Re: does anyone think bpd is a fancy scientific term for evil?

[Guest guest]

Me personally, I think the kinds of things that were done to you were/are evil.

But I think that both mentally ill people and non-mentally ill people can do

evil. The mentally ill, personality-disordered people seem to be mostly

executing the evil acts, while the non-mentally ill but weak, scared people look

the other way and allow the evil acts to happen... but to me that's just as evil

in its own way.

I think that it does take a mis-wired, dysfunctioning,

swiss-cheese-hole-incomplete or otherwise screwed-up, sick brain to commit the

kinds of abuses against children and helpless adults that we read about here and

at other groups I belong to.

So, I don't know. I guess I'm not willing to take that last step and say " this

(or that) person is evil " but I sure don't have any trouble saying that what

this (or that) person DOES is evil, reprehensible and vile.

-Annie

>

> my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this day.

I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more than

$75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i am

missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry for

myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not continue

at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging things>>>slut,

whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14. man..14 is

young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so maybe that is why

she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she told them i was a family

wrecker...she went into my school and told my teachers what a slut i was>>>she

hired an adult man to be my babysitter which molested my brother and i> she gave

me a std because i always had to wear her clothes because she did not want to

buy any for me> something i could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any

remorse...if i did the stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to

sleep at night! she is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my

golden brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had

any valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

actions>>> are EVIL!

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't quite gotten to the point of even calling a BPD person's acts

" evil, " even though my husband uses the word quite frequently when we talk

about my fada. Actually, DH calls my fada " evil, " not just fada's deeds.

I'm glad for his bluntness--he got it from his mom and his grandmother. He

knows I'm not ready to abscribe " evil " to my fada. I think my reluctance is

probably a mechanism for protecting me from the mental after-effects, at

least temporarily.

BPD people may be indeed evil, but using the phrase Borderline Personality

Disorder is a handy way of being able to speak frankly about the people

without having to cast judgement. Also, after having fada/nada/etc judging

us at every turn may make some of us more reluctant to do any sort of

judgement, as a sort of flea.

I can see how BPD = evil, but I'm not to that point myself, yet.

Holly

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 8:16 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Me personally, I think the kinds of things that were done to you were/are

> evil. But I think that both mentally ill people and non-mentally ill people

> can do evil. The mentally ill, personality-disordered people seem to be

> mostly executing the evil acts, while the non-mentally ill but weak, scared

> people look the other way and allow the evil acts to happen... but to me

> that's just as evil in its own way.

>

> I think that it does take a mis-wired, dysfunctioning,

> swiss-cheese-hole-incomplete or otherwise screwed-up, sick brain to commit

> the kinds of abuses against children and helpless adults that we read about

> here and at other groups I belong to.

>

> So, I don't know. I guess I'm not willing to take that last step and say

> " this (or that) person is evil " but I sure don't have any trouble saying

> that what this (or that) person DOES is evil, reprehensible and vile.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this

> day. I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more

> than $75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i

> am missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry

> for myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not

> continue at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging

> things>>>slut, whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14.

> man..14 is young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so

> maybe that is why she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she

> told them i was a family wrecker...she went into my school and told my

> teachers what a slut i was>>>she hired an adult man to be my babysitter

> which molested my brother and i> she gave me a std because i always had to

> wear her clothes because she did not want to buy any for me> something i

> could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any remorse...if i did the

> stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to sleep at night! she

> is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my golden

> brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had any

> valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

> all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

> sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

> actions>>> are EVIL!

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't quite gotten to the point of even calling a BPD person's acts

" evil, " even though my husband uses the word quite frequently when we talk

about my fada. Actually, DH calls my fada " evil, " not just fada's deeds.

I'm glad for his bluntness--he got it from his mom and his grandmother. He

knows I'm not ready to abscribe " evil " to my fada. I think my reluctance is

probably a mechanism for protecting me from the mental after-effects, at

least temporarily.

BPD people may be indeed evil, but using the phrase Borderline Personality

Disorder is a handy way of being able to speak frankly about the people

without having to cast judgement. Also, after having fada/nada/etc judging

us at every turn may make some of us more reluctant to do any sort of

judgement, as a sort of flea.

I can see how BPD = evil, but I'm not to that point myself, yet.

Holly

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 8:16 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Me personally, I think the kinds of things that were done to you were/are

> evil. But I think that both mentally ill people and non-mentally ill people

> can do evil. The mentally ill, personality-disordered people seem to be

> mostly executing the evil acts, while the non-mentally ill but weak, scared

> people look the other way and allow the evil acts to happen... but to me

> that's just as evil in its own way.

>

> I think that it does take a mis-wired, dysfunctioning,

> swiss-cheese-hole-incomplete or otherwise screwed-up, sick brain to commit

> the kinds of abuses against children and helpless adults that we read about

> here and at other groups I belong to.

>

> So, I don't know. I guess I'm not willing to take that last step and say

> " this (or that) person is evil " but I sure don't have any trouble saying

> that what this (or that) person DOES is evil, reprehensible and vile.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this

> day. I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more

> than $75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i

> am missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry

> for myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not

> continue at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging

> things>>>slut, whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14.

> man..14 is young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so

> maybe that is why she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she

> told them i was a family wrecker...she went into my school and told my

> teachers what a slut i was>>>she hired an adult man to be my babysitter

> which molested my brother and i> she gave me a std because i always had to

> wear her clothes because she did not want to buy any for me> something i

> could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any remorse...if i did the

> stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to sleep at night! she

> is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my golden

> brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had any

> valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

> all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

> sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

> actions>>> are EVIL!

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I think it is evil. And I'll tell you why - because they can see they

are hurting a child, but they are still not willing to change. Mentally ill

is one thing, hell, I'm mentally ill, diagnosed you name it. But I don't

keep doing what I'm doing if I can see it is hurting someone, I'm talking

about doing real damage to a child - and if you don't bother to look to see

if you are hurting your child (which my nada also did) then you are still

evil.

And yes, the people who looked the other way are also evil. So to me, evil

is not being willing to change your behavior, seek treatment etc. A BPD is

not evil if they ask for and accept help and do the work to get better.

