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Re: does anyone think bpd is a fancy scientific term for evil?

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BP s , like anyone else, are capable of good and evil. IMHO, there are

BP s who are good to the extent they are able, and wish to be good, but

are prohibited by their illness. There are also those who are mean,

evil, people, and regardless of their condition would be evil.

I m not the one to judge which is which. But the things you describe

were horrific.

KO s, BPs, and normal people are all capable of good and evil. We need

to choose wisely our course of action.

Blessings

Doug

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I don't think BPD is itself evil. I do think what your nada did was evil. But I

can't really think of my nada as evil, even if she did some evil things too. I

really think in many ways she did the best she could. She wasn't given a proper

childhood herself - her parents were worse to her than she was to me. And my

nada DID try to change, for many years she was on medication and in therapy.

There really is no medication especially for BPD, though. The anti-depressants

helped her depression, the tranquilizers helped calm her down when she was

raging, and eventually she was on so much shit she basically slept for 3 years,

but she was still ILL. She gave up trying to get help, and I DO fault her for

that - I think even just therapy was better than nothing. I just can't think of

her as evil...

However, those things your nada did were certainly evil, and it may be she is

evil herself. I congratulate you on not passing that onto the next generation

and of taking care of your own sanity.

Casey

> > >

> > > my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this

> > day. I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more

> > than $75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i

> > am missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry

> > for myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not

> > continue at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging

> > things>>>slut, whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14.

> > man..14 is young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so

> > maybe that is why she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she

> > told them i was a family wrecker...she went into my school and told my

> > teachers what a slut i was>>>she hired an adult man to be my babysitter

> > which molested my brother and i> she gave me a std because i always had to

> > wear her clothes because she did not want to buy any for me> something i

> > could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any remorse...if i did the

> > stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to sleep at night! she

> > is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my golden

> > brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had any

> > valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

> > all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

> > sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

> > actions>>> are EVIL!

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

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Amieb,

Human beings have the potential to commit great evil (think Hitler) and great

good (think Mother ). BPDs are perhaps more likely than the general

population to incline toward evil deeds because of their COLOSSAL degree of

self-absorption.

Another question is, why is anyone reluctant to call a deed evil? People seem to

be reluctant to do so. There are associations with sin that they do not want to

make, and the emotional connotation of the word is frankly scary.

So let us consider an objective source to remove the element of emotion from the

idea - Dictionary.com, for instance. Here's its definition of evil, the

adjective:

1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.

2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.

3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate;

disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.

4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.

5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: " He is known for his evil

disposition. "

If you would like to check the definition for yourself, it's here:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evil

To relate it to what you were asking:

- I'd say that catching an STD from her clothes fits definition #1.

- Calling you such horrid names definitely fits #2.

- Getting molested by a male (!!) sitter totally fits #3.

- Denying reality fits #4...

- I'm not sure what would fit #5 as you do not specifically mention temper, but

it's extremely likely it was there.

One could probably argue that this or that fits the other definition better, but

that's not the point. One could argue that this bpd was not evil, but that does

not apply universally. The point is yes, your mom has all the bases of Evil

covered.

I'm very sorry you ever had your innocence robbed of you, much less by your own

mother and her actions. Yes, our situation sucks. Yes, their evil harms us.

Their choices are made, but it sounds like you see the evil and refuse to

perpetuate it in your family. I'd say you incline the other way.

May we all heal,

Tina.

>

> my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this day.

I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more than

$75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i am

missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry for

myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not continue

at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging things>>>slut,

whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14. man..14 is

young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so maybe that is why

she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she told them i was a family

wrecker...she went into my school and told my teachers what a slut i was>>>she

hired an adult man to be my babysitter which molested my brother and i> she gave

me a std because i always had to wear her clothes because she did not want to

buy any for me> something i could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any

remorse...if i did the stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to

sleep at night! she is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my

golden brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had

any valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

actions>>> are EVIL!

>

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--- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " kyjohnson40days "

> The question I struggle with is this: How much are they the victims of evil

and how much are they the willing participants?

Karla, you know what that makes me think of is in the show Supernatural. The

character Dean goes to hell where he is tortured every day and told each day

that if he is willing to take on the role of torturer for the new souls coming

in that he won't have any more pain. In the story it took him forty years

before he became broken down enough to switch sides and the story explores his

deep shame about that.

I suspect though that people with PD's who choose to pass the pain along rather

than deal with what was done to them don't feel much shame about it. They have

no awareness really.

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It is a complicated issue to ponder, for me anyway. On the one hand I am pretty

sure that the latest scientific research is showing that the brains of those

with Cluster B personality disorders are observably, measurably different in the

way they process emotions and perceptions, and observably, measurably different

in the way they regulate (or fail to regulate) their emotions. (Its the tests

that use live, 3-D computer assisted MRI brain scanning to show which parts of

the brain are " firing " that indicate this.) So, there is some physical brain

dysfunction, some abnormality going on in there.

On the other hand, my mother was/is quite capable of putting on a good face, her

mask of perfection, when she's in public. She has the ability to rein in her

wildly disregulated negative perceptions and reactions when it suits her, and

she has the ability to wait and unleash her fury and frustration when and where

its safe for her to do so: at home, alone with her kids and/or her husband (when

he was still with us.) Or, against her own much-despised older sister. My nada

is " high-functioning " , able to hold down a job, able to get along with friends,

neighbors, co-workers, relatives.

So its very clear to me that my nada does experience the world through a

" negativity filter " , or " crap-colored glasses " and has no emotional rheostat.

Its also very clear to me that she could at (pretty much) any point in her adult

life have chosen to go and get psychiatric help for herself, or she could have

chosen to simply walk out of the house and cool off when she found herself

triggered into rage at her very small children over some ordinary, everyday

stress that raising children or running a home entails, because triggering into

blind rage was such a repeat pattern with her. Over, and over, and over again.

But she never did choose to take any personal responsibility for any of her

negative feelings or reactions. Over my entire lifespan, my mother has instead

chosen to project and dump her negativity onto Sister and me, and dad. And

other people. Nada was/is the perfect one, the perpetual victim of other

people's stupidity or malice. And this perpetual victimhood apparently, in her

mind, gave/gives her the right to seek to get back at those who have hurt or

disappointed her.

She has always felt it was her right to lash out and make us, her family, hurt

just as bad as she was hurting.

And that, I think, is the core issue.

If I accidentally smash my finger with a hammer it hurts like hell, but just

because I'm in pain I don't feel a desire to walk over to you and hit your

finger with the hammer too just because you happen to be in the room with me

when I did it. (Well, maybe I feel that urge a little if you are laughing

hysterically at me when I'm in real pain.) But if you're being sympathetic (or

at least neutral) I don't feel an urge to slap you or scream at you that its

your fault and call you ugly, hateful names. I don't feel the need to make you

hurt the way I'm hurting, or blame you because I hit my own damned finger

accidentally.

