New Member

[Guest guest]

Hi. Sandy and

Madison, I am arlene and I was diagnosed with PM last December and I was

completely paralyzed for two months but through prayers and a big faith and

good attitude I was able to fight the disease. Just hold on to your three yr

old daughter, everything is going to be fine and good, just keep your faith and

about IVIG I am pretty sure that the insurance will approved it, I had

undergone 5 times of IVIG and my insurance is not too good but I was approved

for it without paying more than 300 dollars.

I hope and pray

that she will recover soon.

Best Regards ,

Arlene Latayan

Home (714)956-1303

Cell

mikcababes@...

arlenelatayan@...

New Member

Hi, I have joined this group and was told about it

from someone on

another group and she said this group would be

good us. Here is a

little about us. My three year old was

diagnosed with mixed

connective tissue disease, her presenting diseases

are lupus,

dermatomyositis,and scleroderma. She has

been sick for about a year

now. She is on methotrexate and prednisone.

She has been on these

for about three months and now they want to start

her on IVIG. This

is suppose to cost 10,000 dollars each time she

recieves it so we are

waiting on insurance to aprrove it. I am

hoping to meet others that

can relate with these diseases and meds etc.

My daughter is my

world, I have five children and this is so hard, I

just would like to

find out all I can, so I can help my

daughter. Thank you all.

Sandy and Madison

[Guest guest]

Hi. Sandy and

Madison, I am arlene and I was diagnosed with PM last December and I was

completely paralyzed for two months but through prayers and a big faith and

good attitude I was able to fight the disease. Just hold on to your three yr

old daughter, everything is going to be fine and good, just keep your faith and

about IVIG I am pretty sure that the insurance will approved it, I had

undergone 5 times of IVIG and my insurance is not too good but I was approved

for it without paying more than 300 dollars.

I hope and pray

that she will recover soon.

Best Regards ,

Arlene Latayan

Home (714)956-1303

Cell

mikcababes@...

arlenelatayan@...

New Member

Hi, I have joined this group and was told about it

from someone on

another group and she said this group would be

good us. Here is a

little about us. My three year old was

diagnosed with mixed

connective tissue disease, her presenting diseases

are lupus,

dermatomyositis,and scleroderma. She has

been sick for about a year

now. She is on methotrexate and prednisone.

She has been on these

for about three months and now they want to start

her on IVIG. This

is suppose to cost 10,000 dollars each time she

recieves it so we are

waiting on insurance to aprrove it. I am

hoping to meet others that

can relate with these diseases and meds etc.

My daughter is my

world, I have five children and this is so hard, I

just would like to

find out all I can, so I can help my

daughter. Thank you all.

Sandy and Madison

[Guest guest]

Hi. Sandy and

Madison, I am arlene and I was diagnosed with PM last December and I was

completely paralyzed for two months but through prayers and a big faith and

good attitude I was able to fight the disease. Just hold on to your three yr

old daughter, everything is going to be fine and good, just keep your faith and

about IVIG I am pretty sure that the insurance will approved it, I had

undergone 5 times of IVIG and my insurance is not too good but I was approved

for it without paying more than 300 dollars.

I hope and pray

that she will recover soon.

Best Regards ,

Arlene Latayan

Home (714)956-1303

Cell

mikcababes@...

arlenelatayan@...

New Member

Hi, I have joined this group and was told about it

from someone on

another group and she said this group would be

good us. Here is a

little about us. My three year old was

diagnosed with mixed

connective tissue disease, her presenting diseases

are lupus,

dermatomyositis,and scleroderma. She has

been sick for about a year

now. She is on methotrexate and prednisone.

She has been on these

for about three months and now they want to start

her on IVIG. This

is suppose to cost 10,000 dollars each time she

recieves it so we are

waiting on insurance to aprrove it. I am

hoping to meet others that

can relate with these diseases and meds etc.

My daughter is my

world, I have five children and this is so hard, I

just would like to

find out all I can, so I can help my

daughter. Thank you all.

Sandy and Madison

[Guest guest]

Arlene, welcome to our group. By the way were do you live? I am Sherri and I also have PM. I found out last Sept,2001. Sounds like you are doing good. Take care.

Sherri

Arlene Latayan wrote:

Hi. Sandy and Madison, I am arlene and I was diagnosed with PM last December and I was completely paralyzed for two months but through prayers and a big faith and good attitude I was able to fight the disease. Just hold on to your three yr old daughter, everything is going to be fine and good, just keep your faith and about IVIG I am pretty sure that the insurance will approved it, I had undergone 5 times of IVIG and my insurance is not too good but I was approved for it without paying more than 300 dollars.

I hope and pray that she will recover soon.

Best Regards ,

Arlene Latayan

Home (714)956-1303

Cell

mikcababes@...

arlenelatayan@...

-----Original Message-----From: vogelsa2001 Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 9:36 PMTo: OurMyositis Subject: New Member

Hi, I have joined this group and was told about it from someone on another group and she said this group would be good us. Here is a little about us. My three year old was diagnosed with mixed connective tissue disease, her presenting diseases are lupus, dermatomyositis,and scleroderma. She has been sick for about a year now. She is on methotrexate and prednisone. She has been on these for about three months and now they want to start her on IVIG. This is suppose to cost 10,000 dollars each time she recieves it so we are waiting on insurance to aprrove it. I am hoping to meet others that can relate with these diseases and meds etc. My daughter is my world, I have five children and this is so hard, I just would like to find out all I can, so I can help my daughter. Thank you all. Sandy and Madison

[Guest guest]

Arlene, welcome to our group. By the way were do you live? I am Sherri and I also have PM. I found out last Sept,2001. Sounds like you are doing good. Take care.

Sherri

Arlene Latayan wrote:

Hi. Sandy and Madison, I am arlene and I was diagnosed with PM last December and I was completely paralyzed for two months but through prayers and a big faith and good attitude I was able to fight the disease. Just hold on to your three yr old daughter, everything is going to be fine and good, just keep your faith and about IVIG I am pretty sure that the insurance will approved it, I had undergone 5 times of IVIG and my insurance is not too good but I was approved for it without paying more than 300 dollars.

I hope and pray that she will recover soon.

Best Regards ,

Arlene Latayan

Home (714)956-1303

Cell

mikcababes@...

arlenelatayan@...

-----Original Message-----From: vogelsa2001 Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 9:36 PMTo: OurMyositis Subject: New Member

Hi, I have joined this group and was told about it from someone on another group and she said this group would be good us. Here is a little about us. My three year old was diagnosed with mixed connective tissue disease, her presenting diseases are lupus, dermatomyositis,and scleroderma. She has been sick for about a year now. She is on methotrexate and prednisone. She has been on these for about three months and now they want to start her on IVIG. This is suppose to cost 10,000 dollars each time she recieves it so we are waiting on insurance to aprrove it. I am hoping to meet others that can relate with these diseases and meds etc. My daughter is my world, I have five children and this is so hard, I just would like to find out all I can, so I can help my daughter. Thank you all. Sandy and Madison

[Guest guest]

Arlene, welcome to our group. By the way were do you live? I am Sherri and I also have PM. I found out last Sept,2001. Sounds like you are doing good. Take care.