I have read People of the Lie about a million times. I found that my

boundaries with good and bad were very loose and I " knew " where to draw the

line, but I needed someone else to verify what I saw. that book does it.

Another thing it taught me is that I feel a huge sense of revulsion around

nada for a good reason - I can sense the evil. So now I trust that.

So, if it give you peace I'll say it right out loud - your nada was evil.

She should not have done that to you and I hope she doesn't get away with

it.

I'm sorry that happened to you. If I had been your mother it would NOT have

happened.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 7:16 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Me personally, I think the kinds of things that were done to you were/are

> evil. But I think that both mentally ill people and non-mentally ill people

> can do evil. The mentally ill, personality-disordered people seem to be

> mostly executing the evil acts, while the non-mentally ill but weak, scared

> people look the other way and allow the evil acts to happen... but to me

> that's just as evil in its own way.

>

> I think that it does take a mis-wired, dysfunctioning,

> swiss-cheese-hole-incomplete or otherwise screwed-up, sick brain to commit

> the kinds of abuses against children and helpless adults that we read about

> here and at other groups I belong to.

>

> So, I don't know. I guess I'm not willing to take that last step and say

> " this (or that) person is evil " but I sure don't have any trouble saying

> that what this (or that) person DOES is evil, reprehensible and vile.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this

> day. I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more

> than $75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i

> am missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry

> for myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not

> continue at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging

> things>>>slut, whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14.

> man..14 is young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so

> maybe that is why she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she

> told them i was a family wrecker...she went into my school and told my

> teachers what a slut i was>>>she hired an adult man to be my babysitter

> which molested my brother and i> she gave me a std because i always had to

> wear her clothes because she did not want to buy any for me> something i

> could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any remorse...if i did the

> stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to sleep at night! she

> is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my golden

> brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had any

> valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

> all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

> sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

> actions>>> are EVIL!

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I think it is evil. And I'll tell you why - because they can see they

are hurting a child, but they are still not willing to change. Mentally ill

is one thing, hell, I'm mentally ill, diagnosed you name it. But I don't

keep doing what I'm doing if I can see it is hurting someone, I'm talking

about doing real damage to a child - and if you don't bother to look to see

if you are hurting your child (which my nada also did) then you are still

evil.

And yes, the people who looked the other way are also evil. So to me, evil

is not being willing to change your behavior, seek treatment etc. A BPD is

not evil if they ask for and accept help and do the work to get better.

I have read People of the Lie about a million times. I found that my

boundaries with good and bad were very loose and I " knew " where to draw the

line, but I needed someone else to verify what I saw. that book does it.

Another thing it taught me is that I feel a huge sense of revulsion around

nada for a good reason - I can sense the evil. So now I trust that.

So, if it give you peace I'll say it right out loud - your nada was evil.

She should not have done that to you and I hope she doesn't get away with

it.

I'm sorry that happened to you. If I had been your mother it would NOT have

happened.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 7:16 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Me personally, I think the kinds of things that were done to you were/are

> evil. But I think that both mentally ill people and non-mentally ill people

> can do evil. The mentally ill, personality-disordered people seem to be

> mostly executing the evil acts, while the non-mentally ill but weak, scared

> people look the other way and allow the evil acts to happen... but to me

> that's just as evil in its own way.

>

> I think that it does take a mis-wired, dysfunctioning,

> swiss-cheese-hole-incomplete or otherwise screwed-up, sick brain to commit

> the kinds of abuses against children and helpless adults that we read about

> here and at other groups I belong to.

>

> So, I don't know. I guess I'm not willing to take that last step and say

> " this (or that) person is evil " but I sure don't have any trouble saying

> that what this (or that) person DOES is evil, reprehensible and vile.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this

> day. I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more

> than $75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i

> am missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry

> for myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not

> continue at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging

> things>>>slut, whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14.

> man..14 is young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so

> maybe that is why she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she

> told them i was a family wrecker...she went into my school and told my

> teachers what a slut i was>>>she hired an adult man to be my babysitter

> which molested my brother and i> she gave me a std because i always had to

> wear her clothes because she did not want to buy any for me> something i

> could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any remorse...if i did the

> stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to sleep at night! she

> is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my golden

> brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had any

> valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

> all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

> sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

> actions>>> are EVIL!

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes. I think the impulses, the actions, the behaviors, and the voices in their

head are all evil.

Evil destroys. It doesn't have the capacity to build up or support healthy

life. Evil brings darkness and pain.

The question I struggle with is this: How much are they the victims of evil and

how much are they the willing participants?

Hmmmm . .

Great question.

Blessings,

Karla

>

> my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this day.

I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more than

$75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i am

missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry for

myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not continue

at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging things>>>slut,

whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14. man..14 is

young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so maybe that is why

she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she told them i was a family

wrecker...she went into my school and told my teachers what a slut i was>>>she

hired an adult man to be my babysitter which molested my brother and i> she gave

me a std because i always had to wear her clothes because she did not want to

buy any for me> something i could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any

remorse...if i did the stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to

sleep at night! she is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my

golden brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had

any valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

actions>>> are EVIL!

>

[Guest guest]

Yes. I think the impulses, the actions, the behaviors, and the voices in their

head are all evil.

Evil destroys. It doesn't have the capacity to build up or support healthy

life. Evil brings darkness and pain.

The question I struggle with is this: How much are they the victims of evil and

how much are they the willing participants?

Hmmmm . .

Great question.

Blessings,

Karla

>

> my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this day.

I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more than

$75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i am

missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry for

myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not continue

at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging things>>>slut,

whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14. man..14 is

young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so maybe that is why

she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she told them i was a family

wrecker...she went into my school and told my teachers what a slut i was>>>she

hired an adult man to be my babysitter which molested my brother and i> she gave

me a std because i always had to wear her clothes because she did not want to

buy any for me> something i could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any

remorse...if i did the stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to

sleep at night! she is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my

golden brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had

any valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

actions>>> are EVIL!

>

[Guest guest]

Yes. I think the impulses, the actions, the behaviors, and the voices in their

head are all evil.

Evil destroys. It doesn't have the capacity to build up or support healthy

life. Evil brings darkness and pain.