But my nada does react with rage and a need to hurt and blame someone else when

she is emotionally hurt or physically hurt. And she is so very, very easily

upset and hurt, and so easily triggered into rage (hence the " walking on

eggshells " concept.)

That's the insanity; that's the evil: this bizarre hatefulness and need to

inflict pain on others because you, yourself are hurting.

If there is evil, then I think that's the core of it: " I'm hurting, and somehow

its your fault so I'm going to make you hurt too and I have the right to do

this. "

Plus, its both evil and insane to repeatedly react this way toward a terrified

little child who is half or less than half your size and abjectly begging you to

please mommy or please daddy don't hurt me, and not comprehend or choose to

ignore that something is very, very wrong with yourself.

-Annie

>

> I agree>>> yet don't buy it! I cannot (buy it)or i will be like them! everyone

has a choice. but i am not bpd>>>so i guess i do not know firsthand.

>

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your posting sounds somewhat familiar... (been in counseling for years... always

being called things...)... It hurts when our nadas are so mean... To this day I

still hear it all the time... (my face is getting wrinkled and I need botox, I

am overweight, my complexion is bad... ) I get so tired of it!! I just cant ever

be what she wants!! I do have to tell you though that your title " does anyone

think bpd is a fancy scientific term for evil " was hilarious... I shared that

with my husband and we both got a good laugh followed by a good discussion of

how we felt you were right on with your title... Just wanted you to know that

you gave me a smile for the day!! Thanks!

Jen

>

> my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this day.

I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more than

$75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i am

missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry for

myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not continue

at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging things>>>slut,

whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14. man..14 is

young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so maybe that is why

she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she told them i was a family

wrecker...she went into my school and told my teachers what a slut i was>>>she

hired an adult man to be my babysitter which molested my brother and i> she gave

me a std because i always had to wear her clothes because she did not want to

buy any for me> something i could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any

remorse...if i did the stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to

sleep at night! she is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my

golden brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had

any valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

actions>>> are EVIL!

>

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Yes its their choice. We all have hard choices every day. My mother could

have chosen not to blacken me and golden my dead brother instead and then

wave it in my face. She could have commited herself to therapy. Looked for

real medical treatment. It would have been hard, but I don't think it would

be any harder than what I am doing. And she had the choice - to try to

destroy the soul of a child - or not to do that. She chose destroy. She is

evil. yeah, i went through questioning this too, and the firmer my

boundaries get the easier it is for me to accept.

Seriously, read People of the Lie. It is so fantastic!

>

>

>

> your posting sounds somewhat familiar... (been in counseling for years...

> always being called things...)... It hurts when our nadas are so mean... To

> this day I still hear it all the time... (my face is getting wrinkled and I

> need botox, I am overweight, my complexion is bad... ) I get so tired of

> it!! I just cant ever be what she wants!! I do have to tell you though that

> your title " does anyone think bpd is a fancy scientific term for evil " was

> hilarious... I shared that with my husband and we both got a good laugh

> followed by a good discussion of how we felt you were right on with your

> title... Just wanted you to know that you gave me a smile for the day!!

> Thanks!

> Jen

>

>

> >

> > my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this

> day. I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more

> than $75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i

> am missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry

> for myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not

> continue at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging

> things>>>slut, whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14.

> man..14 is young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so

> maybe that is why she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she

> told them i was a family wrecker...she went into my school and told my

> teachers what a slut i was>>>she hired an adult man to be my babysitter

> which molested my brother and i> she gave me a std because i always had to

> wear her clothes because she did not want to buy any for me> something i

> could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any remorse...if i did the

> stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to sleep at night! she

> is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my golden

> brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had any

> valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

> all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

> sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

> actions>>> are EVIL!

> >

>

>

>

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and Karla,I hope you don't mind if I jump in here with some thoughts :)

,I've never seen the show Supernatural since I no longer watch tv at

all,but what struck me about the example you provided about this Dean character

is his shameful awareness that taking on the role of torturer of " new souls "

amounts to *using* them to spare himself pain--and that it took forty years for

him to be broken down enough to be desperate enough to do so.

I agree with you that our BPD nadas/fadas feel no shame about what they

do because they have no real awareness of what they're doing.I know that it's

not possible to totally narrow down what motivates a BPD's behavior to one core

thing but to my mind it's their reflexive and unconscious *using* of others to

serve their needs that leads to the evil behaviors.I think that this using

capacity is so systemic to the illness that it begins to issue as if naturally

from their very characters--unless of course it is examined and a course of

taking responsibility for meetng their own needs themselves is

undertaken...which as we all know is highly unlikely: it's so much more

expediant for a BPD to appropriate a " self " from someone else and to use that

self for their own ends...

Going back to Karla's question: How much are they the victims of evil

and how much are they the willing participants?

I've asked myself that question so many times...A few years ago when I

was still in regular contact with nada I took her clothes shopping one day--she

had by then gotten to the point of being rather low functioning and was no

longer taking care of her appearance--and we had this bizarre " conversation " in

the car driving to the mall.

I was patient and non chalant at the time about her increasingly

shocking personal hygiene,unlike my NPD fada who was beginning to rage at her

more and more about it trying to bully her into taking better care of herself.My

attitude was: Let's go to the mall and find you something pretty to wear and if

you pitch a fit about what I pick out,you can just keep right on wearing those

falling apart sweats you've got on,whatever,it doesn't matter to me.After a

couple of futile shopping excursions with me not particularly caring if she got

anything or not,she relaxed and let me " find " stuff for her.

So anyway that day in the car she told me, " I'm ashamed to admit I

never knew what a kind,compassionate person you are. "

Sounds good,doesn't it? She even said, " I'm ashamed " !

But not in an apologetic voice and not with any remorse,more like a

bland statement...I was on this automatic pilot at the time of not letting her

get under my skin,so I replied back blandly, " It's alright... "

She insisted, " No,you really are.I never knew.When you were a little

girl I purposefully tore you down to feel better about me.You always possessed

all these qualities Dad and I never had and I was jealous of you.I knew I was

doing it but I couldn't stop it. "

Again,she wasn't saying any of this with genuine feeling--her tone

of voice was closer to pointing out that it happened to be a sunny day and the

sky was blue.

I was trying very hard at the time to keep myself on a groove of

non-reactiveness to her so I totally didn't want to go there about being

purposefully torn down as a kid.Also not trusting any seeming insight or

awareness from her because in the past that had always been followed by her

going right back to being a nada shortly afterward.

So I just said, " Hhhmmmm " in a neutral voice.Although admittedly a

part of me wanted badly to believe that she was about to really tell me

something at last; to show me that she had finally gotten it and that she really

did care that she had done wrong.

