Guest guest Posted September 16, 2010 Report Share Posted September 16, 2010 I'm NC, so I'm super glad for that. I will be watching this thread just in case, so I can get tips for if that NC should change! Holly On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 10:05 PM, crazy150345 wrote: > > > Ive noticed that a lot of the posts I read currently are mentioning the > increased nervousness about dealing with upcoming Christmas familt > get-togethers, and what to do over the holiday period to avoid the dramas > that inevitably happen. > > So, I figured Id start a topic where we can share ideas about what to do > over Christmas so we all have some wonderful things to plan and look forward > to, to overshadow the " OMG its 20-30-40 years of horrid Christmas jitters > all over again " . Sound good? > > Here is Aus, it will be another stinking hot, BBQing, shrimp-on-the-barbie, > beer-ing, family-squabbling Christmas. It is the only time of the year I see > them all. I organised with my siblings a few years ago that we would do any > family get-togethers on Christmas Eve, leaving Christmas Day as time to see > partners families, or to catch up with siblings alone (without the nada and > assorted crazies). Getting together in the evening means you only have to > see them for a couple of hours (as opposed to a whole day), and there are so > many wonderful excuses for leaving when you want to (driving alot tomorrow, > Im tired, need to get the kids to bed etc etc). So handy!! > > A few hours is my limit before my patience wears thin, and is also the > limit of the crazies ability to be " nice " . > > I have preplanned conversation topics to bring up when things get a bit > heavy. Bringing out a camera and asking people to move around for a shot is > great for helping some poor bugger stuck in the corner being lectured to. > Move everyone outside for drinks, then back in for food, then back out for > dessert helps to stop crazies from fixating on one person. > > I have all food pre-prepared so nanda cant corner me in the kitchen while > Im cooking - her favourite place for ambush. > > Get an ally to help keep conversation light and to help change topics, and > organise a few signals beforehand to indicate when you are uncomfortable and > need rescuing. Socal butterflies are harder to swat. > > My favourite trick - go sit in the loo when I need a time out. Take regular > breaks through it all, go relex, breathe and collect myself BEFORE I get > stressed to the point of no return (if you go into a bedroom, someone will > notice and bring you back out). > > Christmas Day and for a few days after I will be going to a beach house > with my partners family - to drink and be freaking merry and lie around > getting sunburned. Thats the carrot that will keep me trotting through the > family get-together, I find it easier if I have something wonderful to look > forward to straight after. > > Thats my plan for retaining sanity through Christmas - whats yours? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2010 Report Share Posted September 17, 2010 I love the ideas about herding people in and out of the house or lining up photos so nobody gets cornered. I have this image of Border Collies nipping at the heels of my relatives, keeping those dogies rollin' - head 'em up, move 'em out! Also - ducking into the bathroom. I carry one or two NY Times crosswords in my purse (good way to kill time). Assuming there's more than one loo, one could spend the entire evening in porcelain peace. I used to walk my in-laws' dog around the block to get away from the pre-dinner and post-dinner bedlam at their house. That dog loved me to death - I think she wanted to get away from that mob as much as I did! Now that we're dealing with my aging Nada, my son and I have had good luck with taking her out to lunch a couple of days prior to Christmas - it's a public location, we're limited to an hour or two, she spends time opening a present we bring her, and I can even arrange to pre-pay for the meal (with a credit card) in case she gets nutty and we have to leave. We meet her there, and we park far enough away that she can't follow us to the car. I'm not sure how much longer we can do this, because she's slipping into dementia fast. However, if she's put into a nursing home, that will also limit the amount of time we have to visit her, and there will be staff around to ensure her good behavior. We also make no apologies for planning trips or remote " cabin " holidays, because the long weekends or short vacations are good opportunities to get up to the woods - that gives us a perfect excuse to avoid my husband's family gatherings. Time off from work and school is a precious commodity, so it's not unreasonable to plan short vacations instead of staying in town. What they don't know (that I'm trying to keep them at bay) won't hurt them. > > Ive noticed that a lot of the posts I read currently are mentioning the increased nervousness about dealing with upcoming Christmas familt get-togethers, and what to do over the holiday period to avoid the dramas that inevitably happen. > > So, I figured Id start a topic where we can share ideas about what to do over Christmas so we all have some wonderful things to plan and look forward to, to overshadow the " OMG its 20-30-40 years of horrid Christmas jitters all over again " . Sound good? > > Here is Aus, it will be another stinking hot, BBQing, shrimp-on-the-barbie, beer-ing, family-squabbling Christmas. It is the only time of the year I see them all. I organised with my siblings a few years ago that we would do any family get-togethers on Christmas Eve, leaving Christmas Day as time to see partners families, or to catch up with siblings alone (without the nada and assorted crazies). Getting together in the evening means you only have to see them for a couple of hours (as opposed to a whole day), and there are so many wonderful excuses for leaving when you want to (driving alot tomorrow, Im tired, need to get the kids to bed etc etc). So handy!! > > A few hours is my limit before my patience wears thin, and is also the limit of the crazies ability to be " nice " . > > I have preplanned conversation topics to bring up when things get a bit heavy. Bringing out a camera and asking people to move around for a shot is great for helping some poor bugger stuck in the corner being lectured to. Move everyone outside for drinks, then back in for food, then back out for dessert helps to stop crazies from fixating on one person. > > I have all food pre-prepared so nanda cant corner me in the kitchen while Im cooking - her favourite place for ambush. > > Get an ally to help keep conversation light and to help change topics, and organise a few signals beforehand to indicate when you are uncomfortable and need rescuing. Socal butterflies are harder to swat. > > My favourite trick - go sit in the loo when I need a time out. Take regular breaks through it all, go relex, breathe and collect myself BEFORE I get stressed to the point of no return (if you go into a bedroom, someone will notice and bring you back out). > > Christmas Day and for a few days after I will be going to a beach house with my partners family - to drink and be freaking merry and lie around getting sunburned. Thats the carrot that will keep me trotting through the family get-together, I find it easier if I have something wonderful to look forward to straight after. > > Thats my plan for retaining sanity through Christmas - whats yours? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2010 Report Share Posted September 17, 2010 Ha ha ha, I love the manipulation of the group using the camera to save people from abuse. Its so funny - I do things like that every day in my life. My boyfriend has caught on to it and he likes to watch my skills and laugh. Of course, doing PR and communications, basically I have made my entire life from word and group manipulation. Ha ha ha, that's the joke I tell. Some truth to it too, though not entirely. A lot of what I do is making friends with people And then there is the writing. . . I'm trying not to dismiss my abilities per therapist's orders. Being a KO set me up perfectly to manage disfunctional groups of people in my professional life. It also sets me up to believe there is no value in the things I do. Ok, on the topic of Xmas. This is SUCH a hard time of year for me. And there is always a lot of pressure to spend time with boyfriend's family, which is hard for me. I honestly just find it boring and kind of a waste of time. OMG, is that even okay to say ou tloud? Not that I don't like them for the most part, I just don't have much to say. And I like to spend my time productively even on holidays, so maybe I would enjoy making popcorn balls for the neighbors or something rather than sitting and eating and saying nothing important to each other. . . Religion is always kind of an elephant in the room and we carefully toddle around it. So what I do, is I plan time for me. I often take some time off work. Then I plan and arrange my time off carefully so that I am doing productive, enjoyable things. Like making crafty items to sell, writing for my blog, christmas shopping, getting my hair cut (which I hate but it must be done), taking care of doctors appointments etc.Self care time, right? Last year on Thanksgiving I begged boyfriend not to make me go to his family's. He has one psycho sister who drinks way too much and actually physically pushed me around one day. We told her it wasnt' cool and that was pretty much the end of the relationship, she wouldn't even consider that someone might not like to be forced to go where she wanted them to be. Asking is one thing - but shoving is another. Esp when you are in your 30s for god's sake! It was one of those things that didn't even need to be a big deal - just please don't do