The question I struggle with is this: How much are they the victims of evil and

how much are they the willing participants?

Hmmmm . .

Great question.

Blessings,

Karla

>

> my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this day.

I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more than

$75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i am

missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry for

myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not continue

at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging things>>>slut,

whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14. man..14 is

young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so maybe that is why

she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she told them i was a family

wrecker...she went into my school and told my teachers what a slut i was>>>she

hired an adult man to be my babysitter which molested my brother and i> she gave

me a std because i always had to wear her clothes because she did not want to

buy any for me> something i could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any

remorse...if i did the stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to

sleep at night! she is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my

golden brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had

any valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

actions>>> are EVIL!

>

[Guest guest]

,

I am always just so struck by your insights regarding the memories that you

share here. I am continually amazed at the core of resilience and strength in

you in spite of what your nada and your enabling fada did to you.

In this case, its the complete lack of remorse and empathy that your nada

exhibited even though she was admitting to you *that she was aware of

mistreating you deliberately and repeatedly* that struck me. Your nada said she

" couldn't help it " which is another way of saying (seems to me) that she felt

*entitled* to go ahead and do it.

That just screams narcissistic pd and antisocial pd to me. My own personal

opinion is that people with Cluster B disorders in that degree of severity are

way too mentally ill to be raising children. You're lucky to even be alive.

I experienced a very (eerily) similar conversation with my own nada a few years

back.

She admitted very casually and with virtually no emotion, and with absolutely no

remorse or empathy for my experience, that she " gave up on having a normal

mother-daughter relationship " with me " by the time you were three years old. "

Her point of view was that I (the baby) hated her and rejected her. There was

absolutely NO awareness or insight at all on nada's part that screaming

at/terrorizing a baby, slapping her in the face and hitting her had made her

tiny child afraid of her. Nada was always the perfect mother. " So, I was so

happy to find that I was pregnant again, because I'd have another chance to be

loved, " said nada, rather wistfully.

I think she was actually expecting me to apologize to her for making her feel

rejected.

The bizarre *casualness* of this admission (so similar to your own nada's)

delivered without any particle of remorse or empathy or acceptance of any

personal responsibility... totally poleaxed me. I was struck dumb, unable to

even respond in the moment, since it suddenly made so many puzzle pieces fall

into place.

I'm willing to bet that my mother has a good dose of antisocial pd (aka

sociopathy or psychopathy) mixed in there with her bpd and narcissism.

Its just a shame there is no evaluation or test that new parents need to undergo

before being allowed to raise children, is all I can say.

-Annie

>

> and Karla,I hope you don't mind if I jump in here with some thoughts

>

> ,I've never seen the show Supernatural since I no longer watch tv

at all,but what struck me about the example you provided about this Dean

character is his shameful awareness that taking on the role of torturer of " new

souls " amounts to *using* them to spare himself pain--and that it took forty

years for him to be broken down enough to be desperate enough to do so.

>

> I agree with you that our BPD nadas/fadas feel no shame about what they

do because they have no real awareness of what they're doing.I know that it's

not possible to totally narrow down what motivates a BPD's behavior to one core

thing but to my mind it's their reflexive and unconscious *using* of others to

serve their needs that leads to the evil behaviors.I think that this using

capacity is so systemic to the illness that it begins to issue as if naturally

from their very characters--unless of course it is examined and a course of

taking responsibility for meetng their own needs themselves is

undertaken...which as we all know is highly unlikely: it's so much more

expediant for a BPD to appropriate a " self " from someone else and to use that

self for their own ends...

>

> Going back to Karla's question: How much are they the victims of evil

and how much are they the willing participants?

>

> I've asked myself that question so many times...A few years ago when

I was still in regular contact with nada I took her clothes shopping one

day--she had by then gotten to the point of being rather low functioning and was

no longer taking care of her appearance--and we had this bizarre " conversation "

in the car driving to the mall.

>

> I was patient and non chalant at the time about her increasingly

shocking personal hygiene,unlike my NPD fada who was beginning to rage at her

more and more about it trying to bully her into taking better care of herself.My

attitude was: Let's go to the mall and find you something pretty to wear and if

you pitch a fit about what I pick out,you can just keep right on wearing those

falling apart sweats you've got on,whatever,it doesn't matter to me.After a

couple of futile shopping excursions with me not particularly caring if she got

anything or not,she relaxed and let me " find " stuff for her.

>

> So anyway that day in the car she told me, " I'm ashamed to admit I

never knew what a kind,compassionate person you are. "

>

> Sounds good,doesn't it? She even said, " I'm ashamed " !

>

> But not in an apologetic voice and not with any remorse,more like

a bland statement...I was on this automatic pilot at the time of not letting her

get under my skin,so I replied back blandly, " It's alright... "

>

> She insisted, " No,you really are.I never knew.When you were a

little girl I purposefully tore you down to feel better about me.You always

possessed all these qualities Dad and I never had and I was jealous of you.I

knew I was doing it but I couldn't stop it. "

>

> Again,she wasn't saying any of this with genuine feeling--her tone

of voice was closer to pointing out that it happened to be a sunny day and the

sky was blue.

>

> I was trying very hard at the time to keep myself on a groove of

non-reactiveness to her so I totally didn't want to go there about being

purposefully torn down as a kid.Also not trusting any seeming insight or

awareness from her because in the past that had always been followed by her

going right back to being a nada shortly afterward.

>

> So I just said, " Hhhmmmm " in a neutral voice.Although admittedly a

part of me wanted badly to believe that she was about to really tell me

something at last; to show me that she had finally gotten it and that she really

did care that she had done wrong.