Sherri

Arlene Latayan wrote:

Hi. Sandy and Madison, I am arlene and I was diagnosed with PM last December and I was completely paralyzed for two months but through prayers and a big faith and good attitude I was able to fight the disease. Just hold on to your three yr old daughter, everything is going to be fine and good, just keep your faith and about IVIG I am pretty sure that the insurance will approved it, I had undergone 5 times of IVIG and my insurance is not too good but I was approved for it without paying more than 300 dollars.

I hope and pray that she will recover soon.

Best Regards ,

Arlene Latayan

Home (714)956-1303

Cell

mikcababes@...

arlenelatayan@...

-----Original Message-----From: vogelsa2001 Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 9:36 PMTo: OurMyositis Subject: New Member

Hi, I have joined this group and was told about it from someone on another group and she said this group would be good us. Here is a little about us. My three year old was diagnosed with mixed connective tissue disease, her presenting diseases are lupus, dermatomyositis,and scleroderma. She has been sick for about a year now. She is on methotrexate and prednisone. She has been on these for about three months and now they want to start her on IVIG. This is suppose to cost 10,000 dollars each time she recieves it so we are waiting on insurance to aprrove it. I am hoping to meet others that can relate with these diseases and meds etc. My daughter is my world, I have five children and this is so hard, I just would like to find out all I can, so I can help my daughter. Thank you all. Sandy and Madison

[Guest guest]

,

I don't know if you've ever heard of the term, cachexia, but it is a

condition that develops at the end stages of diseases like Alzheimers,

AIDS, and cancer. These are diseases that have sulfur issues but the AIDS

and cancer research has shown that more directly. Someone with HIV may

have a negative sulfate balance, losing as much as 4 and a half pounds of

excess sulfate (or cysteine equivalence) into the urine a year compared to

someone uninfected on the same sort of diet. This type of loss of a

substance critical to cellular chemistry may be a very basic part of what

makes AIDS such a horrible condition.

What scientists have found in cachexia, is that the body keeps breaking

down its own tissues. Increasing the protein or the calories does not seem

to alter the process at all. I saw that happening in my father who lost

about a hundred pounds during mid to close-to-severe dementia. At the

time, as had been his habit (top weight 280) he was eating a huge amount

of food. They have found in this situation that adding more calories to

someone who is cachexic just leads to putting fat on the tummy, and not to

stopping the body from breaking down its own tissues.

I think I mentioned that I put my father on the epsom salts first on a

hunch because it worked in autism and there were a lot of common features.

I may have mentioned his behavioral and functional improvements. However,

there was something else I did miss that was going on: after we started

the epsom salts, his loss of weight stopped completely. Eventually, I got

a copy of his medical record, and for four years before we started the

epsom salts (the years for which I had records), his weight had been in a

freefall...a very straight line downwards. This happened despite the fact

that I knew he was eating as much as he had ever eaten during that period

of weight loss...maybe even was eating more because after eating he

wouldn't remember that he had just eaten and would eat again! Calories

could not explain this weight loss.

After seeing the positive effects on his behavior and well-being, we kept

up the epsom salts. For the next four years until his death, he maintained

his weight and even seemed to have gained some at the end. That is the

real reason why I started studying cachexia, with the idea that maybe what

may cause cachexia is sulfur deficiency (or sulfate deficiency) Perhaps

the body is self-catabolizing to try to generate enough sulfur for basic

cell processes like cell division and energy and maintenance of tissues. I

think the reason THIS area has not been considered is that in general, the

sulfur chemistry has been ignored because no one knew much about it.

That was background. Now may I ask you a couple of questions?

Is this slowed growth often seen on the ketogenic diet? Does it take some

time to show up?

During this time of slowed growth, what has happened to your child's

muscle? If her muscles seemed to have shrunk and gotten weaker during

this period of time, then it may be that what you are seeing is a process

that is similar to cachexia....in that the body is looking to its own cells

to make up some deficit that it needs for basic cell

chemistry. Ordinarily, the liver and kidneys are the big managers of the

sulfur system, with some help from the gut, both in delivery of cysteine

and methionine from food, and to serve as a repository for storage of

sulfate that is a bit reminscent of what the bones do for our calcium

stores. It may be that when the liver and the gut runs out of sulfate that

the muscles are called upon to convert glutathione or cysteine into

sulfate, as the AIDS article below describes as happening in monkeys with SIV.

In adults, the body cannot conserve anything it needs by stopping

growth. In contrast, in children, growth can be arrested in order to save

the chemistry that goes into growth so that it may be used by more

" maintenance " operations.

You never really hear about cachexia too much in pediatric circles, because

probably what is noticed more is growth failure. (Five articles out of 255

articles about cachexia in AIDS literature are about children, for

instance, but there are 28 articles on growth failure in AIDS.) I've put

an article about AIDS below, to show this point.

The effects of mag. sulfate have almost universally been attributed to

magnesium, but that is NOT because there was research to prove

this. Researchers ignored the possibility that the sulfate side of the

molecule might be responsible for some of the action. I believe their

failure to set up experiments to show this one way or the other comes from

lack of exposure to how the sulfur system works and how sulfate

particularly has effects that are different from detoxification. If you

think all something does is detoxify, then you are not going to do

experiments to show that it does anything else!

Of course, I don't know what the effect would be of adding in epsom salts

baths to someone on the ketogenic diet...whether it would enhance or take

away the effect of the diet, or be totally neutral. I see this as being

similar to the situation with biotin. Whenever the first person thought to

see if bioitn would deal with the hair loss on the diet, they wouldn't have

known whether taking the biotin would change the effectiveness of the

diet. I suppose it didn't!

There also may be some wisdom to supplying sulfur in this growth failure

situation in some other form. Generally, however, people get nervous about

giving children sulfur who have epilepsy because they have studied in vitro

effects of cysteine and its kin on neuronal excitability. Whether this

would actually happen in someone whose whole body is starving for more

sulfur when the brain is protected by the blood brain barrier and more

regulation, I don't know.

By the way, thanks for the article on magnesium... Good stuff!

AIDS. 1998 Jul 30;12(11):1361-9. Related Articles, Links

[Click here to read]

Pediatric AIDS prognosis using somatic growth velocity.

Carey VJ, Yong FH, Frenkel LM, McKinney RE Jr.