that. But she fought back and said it was her right to push if she wanted. Duh. Adult women don't do that f So anyway, last year on thanksgiving we stayed home, made a killer chilli recipe and went to see the latest Twilight movie (ha ha ha vampires and werewolves). I loved it. I just chilled out. No expectations. The boyfriend was a little bummed by it, so I felt kinda bad for him. This year I'm going to do a project to work with kids for Christmas. I want to work with my craft group to teach them to set aside materialism and learn to find joy in making things for others with their hands. And we will teach them the skills. My therapist suggested that my work with kids is very very good for me. She said it helps me realize how innnocent and vulnerable I was when my nada inflicted most of her damage. I've taken to picturing specific kids I've worked with in my mind and thinking about how I would feel if someone mistreated them - and then I try to give myself the same kindness. . .. . So anyway. I started therapy 3 weeks ago to prepare in advance for the difficult holiday and winter season. A lot of my " goodbyes' to my FOO were said around the holidays, and so I think its a difficult time for me. So I'm working on it. What do you guys have planned? Hugs On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 6:53 AM, shirleyspawn wrote: > > > I love the ideas about herding people in and out of the house or lining up > photos so nobody gets cornered. I have this image of Border Collies nipping > at the heels of my relatives, keeping those dogies rollin' - head 'em up, > move 'em out! > > Also - ducking into the bathroom. I carry one or two NY Times crosswords in > my purse (good way to kill time). Assuming there's more than one loo, one > could spend the entire evening in porcelain peace. > > I used to walk my in-laws' dog around the block to get away from the > pre-dinner and post-dinner bedlam at their house. That dog loved me to death > - I think she wanted to get away from that mob as much as I did! > > Now that we're dealing with my aging Nada, my son and I have had good luck > with taking her out to lunch a couple of days prior to Christmas - it's a > public location, we're limited to an hour or two, she spends time opening a > present we bring her, and I can even arrange to pre-pay for the meal (with a > credit card) in case she gets nutty and we have to leave. We meet her there, > and we park far enough away that she can't follow us to the car. I'm not > sure how much longer we can do this, because she's slipping into dementia > fast. However, if she's put into a nursing home, that will also limit the > amount of time we have to visit her, and there will be staff around to > ensure her good behavior. > > We also make no apologies for planning trips or remote " cabin " holidays, > because the long weekends or short vacations are good opportunities to get > up to the woods - that gives us a perfect excuse to avoid my husband's > family gatherings. Time off from work and school is a precious commodity, so > it's not unreasonable to plan short vacations instead of staying in town. > What they don't know (that I'm trying to keep them at bay) won't hurt them. > > > > > > > > Ive noticed that a lot of the posts I read currently are mentioning the > increased nervousness about dealing with upcoming Christmas familt > get-togethers, and what to do over the holiday period to avoid the dramas > that inevitably happen. > > > > So, I figured Id start a topic where we can share ideas about what to do > over Christmas so we all have some wonderful things to plan and look forward > to, to overshadow the " OMG its 20-30-40 years of horrid Christmas jitters > all over again " . Sound good? > > > > Here is Aus, it will be another stinking hot, BBQing, > shrimp-on-the-barbie, beer-ing, family-squabbling Christmas. It is the only > time of the year I see them all. I organised with my siblings a few years > ago that we would do any family get-togethers on Christmas Eve, leaving > Christmas Day as time to see partners families, or to catch up with siblings > alone (without the nada and assorted crazies). Getting together in the > evening means you only have to see them for a couple of hours (as opposed to > a whole day), and there are so many wonderful excuses for leaving when you > want to (driving alot tomorrow, Im tired, need to get the kids to bed etc > etc). So handy!! > > > > A few hours is my limit before my patience wears thin, and is also the > limit of the crazies ability to be " nice " . > > > > I have preplanned conversation topics to bring up when things get a bit > heavy. Bringing out a camera and asking people to move around for a shot is > great for helping some poor bugger stuck in the corner being lectured to. > Move everyone outside for drinks, then back in for food, then back out for > dessert helps to stop crazies from fixating on one person. > > > > I have all food pre-prepared so nanda cant corner me in the kitchen while > Im cooking - her favourite place for ambush. > > > > Get an ally to help keep conversation light and to help change topics, > and organise a few signals beforehand to indicate when you are uncomfortable > and need rescuing. Socal butterflies are harder to swat. > > > > My favourite trick - go sit in the loo when I need a time out. Take > regular breaks through it all, go relex, breathe and collect myself BEFORE I > get stressed to the point of no return (if you go into a bedroom, someone > will notice and bring you back out). > > > > Christmas Day and for a few days after I will be going to a beach house > with my partners family - to drink and be freaking merry and lie around > getting sunburned. Thats the carrot that will keep me trotting through the > family get-together, I find it easier if I have something wonderful to look > forward to straight after. > > > > Thats my plan for retaining sanity through Christmas - whats yours? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2010 Report Share Posted September 17, 2010 a friend of mine always falls back on serving in a soup kitchen if things with her family get too bad. Usually around here I can just slip out which I almost always do. People really don't notice since I'm not around much anyway. But I always keep notices about soup kitchens that need help on that day just in case. > > Ive noticed that a lot of the posts I read currently are mentioning the increased nervousness about dealing with upcoming Christmas familt get-togethers, and what to do over the holiday period to avoid the dramas that inevitably happen. > > So, I figured Id start a topic where we can share ideas about what to do over Christmas so we all have some wonderful things to plan and look forward to, to overshadow the " OMG its 20-30-40 years of horrid Christmas jitters all over again " . Sound good? > > Here is Aus, it will be another stinking hot, BBQing, shrimp-on-the-barbie, beer-ing, family-squabbling Christmas. It is the only time of the year I see them all. I organised with my siblings a few years ago that we would do any family get-togethers on Christmas Eve, leaving Christmas Day as time to see partners families, or to catch up with siblings alone (without the nada and assorted crazies). Getting together in the evening means you only have to see them for a couple of hours (as opposed to a whole day), and there are so many wonderful excuses for leaving when you want to (driving alot tomorrow, Im tired, need to get the kids to bed etc etc). So handy!! > > A few hours is my limit before my patience wears thin, and is also the limit of the crazies ability to be " nice " . > > I have preplanned conversation topics to bring up when things get a bit heavy. Bringing out a camera and asking people to move around for a shot is great for helping some poor bugger stuck in the corner being lectured to. Move everyone outside for drinks, then back in for food, then back out for dessert helps to stop crazies from fixating on one person. > > I have all food pre-prepared so nanda cant corner me in the kitchen while Im cooking - her favourite place for ambush. > > Get an ally to help keep conversation light and to help change topics, and organise a few signals beforehand to indicate when you are uncomfortable and need rescuing. Socal butterflies are harder to swat. > > My favourite trick - go sit in the loo when I need a time out. Take regular breaks through it all, go relex, breathe and collect myself BEFORE I get stressed to the point of no return (if you go into a bedroom, someone will notice and bring you back out). > > Christmas Day and for a few days after I will be going to a beach house with my partners family - to drink and be freaking merry and lie around getting sunburned. Thats the carrot that will keep me trotting through the family get-together, I find it easier if I have something wonderful to look forward to straight after. > > Thats my plan for retaining sanity through Christmas - whats yours? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2010 Report Share Posted September 19, 2010 hehe - I sure am the Border Collie of the family!! I try to make it as un-obvious as possible. I can handle the boyfriends family no problem, but the one thing that stresses me out more than nada even - is bratty children. Anyone else find this about themselves?? My nada used to beat us for bad manners and behaving badly in public, and now I CANT STAND misbehaving kids, it drives me nuts. My neice is a very very horrid child (has been from the age of 2-16)- Im always keeping one eye on her during Christmas dinner because she will try to slip away to go through my belongings and steal things. She is violent, foul mouthed, and a pain in the ass. So that adds to my family " jitters " . I wish I didnt have to have that monster in my house. Then on the boyfriends side he has a nephew (5yrs) that is a good kid - but his parents have allowed him to rule the house. He is a manipulative little brat that knows if he screams loud enough or snatches something quick enough out of your hands, he can have whatever he likes. Drives me insane. That is the only thing that makes seeing my partners family uncomfortable - I have to watch this kid manipulate everyone and carry on like a little dictator. Perhaps they just remind me of nada?? Dont know.. > > > > Ive noticed that a lot of the posts I read currently are mentioning the increased nervousness about dealing with upcoming Christmas familt get-togethers, and what to do over the holiday period to avoid the dramas that inevitably happen. > > > > So, I figured Id start a topic where we can share ideas about what to do over Christmas so we all have some wonderful things to plan and look forward to, to overshadow the " OMG its 20-30-40 years of horrid Christmas jitters all over again " . Sound good? > > > > Here is Aus, it will be another stinking hot, BBQing, shrimp-on-the-barbie, beer-ing, family-squabbling Christmas. It is the only time of the year I see them all. I organised with my siblings a few years ago that we would do any family get-togethers on Christmas Eve, leaving Christmas Day as time to see partners families, or to catch up with siblings alone (without the nada and assorted crazies). Getting together in the evening means you only have to see them for a couple of hours (as opposed to a whole day), and there are so many wonderful excuses for leaving when you want to (driving alot tomorrow, Im tired, need to get the kids to bed etc etc). So handy!! > > > > A few hours is my limit before my patience wears thin, and is also the limit of the crazies ability to be " nice " . > > > > I have preplanned conversation topics to bring up when things get a bit heavy. Bringing out a camera and asking people to move around for a shot is great for helping some poor bugger stuck in the corner being lectured to. Move everyone outside for drinks, then back in for food, then back out for dessert helps to stop crazies from fixating on one person. > > > > I have all food pre-prepared so nanda cant corner me in the kitchen while Im cooking - her favourite place for ambush. > > > > Get an ally to help keep conversation light and to help change topics, and organise a few signals beforehand to indicate when you are uncomfortable and need rescuing. Socal butterflies are harder to swat. > > > > My favourite trick - go sit in the loo when I need a time out. Take regular breaks through it all, go relex, breathe and collect myself BEFORE I get stressed to the point of no return (if you go into a bedroom, someone will notice and bring you back out). > > > > Christmas Day and for a few days after I will be going to a beach house with my partners family - to drink and be freaking merry and lie around getting sunburned. Thats the carrot that will keep me trotting through the family get-together, I find it easier if I have something wonderful to look forward to straight after. > > > > Thats my plan for retaining sanity through Christmas - whats yours? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2010 Report Share Posted September 19, 2010 hehe - I sure am the Border Collie of the family!! I try to make it as un-obvious as possible. I can handle the boyfriends family no problem, but the one thing that stresses me out more than nada even - is bratty children. Anyone else find this about themselves?? My nada used to beat us for bad manners and behaving badly in public, and now I CANT STAND misbehaving kids, it drives me nuts. My neice is a very very horrid child (has been from the age of 2-16)- Im always keeping one eye on her during Christmas dinner because she will try to slip away to go through my belongings and steal things. She is violent, foul mouthed, and a pain in the ass. So that adds to my family " jitters " . I wish I didnt have to have that monster in my house. Then on the boyfriends side he has a nephew (5yrs) that is a good kid - but his parents have allowed him to rule the house. He is a manipulative little brat that knows if he screams loud enough or snatches something quick enough out of your hands, he can have whatever he likes. Drives me insane. That is the only thing that makes seeing my partners family uncomfortable - I have to watch this kid manipulate everyone and carry on like a little dictator. Perhaps they just remind me of nada?? Dont know.. > > > > Ive noticed that a lot of the posts I read currently are mentioning the increased nervousness about dealing with upcoming Christmas familt get-togethers, and what to do over the holiday period to avoid the dramas that inevitably happen. > > > > So, I figured Id start a topic where we can share ideas about what to do over Christmas so we all have some wonderful things to plan and look forward to, to overshadow the " OMG its 20-30-40 years of horrid Christmas jitters all over again " . Sound good? > > > > Here is Aus, it will be another stinking hot, BBQing, shrimp-on-the-barbie, beer-ing, family-squabbling Christmas. It is the only time of the year I see them all. I organised with my siblings a few years ago that we would do any family get-togethers on Christmas Eve, leaving Christmas Day as time to see partners families, or to catch up with siblings alone (without the nada and assorted crazies). Getting together in the evening means you only have to see them for a couple of hours (as opposed to a whole day), and there are so many wonderful excuses for leaving when you want to (driving alot tomorrow, Im tired, need to get the kids to bed etc etc). So handy!! > > > > A few hours is my limit before my patience wears thin, and is also the limit of the crazies ability to be " nice " . > > > > I have preplanned conversation topics to bring up when things get a bit heavy. Bringing out a camera and asking people to move around for a shot is great for helping some poor bugger stuck in the corner being lectured to. Move everyone outside for drinks, then back in for food, then back out for dessert helps to stop crazies from fixating on one person. > > > > I have all food pre-prepared so nanda cant corner me in the kitchen while Im cooking - her favourite place for ambush. > > > > Get an ally to help keep conversation light and to help change topics, and organise a few signals beforehand to indicate when you are uncomfortable and need rescuing. Socal butterflies are harder to swat. > > > > My favourite trick - go sit in the loo when I need a time out. Take regular breaks through it all, go relex, breathe and collect myself BEFORE I get stressed to the point of no return (if you go into a bedroom, someone will notice and bring you back out). > > > > Christmas Day and for a few days after I will be going to a beach house with my partners family - to drink and be freaking merry and lie around getting sunburned. Thats the carrot that will keep me trotting through the family get-together, I find it easier if I have something wonderful to look forward to straight after. > > > > Thats my plan for retaining sanity through Christmas - whats yours? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2010 Report Share Posted September 19, 2010 I don't think there's anything crazy or " damaged by Nada " about disliking bratty kids. In fact, I'm pretty sure everybody detests these little blights on the landscape. People who have their own kids are more inured to the noise and energy level (or maybe we're just tired...) But yes, brats are worse than normal kids. But I have to ask - if there's a 16 year old who is going through your stuff and stealing things, why is it somehow required that you let her into your house? I don't care if it's Christmas, July 4th, or Granny's funeral - I don't let thieves (or drunks, or addicts) into my home. If I have to lock up my jewelry and count the spoons before and after your visit, sorry, you're not welcome. Go eat at Denny's. Same deal with the younger brat. Maybe it's time to let THEM host the holidays. Then book yourself a cruise for that week. Really, parents do their kids a disservice by allowing them to act like that. I know little kids get all amped up on candy and adrenaline on Christmas, but that's why we have back yards and Frisbees. Letting them run rampant around somebody else's crowded house is asking way too much. I don't think I'd hesitate to ask the brat's parents " Could you please take Junior outside to play for a while? Let's let him run off some of that energy before we sit down to dinner. " Alternatively, tell BF he has to be in charge of child herding this holiday, and make sure he has some plans for a loooooong game of family soccer before and after dinner. > > > > > > Ive noticed that a lot of the posts I read currently are mentioning the increased nervousness about dealing with upcoming Christmas familt get-togethers, and what to do over the holiday period to avoid the dramas that inevitably happen. > > > > > > So, I figured Id start a topic where we can share ideas about what to do over Christmas so we all have some wonderful things to plan and look forward to, to overshadow the " OMG its 20-30-40 years of horrid Christmas jitters all over again " . Sound good? > > > > > > Here is Aus, it will be another stinking hot, BBQing, shrimp-on-the-barbie, beer-ing, family-squabbling Christmas. It is the only time of the year I see them all. I organised with my siblings a few years ago that we would do any family get-togethers on Christmas Eve, leaving Christmas Day as time to see partners families, or to catch up with siblings alone (without the nada and assorted crazies). Getting together in the evening means you only have to see them for a couple of hours (as opposed to a whole day), and there are so many wonderful excuses for leaving when you want to (driving