Re: BPD *is* grounds for termination of parental rights in 36 states

[Guest guest]

I think that is awesome that more than half of the US states are making it more

accessible for children to be rescued from emotionally abusive

personality-disordered parents because personality disorder is recognized as a

severe mental illness!! That is very heartening.

Its about time that emotional abuse and emotional neglect are recognized as

being as dangerous and destructive to children as physical abuse and neglect.

These current laws should also help older children who wish to petition for

emancipation or " divorce " from abusive parents.

I agree with you that there are some laws that should be standardized from state

to state, and a code defining what constitutes child abuse should be one of

them, as long as emotional abuse and mental illness on the part of the parent is

included. (I also think that the legal age of consent should be standardized at

18; in the US it ranges between 16 and 18 depending on the state. In Mexico, in

some areas its as low as 12, if you can believe it.)

Another key piece of the puzzle is to encourage everyone to think of himself or

herself as a " mandated reporter " and become involved when child abuse, including

emotional abuse, is suspected.

Thanks for sharing that, ; I too think its a step in the right

direction for children's rights.

-Annie

>

> While doing some research on child abuse law in my specific state I came

across some suprising (to me lol) information: Parental mental

illness/deficiency--including BPD-- actually *is* grounds for termination of

parental rights in most states.

>

> In some states it is not,like New Mexico and Michigan.But in Arizona it

is,so if you were born just on the other side of the state line,hey kid,you're

outta luck.I really think there needs to be a national standard for what would

constitute terminating parental rights since the laws vary (IMHO unreasonably)

from state to state.

>

> For example,in Nebraska:

>

> " Subsection (5) of this section authorizing termination of

parental rights for mental illness or mental deficiency means only those mental

illnesses or mental deficiencies which render the parents unable to discharge

their parental responsibilities. In re Interest of B. et al., 258 Neb.

545, 604 N.W.2d 405 (2000).

>

> Under subsection (5) of this section, when a natural parent suffers from a

mental deficiency and cannot be rehabilitated within a reasonable period of

time, the best interests of the child require that a final disposition be made

without delay. A " mental deficiency " , as used in subsection (5) of this section,

includes an impairment in capacity such that a parent is unable to profit from

instruction and acquire parenting skills. Under subsection (5) of this section,

the State must show that termination of parental rights is in the best interests

of the children. In re Interest of Natasha H. & Sierra H., 258 Neb. 131, 602

N.W.2d 439 (1999).

>

> When a natural parent suffers from a mental deficiency and cannot be

rehabilitated within a reasonable period of time, the best interests of the

children require that a final disposition be made without delay. In re Interest

of D.A.B. and J.B., 240 Neb. 653, 483 N.W.2d 550 (1992).

>

> A borderline personality disorder is a mental illness or deficiency for

purposes of statute. In re Interest of B.M., 239 Neb. 292, 475 N.W.2d 909 (1991 "

>

> http://law.justia.com/nebraska/codes/s43index/s4302092000.html

>

> Or this case from Alaska, " Termination of the parental rights of a

mother with Borderline Personality Disorder and Chronic Depression who was

absent at trial and was found to have deliberately delayed trial and not to have

remedied the causes and conditions that resulted in substantial risk of harm to

her daughter " ...Needs to be read to be believed--the " mother " also sounds like a

narcissist (hint: she claimed to be on vacation in Mexico at the time of the

trial as the " reason " for her lack of attendance):

>

> http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/3/418

>

> I was personally heartened to learn that children in the United States

are being rescued from the predations of their personality disordered

" parents " .Perhaps some progress is being made after all.In one case in Alabama

which I didn't save and now annoyingly can't find,the judge ruled that the

mother's occasional displays of affection towards her children and her habit of

giving them cheap gifts didn't make up for her severe parenting deficits and

ruled to have her children removed from her " care " permanently.Alabama is

another state that recognizes mental illness as grounds for termination.

>

> Perhaps some of you here would disagree,since totally and

permanently terminating parental rights is so final and radical.I wish so

fervently myself that I had been removed from my " home " as a child; that my case

could have come up in the courtroom of a judge who got why my nada would never

be able to parent me.But in my case,I would have been better off: I had an

infanticidal Witch nada.That's material for debate,though: How bad does it have

to be for a nada/fada to permanently lose their rights to their child? I'm

interested in your thoughts on the subject if anyone wants to chime in.But I'm

not wanting to start a contentious debate!!!!

>

> At any rate,here is another link to a website that has the grounds

for termination of parental rights by state and which ones include parental

mental illness--scroll down to the bottom of the page then click on the state

you're interested in:

>

> http://deltabravo.net/custody/termination.php

>

>

> --

>

[Guest guest]

I think that is awesome that more than half of the US states are making it more

accessible for children to be rescued from emotionally abusive

personality-disordered parents because personality disorder is recognized as a

severe mental illness!! That is very heartening.

Its about time that emotional abuse and emotional neglect are recognized as

being as dangerous and destructive to children as physical abuse and neglect.

These current laws should also help older children who wish to petition for

emancipation or " divorce " from abusive parents.

I agree with you that there are some laws that should be standardized from state

to state, and a code defining what constitutes child abuse should be one of

them, as long as emotional abuse and mental illness on the part of the parent is

included. (I also think that the legal age of consent should be standardized at

18; in the US it ranges between 16 and 18 depending on the state. In Mexico, in

some areas its as low as 12, if you can believe it.)