She added in this conspiratorial murmur she had sometimes when

mentioning anything that might be construed as " bad behavior " from her, " You're

the only one who really knows me.Nobody else does.Everybody else only knows me

through my act,even Dad,but you're the only one who knows the real me. "

I knew the " real her " alright: the vicious,vindictive hate filled

" mother " who encouraged me to commit suicide at twelve,among so much other nasty

and negative treatment of me from birth.While I was thinking of the terrible

emotional consequences I had borne from these actions of hers,she said:

" Everyone else thinks I'm just this nice smiling person but you know

the truth.You know the me behind the act.And here you are being so compassionate

to me.I should have seen it before but I didn't.But now I do. "

I lost my temper slightly and pointed out to her, " I've always been

compassionate to you. "

She smiled happily (my " mother " who had just told me that she'd

purposefully torn me down as a little girl) and said cheerfully, " Yes,you

probably were.I didn't see it then but now I do. "

The point of this is that the extent of her " awareness " of my

compassion was along the lines of the old tv commercial,like she was slapping

her forehead and going, " Oh,I could've had a V8! "

Like:I could have had you (used you) as an ally years and years ago

and I erred in making you an enemy instead when having you as an ally would have

served ME much better.That was how deep her " oops " went.

No remorse over what she might have done to me as a little girl.No

real apology.A sense of self satisfaction at " seeing it now " .But zero awareness.

Because all she had " seen " was how she could have used me

better, " the only one who really knows me " .And how she might use me in future in

this capacity.

To me that's the evil and tragedy of this illness: they only know

how to use people.Whether they are taking hold of you to tear you apart or

latching on to you to keep themselves afloat,they are vampirizing you.Or all

they know how to do is cannabalize whatever qualities you have for the

sustenance of their sickness in the sense of that making it (or them) be " ok " .

Even when it's a " mother " telling her daughter how kind and

compassionate she is that is still *using* her.That kindness and compassion

doens't exist in and of itself or is simply something wonderful about the

daughter--it is there for nada's use.To me,going through life constantly using

others--esp. your own children--is as sad as it is evil.

>

> --- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " kyjohnson40days "

> > The question I struggle with is this: How much are they the victims of evil

and how much are they the willing participants?

>

> Karla, you know what that makes me think of is in the show Supernatural. The

character Dean goes to hell where he is tortured every day and told each day

that if he is willing to take on the role of torturer for the new souls coming

in that he won't have any more pain. In the story it took him forty years

before he became broken down enough to switch sides and the story explores his

deep shame about that.

>

> I suspect though that people with PD's who choose to pass the pain along

rather than deal with what was done to them don't feel much shame about it.

They have no awareness really.

>

>

>

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" Oh, I could have had a V8 "

Great story, great lesson. What the hell? We deserved so much better.

I'm sorry for your loss of your mother and childhood, , but I

really admire your instrospectivness, your insight, your humor. You are

amazing.

Girlscout

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 5:07 AM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

>

> and Karla,I hope you don't mind if I jump in here with some thoughts

> :)

>

> ,I've never seen the show Supernatural since I no longer watch tv at

> all,but what struck me about the example you provided about this Dean

> character is his shameful awareness that taking on the role of torturer of

> " new souls " amounts to *using* them to spare himself pain--and that it took

> forty years for him to be broken down enough to be desperate enough to do

> so.

>

> I agree with you that our BPD nadas/fadas feel no shame about what they do

> because they have no real awareness of what they're doing.I know that it's

> not possible to totally narrow down what motivates a BPD's behavior to one

> core thing but to my mind it's their reflexive and unconscious *using* of

> others to serve their needs that leads to the evil behaviors.I think that

> this using capacity is so systemic to the illness that it begins to issue as

> if naturally from their very characters--unless of course it is examined and

> a course of taking responsibility for meetng their own needs themselves is

> undertaken...which as we all know is highly unlikely: it's so much more

> expediant for a BPD to appropriate a " self " from someone else and to use

> that self for their own ends...

>

> Going back to Karla's question: How much are they the victims of evil and

> how much are they the willing participants?

>

> I've asked myself that question so many times...A few years ago when I was

> still in regular contact with nada I took her clothes shopping one day--she

> had by then gotten to the point of being rather low functioning and was no

> longer taking care of her appearance--and we had this bizarre " conversation "

> in the car driving to the mall.

>

> I was patient and non chalant at the time about her increasingly shocking

> personal hygiene,unlike my NPD fada who was beginning to rage at her more

> and more about it trying to bully her into taking better care of herself.My

> attitude was: Let's go to the mall and find you something pretty to wear and

> if you pitch a fit about what I pick out,you can just keep right on wearing

> those falling apart sweats you've got on,whatever,it doesn't matter to

> me.After a couple of futile shopping excursions with me not particularly

> caring if she got anything or not,she relaxed and let me " find " stuff for

> her.

>

> So anyway that day in the car she told me, " I'm ashamed to admit I never

> knew what a kind,compassionate person you are. "

>

> Sounds good,doesn't it? She even said, " I'm ashamed " !

>

> But not in an apologetic voice and not with any remorse,more like a bland

> statement...I was on this automatic pilot at the time of not letting her get

> under my skin,so I replied back blandly, " It's alright... "

>

> She insisted, " No,you really are.I never knew.When you were a little girl I

> purposefully tore you down to feel better about me.You always possessed all

> these qualities Dad and I never had and I was jealous of you.I knew I was

> doing it but I couldn't stop it. "

>

> Again,she wasn't saying any of this with genuine feeling--her tone of voice

> was closer to pointing out that it happened to be a sunny day and the sky

> was blue.

>

> I was trying very hard at the time to keep myself on a groove of

> non-reactiveness to her so I totally didn't want to go there about being

> purposefully torn down as a kid.Also not trusting any seeming insight or

> awareness from her because in the past that had always been followed by her

> going right back to being a nada shortly afterward.

>

> So I just said, " Hhhmmmm " in a neutral voice.Although admittedly a part of

> me wanted badly to believe that she was about to really tell me something at

> last; to show me that she had finally gotten it and that she really did care

> that she had done wrong.

>

> She added in this conspiratorial murmur she had sometimes when mentioning

> anything that might be construed as " bad behavior " from her, " You're the only

> one who really knows me.Nobody else does.Everybody else only knows me

> through my act,even Dad,but you're the only one who knows the real me. "

>

> I knew the " real her " alright: the vicious,vindictive hate filled " mother "

> who encouraged me to commit suicide at twelve,among so much other nasty and

> negative treatment of me from birth.While I was thinking of the terrible

> emotional consequences I had borne from these actions of hers,she said:

>

> " Everyone else thinks I'm just this nice smiling person but you know the

> truth.You know the me behind the act.And here you are being so compassionate

> to me.I should have seen it before but I didn't.But now I do. "

>

> I lost my temper slightly and pointed out to her, " I've always been

> compassionate to you. "

>

> She smiled happily (my " mother " who had just told me that she'd

> purposefully torn me down as a little girl) and said cheerfully, " Yes,you

> probably were.I didn't see it then but now I do. "

>

> The point of this is that the extent of her " awareness " of my compassion

> was along the lines of the old tv commercial,like she was slapping her

> forehead and going, " Oh,I could've had a V8! "

>

> Like:I could have had you (used you) as an ally years and years ago and I

> erred in making you an enemy instead when having you as an ally would have

> served ME much better.That was how deep her " oops " went.