alot tomorrow, Im tired, need to get the kids to bed etc etc). So handy!! > > > > > > A few hours is my limit before my patience wears thin, and is also the limit of the crazies ability to be " nice " . > > > > > > I have preplanned conversation topics to bring up when things get a bit heavy. Bringing out a camera and asking people to move around for a shot is great for helping some poor bugger stuck in the corner being lectured to. Move everyone outside for drinks, then back in for food, then back out for dessert helps to stop crazies from fixating on one person. > > > > > > I have all food pre-prepared so nanda cant corner me in the kitchen while Im cooking - her favourite place for ambush. > > > > > > Get an ally to help keep conversation light and to help change topics, and organise a few signals beforehand to indicate when you are uncomfortable and need rescuing. Socal butterflies are harder to swat. > > > > > > My favourite trick - go sit in the loo when I need a time out. Take regular breaks through it all, go relex, breathe and collect myself BEFORE I get stressed to the point of no return (if you go into a bedroom, someone will notice and bring you back out). > > > > > > Christmas Day and for a few days after I will be going to a beach house with my partners family - to drink and be freaking merry and lie around getting sunburned. Thats the carrot that will keep me trotting through the family get-together, I find it easier if I have something wonderful to look forward to straight after. > > > > > > Thats my plan for retaining sanity through Christmas - whats yours? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 I dunno, I seem to be the only person who dislikes being around these kids to the point of being severely uncomfortable. Everyone else just says " oh, they are just children, he doesnt realise what he's doing " . I remember having to do a lot of thinking and planning so I didnt get in trouble from mum from a very young age - anyone who thinks a 5 year old is not cabable of understanding what they are doing is very mistaken in my mind!!! A lot of people unfortuately seem to confuse " dont hit your child " with " dont ever give direction or limits to your child " . My neice has never, to this point, been in my current house. I refuse to babysit or visit. I get too stressed and I find myself wanting to smack the living daylights out of her - so I stay away! When she visited nada ALONE for a weekend (like noone could imagine what was going to happen) mum had her pinned on the floor in a headlock within a day. That kid makes anyone lose their cool, but with nada it was a nuclear explosion. Hopefully Christmas wont be at my house, but if it is I will do a lot of planning to keep it as painless as possible - including locking up all my valuables. I figure if I do it this year thats my obligation taken care of for the next 5 years. I cant ban her from coming along to dinner, but if she does anything to annoy me I am quite happy to demand her mother take her home immediately. And I will be watching like a hawk. I had a good giggle over the mental image of her stealing spoons from me!!! For some reason, that is hilarious! > > I don't think there's anything crazy or " damaged by Nada " about disliking bratty kids. In fact, I'm pretty sure everybody detests these little blights on the landscape. People who have their own kids are more inured to the noise and energy level (or maybe we're just tired...) But yes, brats are worse than normal kids. > > But I have to ask - if there's a 16 year old who is going through your stuff and stealing things, why is it somehow required that you let her into your house? I don't care if it's Christmas, July 4th, or Granny's funeral - I don't let thieves (or drunks, or addicts) into my home. If I have to lock up my jewelry and count the spoons before and after your visit, sorry, you're not welcome. Go eat at Denny's. > > Same deal with the younger brat. Maybe it's time to let THEM host the holidays. Then book yourself a cruise for that week. > > Really, parents do their kids a disservice by allowing them to act like that. I know little kids get all amped up on candy and adrenaline on Christmas, but that's why we have back yards and Frisbees. Letting them run rampant around somebody else's crowded house is asking way too much. I don't think I'd hesitate to ask the brat's parents " Could you please take Junior outside to play for a while? Let's let him run off some of that energy before we sit down to dinner. " Alternatively, tell BF he has to be in charge of child herding this holiday, and make sure he has some plans for a loooooong game of family soccer before and after dinner. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 Here's a glimmer of hope (if you can call it that) - the five year old will have to deal with first-grade teachers in the next year. The sixteen-year-old has about two more years before she's tried as an adult for stealing. Both of them are headed for a reckoning with authority figures who WON'T think they're " cute, " " just energetic, " or " spirited. " At that point, the school psychologists, or juvie judges, or somebody who's bigger and meaner than they are - will make it clear that their behavior is unacceptable. My husband's brother's kids (aka the " hideous in-laws " ) were like this. I tried and tried to talk to my MIL and FIL. I talked to SIL (their mom) about them, to no avail. I finally had to tell BIL that I couldn't have my (elementary school aged) son around his (teenaged) cousin because the older boy had been kicked out of every school in their county for outrageous and threatening behavior, and was in the county jail for theft. And then BIL complained about my " attitude " to FIL and my husband - and I was berated for stirring things up. Sigh. So now, at long last, my husband and his brother (the kids' father) are finally approaching my " not in my house " attitude - but it's way too late. The kids (both in their early twenties) are high school dropouts, the girl is a welfare queen with several abusive baby-daddies, the boy will probably never hold a steady job. They grew up in a two-parent home in the 'burbs and had access to extracurricular activities, summer camp - all the usual extras. There was absolutely no reason for them to wind up like this - except that their parents never demanded that they behave themselves. The kids ran the show until they ran themselves right off the rails. It's not like I relish the idea of these kids coming to a bad end - it's just that it's so PREDICTABLE. Parenting is hard work and takes resilience, tenacity, and absolute devotion, but come on, it's not rocket science. > > > > I don't think there's anything crazy or " damaged by Nada " about disliking bratty kids. In fact, I'm pretty sure everybody detests these little blights on the landscape. People who have their own kids are more inured to the noise and energy level (or maybe we're just tired...) But yes, brats are worse than normal kids. > > > > But I have to ask - if there's a 16 year old who is going through your stuff and stealing things, why is it somehow required that you let her into your house? I don't care if it's Christmas, July 4th, or Granny's funeral - I don't let thieves (or drunks, or addicts) into my home. If I have to lock up my jewelry and count the spoons before and after your visit, sorry, you're not welcome. Go eat at Denny's. > > > > Same deal with the younger brat. Maybe it's time to let THEM host the holidays. Then book yourself a cruise for that week. > > > > Really, parents do their kids a disservice by allowing them to act like that. I know little kids get all amped up on candy and adrenaline on Christmas, but that's why we have back yards and Frisbees. Letting them run rampant around somebody else's crowded house is asking way too much. I don't think I'd hesitate to ask the brat's parents " Could you please take Junior outside to play for a while? Let's let him run off some of that energy before we sit down to dinner. " Alternatively, tell BF he has to be in charge of child herding this holiday, and make sure he has some plans for a loooooong game of family soccer before and after dinner. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 I dunno. I nanny for a 5yo boy, and while I love him dearly...he's a typical 5yo boy. If he is overtired (which we cannot always control) he gets on an adrenaline surge that makes it very very difficult for him to control his actions, even when he knows that whacking his little sisters with his light saber is 1. wrong and 2. never ever allowed. But while he may realize that the action is wrong, he's 5 and lacks the brain development to be able to understand why he behaves this way or that. And that natural impulsivity really does mean that they act without thinking...a totally age appropriate tendency. In other words, a 5 year old can understand that the grown up said this or that is not allowed, but physically can lack the self control to follow that. Much of that is simply neurological development...our brains continue developing well past childhood. The typical 5 year old lacks the ability to think a situation through, consider all the possible outcomes, and then make a choice. Going by Piaget's stages of cognitive development, that's a skill found in the formal operations stage...a stage that doesn't begin until puberty. While some of us may have had to develop those skills very young in order to survive, most children do *not*...and SHOULD not...have to do that. Ninera > > Subject: Re: Christmas Ideas!! > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Monday, September 20, 2010, 8:01 AM > I dunno, I seem to be the only person > who dislikes being around these kids to the point of being > severely uncomfortable. Everyone else just says " oh, they > are just children, he doesnt realise what he's doing " . > I remember having to do a lot of thinking and planning so I > didnt get in trouble from mum from a very young age -Â > anyone who thinks a 5 year old is not cabable of > understanding what they are doing is very mistaken in my > mind!!! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 I find the whole subject of child developmental stages very interesting. If I may ask, if the 5-year-old you nanny were to whack/hurt his sibling with the light-sabre, how would you handle that? Would he get a time-out? Would you take the toy away from him for a while, and he has to earn it back? What is an appropriate way to parent a 5 year old in that particular situation: he's over-tired, on an adrenaline rush and misbehaving/acting out toward a sibling. Like others here, I know all too well what the inappropriate response would have been if I'd dared to do anything like that around my nada. My little Sister and I were mostly robot-zombie children, too terrorized by fear of our nada to misbehave so blatantly. We would have had our heads thumped and been knocked to the floor, or our faces slapped. We would have gotten screamed at, called horrible names, and (depending on how frustrated and enraged nada felt at the moment) a hard spanking or even a beating with the belt. Thanks, -Annie > > I dunno. > > I nanny for a 5yo boy, and while I love him dearly...he's a typical 5yo boy. If he is overtired (which we cannot always control) he gets on an adrenaline surge that makes it very very difficult for him to control his actions, even when he knows that whacking his little sisters with his light saber is 1. wrong and 2. never ever allowed. But while he may realize that the action is wrong, he's 5 and lacks the brain development to be able to understand why he behaves this way or that. And that natural impulsivity really does mean that they act without thinking...a totally age appropriate tendency. > > In other words, a 5 year old can understand that the grown up said this or that is not allowed, but physically can lack the self control to follow that. Much of that is simply neurological development...our brains continue developing well past childhood. The typical 5 year old lacks the ability to think a situation through, consider all the possible outcomes, and then make a choice. Going by Piaget's stages of cognitive development, that's a skill found in the formal operations stage...a stage that doesn't begin until puberty. > > While some of us may have had to develop those skills very young in order to survive, most children do *not*...and SHOULD not...have to do that. > > Ninera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 Ask away. :-) We have multiple systems in place. I don't subscribe to any one " method " so to speak other than the " never ever hit them " method. If I had to pick " methodology " I'd say we use a mixture of Love & Logic, Playful Parenting, and Positive Discipline. But mostly, I start from the premise that these are tiny human beings with a full spectrum of emotions and needs, but a less than complete ability to comprehend and communicate those emotions and needs...they perceive the world differently because their brains are physically different from the adults. In any situation with them, I allow them their feelings...validate what they are feeling (no why's...just " you are really mad right now " " you are really sad right now " etc)...state the unacceptable behaviour...and help them come up with acceptable ways to handle that situation. Sometimes we have to practice (role play) the desired behaviours...but I make the fun and playful, not punitive and forced. This particular 5 year old...he's a challenge, but in totally understandable ways. I call him the Little Litigator online (I don't like using their names with people I don't know!). He is exceptionally bright with regard to logic/reason. As is true with most very bright children, he has a hard time with inconsistency and tends to be very black/white in his thinking (tough for me to deal with, considering nada's tendency to that...I have to remind myself all the time that this is TYPICAL of a bright child and not indicative that he's going to have BPD!). So he has to test and challenge all the boundaries we give him, and if we slip with something once he gets confused. Not necessarily naughty...but a little confused and tests some more. He handles it really well if we tell him where the boundaries are and EXACTLY what the natural consequences will be if he breaks them. And, he likes to know what he CAN do. Like...the rule is no running on the main floors of the house. He CAN run: outside in the yard, at the playground, or in the basement if all the toys are picked up. Same with really active physical behaviour (he has, I greatly suspect, some sensory issues with regard to his proprioceptive sense.) So instead of a lot of " Stop that! " it's a lot of " If you want to jump around, you need to go in the basement to do it " . Really, the first step is preventing the hitting to begin with. I always say...there is NO substitute for knowing YOUR kid. It doesn't matter what methods you use or what your neighbor does or what worked for your cousin...you have to know YOUR kid. You do that by playing with them, entering their world, paying attention to how they express themselves. (Playful Parenting is a great book for that). And know what your child is truly capable of. I know when the Little Litigator is getting revved up because he's overtired, or really excited, or whatever. I'll remind him gently, " I know, it's so exciting! Let's remember to make good choices! " If I see him (or one of the girls) getting close to bad choices...I remind them of the expectation, consequence, and " Remember the last time you did this? Was that fun to have to lose playtime/that toy/clean it up by yourself? " They did a study of preschoolers a couple of years ago that showed that they are not so great at predicting events, but they can REMEMBER events...so reminding them of the past experience is far more effective than telling them the future possibilities. " Remember the time you fell down the stairs and it hurt? " is far more effective than " If you keep playing on the stairs/running on the stairs, you're going to fall! " If I know he's overtired or whatever and less likely to be able to control his choices, then I take more direction of playtime...the light sabers aren't so likely to come out as the art supplies might be. Or we'll cuddle and read, help him settle and rest a bit. He still naps...so I'm also likely to give them all lunch a little early and put them down for naps a little early (I don't force a by-the-clock schedule...I have a strict ROUTINE, but the time fluctuates depending on their needs) The light saber is a big thing with him right now. He is passionate about those light sabers! We have two systems this gets handled with. First is that if you hit somebody, you lose the item you hit them with. You earn it back with good behaviour/making good choices (as opposed to: you can have it tomorrow...we expect to see a real change in behaviour to get the toy back). If he is really angry/upset and that's why he hit her, I do the whole validating/optional choices thing. He may or may not get a time out...I don't like to use those as punishments per se because they don't work that way other than as a scare tactic or threat and I just can handle discipline that way. If he needs to calm down, or if I need to calm the situation by separating everyone, then I'll use time outs like that...for calming everyone (even me, if need be!). If he (or whichever child is in time out) is really upset, I'll comfort him if he needs it/wants it and leave him alone if he's really not up for that. I mean, we all have times where we want to be alone when we're angry and times where we need reassurance, right? So do little people! Once everything is calmed down, one of our basic rules is that if you wrong someone, you put it right. It works in lots of ways...but if you hurt someone, you have to find a way to make it up to them. Apologize, do something nice for the sibling you hurt. It's not about guilt...but about healing that which you've harmed. And hitting is harming. Another thing that often works for him (and many little ones) is a good strong hug. If he's tired, his proprioceptive sense can be off and so the physicality of his behaviour is often an attempt to bring that back online, so to speak. A good strong hug, or time on the kid trampoline helps (I highly highly recommend the JumpSmart Trampoline...pricey, but entirely worth it. Just be careful to assemble it in the room where you'll keep it...they didn't take doorways and hallways into consideration when engineering it...) The secondary system we have right now is to inspire good behaviour. I found a blank calendar page template online. They each have their own page for the month. At the end of my day with them, everyone who has a " good report " to give their mom gets to put a sticker on their calendar for that day. Anyone who has stickers for every day of that week gets to skip naptime on Friday. If EVERYONE gets to skip naptime, we go somewhere fun...this week's plan is to go apple picking at a local orchard and cider mill. IF someone has to take a nap, then we stay home, but the nap-skippers get to have a movie watching party. (This is a REALLY big deal to them because they almost never get to watch TV with me!) Thus far, it is working really well. Even if someone missed a sticker on one day, they all want the stickers SO much that they don't give up on their week. And, they are motivating each other...a lot of encouraging each other to good choices " so you get your sticker! " So if he hits with the light saber, he's also going to lose his sticker for that day. He's a trip, though, this