Channing Laboratory, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts

02115, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To describe the natural history of somatic growth in HIV

infection by constructing age-specific growth velocity norms and to assess

specific prognostic information available using these norms. DESIGN:

Observations on 1338 HIV-infected children aged 3 months to 15 years who

participated in one of four US clinical trials of pediatric anti-HIV

therapies were pooled; baseline growth velocity data were obtained using

the first 6 months of observation for each child. METHODS: Distributions of

physical growth velocities in HIV-infected children in the Pediatric AIDS

Clinical Trials Group were computed. Statistical smoothing of growth

histories was employed to derive velocity estimates, and quantile

regression analysis of growth velocities was performed to allow comparisons

of growth rates in age- and gender-heterogeneous cohorts in the context of

HIV infection. The quantile regressions provide corrected z-scores for

growth velocity that appropriately compare HIV-infected children with one

another for the purpose of distinguishing more from less favorable

prognoses. RESULTS: Consistent deficits in growth velocity amongst

HIV-infected children were revealed when compared with the Fels Institute

velocity standards. Approximately 33% of height (and 20% of weight) age-

and sex-corrected velocity measurements obtained in the first 6 months of

clinical trial participation lay beneath the corresponding third

percentiles of the Fels reference distributions, which are commonly

regarded as critical indicators of growth failure. Proportional hazards

regression tests indicated that both weight and height velocity contributed

significant information on the risk of death among children with AIDS after

adjusting for antiretroviral therapy received, CD4 cell counts, and age at

trial enrollment. Comparing subjects who differ in initial weight velocity

by one age- and sex-corrected SD, the relative hazard of death was 0.63

(95% confidence interval, 0.55-0.72; P < or = 0.0001) in favor of the child

with greater weight velocity, controlling for antiretroviral therapy

received, age and CD4 cell count at baseline. The analogous hazard ratio

for height velocity was 0.68 (95% confidence interval, 0.57-0.79; P < or =

0.0001). CONCLUSIONS: Suitably normalized growth velocities are informative

and inexpensive criteria for pediatric AIDS prognosis; the growth velocity

distributions presented will be useful for comparing growth effects of new

therapeutic strategies to those of single and combination antiretrovirals

employed for maintenance of pediatric HIV infection in the mid-1990s.

PMID: 9708417 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

AIDS Res Hum Retroviruses. 2000 Feb 10;16(3):203-9. Related Articles, Links

[Click here to read]

Massive loss of sulfur in HIV infection.

Breitkreutz R, Holm S, Pittack N, Beichert M, Babylon A, Yodoi J, Droge W.

Division of Immunochemistry, Deutsches Krebsforschungszentrum,

Heidelberg, Germany.

Skeletal muscle tissue from SIV-infected macaques was previously found

to contain abnormally high sulfate and low glutathione levels indicative of

an excessive cysteine catabolism. We now confirm the peripheral tissue as a

site of massive cysteine catabolism in HIV infection and have determined

the urinary loss of sulfur per time unit. The comparison of the sulfate

concentrations of the arterial and venous blood from the lower extremities

of 16 symptomatic HIV+ patients and 18 HIV- control subjects (study 1)

revealed (1) that the peripheral tissue of HIV+ patients with or without

highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) releases large amounts of

sulfate and (2) that plasma sulfate, thioredoxin, and interleukin-6 levels

are elevated in these patients. A complementary investigation of 64

asymptomatic HIV+ patients and 65 HIV- subjects (study 2) revealed

increased plasma sulfate levels in the asymptomatic patients. The analysis

of the daily urinary excretion of sulfate and urea of another group of 19

HIV+ patients and 22 healthy HIV- subjects (study 3) confirmed (1) that

HIV+ patients experience a massive loss of sulfur and (2) that this loss is

not ameliorated by HAART. The sulfur loss of asymptomatic patients was

equivalent to a mean loss of about 10 g of cysteine per day. If

extrapolated, this would correspond to an alarming negative balance of

approximately 2 kg of cysteine per year under the assumption that the

normal sulfate excretion equivalent to approximately 3 g of cysteine per

day is balanced by a standard Western diet. The abnormally high

sulfate/urea ratio suggests that this process drains largely the

glutathione pool.

PMID: 10710208 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

,

I don't know if you've ever heard of the term, cachexia, but it is a

condition that develops at the end stages of diseases like Alzheimers,

AIDS, and cancer. These are diseases that have sulfur issues but the AIDS

and cancer research has shown that more directly. Someone with HIV may

have a negative sulfate balance, losing as much as 4 and a half pounds of

excess sulfate (or cysteine equivalence) into the urine a year compared to

someone uninfected on the same sort of diet. This type of loss of a

substance critical to cellular chemistry may be a very basic part of what

makes AIDS such a horrible condition.

What scientists have found in cachexia, is that the body keeps breaking

down its own tissues. Increasing the protein or the calories does not seem

to alter the process at all. I saw that happening in my father who lost

about a hundred pounds during mid to close-to-severe dementia. At the

time, as had been his habit (top weight 280) he was eating a huge amount

of food. They have found in this situation that adding more calories to

someone who is cachexic just leads to putting fat on the tummy, and not to

stopping the body from breaking down its own tissues.

I think I mentioned that I put my father on the epsom salts first on a

hunch because it worked in autism and there were a lot of common features.

I may have mentioned his behavioral and functional improvements. However,

there was something else I did miss that was going on: after we started

the epsom salts, his loss of weight stopped completely. Eventually, I got

a copy of his medical record, and for four years before we started the

epsom salts (the years for which I had records), his weight had been in a

freefall...a very straight line downwards. This happened despite the fact

that I knew he was eating as much as he had ever eaten during that period

of weight loss...maybe even was eating more because after eating he

wouldn't remember that he had just eaten and would eat again! Calories

could not explain this weight loss.

After seeing the positive effects on his behavior and well-being, we kept

up the epsom salts. For the next four years until his death, he maintained

his weight and even seemed to have gained some at the end. That is the

real reason why I started studying cachexia, with the idea that maybe what

may cause cachexia is sulfur deficiency (or sulfate deficiency) Perhaps

the body is self-catabolizing to try to generate enough sulfur for basic

cell processes like cell division and energy and maintenance of tissues. I

think the reason THIS area has not been considered is that in general, the

sulfur chemistry has been ignored because no one knew much about it.

That was background. Now may I ask you a couple of questions?

Is this slowed growth often seen on the ketogenic diet? Does it take some

time to show up?

During this time of slowed growth, what has happened to your child's

muscle? If her muscles seemed to have shrunk and gotten weaker during

this period of time, then it may be that what you are seeing is a process

that is similar to cachexia....in that the body is looking to its own cells

to make up some deficit that it needs for basic cell

chemistry. Ordinarily, the liver and kidneys are the big managers of the

sulfur system, with some help from the gut, both in delivery of cysteine

and methionine from food, and to serve as a repository for storage of

sulfate that is a bit reminscent of what the bones do for our calcium

stores. It may be that when the liver and the gut runs out of sulfate that

the muscles are called upon to convert glutathione or cysteine into

sulfate, as the AIDS article below describes as happening in monkeys with SIV.

In adults, the body cannot conserve anything it needs by stopping

growth. In contrast, in children, growth can be arrested in order to save

the chemistry that goes into growth so that it may be used by more

" maintenance " operations.

You never really hear about cachexia too much in pediatric circles, because

probably what is noticed more is growth failure. (Five articles out of 255

articles about cachexia in AIDS literature are about children, for

instance, but there are 28 articles on growth failure in AIDS.) I've put

an article about AIDS below, to show this point.