>

> She added in this conspiratorial murmur she had sometimes when

mentioning anything that might be construed as " bad behavior " from her, " You're

the only one who really knows me.Nobody else does.Everybody else only knows me

through my act,even Dad,but you're the only one who knows the real me. "

>

> I knew the " real her " alright: the vicious,vindictive hate filled

" mother " who encouraged me to commit suicide at twelve,among so much other nasty

and negative treatment of me from birth.While I was thinking of the terrible

emotional consequences I had borne from these actions of hers,she said:

>

> " Everyone else thinks I'm just this nice smiling person but you

know the truth.You know the me behind the act.And here you are being so

compassionate to me.I should have seen it before but I didn't.But now I do. "

>

> I lost my temper slightly and pointed out to her, " I've always

been compassionate to you. "

>

> She smiled happily (my " mother " who had just told me that she'd

purposefully torn me down as a little girl) and said cheerfully, " Yes,you

probably were.I didn't see it then but now I do. "

>

> The point of this is that the extent of her " awareness " of my

compassion was along the lines of the old tv commercial,like she was slapping

her forehead and going, " Oh,I could've had a V8! "

>

> Like:I could have had you (used you) as an ally years and years

ago and I erred in making you an enemy instead when having you as an ally would

have served ME much better.That was how deep her " oops " went.

>

> No remorse over what she might have done to me as a little

girl.No real apology.A sense of self satisfaction at " seeing it now " .But zero

awareness.

>

> Because all she had " seen " was how she could have used me

better, " the only one who really knows me " .And how she might use me in future in

this capacity.

>

> To me that's the evil and tragedy of this illness: they only know

how to use people.Whether they are taking hold of you to tear you apart or

latching on to you to keep themselves afloat,they are vampirizing you.Or all

they know how to do is cannabalize whatever qualities you have for the

sustenance of their sickness in the sense of that making it (or them) be " ok " .

>

> Even when it's a " mother " telling her daughter how kind and

compassionate she is that is still *using* her.That kindness and compassion

doens't exist in and of itself or is simply something wonderful about the

daughter--it is there for nada's use.To me,going through life constantly using

others--esp. your own children--is as sad as it is evil.

>

>

>

> --- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " climberkayak "

[Guest guest]

,

I am always just so struck by your insights regarding the memories that you

share here. I am continually amazed at the core of resilience and strength in

you in spite of what your nada and your enabling fada did to you.

In this case, its the complete lack of remorse and empathy that your nada

exhibited even though she was admitting to you *that she was aware of

mistreating you deliberately and repeatedly* that struck me. Your nada said she

" couldn't help it " which is another way of saying (seems to me) that she felt

*entitled* to go ahead and do it.

That just screams narcissistic pd and antisocial pd to me. My own personal

opinion is that people with Cluster B disorders in that degree of severity are

way too mentally ill to be raising children. You're lucky to even be alive.

I experienced a very (eerily) similar conversation with my own nada a few years

back.

She admitted very casually and with virtually no emotion, and with absolutely no

remorse or empathy for my experience, that she " gave up on having a normal

mother-daughter relationship " with me " by the time you were three years old. "

Her point of view was that I (the baby) hated her and rejected her. There was

absolutely NO awareness or insight at all on nada's part that screaming

at/terrorizing a baby, slapping her in the face and hitting her had made her

tiny child afraid of her. Nada was always the perfect mother. " So, I was so

happy to find that I was pregnant again, because I'd have another chance to be

loved, " said nada, rather wistfully.

I think she was actually expecting me to apologize to her for making her feel

rejected.

The bizarre *casualness* of this admission (so similar to your own nada's)

delivered without any particle of remorse or empathy or acceptance of any

personal responsibility... totally poleaxed me. I was struck dumb, unable to

even respond in the moment, since it suddenly made so many puzzle pieces fall

into place.

I'm willing to bet that my mother has a good dose of antisocial pd (aka

sociopathy or psychopathy) mixed in there with her bpd and narcissism.

Its just a shame there is no evaluation or test that new parents need to undergo

before being allowed to raise children, is all I can say.

-Annie

>

> and Karla,I hope you don't mind if I jump in here with some thoughts

>

> ,I've never seen the show Supernatural since I no longer watch tv

at all,but what struck me about the example you provided about this Dean

character is his shameful awareness that taking on the role of torturer of " new

souls " amounts to *using* them to spare himself pain--and that it took forty

years for him to be broken down enough to be desperate enough to do so.

>

> I agree with you that our BPD nadas/fadas feel no shame about what they

do because they have no real awareness of what they're doing.I know that it's

not possible to totally narrow down what motivates a BPD's behavior to one core

thing but to my mind it's their reflexive and unconscious *using* of others to

serve their needs that leads to the evil behaviors.I think that this using

capacity is so systemic to the illness that it begins to issue as if naturally

from their very characters--unless of course it is examined and a course of

taking responsibility for meetng their own needs themselves is

undertaken...which as we all know is highly unlikely: it's so much more

expediant for a BPD to appropriate a " self " from someone else and to use that

self for their own ends...

>

> Going back to Karla's question: How much are they the victims of evil

and how much are they the willing participants?

>

> I've asked myself that question so many times...A few years ago when

I was still in regular contact with nada I took her clothes shopping one

day--she had by then gotten to the point of being rather low functioning and was

no longer taking care of her appearance--and we had this bizarre " conversation "

in the car driving to the mall.

>

> I was patient and non chalant at the time about her increasingly

shocking personal hygiene,unlike my NPD fada who was beginning to rage at her

more and more about it trying to bully her into taking better care of herself.My

attitude was: Let's go to the mall and find you something pretty to wear and if

you pitch a fit about what I pick out,you can just keep right on wearing those

falling apart sweats you've got on,whatever,it doesn't matter to me.After a

couple of futile shopping excursions with me not particularly caring if she got

anything or not,she relaxed and let me " find " stuff for her.

>

> So anyway that day in the car she told me, " I'm ashamed to admit I

never knew what a kind,compassionate person you are. "

>

> Sounds good,doesn't it? She even said, " I'm ashamed " !

>

> But not in an apologetic voice and not with any remorse,more like

a bland statement...I was on this automatic pilot at the time of not letting her

get under my skin,so I replied back blandly, " It's alright... "

>

> She insisted, " No,you really are.I never knew.When you were a

little girl I purposefully tore you down to feel better about me.You always

possessed all these qualities Dad and I never had and I was jealous of you.I

knew I was doing it but I couldn't stop it. "

>

> Again,she wasn't saying any of this with genuine feeling--her tone

of voice was closer to pointing out that it happened to be a sunny day and the

sky was blue.