Another key piece of the puzzle is to encourage everyone to think of himself or

herself as a " mandated reporter " and become involved when child abuse, including

emotional abuse, is suspected.

Thanks for sharing that, ; I too think its a step in the right

direction for children's rights.

-Annie

>

> While doing some research on child abuse law in my specific state I came

across some suprising (to me lol) information: Parental mental

illness/deficiency--including BPD-- actually *is* grounds for termination of

parental rights in most states.

>

> In some states it is not,like New Mexico and Michigan.But in Arizona it

is,so if you were born just on the other side of the state line,hey kid,you're

outta luck.I really think there needs to be a national standard for what would

constitute terminating parental rights since the laws vary (IMHO unreasonably)

from state to state.

>

> For example,in Nebraska:

>

> " Subsection (5) of this section authorizing termination of

parental rights for mental illness or mental deficiency means only those mental

illnesses or mental deficiencies which render the parents unable to discharge

their parental responsibilities. In re Interest of B. et al., 258 Neb.

545, 604 N.W.2d 405 (2000).

>

> Under subsection (5) of this section, when a natural parent suffers from a

mental deficiency and cannot be rehabilitated within a reasonable period of

time, the best interests of the child require that a final disposition be made

without delay. A " mental deficiency " , as used in subsection (5) of this section,

includes an impairment in capacity such that a parent is unable to profit from

instruction and acquire parenting skills. Under subsection (5) of this section,

the State must show that termination of parental rights is in the best interests

of the children. In re Interest of Natasha H. & Sierra H., 258 Neb. 131, 602

N.W.2d 439 (1999).

>

> When a natural parent suffers from a mental deficiency and cannot be

rehabilitated within a reasonable period of time, the best interests of the

children require that a final disposition be made without delay. In re Interest

of D.A.B. and J.B., 240 Neb. 653, 483 N.W.2d 550 (1992).

>

> A borderline personality disorder is a mental illness or deficiency for

purposes of statute. In re Interest of B.M., 239 Neb. 292, 475 N.W.2d 909 (1991 "

>

> http://law.justia.com/nebraska/codes/s43index/s4302092000.html

>

> Or this case from Alaska, " Termination of the parental rights of a

mother with Borderline Personality Disorder and Chronic Depression who was

absent at trial and was found to have deliberately delayed trial and not to have

remedied the causes and conditions that resulted in substantial risk of harm to

her daughter " ...Needs to be read to be believed--the " mother " also sounds like a

narcissist (hint: she claimed to be on vacation in Mexico at the time of the

trial as the " reason " for her lack of attendance):

>

> http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/3/418

>

> I was personally heartened to learn that children in the United States

are being rescued from the predations of their personality disordered

" parents " .Perhaps some progress is being made after all.In one case in Alabama

which I didn't save and now annoyingly can't find,the judge ruled that the

mother's occasional displays of affection towards her children and her habit of

giving them cheap gifts didn't make up for her severe parenting deficits and

ruled to have her children removed from her " care " permanently.Alabama is

another state that recognizes mental illness as grounds for termination.

>

> Perhaps some of you here would disagree,since totally and

permanently terminating parental rights is so final and radical.I wish so

fervently myself that I had been removed from my " home " as a child; that my case

could have come up in the courtroom of a judge who got why my nada would never

be able to parent me.But in my case,I would have been better off: I had an

infanticidal Witch nada.That's material for debate,though: How bad does it have

to be for a nada/fada to permanently lose their rights to their child? I'm

interested in your thoughts on the subject if anyone wants to chime in.But I'm

not wanting to start a contentious debate!!!!

>

> At any rate,here is another link to a website that has the grounds

for termination of parental rights by state and which ones include parental

mental illness--scroll down to the bottom of the page then click on the state

you're interested in:

>

> http://deltabravo.net/custody/termination.php

>

>

> --

>

[Guest guest]

I think that is awesome that more than half of the US states are making it more

accessible for children to be rescued from emotionally abusive

personality-disordered parents because personality disorder is recognized as a

severe mental illness!! That is very heartening.

Its about time that emotional abuse and emotional neglect are recognized as

being as dangerous and destructive to children as physical abuse and neglect.

These current laws should also help older children who wish to petition for

emancipation or " divorce " from abusive parents.

I agree with you that there are some laws that should be standardized from state

to state, and a code defining what constitutes child abuse should be one of

them, as long as emotional abuse and mental illness on the part of the parent is

included. (I also think that the legal age of consent should be standardized at

18; in the US it ranges between 16 and 18 depending on the state. In Mexico, in

some areas its as low as 12, if you can believe it.)

Another key piece of the puzzle is to encourage everyone to think of himself or

herself as a " mandated reporter " and become involved when child abuse, including

emotional abuse, is suspected.

Thanks for sharing that, ; I too think its a step in the right

direction for children's rights.

-Annie

>

> While doing some research on child abuse law in my specific state I came

across some suprising (to me lol) information: Parental mental

illness/deficiency--including BPD-- actually *is* grounds for termination of

parental rights in most states.

>

> In some states it is not,like New Mexico and Michigan.But in Arizona it

is,so if you were born just on the other side of the state line,hey kid,you're

outta luck.I really think there needs to be a national standard for what would

constitute terminating parental rights since the laws vary (IMHO unreasonably)

from state to state.