>

> No remorse over what she might have done to me as a little girl.No real

> apology.A sense of self satisfaction at " seeing it now " .But zero awareness.

>

> Because all she had " seen " was how she could have used me better, " the only

> one who really knows me " .And how she might use me in future in this

> capacity.

>

> To me that's the evil and tragedy of this illness: they only know how to

> use people.Whether they are taking hold of you to tear you apart or latching

> on to you to keep themselves afloat,they are vampirizing you.Or all they

> know how to do is cannabalize whatever qualities you have for the sustenance

> of their sickness in the sense of that making it (or them) be " ok " .

>

> Even when it's a " mother " telling her daughter how kind and compassionate

> she is that is still *using* her.That kindness and compassion doens't exist

> in and of itself or is simply something wonderful about the daughter--it is

> there for nada's use.To me,going through life constantly using others--esp.

> your own children--is as sad as it is evil.

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > --- In

WTOAdultChildren1 <WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com>,

> " kyjohnson40days "

> > > The question I struggle with is this: How much are they the victims of

> evil and how much are they the willing participants?

> >

> > Karla, you know what that makes me think of is in the show Supernatural.

> The character Dean goes to hell where he is tortured every day and told each

> day that if he is willing to take on the role of torturer for the new souls

> coming in that he won't have any more pain. In the story it took him forty

> years before he became broken down enough to switch sides and the story

> explores his deep shame about that.

> >

> > I suspect though that people with PD's who choose to pass the pain along

> rather than deal with what was done to them don't feel much shame about it.

> They have no awareness really.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Oh my hell - 3 years old! That really makes me mad, Annie. I can't imagine

how you feel. In my case, i was " given to my father at birth because my

brother needed her more. "

WTH?

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 10:36 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> ,

>

> I am always just so struck by your insights regarding the memories that you

> share here. I am continually amazed at the core of resilience and strength

> in you in spite of what your nada and your enabling fada did to you.

>

> In this case, its the complete lack of remorse and empathy that your nada

> exhibited even though she was admitting to you *that she was aware of

> mistreating you deliberately and repeatedly* that struck me. Your nada said

> she " couldn't help it " which is another way of saying (seems to me) that she

> felt *entitled* to go ahead and do it.

>

> That just screams narcissistic pd and antisocial pd to me. My own personal

> opinion is that people with Cluster B disorders in that degree of severity

> are way too mentally ill to be raising children. You're lucky to even be

> alive.

>

> I experienced a very (eerily) similar conversation with my own nada a few

> years back.

>

> She admitted very casually and with virtually no emotion, and with

> absolutely no remorse or empathy for my experience, that she " gave up on

> having a normal mother-daughter relationship " with me " by the time you were

> three years old. " Her point of view was that I (the baby) hated her and

> rejected her. There was absolutely NO awareness or insight at all on nada's

> part that screaming at/terrorizing a baby, slapping her in the face and

> hitting her had made her tiny child afraid of her. Nada was always the

> perfect mother. " So, I was so happy to find that I was pregnant again,

> because I'd have another chance to be loved, " said nada, rather wistfully.

>

> I think she was actually expecting me to apologize to her for making her

> feel rejected.

>

> The bizarre *casualness* of this admission (so similar to your own nada's)

> delivered without any particle of remorse or empathy or acceptance of any

> personal responsibility... totally poleaxed me. I was struck dumb, unable to

> even respond in the moment, since it suddenly made so many puzzle pieces

> fall into place.

>

> I'm willing to bet that my mother has a good dose of antisocial pd (aka

> sociopathy or psychopathy) mixed in there with her bpd and narcissism.

>

> Its just a shame there is no evaluation or test that new parents need to

> undergo before being allowed to raise children, is all I can say.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > and Karla,I hope you don't mind if I jump in here with some

> thoughts :)

> >

> > ,I've never seen the show Supernatural since I no longer watch tv at

> all,but what struck me about the example you provided about this Dean

> character is his shameful awareness that taking on the role of torturer of

> " new souls " amounts to *using* them to spare himself pain--and that it took

> forty years for him to be broken down enough to be desperate enough to do

> so.

> >

> > I agree with you that our BPD nadas/fadas feel no shame about what they

> do because they have no real awareness of what they're doing.I know that

> it's not possible to totally narrow down what motivates a BPD's behavior to

> one core thing but to my mind it's their reflexive and unconscious *using*

> of others to serve their needs that leads to the evil behaviors.I think that

> this using capacity is so systemic to the illness that it begins to issue as

> if naturally from their very characters--unless of course it is examined and

> a course of taking responsibility for meetng their own needs themselves is

> undertaken...which as we all know is highly unlikely: it's so much more

> expediant for a BPD to appropriate a " self " from someone else and to use

> that self for their own ends...

> >

> > Going back to Karla's question: How much are they the victims of evil and

> how much are they the willing participants?

> >

> > I've asked myself that question so many times...A few years ago when I

> was still in regular contact with nada I took her clothes shopping one

> day--she had by then gotten to the point of being rather low functioning and

> was no longer taking care of her appearance--and we had this bizarre

> " conversation " in the car driving to the mall.

> >

> > I was patient and non chalant at the time about her increasingly shocking

> personal hygiene,unlike my NPD fada who was beginning to rage at her more

> and more about it trying to bully her into taking better care of herself.My

> attitude was: Let's go to the mall and find you something pretty to wear and

> if you pitch a fit about what I pick out,you can just keep right on wearing

> those falling apart sweats you've got on,whatever,it doesn't matter to

> me.After a couple of futile shopping excursions with me not particularly

> caring if she got anything or not,she relaxed and let me " find " stuff for

> her.

> >

> > So anyway that day in the car she told me, " I'm ashamed to admit I never

> knew what a kind,compassionate person you are. "

> >

> > Sounds good,doesn't it? She even said, " I'm ashamed " !

> >

> > But not in an apologetic voice and not with any remorse,more like a bland

> statement...I was on this automatic pilot at the time of not letting her get

> under my skin,so I replied back blandly, " It's alright... "

> >

> > She insisted, " No,you really are.I never knew.When you were a little girl

> I purposefully tore you down to feel better about me.You always possessed

> all these qualities Dad and I never had and I was jealous of you.I knew I

> was doing it but I couldn't stop it. "

> >

> > Again,she wasn't saying any of this with genuine feeling--her tone of

> voice was closer to pointing out that it happened to be a sunny day and the

> sky was blue.