>

> I was trying very hard at the time to keep myself on a groove of

non-reactiveness to her so I totally didn't want to go there about being

purposefully torn down as a kid.Also not trusting any seeming insight or

awareness from her because in the past that had always been followed by her

going right back to being a nada shortly afterward.

>

> So I just said, " Hhhmmmm " in a neutral voice.Although admittedly a

part of me wanted badly to believe that she was about to really tell me

something at last; to show me that she had finally gotten it and that she really

did care that she had done wrong.

>

> She added in this conspiratorial murmur she had sometimes when

mentioning anything that might be construed as " bad behavior " from her, " You're

the only one who really knows me.Nobody else does.Everybody else only knows me

through my act,even Dad,but you're the only one who knows the real me. "

>

> I knew the " real her " alright: the vicious,vindictive hate filled

" mother " who encouraged me to commit suicide at twelve,among so much other nasty

and negative treatment of me from birth.While I was thinking of the terrible

emotional consequences I had borne from these actions of hers,she said:

>

> " Everyone else thinks I'm just this nice smiling person but you

know the truth.You know the me behind the act.And here you are being so

compassionate to me.I should have seen it before but I didn't.But now I do. "

>

> I lost my temper slightly and pointed out to her, " I've always

been compassionate to you. "

>

> She smiled happily (my " mother " who had just told me that she'd

purposefully torn me down as a little girl) and said cheerfully, " Yes,you

probably were.I didn't see it then but now I do. "

>

> The point of this is that the extent of her " awareness " of my

compassion was along the lines of the old tv commercial,like she was slapping

her forehead and going, " Oh,I could've had a V8! "

>

> Like:I could have had you (used you) as an ally years and years

ago and I erred in making you an enemy instead when having you as an ally would

have served ME much better.That was how deep her " oops " went.

>

> No remorse over what she might have done to me as a little

girl.No real apology.A sense of self satisfaction at " seeing it now " .But zero

awareness.

>

> Because all she had " seen " was how she could have used me

better, " the only one who really knows me " .And how she might use me in future in

this capacity.

>

> To me that's the evil and tragedy of this illness: they only know

how to use people.Whether they are taking hold of you to tear you apart or

latching on to you to keep themselves afloat,they are vampirizing you.Or all

they know how to do is cannabalize whatever qualities you have for the

sustenance of their sickness in the sense of that making it (or them) be " ok " .

>

> Even when it's a " mother " telling her daughter how kind and

compassionate she is that is still *using* her.That kindness and compassion

doens't exist in and of itself or is simply something wonderful about the

daughter--it is there for nada's use.To me,going through life constantly using

others--esp. your own children--is as sad as it is evil.

>

>

>

> --- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " climberkayak "

[Guest guest]

,

I am always just so struck by your insights regarding the memories that you

share here. I am continually amazed at the core of resilience and strength in

you in spite of what your nada and your enabling fada did to you.

In this case, its the complete lack of remorse and empathy that your nada

exhibited even though she was admitting to you *that she was aware of

mistreating you deliberately and repeatedly* that struck me. Your nada said she

" couldn't help it " which is another way of saying (seems to me) that she felt

*entitled* to go ahead and do it.

That just screams narcissistic pd and antisocial pd to me. My own personal

opinion is that people with Cluster B disorders in that degree of severity are

way too mentally ill to be raising children. You're lucky to even be alive.

I experienced a very (eerily) similar conversation with my own nada a few years

back.

She admitted very casually and with virtually no emotion, and with absolutely no

remorse or empathy for my experience, that she " gave up on having a normal

mother-daughter relationship " with me " by the time you were three years old. "

Her point of view was that I (the baby) hated her and rejected her. There was

absolutely NO awareness or insight at all on nada's part that screaming

at/terrorizing a baby, slapping her in the face and hitting her had made her

tiny child afraid of her. Nada was always the perfect mother. " So, I was so

happy to find that I was pregnant again, because I'd have another chance to be

loved, " said nada, rather wistfully.

I think she was actually expecting me to apologize to her for making her feel

rejected.

The bizarre *casualness* of this admission (so similar to your own nada's)

delivered without any particle of remorse or empathy or acceptance of any

personal responsibility... totally poleaxed me. I was struck dumb, unable to

even respond in the moment, since it suddenly made so many puzzle pieces fall

into place.

I'm willing to bet that my mother has a good dose of antisocial pd (aka

sociopathy or psychopathy) mixed in there with her bpd and narcissism.

Its just a shame there is no evaluation or test that new parents need to undergo

before being allowed to raise children, is all I can say.

-Annie

>

> and Karla,I hope you don't mind if I jump in here with some thoughts

>

> ,I've never seen the show Supernatural since I no longer watch tv

at all,but what struck me about the example you provided about this Dean

character is his shameful awareness that taking on the role of torturer of " new

souls " amounts to *using* them to spare himself pain--and that it took forty

years for him to be broken down enough to be desperate enough to do so.

>

> I agree with you that our BPD nadas/fadas feel no shame about what they

do because they have no real awareness of what they're doing.I know that it's

not possible to totally narrow down what motivates a BPD's behavior to one core

thing but to my mind it's their reflexive and unconscious *using* of others to

serve their needs that leads to the evil behaviors.I think that this using

capacity is so systemic to the illness that it begins to issue as if naturally

from their very characters--unless of course it is examined and a course of

taking responsibility for meetng their own needs themselves is

undertaken...which as we all know is highly unlikely: it's so much more

expediant for a BPD to appropriate a " self " from someone else and to use that

self for their own ends...

>

> Going back to Karla's question: How much are they the victims of evil

and how much are they the willing participants?

>

> I've asked myself that question so many times...A few years ago when

I was still in regular contact with nada I took her clothes shopping one

day--she had by then gotten to the point of being rather low functioning and was

no longer taking care of her appearance--and we had this bizarre " conversation "

in the car driving to the mall.

>

> I was patient and non chalant at the time about her increasingly

shocking personal hygiene,unlike my NPD fada who was beginning to rage at her

more and more about it trying to bully her into taking better care of herself.My

attitude was: Let's go to the mall and find you something pretty to wear and if

you pitch a fit about what I pick out,you can just keep right on wearing those

falling apart sweats you've got on,whatever,it doesn't matter to me.After a

couple of futile shopping excursions with me not particularly caring if she got

anything or not,she relaxed and let me " find " stuff for her.