>

> For example,in Nebraska:

>

> " Subsection (5) of this section authorizing termination of

parental rights for mental illness or mental deficiency means only those mental

illnesses or mental deficiencies which render the parents unable to discharge

their parental responsibilities. In re Interest of B. et al., 258 Neb.

545, 604 N.W.2d 405 (2000).

>

> Under subsection (5) of this section, when a natural parent suffers from a

mental deficiency and cannot be rehabilitated within a reasonable period of

time, the best interests of the child require that a final disposition be made

without delay. A " mental deficiency " , as used in subsection (5) of this section,

includes an impairment in capacity such that a parent is unable to profit from

instruction and acquire parenting skills. Under subsection (5) of this section,

the State must show that termination of parental rights is in the best interests

of the children. In re Interest of Natasha H. & Sierra H., 258 Neb. 131, 602

N.W.2d 439 (1999).

>

> When a natural parent suffers from a mental deficiency and cannot be

rehabilitated within a reasonable period of time, the best interests of the

children require that a final disposition be made without delay. In re Interest

of D.A.B. and J.B., 240 Neb. 653, 483 N.W.2d 550 (1992).

>

> A borderline personality disorder is a mental illness or deficiency for

purposes of statute. In re Interest of B.M., 239 Neb. 292, 475 N.W.2d 909 (1991 "

>

> http://law.justia.com/nebraska/codes/s43index/s4302092000.html

>

> Or this case from Alaska, " Termination of the parental rights of a

mother with Borderline Personality Disorder and Chronic Depression who was

absent at trial and was found to have deliberately delayed trial and not to have

remedied the causes and conditions that resulted in substantial risk of harm to

her daughter " ...Needs to be read to be believed--the " mother " also sounds like a

narcissist (hint: she claimed to be on vacation in Mexico at the time of the

trial as the " reason " for her lack of attendance):

>

> http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/3/418

>

> I was personally heartened to learn that children in the United States

are being rescued from the predations of their personality disordered

" parents " .Perhaps some progress is being made after all.In one case in Alabama

which I didn't save and now annoyingly can't find,the judge ruled that the

mother's occasional displays of affection towards her children and her habit of

giving them cheap gifts didn't make up for her severe parenting deficits and

ruled to have her children removed from her " care " permanently.Alabama is

another state that recognizes mental illness as grounds for termination.

>

> Perhaps some of you here would disagree,since totally and

permanently terminating parental rights is so final and radical.I wish so

fervently myself that I had been removed from my " home " as a child; that my case

could have come up in the courtroom of a judge who got why my nada would never

be able to parent me.But in my case,I would have been better off: I had an

infanticidal Witch nada.That's material for debate,though: How bad does it have

to be for a nada/fada to permanently lose their rights to their child? I'm

interested in your thoughts on the subject if anyone wants to chime in.But I'm

not wanting to start a contentious debate!!!!

>

> At any rate,here is another link to a website that has the grounds

for termination of parental rights by state and which ones include parental

mental illness--scroll down to the bottom of the page then click on the state

you're interested in:

>

> http://deltabravo.net/custody/termination.php

>

>

> --

>

[Guest guest]

thanks for the information!

that is great to know. I clicked on NC and I am not sure how to read the chart,

some of the things have X's by them and some don't...I am sure the ones that

don't have X's by them are grounds because they are things like 'sexual abuse',

'failure to maintain contact' etc, so I am not sure if I am reading the chart

right. Either they think that sexual abuse is grounds for termination, or they

don't, I am pretty confused by this chart.

I guess in all these cases the parent was diagnosed prior to the court hearing

or whatever, I wonder what they do in cases where there is no diagnoses (and

never will be since the bpd is such a huckster at fooling people...she fooled me

for months and months)

>

> While doing some research on child abuse law in my specific state I came

across some suprising (to me lol) information: Parental mental

illness/deficiency--including BPD-- actually *is* grounds for termination of

parental rights in most states.

>

> In some states it is not,like New Mexico and Michigan.But in Arizona it

is,so if you were born just on the other side of the state line,hey kid,you're

outta luck.I really think there needs to be a national standard for what would

constitute terminating parental rights since the laws vary (IMHO unreasonably)

from state to state.

>

> For example,in Nebraska:

>

> " Subsection (5) of this section authorizing termination of

parental rights for mental illness or mental deficiency means only those mental

illnesses or mental deficiencies which render the parents unable to discharge

their parental responsibilities. In re Interest of B. et al., 258 Neb.

545, 604 N.W.2d 405 (2000).

>

> Under subsection (5) of this section, when a natural parent suffers from a

mental deficiency and cannot be rehabilitated within a reasonable period of

time, the best interests of the child require that a final disposition be made

without delay. A " mental deficiency " , as used in subsection (5) of this section,

includes an impairment in capacity such that a parent is unable to profit from

instruction and acquire parenting skills. Under subsection (5) of this section,

the State must show that termination of parental rights is in the best interests

of the children. In re Interest of Natasha H. & Sierra H., 258 Neb. 131, 602

N.W.2d 439 (1999).

>

> When a natural parent suffers from a mental deficiency and cannot be

rehabilitated within a reasonable period of time, the best interests of the

children require that a final disposition be made without delay. In re Interest

of D.A.B. and J.B., 240 Neb. 653, 483 N.W.2d 550 (1992).