> >

> > I was trying very hard at the time to keep myself on a groove of

> non-reactiveness to her so I totally didn't want to go there about being

> purposefully torn down as a kid.Also not trusting any seeming insight or

> awareness from her because in the past that had always been followed by her

> going right back to being a nada shortly afterward.

> >

> > So I just said, " Hhhmmmm " in a neutral voice.Although admittedly a part of

> me wanted badly to believe that she was about to really tell me something at

> last; to show me that she had finally gotten it and that she really did care

> that she had done wrong.

> >

> > She added in this conspiratorial murmur she had sometimes when mentioning

> anything that might be construed as " bad behavior " from her, " You're the only

> one who really knows me.Nobody else does.Everybody else only knows me

> through my act,even Dad,but you're the only one who knows the real me. "

> >

> > I knew the " real her " alright: the vicious,vindictive hate filled

> " mother " who encouraged me to commit suicide at twelve,among so much other

> nasty and negative treatment of me from birth.While I was thinking of the

> terrible emotional consequences I had borne from these actions of hers,she

> said:

> >

> > " Everyone else thinks I'm just this nice smiling person but you know the

> truth.You know the me behind the act.And here you are being so compassionate

> to me.I should have seen it before but I didn't.But now I do. "

> >

> > I lost my temper slightly and pointed out to her, " I've always been

> compassionate to you. "

> >

> > She smiled happily (my " mother " who had just told me that she'd

> purposefully torn me down as a little girl) and said cheerfully, " Yes,you

> probably were.I didn't see it then but now I do. "

> >

> > The point of this is that the extent of her " awareness " of my compassion

> was along the lines of the old tv commercial,like she was slapping her

> forehead and going, " Oh,I could've had a V8! "

> >

> > Like:I could have had you (used you) as an ally years and years ago and I

> erred in making you an enemy instead when having you as an ally would have

> served ME much better.That was how deep her " oops " went.

> >

> > No remorse over what she might have done to me as a little girl.No real

> apology.A sense of self satisfaction at " seeing it now " .But zero awareness.

> >

> > Because all she had " seen " was how she could have used me better, " the

> only one who really knows me " .And how she might use me in future in this

> capacity.

> >

> > To me that's the evil and tragedy of this illness: they only know how to

> use people.Whether they are taking hold of you to tear you apart or latching

> on to you to keep themselves afloat,they are vampirizing you.Or all they

> know how to do is cannabalize whatever qualities you have for the sustenance

> of their sickness in the sense of that making it (or them) be " ok " .

> >

> > Even when it's a " mother " telling her daughter how kind and compassionate

> she is that is still *using* her.That kindness and compassion doens't exist

> in and of itself or is simply something wonderful about the daughter--it is

> there for nada's use.To me,going through life constantly using others--esp.

> your own children--is as sad as it is evil.

> >

> >

> >

> > --- In

WTOAdultChildren1 <WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com>,

> " climberkayak "

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

,

I related to what you just wrote below, well said. I at times have referred to

BPD as SPD (Shitty Personality Disorder)...I think that more clearly sums it

up...BPD is so generous.

Becky

> >

> > --- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " kyjohnson40days "

> > > The question I struggle with is this: How much are they the victims of

evil and how much are they the willing participants?

> >

> > Karla, you know what that makes me think of is in the show Supernatural.

The character Dean goes to hell where he is tortured every day and told each day

that if he is willing to take on the role of torturer for the new souls coming

in that he won't have any more pain. In the story it took him forty years

before he became broken down enough to switch sides and the story explores his

deep shame about that.

> >

> > I suspect though that people with PD's who choose to pass the pain along

rather than deal with what was done to them don't feel much shame about it.

They have no awareness really.

> >

> >

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

You've just described the way a sociopath thinks. Other people are merely

objects, things to be used, and it doesn't matter if that hurts the other person

as long as the sociopath's needs are being gratified.

I imagine that's very much how pedophiles, other sexual predators, stalkers, and

other kinds of criminals think: they feel entitled to help themselves to someone

else's property or someone else's body whether that someone else likes it or

not. The sociopath/psychopath/antisocial pd person has no conscience, no

empathy, and no remorse.

" Sociopathic pd " and " psychopathic pd " are earlier terms used for " antisocial

pd " ; aspd is one of the " Cluster B " personality disorders, along with borderline

pd, narcissistic pd, and histrionic pd, and these disorders share some traits in

common.

In fact, if I understand correctly, the next edition ( " V " ) of the American

Psychiatric Association's publication the " Diagnostic and Statistical Manual "

may reorganize the 4 separate Cluster B disorders into one entity instead of

being separate. The combined traits would then be rated on one scale for

" frequency " and another scale for " severity " to make a diagnosis more specific

to each individual.

If that's what they're planning, it makes sense to me. I've thought of my nada

as a " walking Cluster B " for a long time now, and wondered if possibly

borderline pd is really just sociopathic pd " lite " .

Here's the link to an interesting short documentary on a self-proclaimed

narcissist and sociopath, with some fascinating comments by Dr. Hare, who

developed the " gold standard " diagnostic tool for psychopathy. It also has some

fascinating glimpses of a new neurological technology: 3-D, real-time,

computer-assisted brain scanning, that shows exactly where and how differently

the brains of those with personality disorder work (compared to control subjects

without pds) in the areas of processing and regulating emotions.

http://www.blip.tv/file/2268740

If the link doesn't work, look up the documentary titled " I, Psychopath " that

was made by " Wild Docs! " The narcissist/psychopath being studied is a guy named

Sam Vaknin. He is fascinatingly blunt about his own condition, yet, he is still

quite manipulative and is caught out in an important lie during the course of

the documentary.

I find the way he treats his wife and the way she accepts his abuse and sticks

with him very disturbing, also.

-Annie

>

> Its a hard thing to try to make sense of... mum is aware of what she does and

is using it to get whatever result she wants (sane, aware), but at the same time

there is no remorse whatsoever (insane).

> Perhaps its the mix of the two that makes it seem so evil?

> Someone with striaght paranoia is not doing their behaviours like a 3yr old

tryng to get their own way - they cant help it and have no control.

> Like a lot of other people haven mentioned, my mother will only bring out the

true crazy when she feels safe to do so- around those she feels ok to abuse. She

is able to control it to a large degree - but has no intention of ever getting

help - she likes to behave this way, it works.

>

> Its eerily similar to how I imagine paedophiles think - they know its wrong,

they know it is damaging, but they are only concerned with what they want, and

to hell with the repercussions on the small child in front of them. The other

person is not important at all, other than as something they own, therefore

there is no need to " fix " their behaviour. The only error in their eyes would be

getting caught.

>

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Annie,thank you so much for your kind words :)

Yes,it's the *casual* way they both brought up and spoke of what is

basically soul murder of their own children that is so chilling and creepy.And

their complete self absorption is mind boggling.

I mean,how dare your nada sit there and blithely tell you that she " gave

up " on you when you were only three years old?! I'd say to her: You know

what,lady,your small dependant child NEVER had the luxury of giving up on

YOU.She was stuck with you because she needed you to survive; giving up on YOU

was not an option for her.