>

> So anyway that day in the car she told me, " I'm ashamed to admit I

never knew what a kind,compassionate person you are. "

>

> Sounds good,doesn't it? She even said, " I'm ashamed " !

>

> But not in an apologetic voice and not with any remorse,more like

a bland statement...I was on this automatic pilot at the time of not letting her

get under my skin,so I replied back blandly, " It's alright... "

>

> She insisted, " No,you really are.I never knew.When you were a

little girl I purposefully tore you down to feel better about me.You always

possessed all these qualities Dad and I never had and I was jealous of you.I

knew I was doing it but I couldn't stop it. "

>

> Again,she wasn't saying any of this with genuine feeling--her tone

of voice was closer to pointing out that it happened to be a sunny day and the

sky was blue.

>

> I was trying very hard at the time to keep myself on a groove of

non-reactiveness to her so I totally didn't want to go there about being

purposefully torn down as a kid.Also not trusting any seeming insight or

awareness from her because in the past that had always been followed by her

going right back to being a nada shortly afterward.

>

> So I just said, " Hhhmmmm " in a neutral voice.Although admittedly a

part of me wanted badly to believe that she was about to really tell me

something at last; to show me that she had finally gotten it and that she really

did care that she had done wrong.

>

> She added in this conspiratorial murmur she had sometimes when

mentioning anything that might be construed as " bad behavior " from her, " You're

the only one who really knows me.Nobody else does.Everybody else only knows me

through my act,even Dad,but you're the only one who knows the real me. "

>

> I knew the " real her " alright: the vicious,vindictive hate filled

" mother " who encouraged me to commit suicide at twelve,among so much other nasty

and negative treatment of me from birth.While I was thinking of the terrible

emotional consequences I had borne from these actions of hers,she said:

>

> " Everyone else thinks I'm just this nice smiling person but you

know the truth.You know the me behind the act.And here you are being so

compassionate to me.I should have seen it before but I didn't.But now I do. "

>

> I lost my temper slightly and pointed out to her, " I've always

been compassionate to you. "

>

> She smiled happily (my " mother " who had just told me that she'd

purposefully torn me down as a little girl) and said cheerfully, " Yes,you

probably were.I didn't see it then but now I do. "

>

> The point of this is that the extent of her " awareness " of my

compassion was along the lines of the old tv commercial,like she was slapping

her forehead and going, " Oh,I could've had a V8! "

>

> Like:I could have had you (used you) as an ally years and years

ago and I erred in making you an enemy instead when having you as an ally would

have served ME much better.That was how deep her " oops " went.

>

> No remorse over what she might have done to me as a little

girl.No real apology.A sense of self satisfaction at " seeing it now " .But zero

awareness.

>

> Because all she had " seen " was how she could have used me

better, " the only one who really knows me " .And how she might use me in future in

this capacity.

>

> To me that's the evil and tragedy of this illness: they only know

how to use people.Whether they are taking hold of you to tear you apart or

latching on to you to keep themselves afloat,they are vampirizing you.Or all

they know how to do is cannabalize whatever qualities you have for the

sustenance of their sickness in the sense of that making it (or them) be " ok " .

>

> Even when it's a " mother " telling her daughter how kind and

compassionate she is that is still *using* her.That kindness and compassion

doens't exist in and of itself or is simply something wonderful about the

daughter--it is there for nada's use.To me,going through life constantly using

others--esp. your own children--is as sad as it is evil.

>

>

>

> --- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " climberkayak "

[Guest guest]

, you are so right as usual - " using " people, attempting to own them

utterly is to me the most evil part of BPD. And oh your poor nada, realizing

she hadn't understood how to get full use of you. Ugh. It's a wonder you

didn't put her out on the side of the road and keep driving. They particularly

take advantage of our compassion and that of others - it's probably one of the

easiest ways to manipulate people who are naturally giving. I wonder what your

nada would have said if you'd asked her, neutrally of course, if she had any

remorse about tearing you down? Another thing that stands out about my nada is

whatever I do give her she feels entitled to, but if someone she doesn't " own "

gives to her she makes a big deal out of it and is so appreciative. I mean why

should she value what she gets from someone she sees as an extension of herself.

> >

> > --- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " kyjohnson40days "

> > > The question I struggle with is this: How much are they the victims of

evil and how much are they the willing participants?

> >

> > Karla, you know what that makes me think of is in the show Supernatural.

The character Dean goes to hell where he is tortured every day and told each day

that if he is willing to take on the role of torturer for the new souls coming

in that he won't have any more pain. In the story it took him forty years

before he became broken down enough to switch sides and the story explores his

deep shame about that.

> >

> > I suspect though that people with PD's who choose to pass the pain along

rather than deal with what was done to them don't feel much shame about it.

They have no awareness really.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Its a hard thing to try to make sense of... mum is aware of what she does and is

using it to get whatever result she wants (sane, aware), but at the same time

there is no remorse whatsoever (insane).

Perhaps its the mix of the two that makes it seem so evil?

Someone with striaght paranoia is not doing their behaviours like a 3yr old

tryng to get their own way - they cant help it and have no control.

Like a lot of other people haven mentioned, my mother will only bring out the

true crazy when she feels safe to do so- around those she feels ok to abuse. She

is able to control it to a large degree - but has no intention of ever getting

help - she likes to behave this way, it works.

Its eerily similar to how I imagine paedophiles think - they know its wrong,

they know it is damaging, but they are only concerned with what they want, and

to hell with the repercussions on the small child in front of them. The other

person is not important at all, other than as something they own, therefore

there is no need to " fix " their behaviour. The only error in their eyes would be

getting caught.

[Guest guest]

Its a hard thing to try to make sense of... mum is aware of what she does and is

using it to get whatever result she wants (sane, aware), but at the same time

there is no remorse whatsoever (insane).

Perhaps its the mix of the two that makes it seem so evil?

Someone with striaght paranoia is not doing their behaviours like a 3yr old

tryng to get their own way - they cant help it and have no control.