>

> A borderline personality disorder is a mental illness or deficiency for

purposes of statute. In re Interest of B.M., 239 Neb. 292, 475 N.W.2d 909 (1991 "

>

> http://law.justia.com/nebraska/codes/s43index/s4302092000.html

>

> Or this case from Alaska, " Termination of the parental rights of a

mother with Borderline Personality Disorder and Chronic Depression who was

absent at trial and was found to have deliberately delayed trial and not to have

remedied the causes and conditions that resulted in substantial risk of harm to

her daughter " ...Needs to be read to be believed--the " mother " also sounds like a

narcissist (hint: she claimed to be on vacation in Mexico at the time of the

trial as the " reason " for her lack of attendance):

>

> http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/3/418

>

> I was personally heartened to learn that children in the United States

are being rescued from the predations of their personality disordered

" parents " .Perhaps some progress is being made after all.In one case in Alabama

which I didn't save and now annoyingly can't find,the judge ruled that the

mother's occasional displays of affection towards her children and her habit of

giving them cheap gifts didn't make up for her severe parenting deficits and

ruled to have her children removed from her " care " permanently.Alabama is

another state that recognizes mental illness as grounds for termination.

>

> Perhaps some of you here would disagree,since totally and

permanently terminating parental rights is so final and radical.I wish so

fervently myself that I had been removed from my " home " as a child; that my case

could have come up in the courtroom of a judge who got why my nada would never

be able to parent me.But in my case,I would have been better off: I had an

infanticidal Witch nada.That's material for debate,though: How bad does it have

to be for a nada/fada to permanently lose their rights to their child? I'm

interested in your thoughts on the subject if anyone wants to chime in.But I'm

not wanting to start a contentious debate!!!!

>

> At any rate,here is another link to a website that has the grounds

for termination of parental rights by state and which ones include parental

mental illness--scroll down to the bottom of the page then click on the state

you're interested in:

>

> http://deltabravo.net/custody/termination.php

>

>

> --

>

[Guest guest]

Holly,

I just wanted to chime in that you absolutely did the right thing for your

siblings and I know how hard that must have been. I took in both my younger

siblings as early teenagers to try to help them get away from our Nada. I know

there isn't much comfort in doing the right thing if it still doesn't help, but

I still wanted to add my support.

As for the law and BPD it seems to get fuzzier every day for me as I am

*trained* to be a mental health professional. It scares me to think I could be

in a place to advocate for children in situations like the ones we were all in

and not be able to " prove " abusive behaviors. I really hope that not only the

laws but the professionals in these cases become more adept at handling these

situations.

Riah

> > >

> > > ,

> > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my four

> > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that makes

> > it

> > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for the

> > public.

> > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard to

> > prove

> > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > >

> > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Holly,

I just wanted to chime in that you absolutely did the right thing for your

siblings and I know how hard that must have been. I took in both my younger

siblings as early teenagers to try to help them get away from our Nada. I know

there isn't much comfort in doing the right thing if it still doesn't help, but

I still wanted to add my support.

As for the law and BPD it seems to get fuzzier every day for me as I am

*trained* to be a mental health professional. It scares me to think I could be

in a place to advocate for children in situations like the ones we were all in

and not be able to " prove " abusive behaviors. I really hope that not only the

laws but the professionals in these cases become more adept at handling these

situations.

Riah

> > >

> > > ,

> > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my four

> > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that makes

> > it

> > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for the

> > public.

> > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard to

> > prove

> > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > >

> > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree you did a great thing Holly. Even if CPS doesn't do anything right away,

at least they KNOW about them there, and hopefully your siblings will get a VA

(victims advocate) that can help them out.

In my state (WA) it was explained to me (by cops when they were trying to charge

her with child abuse when someone called the cops on her once) that my nada was

NOT abusing me unless she " hit with a closed fist " or " left lasting marks " .

Since she was never physically violent with me (she would break

windows/doors/possessions but never layed a hand on me) I was obviously with a

competent mother!

I hate that the abuse she put me through is not legally abuse. The things she

said to me... no one, especially not a child, should have to go through that.

Kids aren't DOGS (i call my dogs names sometimes, lol) and are actually very

fragile in my opinion. Sometimes I used to wish she WOULD beat me just so I

could have a real injury, a real " reason " to why I was suicidal and depressed.

Eventually this desire led to me hurting myself physically.

Casey

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my four

> > > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that makes

> > > it

> > > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for the

> > > public.

> > > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard to

> > > prove

> > > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > > >

> > > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I agree you did a great thing Holly. Even if CPS doesn't do anything right away,

at least they KNOW about them there, and hopefully your siblings will get a VA

(victims advocate) that can help them out.

In my state (WA) it was explained to me (by cops when they were trying to charge

her with child abuse when someone called the cops on her once) that my nada was

NOT abusing me unless she " hit with a closed fist " or " left lasting marks " .

Since she was never physically violent with me (she would break

windows/doors/possessions but never layed a hand on me) I was obviously with a

competent mother!

I hate that the abuse she put me through is not legally abuse. The things she

said to me... no one, especially not a child, should have to go through that.

Kids aren't DOGS (i call my dogs names sometimes, lol) and are actually very

fragile in my opinion. Sometimes I used to wish she WOULD beat me just so I

could have a real injury, a real " reason " to why I was suicidal and depressed.

Eventually this desire led to me hurting myself physically.