Because my nada did the same thing to me--even after my younger brother

was born (and eaten alive by her as her golden one),she continued to express a

wish to have a " third " .This third child HAD to be another girl so that she

could--her own words-- " have the daughter I always dreamed of " ... " so I can have

the daughter I always deserved " ....she had even picked out a name for this

daughter of her dreams that was a variation of her maiden name,an extension of

herself before the poor thing was even conceived...

She never did have this much hoped for third child/daughter but through

out my childhood she would occasionally regale the people we knew with her

imaginings of what this magical daughter would be like--she had " always " wanted

a red headed child so she was sure that if she did have this third child,she

would magically be a red head.Even had the hair color picked out,like ordering a

doll.The narcissism is very obvious.

My nada also had absolutely no awareness of the fact that how she had

abused me from infancy onwards had so much to do with how our relationship fell

disappointingly short of her ideal.But that was of course my own fault for not

being what she had wanted or giving her what she wanted---and I think that all

of the martyrdom she subjected me to growing up was meant to be an extended

apology from me for having failed to be the incarnation of her " dream

daughter " .I could NEVER be sorry enough for that crime!!!

I tried and tried as a child to placate her and to be what she wanted

simply to *have* a mother since that is a biological survival imperative and all

the while she was feeling incredibly sorry for herself at having been cheated

out of her entitlement to having " the daughter I deserved " ...Oh yes,I agree with

you: These Cluster Bs are WAY too mentally ill to be allowed to raise

children.Because they don't raise them.They consume them,deplete them and

destroy them---all of this over a DELUSION they have.Or multiple delusions.

When my nada was pregnant with my brother,she was " happy " for the same

reasons you mentioned with yours: a second chance to be " loved " ,cancel out the

first one and start again from scratch.

The personality disordered were defined in the past as " primitive

personalities " and I think that is actually very apt.

I had had " conversations " in the past with my nada before that moment in

the car about " why " she had treated me as she did that left me dumb struck but

also helped me to put the puzzle pieces together.Through out my childhood she

had treated me like I was too evil to be " loved " and what I had always wanted

was for her to KNOW that I really was a good person.So when she sat there and

blandly acknowledged that I really was compassionate after all instead of truly

understanding how much I had bent over backwards for her and twisted myself into

pretzel shapes to win her " love " and " approval " ,I was sickened to see that all

of my effort unto denial of myself had been in vain.Her " awareness " of my

compassion only meant that she was entitled to it for her own use--it still had

nothing to do with me or who I was.

I mean,it seems to me,that even if they " realize " that you don't

actually hate them,they will want to cannibalize your " love " and *you* in the

process.There is simply nothing healthy going on there.Even if what you're

offering them is healthy it's going to get warped and defiled by their illness.

It galls me deeply that anyone would say that we as KOs didn't

properly love our mothers/our parents.We did.We tried against impossible odds.It

is *their* illness that trumped all of our efforts.

No child anywhere should be expected to achieve results that even

professionals in the field find so extremely challenging that many of them are

loathe to treat Cluster Bs.I also wish there was a screening tool to disqualify

these types from parenthood instead of having society pick up the pieces after

the fact but calling a spade a spade for the sake of the greater good is still

framed as a civil liberties issue.There was a huge brouhaha over the " Mother's

Act " under the recent national health care bill that required madatory screening

for post partum depression for new mothers in hospitals with some people

vociferously arguing that such screening trespasses on a mother's right to

privacy and organizing against that legislation to get it over turned.

But willful ignorance never goes out of style,unfortunately,and isn't

just the province of nadas/fadas.Although they probably invented it :)

>

> ,

>

> I am always just so struck by your insights regarding the memories that you

share here. I am continually amazed at the core of resilience and strength in

you in spite of what your nada and your enabling fada did to you.

>

> In this case, its the complete lack of remorse and empathy that your nada

exhibited even though she was admitting to you *that she was aware of

mistreating you deliberately and repeatedly* that struck me. Your nada said she

" couldn't help it " which is another way of saying (seems to me) that she felt

*entitled* to go ahead and do it.

>

> That just screams narcissistic pd and antisocial pd to me. My own personal

opinion is that people with Cluster B disorders in that degree of severity are

way too mentally ill to be raising children. You're lucky to even be alive.

>

> I experienced a very (eerily) similar conversation with my own nada a few

years back.

>

> She admitted very casually and with virtually no emotion, and with absolutely

no remorse or empathy for my experience, that she " gave up on having a normal

mother-daughter relationship " with me " by the time you were three years old. "

Her point of view was that I (the baby) hated her and rejected her. There was

absolutely NO awareness or insight at all on nada's part that screaming

at/terrorizing a baby, slapping her in the face and hitting her had made her

tiny child afraid of her. Nada was always the perfect mother. " So, I was so

happy to find that I was pregnant again, because I'd have another chance to be

loved, " said nada, rather wistfully.

>

> I think she was actually expecting me to apologize to her for making her feel

rejected.

>

> The bizarre *casualness* of this admission (so similar to your own nada's)

delivered without any particle of remorse or empathy or acceptance of any

personal responsibility... totally poleaxed me. I was struck dumb, unable to

even respond in the moment, since it suddenly made so many puzzle pieces fall

into place.

>

> I'm willing to bet that my mother has a good dose of antisocial pd (aka

sociopathy or psychopathy) mixed in there with her bpd and narcissism.

>

> Its just a shame there is no evaluation or test that new parents need to

undergo before being allowed to raise children, is all I can say.

>

> -Annie

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Yeah,,that being so appreciative of stuff given from the non-owned is

really infuriating...well,to me it is,infuriating...My fada was more inclined to

do that than nada but weirdly he had alot of Waif in him.Like one time before I

went NC he had a medical crisis while I was working full time--I spent every

single evening and weekend tending to him while my own life (and housework) got

put on hold then one day he said all aglow to me, " So and so (this person who

only visited him once in the hospital) sent me a balloon bouquet and a get well

card! " like it was manna from heaven while never *once* thanking me but making

sure to dump on me liberally about how miserable he was--and then asked me to

look up So and So's phone number so he could call them and thank them for being

so wonderful...Argghhh....You're right: Why would he value an extension of

himself running herself into the ground for him.I guess extensions of yourself

can always be re-extended according to them?

I wouldn't have put my nada out on the side of the road that day because

I was in a very different spiritual place at the time and believed that I could

somehow " balance the cosmic books " by taking the high road with her; that this

would " fix " whatever karma had thrown us together in the first place.That was

about two years before I learned about BPD and personality disorders.I had

attempted conversations about the things she had done to me as a child before

that day and got either crocodile tears from her trying to induce guilt in me or

she reacted like I was challenging her to a duel and quickly shot me right

through the heart.Although each time she revealed some things I needed to

know--then got wise to me and completely clammed up for years until that day in

the car.