The effects of mag. sulfate have almost universally been attributed to

magnesium, but that is NOT because there was research to prove

this. Researchers ignored the possibility that the sulfate side of the

molecule might be responsible for some of the action. I believe their

failure to set up experiments to show this one way or the other comes from

lack of exposure to how the sulfur system works and how sulfate

particularly has effects that are different from detoxification. If you

think all something does is detoxify, then you are not going to do

experiments to show that it does anything else!

Of course, I don't know what the effect would be of adding in epsom salts

baths to someone on the ketogenic diet...whether it would enhance or take

away the effect of the diet, or be totally neutral. I see this as being

similar to the situation with biotin. Whenever the first person thought to

see if bioitn would deal with the hair loss on the diet, they wouldn't have

known whether taking the biotin would change the effectiveness of the

diet. I suppose it didn't!

There also may be some wisdom to supplying sulfur in this growth failure

situation in some other form. Generally, however, people get nervous about

giving children sulfur who have epilepsy because they have studied in vitro

effects of cysteine and its kin on neuronal excitability. Whether this

would actually happen in someone whose whole body is starving for more

sulfur when the brain is protected by the blood brain barrier and more

regulation, I don't know.

By the way, thanks for the article on magnesium... Good stuff!

AIDS. 1998 Jul 30;12(11):1361-9. Related Articles, Links

[Click here to read]

Pediatric AIDS prognosis using somatic growth velocity.

Carey VJ, Yong FH, Frenkel LM, McKinney RE Jr.

Channing Laboratory, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts

02115, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To describe the natural history of somatic growth in HIV

infection by constructing age-specific growth velocity norms and to assess

specific prognostic information available using these norms. DESIGN:

Observations on 1338 HIV-infected children aged 3 months to 15 years who

participated in one of four US clinical trials of pediatric anti-HIV

therapies were pooled; baseline growth velocity data were obtained using

the first 6 months of observation for each child. METHODS: Distributions of

physical growth velocities in HIV-infected children in the Pediatric AIDS

Clinical Trials Group were computed. Statistical smoothing of growth

histories was employed to derive velocity estimates, and quantile

regression analysis of growth velocities was performed to allow comparisons

of growth rates in age- and gender-heterogeneous cohorts in the context of

HIV infection. The quantile regressions provide corrected z-scores for

growth velocity that appropriately compare HIV-infected children with one

another for the purpose of distinguishing more from less favorable

prognoses. RESULTS: Consistent deficits in growth velocity amongst

HIV-infected children were revealed when compared with the Fels Institute

velocity standards. Approximately 33% of height (and 20% of weight) age-

and sex-corrected velocity measurements obtained in the first 6 months of

clinical trial participation lay beneath the corresponding third

percentiles of the Fels reference distributions, which are commonly

regarded as critical indicators of growth failure. Proportional hazards

regression tests indicated that both weight and height velocity contributed

significant information on the risk of death among children with AIDS after

adjusting for antiretroviral therapy received, CD4 cell counts, and age at

trial enrollment. Comparing subjects who differ in initial weight velocity

by one age- and sex-corrected SD, the relative hazard of death was 0.63

(95% confidence interval, 0.55-0.72; P < or = 0.0001) in favor of the child

with greater weight velocity, controlling for antiretroviral therapy

received, age and CD4 cell count at baseline. The analogous hazard ratio

for height velocity was 0.68 (95% confidence interval, 0.57-0.79; P < or =

0.0001). CONCLUSIONS: Suitably normalized growth velocities are informative

and inexpensive criteria for pediatric AIDS prognosis; the growth velocity

distributions presented will be useful for comparing growth effects of new

therapeutic strategies to those of single and combination antiretrovirals

employed for maintenance of pediatric HIV infection in the mid-1990s.

PMID: 9708417 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

AIDS Res Hum Retroviruses. 2000 Feb 10;16(3):203-9. Related Articles, Links

[Click here to read]

Massive loss of sulfur in HIV infection.

Breitkreutz R, Holm S, Pittack N, Beichert M, Babylon A, Yodoi J, Droge W.

Division of Immunochemistry, Deutsches Krebsforschungszentrum,

Heidelberg, Germany.

Skeletal muscle tissue from SIV-infected macaques was previously found

to contain abnormally high sulfate and low glutathione levels indicative of

an excessive cysteine catabolism. We now confirm the peripheral tissue as a

site of massive cysteine catabolism in HIV infection and have determined

the urinary loss of sulfur per time unit. The comparison of the sulfate

concentrations of the arterial and venous blood from the lower extremities

of 16 symptomatic HIV+ patients and 18 HIV- control subjects (study 1)

revealed (1) that the peripheral tissue of HIV+ patients with or without

highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) releases large amounts of

sulfate and (2) that plasma sulfate, thioredoxin, and interleukin-6 levels

are elevated in these patients. A complementary investigation of 64

asymptomatic HIV+ patients and 65 HIV- subjects (study 2) revealed

increased plasma sulfate levels in the asymptomatic patients. The analysis

of the daily urinary excretion of sulfate and urea of another group of 19

HIV+ patients and 22 healthy HIV- subjects (study 3) confirmed (1) that

HIV+ patients experience a massive loss of sulfur and (2) that this loss is

not ameliorated by HAART. The sulfur loss of asymptomatic patients was

equivalent to a mean loss of about 10 g of cysteine per day. If

extrapolated, this would correspond to an alarming negative balance of

approximately 2 kg of cysteine per year under the assumption that the

normal sulfate excretion equivalent to approximately 3 g of cysteine per

day is balanced by a standard Western diet. The abnormally high

sulfate/urea ratio suggests that this process drains largely the

glutathione pool.

PMID: 10710208 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

,

I don't know if you've ever heard of the term, cachexia, but it is a

condition that develops at the end stages of diseases like Alzheimers,

AIDS, and cancer. These are diseases that have sulfur issues but the AIDS

and cancer research has shown that more directly. Someone with HIV may

have a negative sulfate balance, losing as much as 4 and a half pounds of

excess sulfate (or cysteine equivalence) into the urine a year compared to

someone uninfected on the same sort of diet. This type of loss of a

substance critical to cellular chemistry may be a very basic part of what

makes AIDS such a horrible condition.

What scientists have found in cachexia, is that the body keeps breaking

down its own tissues. Increasing the protein or the calories does not seem

to alter the process at all. I saw that happening in my father who lost

about a hundred pounds during mid to close-to-severe dementia. At the

time, as had been his habit (top weight 280) he was eating a huge amount

of food. They have found in this situation that adding more calories to

someone who is cachexic just leads to putting fat on the tummy, and not to

stopping the body from breaking down its own tissues.

I think I mentioned that I put my father on the epsom salts first on a

hunch because it worked in autism and there were a lot of common features.