boy...when he was 3 and his sisters were 1 1/2 it was clean up time. One of the twincesses started picking up his train tracks and he went ballistic (I had told him the tracks could stay out because he had worked so hard to build the track). She didn't know that...totally innocent baby thing to pick up the track piece and thus destroy the track layout. He grabbed the wooden track from her and whacked her across the back with it. I took the track, sat him on the stair, and attended to the crying baby...soothed her, gave her the boo boo bunny, etc. Then I went through the whole " Yes, you were very mad at your sister. " and " What are other ways you could have handled this? " (Used my words, asked grown up for help, etc). That child then spent...I kid you not...a HALF AN HOUR trying to come up with a scenario under which he COULD hit a sister. All I said the whole time was " Nobody in this house hits anybody else for any reason. " and he'd say " Hear me out! I got another one! IF it's raining, and [twincess A] touches my trains, I can hit [twincess E]. That's good idea, yeah! " No, nobody in this house hits anybody else for any reason... " I got one more! If Daddy is on a trip and Grandma is coming and I don't have a soccer game, I can only hit [twincess A] " and so on and so on. He can find and point out the loophole in anything... " Well, you said no jumping on the bed...you didn't say no DANCING on the bed... " My friends and I joke that if we ever get arrested, we're hiring him for a defense attorney! Ack. That was probably way more than you wanted. I love this stuff...it's my life! Ninera > > Subject: Re: Christmas Ideas!! > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Monday, September 20, 2010, 6:04 PM > I find the whole subject of child > developmental stages very interesting. If I may ask, > if the 5-year-old you nanny were to whack/hurt his sibling > with the light-sabre, how would you handle that? Would > he get a time-out? Would you take the toy away from > him for a while, and he has to earn it back? What is > an appropriate way to parent a 5 year old in that particular > situation: he's over-tired, on an adrenaline rush and > misbehaving/acting out toward a sibling. > > Like others here, I know all too well what the > inappropriate response would have been if I'd dared to do > anything like that around my nada. My little Sister > and I were mostly robot-zombie children, too terrorized by > fear of our nada to misbehave so blatantly. We would > have had our heads thumped and been knocked to the floor, or > our faces slapped. We would have gotten screamed at, > called horrible names, and (depending on how frustrated and > enraged nada felt at the moment) a hard spanking or even a > beating with the belt. > > Thanks, > > -Annie > > > > > > I dunno. > > > > I nanny for a 5yo boy, and while I love him > dearly...he's a typical 5yo boy. If he is overtired > (which we cannot always control) he gets on an adrenaline > surge that makes it very very difficult for him to control > his actions, even when he knows that whacking his little > sisters with his light saber is 1. wrong and 2. never ever > allowed. But while he may realize that the action is > wrong, he's 5 and lacks the brain development to be able to > understand why he behaves this way or that. And that > natural impulsivity really does mean that they act without > thinking...a totally age appropriate tendency. > > > > In other words, a 5 year old can understand that the > grown up said this or that is not allowed, but physically > can lack the self control to follow that. Much of that > is simply neurological development...our brains continue > developing well past childhood. The typical 5 year old lacks > the ability to think a situation through, consider all the > possible outcomes, and then make a choice. Going by > Piaget's stages of cognitive development, that's a skill > found in the formal operations stage...a stage that doesn't > begin until puberty. > > > > While some of us may have had to develop those skills > very young in order to survive, most children do *not*...and > SHOULD not...have to do that. > > > > Ninera > > > > ------------------------------------ > > **This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new > book The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality > Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells, > available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write @.... > DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST. > > To unsub from this list, send a blank email to WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe . > > > Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline > Parent, " and " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to > find) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 That is awesome. What a stark difference there is between mentally healthy, rational, compassionate, educated parenting and the sick, twisted, toxic excuse for parenting so many of us got instead. It seems to me that the underlying issue is that my Sister and I weren't related to as individual, living human beings with feelings, needs, opinions or even rights of our own. Instead, we were objects. Mere things, possessions, with no personal feelings to hurt, no desires, no opinions, no rights. Such an extreme difference, its amazing. It makes me wish mightily that there were mandatory parenting classes required to get a high school diploma or GED. I really do think that if a license to drive a car is mandatory, and a screening to be allowed to adopt a pet is mandatory, that a license to parent children ought to be mandatory too. -Annie > > > > > > I dunno. > > > > > > I nanny for a 5yo boy, and while I love him > > dearly...he's a typical 5yo boy. If he is overtired > > (which we cannot always control) he gets on an adrenaline > > surge that makes it very very difficult for him to control > > his actions, even when he knows that whacking his little > > sisters with his light saber is 1. wrong and 2. never ever > > allowed. But while he may realize that the action is > > wrong, he's 5 and lacks the brain development to be able to > > understand why he behaves this way or that. And that > > natural impulsivity really does mean that they act without > > thinking...a totally age appropriate tendency. > > > > > > In other words, a 5 year old can understand that the > > grown up said this or that is not allowed, but physically > > can lack the self control to follow that. Much of that > > is simply neurological development...our brains continue > > developing well past childhood. The typical 5 year old lacks > > the ability to think a situation through, consider all the > > possible outcomes, and then make a choice. Going by > > Piaget's stages of cognitive development, that's a skill > > found in the formal operations stage...a stage that doesn't > > begin until puberty. > > > > > > While some of us may have had to develop those skills > > very young in order to survive, most children do *not*...and > > SHOULD not...have to do that. > > > > > > Ninera > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > **This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new > > book The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality > > Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells, > > available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write @... > > DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST. > > > > To unsub from this list, send a blank email to WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe > > > > > > Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline > > Parent, " and " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to > > find) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 Ninera, I would like to ask you a question that doesn't really have anything to do with bpd. Well maybe it does - the deceased grandmom of the child was mentally Ill. The child I am asking about is a friend's two-year-old daughter. The child bites and hits and kicks violently. She draws blood on her parents. My own daughter says that when she is on the phone with the child's mother they can barely converse for the mom stopping to scream at the child for out of control behavior. I feel the child is completely overstimulated because they go out every day, to mommy and me groups, playtimes, the mall, etc. Several times she has started to pinch my daughter, and my daughter has said NO! and given her " the look " - that she learned from me, ha ha. The child stops. So how would you handle this? I would love to know. By the way, this will make you all chuckle - the father is a child psychologist. A completely useless one I might add. Em Sent from my blueberry. > > > > > > > I dunno. > > > > I nanny for a 5yo boy, and while I love him dearly...he's a > typical 5yo boy. If he is overtired (which we cannot always control) > he gets on an adrenaline surge that makes it very very difficult for > him to control his actions, even when he knows that whacking his > little sisters with his light saber is 1. wrong and 2. never ever > allowed. But while he may realize that the action is wrong, he's 5 > and lacks the brain development to be able to understand why he > behaves this way or that. And that natural impulsivity really does > mean that they act without thinking...a totally age appropriate > tendency. > > > > In other words, a 5 year old can understand that the grown up said > this or that is not allowed, but physically can lack the self > control to follow that. Much of that is simply neurological > development...our brains continue developing well past childhood. > The typical 5 year old lacks the ability to think a situation > through, consider all the possible outcomes, and then make a choice. > Going by Piaget's stages