Like a lot of other people haven mentioned, my mother will only bring out the

true crazy when she feels safe to do so- around those she feels ok to abuse. She

is able to control it to a large degree - but has no intention of ever getting

help - she likes to behave this way, it works.

Its eerily similar to how I imagine paedophiles think - they know its wrong,

they know it is damaging, but they are only concerned with what they want, and

to hell with the repercussions on the small child in front of them. The other

person is not important at all, other than as something they own, therefore

there is no need to " fix " their behaviour. The only error in their eyes would be

getting caught.

[Guest guest]

Its a hard thing to try to make sense of... mum is aware of what she does and is

using it to get whatever result she wants (sane, aware), but at the same time

there is no remorse whatsoever (insane).

Perhaps its the mix of the two that makes it seem so evil?

Someone with striaght paranoia is not doing their behaviours like a 3yr old

tryng to get their own way - they cant help it and have no control.

Like a lot of other people haven mentioned, my mother will only bring out the

true crazy when she feels safe to do so- around those she feels ok to abuse. She

is able to control it to a large degree - but has no intention of ever getting

help - she likes to behave this way, it works.

Its eerily similar to how I imagine paedophiles think - they know its wrong,

they know it is damaging, but they are only concerned with what they want, and

to hell with the repercussions on the small child in front of them. The other

person is not important at all, other than as something they own, therefore

there is no need to " fix " their behaviour. The only error in their eyes would be

getting caught.

[Guest guest]

Hey,Girlscout,I managed to somehow miss your post earlier but thanks so much for

this--what you said is so sweet

I totally appreciate your kind words! Thank you!!

>

> " Oh, I could have had a V8 "

>

> Great story, great lesson. What the hell? We deserved so much better.

>

> I'm sorry for your loss of your mother and childhood, , but I

> really admire your instrospectivness, your insight, your humor. You are

> amazing.

>

> Girlscout

>

[Guest guest]

Hey,Girlscout,I managed to somehow miss your post earlier but thanks so much for

this--what you said is so sweet

I totally appreciate your kind words! Thank you!!

>

> " Oh, I could have had a V8 "

>

> Great story, great lesson. What the hell? We deserved so much better.

>

> I'm sorry for your loss of your mother and childhood, , but I

> really admire your instrospectivness, your insight, your humor. You are

> amazing.

>

> Girlscout

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, this just answered a question I've been struggling with the couple days.

Thanks you guys. A few years ago my nada was in the hospital and I sacrificed

a great deal of my sanity, well-being, energy, and money to do the " right thing "

by her at that time. She thanked me a few times as if I'd given her a nice

birthday present or something - it was very superficial and showed no

understanding of what I'd actually done for her. Just a few days ago she said

something that showed that she barely valued what I did back then and gave more

credit then and now to what her sister has done for her. Which is a fraction of

what I did or what I'm on the hook for in the future. But her sister is not

part of her " self " ....so if her sister does anything at all for her she treats

it like gold. And me, I'm just the asshole who didn't offer to give her a

kidney and move her to live next door to me.

> >

> > Author Skerrit agrees with you RE your explanation for this behavior

in our bpd parents: being excessively grateful for small attentions/gifts from

friends or acquaintances while ignoring the regular, generous attentions and

care-giving of a loved one:

> >

> > Excerpt from'Meaning from Madness':

> >

> > Basically, borderlines and narcissists live in great fear of being

> > negatively judged by others so they project an image they feel will be

> > acceptable (i.e. mirroring). But they will only do this so long as you

> > fall outside their definition of 'self'. Once you fall within their

> > definition of 'self' (i.e. through marriage or the like) they are no

> > longer motivated to impress you, but to control you so that you ALSO

> > project that image to those outside. All perceived flaws must be

> > eradicated. "

> >

> > So, we, their children, fall within their definition of " self " . As mere

extensions of their own selves, we are *expected* to show them great deference,

obedience and care. We owe it to them. And we have to do it perfectly.

> >

> > As you pointed out, we don't generally thank our arm for bringing a cup to

our lips.

> >

> > -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, this just answered a question I've been struggling with the couple days.

Thanks you guys. A few years ago my nada was in the hospital and I sacrificed

a great deal of my sanity, well-being, energy, and money to do the " right thing "

by her at that time. She thanked me a few times as if I'd given her a nice

birthday present or something - it was very superficial and showed no

understanding of what I'd actually done for her. Just a few days ago she said

something that showed that she barely valued what I did back then and gave more

credit then and now to what her sister has done for her. Which is a fraction of

what I did or what I'm on the hook for in the future. But her sister is not

part of her " self " ....so if her sister does anything at all for her she treats

it like gold. And me, I'm just the asshole who didn't offer to give her a

kidney and move her to live next door to me.

> >

> > Author Skerrit agrees with you RE your explanation for this behavior

in our bpd parents: being excessively grateful for small attentions/gifts from

friends or acquaintances while ignoring the regular, generous attentions and

care-giving of a loved one:

> >

> > Excerpt from'Meaning from Madness':

> >

> > Basically, borderlines and narcissists live in great fear of being

> > negatively judged by others so they project an image they feel will be

> > acceptable (i.e. mirroring). But they will only do this so long as you

> > fall outside their definition of 'self'. Once you fall within their

> > definition of 'self' (i.e. through marriage or the like) they are no

> > longer motivated to impress you, but to control you so that you ALSO

> > project that image to those outside. All perceived flaws must be

> > eradicated. "

> >

> > So, we, their children, fall within their definition of " self " . As mere

extensions of their own selves, we are *expected* to show them great deference,

obedience and care. We owe it to them. And we have to do it perfectly.

> >

> > As you pointed out, we don't generally thank our arm for bringing a cup to

our lips.

> >

> > -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, this just answered a question I've been struggling with the couple days.

Thanks you guys. A few years ago my nada was in the hospital and I sacrificed

a great deal of my sanity, well-being, energy, and money to do the " right thing "

by her at that time. She thanked me a few times as if I'd given her a nice

birthday present or something - it was very superficial and showed no

understanding of what I'd actually done for her. Just a few days ago she said

something that showed that she barely valued what I did back then and gave more

credit then and now to what her sister has done for her. Which is a fraction of

what I did or what I'm on the hook for in the future. But her sister is not

part of her " self " ....so if her sister does anything at all for her she treats

it like gold. And me, I'm just the asshole who didn't offer to give her a

kidney and move her to live next door to me.