I may have mentioned his behavioral and functional improvements. However,

there was something else I did miss that was going on: after we started

the epsom salts, his loss of weight stopped completely. Eventually, I got

a copy of his medical record, and for four years before we started the

epsom salts (the years for which I had records), his weight had been in a

freefall...a very straight line downwards. This happened despite the fact

that I knew he was eating as much as he had ever eaten during that period

of weight loss...maybe even was eating more because after eating he

wouldn't remember that he had just eaten and would eat again! Calories

could not explain this weight loss.

After seeing the positive effects on his behavior and well-being, we kept

up the epsom salts. For the next four years until his death, he maintained

his weight and even seemed to have gained some at the end. That is the

real reason why I started studying cachexia, with the idea that maybe what

may cause cachexia is sulfur deficiency (or sulfate deficiency) Perhaps

the body is self-catabolizing to try to generate enough sulfur for basic

cell processes like cell division and energy and maintenance of tissues. I

think the reason THIS area has not been considered is that in general, the

sulfur chemistry has been ignored because no one knew much about it.

That was background. Now may I ask you a couple of questions?

Is this slowed growth often seen on the ketogenic diet? Does it take some

time to show up?

During this time of slowed growth, what has happened to your child's

muscle? If her muscles seemed to have shrunk and gotten weaker during

this period of time, then it may be that what you are seeing is a process

that is similar to cachexia....in that the body is looking to its own cells

to make up some deficit that it needs for basic cell

chemistry. Ordinarily, the liver and kidneys are the big managers of the

sulfur system, with some help from the gut, both in delivery of cysteine

and methionine from food, and to serve as a repository for storage of

sulfate that is a bit reminscent of what the bones do for our calcium

stores. It may be that when the liver and the gut runs out of sulfate that

the muscles are called upon to convert glutathione or cysteine into

sulfate, as the AIDS article below describes as happening in monkeys with SIV.

In adults, the body cannot conserve anything it needs by stopping

growth. In contrast, in children, growth can be arrested in order to save

the chemistry that goes into growth so that it may be used by more

" maintenance " operations.

You never really hear about cachexia too much in pediatric circles, because

probably what is noticed more is growth failure. (Five articles out of 255

articles about cachexia in AIDS literature are about children, for

instance, but there are 28 articles on growth failure in AIDS.) I've put

an article about AIDS below, to show this point.

The effects of mag. sulfate have almost universally been attributed to

magnesium, but that is NOT because there was research to prove

this. Researchers ignored the possibility that the sulfate side of the

molecule might be responsible for some of the action. I believe their

failure to set up experiments to show this one way or the other comes from

lack of exposure to how the sulfur system works and how sulfate

particularly has effects that are different from detoxification. If you

think all something does is detoxify, then you are not going to do

experiments to show that it does anything else!

Of course, I don't know what the effect would be of adding in epsom salts

baths to someone on the ketogenic diet...whether it would enhance or take

away the effect of the diet, or be totally neutral. I see this as being

similar to the situation with biotin. Whenever the first person thought to

see if bioitn would deal with the hair loss on the diet, they wouldn't have

known whether taking the biotin would change the effectiveness of the

diet. I suppose it didn't!

There also may be some wisdom to supplying sulfur in this growth failure

situation in some other form. Generally, however, people get nervous about

giving children sulfur who have epilepsy because they have studied in vitro

effects of cysteine and its kin on neuronal excitability. Whether this

would actually happen in someone whose whole body is starving for more

sulfur when the brain is protected by the blood brain barrier and more

regulation, I don't know.

By the way, thanks for the article on magnesium... Good stuff!

AIDS. 1998 Jul 30;12(11):1361-9. Related Articles, Links

[Click here to read]

Pediatric AIDS prognosis using somatic growth velocity.

Carey VJ, Yong FH, Frenkel LM, McKinney RE Jr.

Channing Laboratory, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts

02115, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To describe the natural history of somatic growth in HIV

infection by constructing age-specific growth velocity norms and to assess

specific prognostic information available using these norms. DESIGN:

Observations on 1338 HIV-infected children aged 3 months to 15 years who

participated in one of four US clinical trials of pediatric anti-HIV

therapies were pooled; baseline growth velocity data were obtained using

the first 6 months of observation for each child. METHODS: Distributions of

physical growth velocities in HIV-infected children in the Pediatric AIDS

Clinical Trials Group were computed. Statistical smoothing of growth

histories was employed to derive velocity estimates, and quantile

regression analysis of growth velocities was performed to allow comparisons

of growth rates in age- and gender-heterogeneous cohorts in the context of

HIV infection. The quantile regressions provide corrected z-scores for

growth velocity that appropriately compare HIV-infected children with one

another for the purpose of distinguishing more from less favorable

prognoses. RESULTS: Consistent deficits in growth velocity amongst

HIV-infected children were revealed when compared with the Fels Institute

velocity standards. Approximately 33% of height (and 20% of weight) age-

and sex-corrected velocity measurements obtained in the first 6 months of

clinical trial participation lay beneath the corresponding third

percentiles of the Fels reference distributions, which are commonly

regarded as critical indicators of growth failure. Proportional hazards

regression tests indicated that both weight and height velocity contributed

significant information on the risk of death among children with AIDS after

adjusting for antiretroviral therapy received, CD4 cell counts, and age at

trial enrollment. Comparing subjects who differ in initial weight velocity

by one age- and sex-corrected SD, the relative hazard of death was 0.63

(95% confidence interval, 0.55-0.72; P < or = 0.0001) in favor of the child

with greater weight velocity, controlling for antiretroviral therapy

received, age and CD4 cell count at baseline. The analogous hazard ratio

for height velocity was 0.68 (95% confidence interval, 0.57-0.79; P < or =

0.0001). CONCLUSIONS: Suitably normalized growth velocities are informative

and inexpensive criteria for pediatric AIDS prognosis; the growth velocity

distributions presented will be useful for comparing growth effects of new

therapeutic strategies to those of single and combination antiretrovirals

employed for maintenance of pediatric HIV infection in the mid-1990s.

PMID: 9708417 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

AIDS Res Hum Retroviruses. 2000 Feb 10;16(3):203-9. Related Articles, Links

[Click here to read]

Massive loss of sulfur in HIV infection.

Breitkreutz R, Holm S, Pittack N, Beichert M, Babylon A, Yodoi J, Droge W.

Division of Immunochemistry, Deutsches Krebsforschungszentrum,

Heidelberg, Germany.