of cognitive development, that's a skill > found in the formal operations stage...a stage that doesn't begin > until puberty. > > > > While some of us may have had to develop those skills very young > in order to survive, most children do *not*...and SHOULD not...have > to do that. > > > > Ninera > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2010 Report Share Posted September 20, 2010 A toddler who expresses emotion and/or communicates with physical aggression is the same as an adult who screams when things aren't exactly their way. And, since her mother responds with screaming... It isn't uncommon for a toddler to express themselves physically. Toddlers have a far greater receptive language than they have expressive language. That is...they can understand far far more than they can express. It's really really frustrating. Trust me. About 9 years ago I moved to another country to do long term mission work. I had never studied the language...I spent two months in language school (in yet a third country!) to get a solid foundation linguistically. I remember a point at which I could understand much of what was being said to me, but being unable to express myself adequately...it took me time to formulate my responses and even then I knew I was not expressing exactly what I wanted to say. I frequently felt like screaming or crying and it hit me out of the blue one day " Holy crap...this is what a toddler feels like! No wonder they act the way they do! " I'm going to guess (assuming the child has no underlying attachment/sensory/developmental issues) that this child is 1. relying on physicality to express herself and 2. doing so because she knows that this will guarantee her a response (attention). She may also simply not know what else to do! It sounds simple...but we (the grown ups) SO OFTEN forget to tell them what they CAN do! We tell them " No hitting! " and " No biting! " and leave them to figure out what their other options are. " No hitting! Nice touches, like this... " Facial expression and tone are what I have found to be hugely helpful. A stern, low and serious tone with a very serious face " No hitting " and then a calmer, gentler, softer voice and a smile for " Niiiice touches, like this! " (or " Gentle touches " or whatever.) If it were a child in my care, I would first approach the attention need and shower the child with as much positive attention as possible...lots of playing together, singing, reading stories, being silly. If I had other things to do I would include her as much as possible even though it makes a task take longer...laundry? hand her wet things to put in the dryer, have her match socks when folding, or let her at least sit with me and talk to her while I'm folding (maybe have her fold her doll clothes at the same time). Paying bills? Give her some paper and crayons, talk to her while I'm doing it, etc. And, point out the positive behaviours...smile at her, light up when she gives kisses (not bites), hugs (not hitting), etc. Right now, her habit is to be violent...it takes time and encouragment to change a habit and create new behaviour patterns. (as time goes on and the good behaviour becomes habit they don't need the praise as much...after all, it's not like an 8 year old still needs M & M's to use the toilet!) Naughty behaviour means taking a break from being together. Not necessarily a timeout. But I'll go do my thing while you do yours because I don't like to be bitten/hit/kicked. Right now, she's getting rewarded with attention for naughtiness. Take that reward away and give it only when behaviour is nice and you'll get a child who behaves quite differently. A tantruming toddler (or child) doesn't get reasoned with or cajoled out of it. (and she's likely to tantrum when the grownups start responding differently) Calmly, quietly, the only words I give them NO MATTER WHAT are " When your voice sounds like mine, we can talk about it. " I may have to say it a dozen times...but there's no " STOP crying! " or " If you stop you'll get a cookie " or " Fine, have that toy! " just " When your voice sounds like mine, we can talk about it. " Biting is usually a sign of " I have something to say but don't have the words " . When I have biters (or hitters or kickers) I shadow them to not only observe what triggers them, but to catch them before they do it. When they start winding up to do it, I verbally stop them...or if I have to physically stop a small hand by grabbing the child in a bear hug, I will. It's also hard for them to bite you when you are hugging them like that from behind. Not a lot of words thrown at them...just very simple. " No biting! " that sort of thing. And help teach them the vocabulary. I had a little guy...yeaaaaarrssss ago...who by age two would just wail " MAD MAD MAD SO MAD! I SO MAD! " It was great...he knew how he felt and had the words...but that's because when he threw raging tantrums before that we had validated " SO MAD! You're SO MAD! " I figure...you know what, you have a right to be mad if things don't go your way...and you have a right to express that. You don't have a right to express it in ways that hurt other people. And honestly...I've had kids who needed the physicality so we've had it set up where there was a particular couch cushion they could pull off the couch and beat up on. " You cannot hit me, you can hit the pillow " " You cannot bite me, you can bite your teddy bear " ...as a starter step until the underlying issue has been addressed. Then as the child learns to verbalize things, those physical behaviours lessen. The child may or may not be overstimulated...but it sounds to me like mostly what she's after is straight up attention and she has been trained that being naughty guarantees her attention (and it may be that playing nicely and quietly by herself means not a lot of it...if I were two, I'd choose the biting too!) As for how to handle it with the mom...that's always tough. I'm " just the nanny " so a lot of times moms will ask my advice, I'll give them several ideas, and then they blow me off with " Well, you're not a mom, you don't really know. " Oh, okay. Only, this is your FIRST three year old and I've done day in/day out care for dozens of them over the past 20+ years so clearly, I have no ideas at all that could be valid and have picked up nothing from all the other moms and nannies I interact with. I often will refer a book, or a website, or whatever. Even for my close friends who are now moms...when they come to me I'll offer a few ideas in conversation and then later email them " Hey, I found this article/website/book/whatever about the same thing, thought I'd pass it along... " Sometimes that means I had to do a google search and sort through many pages to find something worth sending along, but it helps. If the parents aren't asking for help, then there isn't much to do. Maybe ask...are you trying to stop that behaviour or are you just hoping it will pass? and see what they say. If they say they are on it...imo, you kind of have to let it go. EXCEPT for when you are with the child...absolutely do the " STOP " and " NO " with the child if she's coming after you. Maybe even role model to her mom how to play with her (without being obvious that this is what you are doing). If mommy was raised by a crazy mother herself, she may simply not know how to enter her child's world or may be afraid to. And again, this all assumes that there is no nutritional deficiencies/food sensitivities causing the behaviour, no sensory issues, etc. For the most part, children and their behaviour are very very reactive and emulative...they react in fairly predictable ways to the way they are treated (and thus, trained to behave) and their environment...and they emulate what they see. Ninera > > Subject: Re: Re: Christmas Ideas!! > To: " WTOAdultChildren1 " <WTOAdultChildren1 > > Date: Monday, September 20, 2010, 11:37 PM > Ninera, > I would like to ask you a question that doesn't really have > anything > to do with bpd. Well maybe it does - the deceased grandmom > of the > child was mentally Ill. > The child I am asking about is a friend's two-year-old > daughter. The > child bites and hits and kicks violently. She draws blood > on her > parents. > My own daughter says that when she is on the phone with the > child's > mother they can barely converse for the mom stopping to > scream at the > child for out of control behavior. > I feel the child is completely overstimulated because they > go out > every day, to mommy and me groups, playtimes, the mall, > etc. > Several times she has started to pinch my daughter, and my > daughter > has said NO! and given her " the look " - that she learned > from me, ha ha. > The child stops. > So how would you handle this? I would love to know. > By the way, this will make you all chuckle - the father is > a child > psychologist. A completely useless one I might add. > > Em > > > > Sent from my blueberry. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2010 Report Share Posted September 21, 2010 Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply! I am giving it to my daughter to read, and perhaps she can impart some of this gently (she'll figure out how) and help out both mother and daughter. I'm a mother myself, and wouldn't ever say " just the nanny " because you don't have a child - this particular set of parents does this to my daughter all the time and it drives her crazy. They'll say " Oh, YOU won't understand until you have a baby. " Which is silly and untrue. I consider professional nannies just that - professionals. And reading your comments on the list, it's clear you have a lot of knowledge about and insight into children. I tend to agree that the child is not getting enough of the right kind of attention. The mother has actually said she doesn't know what to do with her, which I find hard to grasp. Mothering for me was so instinctive that I never faced these kind of problems - and my daughter was not easy! Never slept, very bright (she tests at genius level) and kept us on our toes. Your ideas are sound, and if we can get them across they could really help. Right now the mother is putting the child into a time-out, but when she does this she goes and sits by her so what the child is gaining is, just like you said, attention. I feel for the mother and the child. And the father. Sheesh. What a nut! Again, thank you for taking the time to reply and somehow we will manage to put your advice to good use! Em In a message dated 9/20/2010 9:22:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ninera73@... writes: A toddler who expresses emotion and/or communicates with physical aggression is the same as an adult who screams when things aren't exactly their way. And, since her mother responds with screaming... It isn't uncommon for a toddler to express themselves physically. Toddlers have a far greater receptive language than they have expressive language. That is...they can understand far far more than they can express. It's really really frustrating. Trust me. About 9 years ago I moved to another country to do long term mission work. I had never studied the language...I spent two months in language school (in yet a third country!) to get a solid foundation linguistically. I remember a point at which I could understand much of what was being said to me, but being unable to express myself adequately...it took me time to formulate my responses and even then I knew I was not expressing exactly what I wanted to say. I frequently felt like screaming or crying and it hit me out of the blue one day " Holy crap...this is what a toddler feels like! No wonder they act the way they do! " I'm going to guess (assuming the child has no underlying attachment/sensory/developmental issues) that this child is 1. relying on physicality to express herself and 2. doing so because she knows that this will guarantee her a response (attention). She may also simply not know what else to do! It sounds simple...but we (the grown ups) SO OFTEN forget to tell them what they CAN do! We tell them " No hitting! " and " No biting! " and leave them to figure out what their other options are. " No hitting! Nice touches, like this... " Facial expression and tone are what I have found to be hugely helpful. A stern, low and serious tone with a very serious face " No hitting " and then a calmer, gentler, softer voice and a smile for " Niiiice touches, like this! " (or " Gentle touches " or whatever.) If it were a child in my care, I would first approach the attention need and shower the child with as much positive attention as possible...lots of playing together, singing, reading stories, being silly. If I had other things to do I would include her as much as possible even though it makes a task take longer...laundry? hand her wet things to put in the dryer, have her match socks when folding, or let her at least sit with me and talk to her while I'm folding (maybe have her fold her doll clothes at the same time). Paying bills? Give her some paper and crayons, talk to her while I'm doing it, etc. And, point out the positive behaviours...smile at her, light up when she gives kisses (not bites), hugs (not hitting), etc. Right now, her habit is to be violent...it takes time and encouragment to change a habit and create new behaviour patterns. (as time goes on and the good behaviour becomes habit they don't need the praise as much...after all, it's not like an 8 year old still needs M & M's to use the toilet!) Naughty behaviour means taking a break from being together. Not necessarily a timeout. But I'll go do my thing while you do yours because I don't like to be bitten/hit/kicked. Right now, she's getting rewarded with attention for naughtiness. Take that reward away and give it only when behaviour is nice and you'll get a child who behaves quite differently. A tantruming toddler (or child) doesn't get reasoned with or cajoled out of it. (and she's likely to tantrum when the grownups start responding differently) Calmly, quietly, the only words I give them NO MATTER WHAT are " When your voice sounds like mine, we can talk about it. " I may have to say it a dozen times...but there's no " STOP crying! " or " If you stop you'll get a cookie " or " Fine, have that toy! " just " When your voice sounds like mine, we can talk about it. " Biting is usually a sign of " I have something to say but don't have the words " . When I have biters (or hitters or kickers) I shadow them to not only observe what triggers them, but to catch them before they do it. When they start winding up to do it, I verbally stop them...or if I have to physically stop a small hand by grabbing the child in a bear hug, I will. It's also hard for them to bite you when you are hugging them like that from behind. Not a lot of words thrown at them...just very simple. " No biting! " that sort of thing. And help teach them the vocabulary. I had a little guy...yeaaaaarrssss ago...who by age two would just wail " MAD MAD MAD SO MAD! I SO MAD! " It was great...he knew how he felt and had the words...but that's because when he threw raging tantrums before that we had validated " SO MAD! You're SO MAD! " I figure...you know what, you have a right to be mad if things don't go your way...and you have a right to express that. You don't have a right to express it in ways that hurt other people. And honestly...I've had kids who needed the physicality so we've had it set up where there was a particular couch cushion they could pull off the couch and beat up on. " You cannot hit me, you can hit the pillow " " You cannot bite me, you can bite your teddy bear " ...as a starter step until the underlying issue has been addressed. Then as the child learns to verbalize things, those physical behaviours lessen. The child may or may not be overstimulated...but it sounds to me like mostly what she's after is straight up attention and she has been trained that being naughty guarantees her attention (and it may be that playing nicely and quietly by herself means not a lot of it...if I were two, I'd choose the biting too!) As for how to handle it with the mom...that's always tough. I'm " just the nanny " so a lot of times moms will ask my advice, I'll give them several ideas, and then they blow me off with " Well, you're not a mom, you don't really know. " Oh, okay. Only, this is your FIRST three year old and I've done day in/day out care for dozens of them over the past 20+ years so clearly, I have no ideas at all that could be valid and have picked up nothing from all the other moms and nannies I interact with. I often will refer a book, or a website, or whatever. Even for my close friends who are now moms...when they come to me I'll offer a few ideas in conversation and then later email them " Hey, I found this article/website/book/whatever about the same thing, thought I'd pass it along... " Sometimes that means I had to do a google search and sort through many pages to find something worth sending along, but it helps. If the parents aren't asking for help, then there isn't much to do. Maybe ask...are you trying to stop that behaviour or are you just hoping it will pass? and see what they say. If they say they are on it...imo, you kind of have to let it go. EXCEPT for when you are with the child...absolutely do the " STOP " and " NO " with the child if she's coming after you. Maybe even role model to her mom how to play with her (without being obvious that this is what you are doing). If mommy was raised by a crazy mother herself, she may simply not know how to enter her child's world or may be afraid to. And again, this all assumes that there is no nutritional deficiencies/food sensitivities causing the behaviour, no sensory issues, etc. For the most part, children and their behaviour are very very reactive and emulative...they react in fairly predictable ways to the way they are treated (and thus, trained to behave) and their environment...and they emulate what they see. Ninera --- On Mon, 9/20/10, <_darkalleye@..._ (mailto:darkalleye@...) > wrote: > From: <_darkalleye@..._ (mailto:darkalleye@...) > > Subject: Re: Re: Christmas Ideas!! > To: " _WTOAdultChildren1 _ (mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) " <_WTOAdultChildren1 _ (mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) > > Date: Monday, September 20, 2010, 11:37 PM > Ninera, > I would like to ask you a question that doesn't really have > anything > to do with bpd. Well maybe it does - the deceased grandmom > of the > child was mentally Ill. > The child I am asking about is a friend's two-year-old > daughter. The > child bites and hits and kicks violently. She draws blood > on her > parents. > My own daughter says that when she is on the phone with the > child's > mother they can barely converse for the mom stopping to > scream at the > child for out of control behavior. > I feel the child is completely overstimulated because they > go out > every day, to mommy and me groups, playtimes, the mall, > etc. > Several times she has started to pinch my daughter, and my > daughter > has said NO! and given her " the look " - that she learned > from me, ha ha. > The child stops. > So how would you handle this? I would love to know. > By the way, this will make you all chuckle - the father is > a child > psychologist. A completely useless one I might add. > > Em > > > > Sent from my blueberry. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 I just wanted to say thank you! These Christmas ideas are the most helpful, practical ideas for dealing with a large family gathering with BPD family members that I have yet come across. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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