committed to therapy, maybe then they could. But

then again, if they could do all of those things, would they be BPD?

Such a roller coaster of confusion.

[Guest guest]

I think if someone goes to therapy and has BPD and has children, then the

therapist has a duty to follow through with therapy with the children as well

and help them cope. I have my doubts at whether a BPD mother can be a good

mother, but I guess it happens...somewhere. I think if the BPD is serious about

getting help, is honest, and committed to therapy, maybe then they could. But

then again, if they could do all of those things, would they be BPD?

Such a roller coaster of confusion.