Skeletal muscle tissue from SIV-infected macaques was previously found

to contain abnormally high sulfate and low glutathione levels indicative of

an excessive cysteine catabolism. We now confirm the peripheral tissue as a

site of massive cysteine catabolism in HIV infection and have determined

the urinary loss of sulfur per time unit. The comparison of the sulfate

concentrations of the arterial and venous blood from the lower extremities

of 16 symptomatic HIV+ patients and 18 HIV- control subjects (study 1)

revealed (1) that the peripheral tissue of HIV+ patients with or without

highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) releases large amounts of

sulfate and (2) that plasma sulfate, thioredoxin, and interleukin-6 levels

are elevated in these patients. A complementary investigation of 64

asymptomatic HIV+ patients and 65 HIV- subjects (study 2) revealed

increased plasma sulfate levels in the asymptomatic patients. The analysis

of the daily urinary excretion of sulfate and urea of another group of 19

HIV+ patients and 22 healthy HIV- subjects (study 3) confirmed (1) that

HIV+ patients experience a massive loss of sulfur and (2) that this loss is

not ameliorated by HAART. The sulfur loss of asymptomatic patients was

equivalent to a mean loss of about 10 g of cysteine per day. If

extrapolated, this would correspond to an alarming negative balance of

approximately 2 kg of cysteine per year under the assumption that the

normal sulfate excretion equivalent to approximately 3 g of cysteine per

day is balanced by a standard Western diet. The abnormally high

sulfate/urea ratio suggests that this process drains largely the

glutathione pool.

PMID: 10710208 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

Welcome to the list. You will learn lots reading here. Ask whatever

questions come to mind and we will try to help out.

My daughter has been on the diet for 27 months now and we have learned

little by little through the ups and downs of the diet.

Just today I was reminded of how far has come on the diet. She had a

seizure at the bowling alley and another mom commented on how fast she

recovered from the seizure. We forget as time goes on just how long that

phase used to last after a seizure until someone comments about the

quickness of the current recovery. ( used to sleep for a couple hours

after a seizure like she had today).

It may never completely cure your child, but it is an improvement in the

quality of life for many of our children. My daughter got up off the floor

after 2 minutes and went back to finish her game of bowling. That is

something the diet has done for her.

Pam

new member

> Hello to all that are here my name is shanon. my son is justin and

> we are going to start the diet on DEC. 8. I have ordered the book

> but it will not be in for a week so i justed want to resurch as much

> as i could before the day. I thank GOD for the few people i have

> talked with so far. to tell you a bit about my son.

> has schizencephaly(clefs in the brain) some parts didnt form

> he was a twin and she didnt make it he does notwalk sayes few word

> mom-dad-yes -no cummunicate mostly with his eyes and expressions.

> HE has been in hospitol every three to six months with

monion(

> spelling bad and now God has decited to go with things and told

> me it is now time and for the past 2 years he has only been in two

> times with asmua he is now rolling from back to tummy and more

> verbel.

> he has been on phenobarbitol' depicane . klopin, and more to

> counteract the side effects o

f them. he is now off the depicane and

> on zonagram. and my hopes for the diet is to get him off some

> because i see the life in his eyes and the meds hold him down.

> justin has made the doctors back up meany time and i know that sence

> GOD has now siad lets go i have to get ready.he has beat it all frm

> he will never come home to we give him 5 years then 7 and now he is

> 9 and in Aug. he will be 10. THank you for reading just typing this

> gave me encouragement.

>

>

>

>

> " The Ketogenic Diet....a realistic treatment option, NOT just a last

resort! "

>

> List is for parent to parent support only.

> It is important to get medical advice from a professional

keto team!

> Subscribe: ketogenic-subscribe

> Unsubscribe: ketogenic-unsubscribe

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Welcome to the list. You will learn lots reading here. Ask whatever

questions come to mind and we will try to help out.

My daughter has been on the diet for 27 months now and we have learned

little by little through the ups and downs of the diet.

Just today I was reminded of how far has come on the diet. She had a

seizure at the bowling alley and another mom commented on how fast she

recovered from the seizure. We forget as time goes on just how long that

phase used to last after a seizure until someone comments about the

quickness of the current recovery. ( used to sleep for a couple hours

after a seizure like she had today).

It may never completely cure your child, but it is an improvement in the

quality of life for many of our children. My daughter got up off the floor

after 2 minutes and went back to finish her game of bowling. That is

something the diet has done for her.

Pam

new member

> Hello to all that are here my name is shanon. my son is justin and

> we are going to start the diet on DEC. 8. I have ordered the book

> but it will not be in for a week so i justed want to resurch as much

> as i could before the day. I thank GOD for the few people i have

> talked with so far. to tell you a bit about my son.

> has schizencephaly(clefs in the brain) some parts didnt form

> he was a twin and she didnt make it he does notwalk sayes few word

> mom-dad-yes -no cummunicate mostly with his eyes and expressions.

> HE has been in hospitol every three to six months with

monion(

> spelling bad and now God has decited to go with things and told

> me it is now time and for the past 2 years he has only been in two

> times with asmua he is now rolling from back to tummy and more

> verbel.

> he has been on phenobarbitol' depicane . klopin, and more to

> counteract the side effects o

f them. he is now off the depicane and

> on zonagram. and my hopes for the diet is to get him off some

> because i see the life in his eyes and the meds hold him down.

> justin has made the doctors back up meany time and i know that sence

> GOD has now siad lets go i have to get ready.he has beat it all frm

> he will never come home to we give him 5 years then 7 and now he is

> 9 and in Aug. he will be 10. THank you for reading just typing this

> gave me encouragement.

>

>

>

>

> " The Ketogenic Diet....a realistic treatment option, NOT just a last

resort! "

>

> List is for parent to parent support only.

> It is important to get medical advice from a professional

keto team!

> Subscribe: ketogenic-subscribe

> Unsubscribe: ketogenic-unsubscribe

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

welcome!!!!!!!!

hope you find info here that helps---what kind of Ma do you have???

LAura J/ BU

[Guest guest]

welcome!!!!!!!!

hope you find info here that helps---what kind of Ma do you have???

LAura J/ BU

[Guest guest]

welcome to the group . Thank you for sharing your story. I have found this

group to be a very supportive place to share & learn.

mj

>

> Hi, new member here. I am 55, married and living on a truck. I am not new to

IE, I practiced it in the past, when I first read the books in the 1990’s.

Lots of Geneen Roth too. Currently I am reading the Zen of Eating, love the

book, One Bowl and have a few other mindful eating type books at home that are

waiting for the next run.

>

> I firmly believe the concepts of these books are the key to getting in touch

with ourselves, our relationship to food and maintaining a normal and

comfortable weight without obsessing about it. However, all I ever could do was

maintain my weight, even when severely obese. The concept of being intune with

ones body’s cues and eating mindfully will bring the body back to it’s

natural weight may work for those with a small amount of weight to lose, but it

never happened for me. Perhaps my eating was geared towards a heavier body and

my intuition kept me eating just enough to maintain? I do not know.

>

> I went on a diet when both my husband and I went through some major life

changes. I had gained more weight and topped at 317 lbs. I went on a simple

calorie counting diet and in a year, lost 80 lbs. I am now at an 85 pound loss

today, and see it will take at least another year of dieting to lose the

remaining weight (75 more pounds). While I like how I feel with the loss, and I

like eating small amounts of food, I still feel the concept of another year of

counting nutrients as a heavy sigh. Even if I gave up calorie counting, I still

have to count carbs as I have become diabetic from my obesity and I want to stay

off of medication which I can do on a very low carb count.