Casey

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my four

> > > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that makes

> > > it

> > > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for the

> > > public.

> > > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard to

> > > prove

> > > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > > >

> > > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Riah,

Thanks for the reassurance It's been a quiet dream of mine to take in my

four little siblings (currently ages 12-7) to get them away from fada. Might

never happen, but I like to dream. I have an older little brother, 21, who's

married now, and when I went NC, he was acting a lot like fada. Feel sorry

for his new wife A family friend says that he's doing much better now

that he's living on his own, but I'll believe it when I see it.

And don't you just hate the inability to " prove " emotional abuse? Someone's

perspective of the issue could just as easily perceive it as within the

" normal " range of behavior for a parent. Part of me is thinking about

getting a second masters after my MLIS, in something mental health related,

to try to make sense of it all from a professional standpoint, and to help

advocate for others. So I'm glad you're being trained to be a mental health

professional.

Holly

>

>

> Holly,

>

> I just wanted to chime in that you absolutely did the right thing for your

> siblings and I know how hard that must have been. I took in both my younger

> siblings as early teenagers to try to help them get away from our Nada. I

> know there isn't much comfort in doing the right thing if it still doesn't

> help, but I still wanted to add my support.

>

> As for the law and BPD it seems to get fuzzier every day for me as I am

> *trained* to be a mental health professional. It scares me to think I could

> be in a place to advocate for children in situations like the ones we were

> all in and not be able to " prove " abusive behaviors. I really hope that not

> only the laws but the professionals in these cases become more adept at

> handling these situations.

>

> Riah

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my

> four

> > > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that

> makes

> > > it

> > > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for the

> > > public.

> > > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard to

> > > prove

> > > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > > >

> > > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Riah,

Thanks for the reassurance It's been a quiet dream of mine to take in my

four little siblings (currently ages 12-7) to get them away from fada. Might

never happen, but I like to dream. I have an older little brother, 21, who's

married now, and when I went NC, he was acting a lot like fada. Feel sorry

for his new wife A family friend says that he's doing much better now

that he's living on his own, but I'll believe it when I see it.

And don't you just hate the inability to " prove " emotional abuse? Someone's

perspective of the issue could just as easily perceive it as within the

" normal " range of behavior for a parent. Part of me is thinking about

getting a second masters after my MLIS, in something mental health related,

to try to make sense of it all from a professional standpoint, and to help

advocate for others. So I'm glad you're being trained to be a mental health

professional.

Holly

>

>

> Holly,

>

> I just wanted to chime in that you absolutely did the right thing for your

> siblings and I know how hard that must have been. I took in both my younger

> siblings as early teenagers to try to help them get away from our Nada. I

> know there isn't much comfort in doing the right thing if it still doesn't

> help, but I still wanted to add my support.

>

> As for the law and BPD it seems to get fuzzier every day for me as I am

> *trained* to be a mental health professional. It scares me to think I could

> be in a place to advocate for children in situations like the ones we were

> all in and not be able to " prove " abusive behaviors. I really hope that not

> only the laws but the professionals in these cases become more adept at

> handling these situations.

>

> Riah

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my

> four

> > > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that

> makes

> > > it

> > > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for the

> > > public.

> > > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard to

> > > prove

> > > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > > >

> > > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Casey, and I hope so too!

It's a strange thing when we actually wish for physical abuse, because I

wanted the same thing when I was little! In fact, that's what my mom

sometimes said, " at least he's not physically abusive. " In retrospect,

though, that implies she knows he's abusive in other ways...I used to think

she was a victim, too, but now I know she was an enabler, and chose to be a

victim, and " to keep the peace " never protected us kids. Gee, sounds like

FLDS.

That's outrageous the law was written that way, and I wish the cops had told

you that in a better way. Instead of telling a kid that she's not being

abused because there are no " lasting marks, " or " physical abuse " why not

tell her that yes, it is abuse, but unfortunately the law is imperfect,

meanwhile, you can always talk with a couneslor at school, or a pastor, or

etc.... ?

I seriously need to write about my family more. It might help my siblings'

case, if I can actually prove mental/emotional abuse.

Holly

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 6:09 PM, slingshot2hell wrote:

>

>

> I agree you did a great thing Holly. Even if CPS doesn't do anything right

> away, at least they KNOW about them there, and hopefully your siblings will

> get a VA (victims advocate) that can help them out.

>

> In my state (WA) it was explained to me (by cops when they were trying to

> charge her with child abuse when someone called the cops on her once) that

> my nada was NOT abusing me unless she " hit with a closed fist " or " left

> lasting marks " . Since she was never physically violent with me (she would

> break windows/doors/possessions but never layed a hand on me) I was

> obviously with a competent mother!

>

> I hate that the abuse she put me through is not legally abuse. The things

> she said to me... no one, especially not a child, should have to go through

> that. Kids aren't DOGS (i call my dogs names sometimes, lol) and are

> actually very fragile in my opinion. Sometimes I used to wish she WOULD beat

> me just so I could have a real injury, a real " reason " to why I was suicidal

> and depressed. Eventually this desire led to me hurting myself physically.

>

> Casey

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > ,

> > > > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my

> four

> > > > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that

> makes

> > > > it

> > > > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for

> the

> > > > public.

> > > > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard

> to

> > > > prove

> > > > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > > > >

> > > > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Casey, and I hope so too!