Yes,they do particularly take advantage of our compassion and so easily

or readily manipulate our willingness to give--while complaining that it's not

enough or accusing us of not caring.For me,anyway,that was the hook for a long

time: getting suckered into " proving " my compassion to them.Basically *using* my

decency.I think they do that alot: use other peoples' decency as an in to then

feed on their host.That's a classic con artist's ploy but I think BPDs mostly do

that unconsciously out of a *need* to have a host rather than a conscious desire

to exploit one,which in a way is scarier because they aren't really aware of

what they're doing.

>

> , you are so right as usual - " using " people, attempting to own them

utterly is to me the most evil part of BPD. And oh your poor nada, realizing

she hadn't understood how to get full use of you. Ugh. It's a wonder you

didn't put her out on the side of the road and keep driving. They particularly

take advantage of our compassion and that of others - it's probably one of the

easiest ways to manipulate people who are naturally giving. I wonder what your

nada would have said if you'd asked her, neutrally of course, if she had any

remorse about tearing you down? Another thing that stands out about my nada is

whatever I do give her she feels entitled to, but if someone she doesn't " own "

gives to her she makes a big deal out of it and is so appreciative. I mean why

should she value what she gets from someone she sees as an extension of herself.

>

>

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Wow your description of the perfect red-headed daughter - yeah, that hits

home.

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 2:07 AM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

>

> Yeah,,that being so appreciative of stuff given from the non-owned is

> really infuriating...well,to me it is,infuriating...My fada was more

> inclined to do that than nada but weirdly he had alot of Waif in him.Like

> one time before I went NC he had a medical crisis while I was working full

> time--I spent every single evening and weekend tending to him while my own

> life (and housework) got put on hold then one day he said all aglow to

> me, " So and so (this person who only visited him once in the hospital) sent

> me a balloon bouquet and a get well card! " like it was manna from heaven

> while never *once* thanking me but making sure to dump on me liberally about

> how miserable he was--and then asked me to look up So and So's phone number

> so he could call them and thank them for being so

> wonderful...Argghhh....You're right: Why would he value an extension of

> himself running herself into the ground for him.I guess extensions of

> yourself can always be re-extended according to them?

>

> I wouldn't have put my nada out on the side of the road that day because I

> was in a very different spiritual place at the time and believed that I

> could somehow " balance the cosmic books " by taking the high road with her;

> that this would " fix " whatever karma had thrown us together in the first

> place.That was about two years before I learned about BPD and personality

> disorders.I had attempted conversations about the things she had done to me

> as a child before that day and got either crocodile tears from her trying to

> induce guilt in me or she reacted like I was challenging her to a duel and

> quickly shot me right through the heart.Although each time she revealed some

> things I needed to know--then got wise to me and completely clammed up for

> years until that day in the car.

>

> Yes,they do particularly take advantage of our compassion and so easily or

> readily manipulate our willingness to give--while complaining that it's not

> enough or accusing us of not caring.For me,anyway,that was the hook for a

> long time: getting suckered into " proving " my compassion to them.Basically

> *using* my decency.I think they do that alot: use other peoples' decency as

> an in to then feed on their host.That's a classic con artist's ploy but I

> think BPDs mostly do that unconsciously out of a *need* to have a host

> rather than a conscious desire to exploit one,which in a way is scarier

> because they aren't really aware of what they're doing.

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > , you are so right as usual - " using " people, attempting to own

> them utterly is to me the most evil part of BPD. And oh your poor nada,

> realizing she hadn't understood how to get full use of you. Ugh. It's a

> wonder you didn't put her out on the side of the road and keep driving. They

> particularly take advantage of our compassion and that of others - it's

> probably one of the easiest ways to manipulate people who are naturally

> giving. I wonder what your nada would have said if you'd asked her,

> neutrally of course, if she had any remorse about tearing you down? Another

> thing that stands out about my nada is whatever I do give her she feels

> entitled to, but if someone she doesn't " own " gives to her she makes a big

> deal out of it and is so appreciative. I mean why should she value what she

> gets from someone she sees as an extension of herself.

> >

> >

>

>

>

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Author Skerrit agrees with you RE your explanation for this behavior in

our bpd parents: being excessively grateful for small attentions/gifts from

friends or acquaintances while ignoring the regular, generous attentions and

care-giving of a loved one:

Excerpt from'Meaning from Madness':

Basically, borderlines and narcissists live in great fear of being

negatively judged by others so they project an image they feel will be

acceptable (i.e. mirroring). But they will only do this so long as you

fall outside their definition of 'self'. Once you fall within their

definition of 'self' (i.e. through marriage or the like) they are no

longer motivated to impress you, but to control you so that you ALSO

project that image to those outside. All perceived flaws must be

eradicated. "

So, we, their children, fall within their definition of " self " . As mere

extensions of their own selves, we are *expected* to show them great deference,

obedience and care. We owe it to them. And we have to do it perfectly.

As you pointed out, we don't generally thank our arm for bringing a cup to our

lips.

-Annie

> >

> > , you are so right as usual - " using " people, attempting to own

them utterly is to me the most evil part of BPD. And oh your poor nada,

realizing she hadn't understood how to get full use of you. Ugh. It's a wonder

you didn't put her out on the side of the road and keep driving. They

particularly take advantage of our compassion and that of others - it's probably

one of the easiest ways to manipulate people who are naturally giving. I wonder

what your nada would have said if you'd asked her, neutrally of course, if she

had any remorse about tearing you down? Another thing that stands out about my

nada is whatever I do give her she feels entitled to, but if someone she doesn't

" own " gives to her she makes a big deal out of it and is so appreciative. I

mean why should she value what she gets from someone she sees as an extension of

herself.

> >

> >

>

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I feel your pain and share your feelings. I also find antidepressants are

ineffective to replace the love and nurturing one should receive as a child. I

stumbled upon a book title recently called Chronic Sorrow. That is exactly how

I've felt most of my life, with the exception of my child-raising years. I

created a nice little family for myself....which is now all but destroyed. My

older son married a BP who's had it in for me since they got engaged. I don't

get to see my only grandchild because she won't allow it - all because I didn't

attend Grandparent Class at the hospital which she insists was a sign of my

disrespect to her as a parent.

My mother has reached 79 years old and realizes there's no relationship with me,

her only child, so she's working overtime scrambling to badmouth me to both of

my sons. She's only reinforced to my older son what his wife says about me and

he has nothing to do with me at all. My younger son is now spending all his

days off at my parent's house, so I'm sure she's hoovering him in also.

Evil personified, that's my mother. She'll probably outlive me because the

devil finds she's more useful to him on this planet than she will be in hell.

>

> my nada ruined my childhood. I suffer from ptsd and panic attacks to this day.