> >

> > Author Skerrit agrees with you RE your explanation for this behavior

in our bpd parents: being excessively grateful for small attentions/gifts from

friends or acquaintances while ignoring the regular, generous attentions and

care-giving of a loved one:

> >

> > Excerpt from'Meaning from Madness':

> >

> > Basically, borderlines and narcissists live in great fear of being

> > negatively judged by others so they project an image they feel will be

> > acceptable (i.e. mirroring). But they will only do this so long as you

> > fall outside their definition of 'self'. Once you fall within their

> > definition of 'self' (i.e. through marriage or the like) they are no

> > longer motivated to impress you, but to control you so that you ALSO

> > project that image to those outside. All perceived flaws must be

> > eradicated. "

> >

> > So, we, their children, fall within their definition of " self " . As mere

extensions of their own selves, we are *expected* to show them great deference,

obedience and care. We owe it to them. And we have to do it perfectly.

> >

> > As you pointed out, we don't generally thank our arm for bringing a cup to

our lips.

> >

> > -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

, I just posted some stuff that might also go in this response about my

experience with my nada in the hospital. Much like yours with your fada. It

seems like there's just something deadly about the hospital scenario. Even if

we (KO's) have managed to keep decent boundaries and balance beforehand, once

there is a serious illness it tests everything. Your fada being so grateful to

the balloon giver - yep. So familiar. What killed me was that my nada showed

*genuine* gratitude to these outsiders, a level of which I never saw. One

person asked if they " could get her anything else " when visiting her and my nada

told me that that just meant so much to her that it was " above rubies " . What

she ultimately wanted was someone to serve her.

I have to smile about the part where you were in the spiritual place trying to

straighten out the karma. There are times I've tried that. Often it ends up

with me regretting it. I don't know if it is possible to come from an open and

loving place to relate to someone who has caused so much pain. It's a sad

thing.

One time long ago you mentioned something about " copy souls " - I'd be curious

to know more and how you think it related to personality disorders.

> >

> > , you are so right as usual - " using " people, attempting to own

them utterly is to me the most evil part of BPD. And oh your poor nada,

realizing she hadn't understood how to get full use of you. Ugh. It's a wonder

you didn't put her out on the side of the road and keep driving. They

particularly take advantage of our compassion and that of others - it's probably

one of the easiest ways to manipulate people who are naturally giving. I wonder

what your nada would have said if you'd asked her, neutrally of course, if she

had any remorse about tearing you down? Another thing that stands out about my

nada is whatever I do give her she feels entitled to, but if someone she doesn't

" own " gives to her she makes a big deal out of it and is so appreciative. I

mean why should she value what she gets from someone she sees as an extension of

herself.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, I just posted some stuff that might also go in this response about my

experience with my nada in the hospital. Much like yours with your fada. It

seems like there's just something deadly about the hospital scenario. Even if

we (KO's) have managed to keep decent boundaries and balance beforehand, once

there is a serious illness it tests everything. Your fada being so grateful to

the balloon giver - yep. So familiar. What killed me was that my nada showed

*genuine* gratitude to these outsiders, a level of which I never saw. One

person asked if they " could get her anything else " when visiting her and my nada

told me that that just meant so much to her that it was " above rubies " . What

she ultimately wanted was someone to serve her.

I have to smile about the part where you were in the spiritual place trying to

straighten out the karma. There are times I've tried that. Often it ends up

with me regretting it. I don't know if it is possible to come from an open and

loving place to relate to someone who has caused so much pain. It's a sad

thing.

One time long ago you mentioned something about " copy souls " - I'd be curious

to know more and how you think it related to personality disorders.

> >

> > , you are so right as usual - " using " people, attempting to own

them utterly is to me the most evil part of BPD. And oh your poor nada,

realizing she hadn't understood how to get full use of you. Ugh. It's a wonder

you didn't put her out on the side of the road and keep driving. They

particularly take advantage of our compassion and that of others - it's probably

one of the easiest ways to manipulate people who are naturally giving. I wonder

what your nada would have said if you'd asked her, neutrally of course, if she

had any remorse about tearing you down? Another thing that stands out about my

nada is whatever I do give her she feels entitled to, but if someone she doesn't

" own " gives to her she makes a big deal out of it and is so appreciative. I

mean why should she value what she gets from someone she sees as an extension of

herself.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, I just posted some stuff that might also go in this response about my

experience with my nada in the hospital. Much like yours with your fada. It

seems like there's just something deadly about the hospital scenario. Even if

we (KO's) have managed to keep decent boundaries and balance beforehand, once

there is a serious illness it tests everything. Your fada being so grateful to

the balloon giver - yep. So familiar. What killed me was that my nada showed

*genuine* gratitude to these outsiders, a level of which I never saw. One

person asked if they " could get her anything else " when visiting her and my nada

told me that that just meant so much to her that it was " above rubies " . What

she ultimately wanted was someone to serve her.

I have to smile about the part where you were in the spiritual place trying to

straighten out the karma. There are times I've tried that. Often it ends up

with me regretting it. I don't know if it is possible to come from an open and

loving place to relate to someone who has caused so much pain. It's a sad

thing.

One time long ago you mentioned something about " copy souls " - I'd be curious

to know more and how you think it related to personality disorders.

> >

> > , you are so right as usual - " using " people, attempting to own

them utterly is to me the most evil part of BPD. And oh your poor nada,

realizing she hadn't understood how to get full use of you. Ugh. It's a wonder

you didn't put her out on the side of the road and keep driving. They

particularly take advantage of our compassion and that of others - it's probably

one of the easiest ways to manipulate people who are naturally giving. I wonder

what your nada would have said if you'd asked her, neutrally of course, if she

had any remorse about tearing you down? Another thing that stands out about my

nada is whatever I do give her she feels entitled to, but if someone she doesn't

" own " gives to her she makes a big deal out of it and is so appreciative. I

mean why should she value what she gets from someone she sees as an extension of

herself.

> >

> >

>