>

> Why I am here, is that I attempted to do IE last September when I hit my 1

year anniversary with dieting. It just did not come easy to me and the weight

was coming back on because I desired foods that shot my blood glucose readings

to the roof. I went back on my diet mid October and the loss is coming again

and the blood glucose readings are back in a better range for me. This is my

longstanding problem with IE, is that I can find balance and peace with eating,

but I cannot return to a normal weight, nor stay obese for health reasons. I

went IE for 2 years in the 1990’s and my weigh dropped naturally down about 25

pounds (then completely stopped) because I no longer binged. But that does not

work for my overall obesity. Yes, I do know that it is not a weightloss method,

but I believe the body does know what it needs and we have only to carefully

listen.

>

> I had thought I could go back to IE once I had secured enough of a loss to get

mobile again. I am getting there, but have a huge fear of not being able to

leave my diet and do IE and still eventually return to a normal weight. My diet

has been long term and become a way of eating for me that is manageable and I

have no issues with temptations or wanting to binge or cheat. My original idea

was to wait until the maintenance period to experiment with IE and have the

relationship with eating worked on in a positive and mindful way. However, as I

am studying the teachings of the Buddha, I am becoming more aware of mindfulness

and finding that I want to move into this direction now! I do not trust myself

to be able to do it without support and guidance.

>

> I am pondering the wisdom of changing what is working for me when I realize

that perhaps I am not ready to let go of the control and certainty the diet has

provided. I have decided for now, to stay within the framework of my diet until

I have reached my normal weight and practice mindfulness eating what I can eat

as I go along. I have been waiting for hunger before eating, learning the

different degrees of hunger, smelling, tasting, observing the meal before

eating, eating slowly and practicing gratitude for having a meal to nourish my

body. It’s a shift in the right direction and hopefully through meditation

and continuing to learn the lessons I need to know, I will slip further away

from a numbers based diet into intuitive and mindful eating. I am however, not

there yet.

>

> Any suggestions welcome.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

welcome to the group . Thank you for sharing your story. I have found this

group to be a very supportive place to share & learn.

mj

>

> Hi, new member here. I am 55, married and living on a truck. I am not new to

IE, I practiced it in the past, when I first read the books in the 1990’s.

Lots of Geneen Roth too. Currently I am reading the Zen of Eating, love the

book, One Bowl and have a few other mindful eating type books at home that are

waiting for the next run.

>

> I firmly believe the concepts of these books are the key to getting in touch

with ourselves, our relationship to food and maintaining a normal and

comfortable weight without obsessing about it. However, all I ever could do was

maintain my weight, even when severely obese. The concept of being intune with

ones body’s cues and eating mindfully will bring the body back to it’s

natural weight may work for those with a small amount of weight to lose, but it

never happened for me. Perhaps my eating was geared towards a heavier body and

my intuition kept me eating just enough to maintain? I do not know.

>

> I went on a diet when both my husband and I went through some major life

changes. I had gained more weight and topped at 317 lbs. I went on a simple

calorie counting diet and in a year, lost 80 lbs. I am now at an 85 pound loss

today, and see it will take at least another year of dieting to lose the

remaining weight (75 more pounds). While I like how I feel with the loss, and I

like eating small amounts of food, I still feel the concept of another year of

counting nutrients as a heavy sigh. Even if I gave up calorie counting, I still

have to count carbs as I have become diabetic from my obesity and I want to stay

off of medication which I can do on a very low carb count.

>

> Why I am here, is that I attempted to do IE last September when I hit my 1

year anniversary with dieting. It just did not come easy to me and the weight

was coming back on because I desired foods that shot my blood glucose readings

to the roof. I went back on my diet mid October and the loss is coming again

and the blood glucose readings are back in a better range for me. This is my

longstanding problem with IE, is that I can find balance and peace with eating,

but I cannot return to a normal weight, nor stay obese for health reasons. I

went IE for 2 years in the 1990’s and my weigh dropped naturally down about 25

pounds (then completely stopped) because I no longer binged. But that does not

work for my overall obesity. Yes, I do know that it is not a weightloss method,

but I believe the body does know what it needs and we have only to carefully

listen.

>

> I had thought I could go back to IE once I had secured enough of a loss to get

mobile again. I am getting there, but have a huge fear of not being able to

leave my diet and do IE and still eventually return to a normal weight. My diet

has been long term and become a way of eating for me that is manageable and I

have no issues with temptations or wanting to binge or cheat. My original idea

was to wait until the maintenance period to experiment with IE and have the

relationship with eating worked on in a positive and mindful way. However, as I

am studying the teachings of the Buddha, I am becoming more aware of mindfulness

and finding that I want to move into this direction now! I do not trust myself

to be able to do it without support and guidance.

>

> I am pondering the wisdom of changing what is working for me when I realize

that perhaps I am not ready to let go of the control and certainty the diet has

provided. I have decided for now, to stay within the framework of my diet until

I have reached my normal weight and practice mindfulness eating what I can eat

as I go along. I have been waiting for hunger before eating, learning the

different degrees of hunger, smelling, tasting, observing the meal before

eating, eating slowly and practicing gratitude for having a meal to nourish my

body. It’s a shift in the right direction and hopefully through meditation

and continuing to learn the lessons I need to know, I will slip further away

from a numbers based diet into intuitive and mindful eating. I am however, not

there yet.

>

> Any suggestions welcome.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

welcome to the group . Thank you for sharing your story. I have found this

group to be a very supportive place to share & learn.

mj

>

> Hi, new member here. I am 55, married and living on a truck. I am not new to

IE, I practiced it in the past, when I first read the books in the 1990’s.

Lots of Geneen Roth too. Currently I am reading the Zen of Eating, love the

book, One Bowl and have a few other mindful eating type books at home that are

waiting for the next run.

>

> I firmly believe the concepts of these books are the key to getting in touch

with ourselves, our relationship to food and maintaining a normal and

comfortable weight without obsessing about it. However, all I ever could do was

maintain my weight, even when severely obese. The concept of being intune with

ones body’s cues and eating mindfully will bring the body back to it’s

natural weight may work for those with a small amount of weight to lose, but it

never happened for me. Perhaps my eating was geared towards a heavier body and

my intuition kept me eating just enough to maintain? I do not know.

>

> I went on a diet when both my husband and I went through some major life

changes. I had gained more weight and topped at 317 lbs. I went on a simple

calorie counting diet and in a year, lost 80 lbs. I am now at an 85 pound loss

today, and see it will take at least another year of dieting to lose the

remaining weight (75 more pounds). While I like how I feel with the loss, and I

like eating small amounts of food, I still feel the concept of another year of

counting nutrients as a heavy sigh. Even if I gave up calorie counting, I still

have to count carbs as I have become diabetic from my obesity and I want to stay

off of medication which I can do on a very low carb count.