It's a strange thing when we actually wish for physical abuse, because I

wanted the same thing when I was little! In fact, that's what my mom

sometimes said, " at least he's not physically abusive. " In retrospect,

though, that implies she knows he's abusive in other ways...I used to think

she was a victim, too, but now I know she was an enabler, and chose to be a

victim, and " to keep the peace " never protected us kids. Gee, sounds like

FLDS.

That's outrageous the law was written that way, and I wish the cops had told

you that in a better way. Instead of telling a kid that she's not being

abused because there are no " lasting marks, " or " physical abuse " why not

tell her that yes, it is abuse, but unfortunately the law is imperfect,

meanwhile, you can always talk with a couneslor at school, or a pastor, or

etc.... ?

I seriously need to write about my family more. It might help my siblings'

case, if I can actually prove mental/emotional abuse.

Holly

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 6:09 PM, slingshot2hell wrote:

>

>

> I agree you did a great thing Holly. Even if CPS doesn't do anything right

> away, at least they KNOW about them there, and hopefully your siblings will

> get a VA (victims advocate) that can help them out.

>

> In my state (WA) it was explained to me (by cops when they were trying to

> charge her with child abuse when someone called the cops on her once) that

> my nada was NOT abusing me unless she " hit with a closed fist " or " left

> lasting marks " . Since she was never physically violent with me (she would

> break windows/doors/possessions but never layed a hand on me) I was

> obviously with a competent mother!

>

> I hate that the abuse she put me through is not legally abuse. The things

> she said to me... no one, especially not a child, should have to go through

> that. Kids aren't DOGS (i call my dogs names sometimes, lol) and are

> actually very fragile in my opinion. Sometimes I used to wish she WOULD beat

> me just so I could have a real injury, a real " reason " to why I was suicidal

> and depressed. Eventually this desire led to me hurting myself physically.

>

> Casey

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > ,

> > > > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my

> four

> > > > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that

> makes

> > > > it

> > > > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for

> the

> > > > public.

> > > > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard

> to

> > > > prove

> > > > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > > > >

> > > > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Casey, and I hope so too!

It's a strange thing when we actually wish for physical abuse, because I

wanted the same thing when I was little! In fact, that's what my mom

sometimes said, " at least he's not physically abusive. " In retrospect,

though, that implies she knows he's abusive in other ways...I used to think

she was a victim, too, but now I know she was an enabler, and chose to be a

victim, and " to keep the peace " never protected us kids. Gee, sounds like

FLDS.

That's outrageous the law was written that way, and I wish the cops had told

you that in a better way. Instead of telling a kid that she's not being

abused because there are no " lasting marks, " or " physical abuse " why not

tell her that yes, it is abuse, but unfortunately the law is imperfect,

meanwhile, you can always talk with a couneslor at school, or a pastor, or

etc.... ?

I seriously need to write about my family more. It might help my siblings'

case, if I can actually prove mental/emotional abuse.

Holly

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 6:09 PM, slingshot2hell wrote:

>

>

> I agree you did a great thing Holly. Even if CPS doesn't do anything right

> away, at least they KNOW about them there, and hopefully your siblings will

> get a VA (victims advocate) that can help them out.

>

> In my state (WA) it was explained to me (by cops when they were trying to

> charge her with child abuse when someone called the cops on her once) that

> my nada was NOT abusing me unless she " hit with a closed fist " or " left

> lasting marks " . Since she was never physically violent with me (she would

> break windows/doors/possessions but never layed a hand on me) I was

> obviously with a competent mother!

>

> I hate that the abuse she put me through is not legally abuse. The things

> she said to me... no one, especially not a child, should have to go through

> that. Kids aren't DOGS (i call my dogs names sometimes, lol) and are

> actually very fragile in my opinion. Sometimes I used to wish she WOULD beat

> me just so I could have a real injury, a real " reason " to why I was suicidal

> and depressed. Eventually this desire led to me hurting myself physically.

>

> Casey

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > ,

> > > > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my

> four

> > > > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that

> makes

> > > > it

> > > > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for

> the

> > > > public.

> > > > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard

> to

> > > > prove

> > > > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > > > >

> > > > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I have wished sometimes that i was beaten too so it could validate the abuse I

went through. My dad loved to play mumbly peg unannounced but he had really good

aim so the knife always landed in between my feet instead of in my foot. So

thank god he didn't abuse me.

My mother was a slapper but the things that she said and her weirdo emotional

switches of treating me like the spawn of satan one minute and her emotional

savior the next, and then back to child of the devil, were way more damaging to

me than any slap.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ,

> > > > > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my

> > four

> > > > > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that

> > makes

> > > > > it

> > > > > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for

> > the

> > > > > public.

> > > > > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard

> > to

> > > > > prove

> > > > > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I have wished sometimes that i was beaten too so it could validate the abuse I

went through. My dad loved to play mumbly peg unannounced but he had really good

aim so the knife always landed in between my feet instead of in my foot. So

thank god he didn't abuse me.

My mother was a slapper but the things that she said and her weirdo emotional

switches of treating me like the spawn of satan one minute and her emotional

savior the next, and then back to child of the devil, were way more damaging to

me than any slap.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ,

> > > > > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my

> > four

> > > > > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that

> > makes

> > > > > it

> > > > > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for

> > the

> > > > > public.

> > > > > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard

> > to

> > > > > prove

> > > > > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I have wished sometimes that i was beaten too so it could validate the abuse I

went through. My dad loved to play mumbly peg unannounced but he had really good

aim so the knife always landed in between my feet instead of in my foot. So

thank god he didn't abuse me.

My mother was a slapper but the things that she said and her weirdo emotional

switches of treating me like the spawn of satan one minute and her emotional

savior the next, and then back to child of the devil, were way more damaging to

me than any slap.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ,

> > > > > > That's interesting, especially Nebraska law, since that's where my

> > four

> > > > > > littlest siblings are. The one I called CPS for. The sad part that

> > makes

> > > > > it

> > > > > > harder to enforce this law are people who put on a good show for

> > the

> > > > > public.

> > > > > > It's all about appearances w/ my fada, so it would be pretty hard

> > to

> > > > > prove

> > > > > > that he is incomepetent because of mental illness

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Still, it's good to know. Thanks for sharing your find!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Can you video tape it on your phone for proof?

>

>

>

> thanks so much for this thoughtful post. I think 'emotional abuse' is the

> perfect word for what is happening to my nephew. The one year old, who

> resembles her from when she was a child, is sometimes a target of aggression

> from the two year old, which only makes her more hostile toward the two year

> old. It's a vicious cycle. I am starting to think there is already emotional

> damage that has been done to the two year old. I am exasperated by my

> parents' tolerance of it in their home. It's beyond frustrating. I am going

> to try to find a counselor in the area with experience with bpd to see if

> they can tell me what if anything can be done in this situation. I see very

> little demonstration of her putting their needs before hers...the children

> have never had set meal times, set times to go to bed (she has always had

> them up until 9:30 or 10 at night, I think because she likes to sleep late

> and thinks that they will sleep later that way). They have never had any

> structure in their lives at all. Mealtimes could be at any time of the day.

> She was extremely innattentive to the hunger of the older child, my mother

> had to constantly point out to her and my brother when they first moved in

> with them that the reason that the two year old was acting out and

> frustrated was because he was hungry. And of course there is the constant

> mess and unsanitary conditions they live in. Another example of her putting

> her needs to never clean before their need for a sanitary environment.

> I continue to hit brick walls with people I have contacted in pointing out

> this pattern of emotional abuse of the older child. Plus it's just me saying

> it so it's 'he said she said'. I really do not want to live with knowing

> that I was called upon to act on behalf of this child and I didn't do so. To

> make it worse my brother is super religious and a fan of the Dobson

> type discipline which does nothing but send this child into a meltdown every

> time. It's really heartbreaking to watch.

>

>

> > >

> > > thanks for the information!

> > >

> > > that is great to know. I clicked on NC and I am not sure how to read

> the chart, some of the things have X's by them and some don't...I am sure

> the ones that don't have X's by them are grounds because they are things

> like 'sexual abuse', 'failure to maintain contact' etc, so I am not sure if

> I am reading the chart right. Either they think that sexual abuse is grounds

> for termination, or they don't, I am pretty confused by this chart.

> > >

> > > I guess in all these cases the parent was diagnosed prior to the court

> hearing or whatever, I wonder what they do in cases where there is no

> diagnoses (and never will be since the bpd is such a huckster at fooling

> people...she fooled me for months and months)

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Can you video tape it on your phone for proof?

>

>

>

> thanks so much for this thoughtful post. I think 'emotional abuse' is the

> perfect word for what is happening to my nephew. The one year old, who

> resembles her from when she was a child, is sometimes a target of aggression

> from the two year old, which only makes her more hostile toward the two year

> old. It's a vicious cycle. I am starting to think there is already emotional

> damage that has been done to the two year old. I am exasperated by my

> parents' tolerance of it in their home. It's beyond frustrating. I am going

> to try to find a counselor in the area with experience with bpd to see if

> they can tell me what if anything can be done in this situation. I see very

> little demonstration of her putting their needs before hers...the children

> have never had set meal times, set times to go to bed (she has always had

> them up until 9:30 or 10 at night, I think because she likes to sleep late

> and thinks that they will sleep later that way). They have never had any

> structure in their lives at all. Mealtimes could be at any time of the day.

> She was extremely innattentive to the hunger of the older child, my mother

> had to constantly point out to her and my brother when they first moved in

> with them that the reason that the two year old was acting out and

> frustrated was because he was hungry. And of course there is the constant

> mess and unsanitary conditions they live in. Another example of her putting

> her needs to never clean before their need for a sanitary environment.

> I continue to hit brick walls with people I have contacted in pointing out

> this pattern of emotional abuse of the older child. Plus it's just me saying

> it so it's 'he said she said'. I really do not want to live with knowing

> that I was called upon to act on behalf of this child and I didn't do so. To

> make it worse my brother is super religious and a fan of the Dobson

> type discipline which does nothing but send this child into a meltdown every

> time. It's really heartbreaking to watch.

>

>

> > >

> > > thanks for the information!

> > >

> > > that is great to know. I clicked on NC and I am not sure how to read

> the chart, some of the things have X's by them and some don't...I am sure

> the ones that don't have X's by them are grounds because they are things

> like 'sexual abuse', 'failure to maintain contact' etc, so I am not sure if

> I am reading the chart right. Either they think that sexual abuse is grounds

> for termination, or they don't, I am pretty confused by this chart.