>

> Why I am here, is that I attempted to do IE last September when I hit my 1

year anniversary with dieting. It just did not come easy to me and the weight

was coming back on because I desired foods that shot my blood glucose readings

to the roof. I went back on my diet mid October and the loss is coming again

and the blood glucose readings are back in a better range for me. This is my

longstanding problem with IE, is that I can find balance and peace with eating,

but I cannot return to a normal weight, nor stay obese for health reasons. I

went IE for 2 years in the 1990’s and my weigh dropped naturally down about 25

pounds (then completely stopped) because I no longer binged. But that does not

work for my overall obesity. Yes, I do know that it is not a weightloss method,

but I believe the body does know what it needs and we have only to carefully

listen.

>

> I had thought I could go back to IE once I had secured enough of a loss to get

mobile again. I am getting there, but have a huge fear of not being able to

leave my diet and do IE and still eventually return to a normal weight. My diet

has been long term and become a way of eating for me that is manageable and I

have no issues with temptations or wanting to binge or cheat. My original idea

was to wait until the maintenance period to experiment with IE and have the

relationship with eating worked on in a positive and mindful way. However, as I

am studying the teachings of the Buddha, I am becoming more aware of mindfulness

and finding that I want to move into this direction now! I do not trust myself

to be able to do it without support and guidance.

>

> I am pondering the wisdom of changing what is working for me when I realize

that perhaps I am not ready to let go of the control and certainty the diet has

provided. I have decided for now, to stay within the framework of my diet until

I have reached my normal weight and practice mindfulness eating what I can eat

as I go along. I have been waiting for hunger before eating, learning the

different degrees of hunger, smelling, tasting, observing the meal before

eating, eating slowly and practicing gratitude for having a meal to nourish my

body. It’s a shift in the right direction and hopefully through meditation

and continuing to learn the lessons I need to know, I will slip further away

from a numbers based diet into intuitive and mindful eating. I am however, not

there yet.

>

> Any suggestions welcome.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ahhh yes a visit from the inlaws you only had 3 cookies as result. Thats very good. (Just Kidding) I would agree with you. If you have eaten something and you were not physically hungry when you ate it I would agree that is why you were feeling guilty.

[Guest guest]

Actually, supposedly in OA each person figures out their own food plan with the

help of their Higher Power and sometimes a sponsor. I have heard of people

whose whole food plans were " eat when I'm hungry, stop when I'm full " and who

worked the 12 steps and felt they benefited a great deal from being in OA. But

they are very much the exception, and you do tend to hear a lot of sharing

that's about " abstinence " which to many means abstaining from certain foods or

food behaviors that they've made part of their food plan.

So it's different for everyone, and different meetings are different from each

other too - at some, people sharing seem to talk a lot more about food plans or

abstinence, and at others more about their spiritual growth through working the

12 steps. At most meetings you probably would hear a balance of the two. I

actually love the 12 steps and think they could be helpful for anyone as a tool

for living life, not just hard core addicts (especially when life is feeling

particularly difficult or challenging). But I think right now it's just not

going to work for me to listen at the same time, to people talking about

abstinence as the goal and meaning by that various restrictions that I feel

ready to let go of.

I do think there may be a difference between those of us who've always struggled

with 10, 20, 30 pounds though, and our needs for healing our relationship with

food, from those who are 100+ pounds overweight with many health issues, and

what they need to do to heal their relationship with food. Perhaps for the

latter an addiction model makes sense; perhaps like with most things, there's

not just one right answer for everyone. I don't know, I really don't. But I

think right now, it feels right to try IE and see where it takes me.

> > >

> > > Hi -

> > >

> > > I don't know anything about " OA " or what it is. Can you fill us in?

> > >

> > > - Casey

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Actually, supposedly in OA each person figures out their own food plan with the

help of their Higher Power and sometimes a sponsor. I have heard of people

whose whole food plans were " eat when I'm hungry, stop when I'm full " and who

worked the 12 steps and felt they benefited a great deal from being in OA. But

they are very much the exception, and you do tend to hear a lot of sharing

that's about " abstinence " which to many means abstaining from certain foods or

food behaviors that they've made part of their food plan.

So it's different for everyone, and different meetings are different from each

other too - at some, people sharing seem to talk a lot more about food plans or

abstinence, and at others more about their spiritual growth through working the

12 steps. At most meetings you probably would hear a balance of the two. I

actually love the 12 steps and think they could be helpful for anyone as a tool

for living life, not just hard core addicts (especially when life is feeling

particularly difficult or challenging). But I think right now it's just not

going to work for me to listen at the same time, to people talking about

abstinence as the goal and meaning by that various restrictions that I feel

ready to let go of.

I do think there may be a difference between those of us who've always struggled

with 10, 20, 30 pounds though, and our needs for healing our relationship with

food, from those who are 100+ pounds overweight with many health issues, and

what they need to do to heal their relationship with food. Perhaps for the

latter an addiction model makes sense; perhaps like with most things, there's

not just one right answer for everyone. I don't know, I really don't. But I

think right now, it feels right to try IE and see where it takes me.

> > >

> > > Hi -

> > >

> > > I don't know anything about " OA " or what it is. Can you fill us in?

> > >

> > > - Casey

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Actually, supposedly in OA each person figures out their own food plan with the

help of their Higher Power and sometimes a sponsor. I have heard of people

whose whole food plans were " eat when I'm hungry, stop when I'm full " and who

worked the 12 steps and felt they benefited a great deal from being in OA. But

they are very much the exception, and you do tend to hear a lot of sharing

that's about " abstinence " which to many means abstaining from certain foods or

food behaviors that they've made part of their food plan.

So it's different for everyone, and different meetings are different from each

other too - at some, people sharing seem to talk a lot more about food plans or

abstinence, and at others more about their spiritual growth through working the

12 steps. At most meetings you probably would hear a balance of the two. I

actually love the 12 steps and think they could be helpful for anyone as a tool

for living life, not just hard core addicts (especially when life is feeling

particularly difficult or challenging). But I think right now it's just not

going to work for me to listen at the same time, to people talking about

abstinence as the goal and meaning by that various restrictions that I feel

ready to let go of.

I do think there may be a difference between those of us who've always struggled

with 10, 20, 30 pounds though, and our needs for healing our relationship with

food, from those who are 100+ pounds overweight with many health issues, and

what they need to do to heal their relationship with food. Perhaps for the

latter an addiction model makes sense; perhaps like with most things, there's

not just one right answer for everyone. I don't know, I really don't. But I

think right now, it feels right to try IE and see where it takes me.

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> > > Hi -

> > >

> > > I don't know anything about " OA " or what it is. Can you fill us in?

> > >

> > > - Casey

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I've been in OA twice & the last group I went to was so restrictive that we were

not allowed to mention food during the meetings, any food but especially " binge

foods like chocolate, chips, bread etc) " .

I just couldn't see how I could stay in that environment & do IE so I left &

have stuck with the IE program even though I am struggling with it a bit right

now. I know if I stick with it, I will get there eventually & in the meantime I

am trying to enjoy the journey or at least accept that it will not always be a

straight path. Sometimes there are unexpected turns.

mj

> > > >

> > > > Hi -

> > > >

> > > > I don't know anything about " OA " or what it is. Can you fill us in?

> > > >

> > > > - Casey

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>