> > >

> > > I guess in all these cases the parent was diagnosed prior to the court

> hearing or whatever, I wonder what they do in cases where there is no

> diagnoses (and never will be since the bpd is such a huckster at fooling

> people...she fooled me for months and months)

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Can you video tape it on your phone for proof?

>

>

>

> thanks so much for this thoughtful post. I think 'emotional abuse' is the

> perfect word for what is happening to my nephew. The one year old, who

> resembles her from when she was a child, is sometimes a target of aggression

> from the two year old, which only makes her more hostile toward the two year

> old. It's a vicious cycle. I am starting to think there is already emotional

> damage that has been done to the two year old. I am exasperated by my

> parents' tolerance of it in their home. It's beyond frustrating. I am going

> to try to find a counselor in the area with experience with bpd to see if

> they can tell me what if anything can be done in this situation. I see very

> little demonstration of her putting their needs before hers...the children

> have never had set meal times, set times to go to bed (she has always had

> them up until 9:30 or 10 at night, I think because she likes to sleep late

> and thinks that they will sleep later that way). They have never had any

> structure in their lives at all. Mealtimes could be at any time of the day.

> She was extremely innattentive to the hunger of the older child, my mother

> had to constantly point out to her and my brother when they first moved in

> with them that the reason that the two year old was acting out and

> frustrated was because he was hungry. And of course there is the constant

> mess and unsanitary conditions they live in. Another example of her putting

> her needs to never clean before their need for a sanitary environment.

> I continue to hit brick walls with people I have contacted in pointing out

> this pattern of emotional abuse of the older child. Plus it's just me saying

> it so it's 'he said she said'. I really do not want to live with knowing

> that I was called upon to act on behalf of this child and I didn't do so. To

> make it worse my brother is super religious and a fan of the Dobson

> type discipline which does nothing but send this child into a meltdown every

> time. It's really heartbreaking to watch.

>

>

> > >

> > > thanks for the information!

> > >

> > > that is great to know. I clicked on NC and I am not sure how to read

> the chart, some of the things have X's by them and some don't...I am sure

> the ones that don't have X's by them are grounds because they are things

> like 'sexual abuse', 'failure to maintain contact' etc, so I am not sure if

> I am reading the chart right. Either they think that sexual abuse is grounds

> for termination, or they don't, I am pretty confused by this chart.

> > >

> > > I guess in all these cases the parent was diagnosed prior to the court

> hearing or whatever, I wonder what they do in cases where there is no

> diagnoses (and never will be since the bpd is such a huckster at fooling

> people...she fooled me for months and months)

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Joe - You have mentioned that your nephew has sensory processing issues. Are

they working with a specialist yet? I'm thinking that this could be a point of

entry to get him some help. Depending on his specific issue, it may be that

regular mealtimes, a sensible bedtime, and keeping things predictable would just

be part of his " therapy " (not to mention, common sense for raising toddlers...).

If his parents (and your parents) won't behave themselves based on regular

common sense, maybe they'd listen if the doctor tells them they MUST change

their behavior toward this child, because his ability to succeed in school

depends on what they do now - so if they're going to have any hope of having him

in mainstream classes, they have to get off their duffs and start actually being

parents.

If he's going to need to work with therapists or special ed teachers, those

could also be good advocates for him - they'll know him well, and will be able

to get the attention of the authorities if the little boy is being neglected.

> > >

> > > thanks for the information!

> > >

> > > that is great to know. I clicked on NC and I am not sure how to read the

chart, some of the things have X's by them and some don't...I am sure the ones

that don't have X's by them are grounds because they are things like 'sexual

abuse', 'failure to maintain contact' etc, so I am not sure if I am reading the

chart right. Either they think that sexual abuse is grounds for termination, or

they don't, I am pretty confused by this chart.

> > >

> > > I guess in all these cases the parent was diagnosed prior to the court

hearing or whatever, I wonder what they do in cases where there is no diagnoses

(and never will be since the bpd is such a huckster at fooling people...she

fooled me for months and months)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Joe - You have mentioned that your nephew has sensory processing issues. Are

they working with a specialist yet? I'm thinking that this could be a point of

entry to get him some help. Depending on his specific issue, it may be that

regular mealtimes, a sensible bedtime, and keeping things predictable would just

be part of his " therapy " (not to mention, common sense for raising toddlers...).

If his parents (and your parents) won't behave themselves based on regular

common sense, maybe they'd listen if the doctor tells them they MUST change

their behavior toward this child, because his ability to succeed in school

depends on what they do now - so if they're going to have any hope of having him

in mainstream classes, they have to get off their duffs and start actually being

parents.

If he's going to need to work with therapists or special ed teachers, those

could also be good advocates for him - they'll know him well, and will be able

to get the attention of the authorities if the little boy is being neglected.

> > >

> > > thanks for the information!

> > >

> > > that is great to know. I clicked on NC and I am not sure how to read the

chart, some of the things have X's by them and some don't...I am sure the ones

that don't have X's by them are grounds because they are things like 'sexual

abuse', 'failure to maintain contact' etc, so I am not sure if I am reading the

chart right. Either they think that sexual abuse is grounds for termination, or

they don't, I am pretty confused by this chart.

> > >

> > > I guess in all these cases the parent was diagnosed prior to the court

hearing or whatever, I wonder what they do in cases where there is no diagnoses

(and never will be since the bpd is such a huckster at fooling people...she

fooled me for months and months)

> >

>