I have been in therapy for over 20 years i figure it has cost me more than

$75,000. Medications, hard work do not seem to cover up the fact that i am

missing developmental stages and love... i am sitting here feeling sorry for

myself but have healed to a point that the generational abuse will not continue

at least in my household. my nada had called me the most damaging things>>>slut,

whore, fat (at 97 lbs) bitch, cunt>> all before i turned 14. man..14 is

young...at 14 i was not an adult yet i was as big as her> (so maybe that is why

she felt threatened)she hit on my boyfriends...then she told them i was a family

wrecker...she went into my school and told my teachers what a slut i was>>>she

hired an adult man to be my babysitter which molested my brother and i> she gave

me a std because i always had to wear her clothes because she did not want to

buy any for me> something i could get rid of yet sick! she has never had any

remorse...if i did the stuff she did to me >>>really>>> i would not be able to

sleep at night! she is not a socipath because she has empathy for people like my

golden brother!and her brother as well! the all " good " folks!I have never had

any valadation nor closure on certain topics because she flat out denies them

all! sometimes i wish i could be like her(not really)>>> no guilt, sound

sleeper, no panic attacks, no ptsd! calm and calculated >>>then denied

actions>>> are EVIL!

>

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Wow,Annie,this brilliantly nails it: " We don't generally thank our arm for

bringing a cup to our lips " .

Sobering and oh so true in the context of being a mere extension of

nada/fada's body or being.

I've never heard of the book " Meaning from Madness " or else that one

just passed me by if you've mentioned it before on here.I'll have to check it

out.

>

> Author Skerrit agrees with you RE your explanation for this behavior

in our bpd parents: being excessively grateful for small attentions/gifts from

friends or acquaintances while ignoring the regular, generous attentions and

care-giving of a loved one:

>

> Excerpt from'Meaning from Madness':

>

> Basically, borderlines and narcissists live in great fear of being

> negatively judged by others so they project an image they feel will be

> acceptable (i.e. mirroring). But they will only do this so long as you

> fall outside their definition of 'self'. Once you fall within their

> definition of 'self' (i.e. through marriage or the like) they are no

> longer motivated to impress you, but to control you so that you ALSO

> project that image to those outside. All perceived flaws must be

> eradicated. "

>

> So, we, their children, fall within their definition of " self " . As mere

extensions of their own selves, we are *expected* to show them great deference,

obedience and care. We owe it to them. And we have to do it perfectly.

>

> As you pointed out, we don't generally thank our arm for bringing a cup to our

lips.

>

> -Annie

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Hi ,

My fada had a couple of different medical crises that landed him in the

hospital before he did die,ironically,of something he hadn't yet been diagnosed

with.With every crisis there was some kind of " balloon giver " to whom he

was,like you said,*genuinely* grateful.The excerpt from " Meaning From Madness "

that Annie posted gave me another ah ha about fada's gratitude in terms of him

living in dread of being judged (and I think that with the Cluster B crowd that

fear takes on truly delusional proportions way beyond a normal dread of being

viewed in a negative light by others--it's like they feel fundamentally that

they don't have a leg to stand on so they will appropriate any leg they can find

to prop themselves up with).If we are only an extension of that fundamentally

flawed " leg " then our propping doesn't count--but the people who aren't tainted

by association with that fundamentally flawed self/extension are perceived by

the BPD/Cluster B as " pure " and their offerings,however objectively

superficial,are therefore " above rubies " .Like when that person sent my fada the

balloon bouquet (a fellow soccer coach) what that meant to him was: I am a

soccer coach/ I am such a good soccer coach that this colleague has thought of

me.I mean,that is what he inferred from that token gesture and why it was so

" wonderful " to him: his association with that balloon giver was " purely "

untainted by his fundamental flaw because that guy only knew him as a soccer

coach,as something " good " that he wasn't judged for.And perhaps when that person

in the hospital asked your nada if they could " get her anything else " what she

inferred from that was: This person sees me as the kind of person you should ask

to get " anything else " for,that therefore means that I am worthy good and

unflawed.

I think these " outside of the self " people function to them like the

talking mirror did for the wicked queen in Snow White with nada/fada

saying, " Mirror,mirror on the wall...who is OK after all? " And these people with

their small gestures are the talking mirror that replies, " Why YOU are,you are

the most ok of all " ...(well,at this exact moment you are and since you live in

the moment hey presto! you have transcended all flaw)

Which serves them by reassuring them and although to an objective

observer the gesture is very superficial I think that for them it serves as the

resuscitation of their ego that they constantly believe they need,since the

alternative would be facing their flaws head on and that would completely

*annihilate* them.I think that's why these gestures become so overblown in their

minds,because they believe that they *need* the ego bolstering to ward off the

annihilating potential of their fundamental flawedness.Again,I don't think this

is entirely conscious on their part since in order to be conscious of feeling

fundamentally flawed you'd have to admit that into your awareness and much of

what they do is a fleeing from the possibility of awareness annihilating

them.*We* get to bear the feelings of being fundamentally flawed on their behalf

and/or the terribly heavy burden of rescuing them from ever having to face

awareness.Neither of which they can face within themselves so of course we'd

never get a thank you for doing something they are not prepared to acknowledge.

Yes,the hospital thing is deadly trapwise and it's hard--often there

simply isn't an easy answer or solution.Like when my fada died,nada my brother

and my aunt all effing absconded from the hospice.Fada was on pain meds *as

requested* and was in denial of the true nature of how serious his condition was

so he was refusing morphine.The nurses at the hospice were all lovely people and

dedicated professionals but they did have an entire floor of patients to tend to

after all and couldn't possibly give my fada constant one on one care.All of the

" golden " ones who had kept fada's fragile ego from

shattering--nada,brother,aunt--decided that they didn't want him dying to be

their last memory of him.I mean,these were the people he had idealized,and

basically they abandoned him to the kindness of strangers to spare

*themselves*.I've mentioned on here before that my aunt left him a *teddy bear*

to watch over him when she left.So what do you do when the golden ones of the

FOO are all dysfunctional people with shockingly weak characters and you're the

only family left who can see reality,that your dying family member needs someone

to advocate for him because the nurses on the floor cannot reasonably be

expected to give him intensive constant one on one care?

I had been NC with them until fada became mortally ill.My boundaries

and balance got overshadowed by the more pressing contingency of my father dying

in a hospice with nobody to request meds for him or to monitor his condition

hour by hour.I had to approach a nurse myself to get her to help me convince

fada to take morphine because he wasn't going to--within hours of that first

dose his pain got very bad and I had to work with the next nurse on duty to get

the doctor to authorize an increase in the dosage.She was great because the

doctor never got back to us and at my insistence she upped the dosage herself

with me signing off on it.On her own steam she wouldn't have done that which I

understand--but if I hadn't been there at all (since no other family was),fada

wouldn't have had his pain managed from the outset.I suppose the nurses would

have given him something but only once his suffering was very obvious.I say

suppose because his meds were strictly *as requested* and that was per doctor's

orders.

Do you think anyone in the FOO had the foggiest notion of the hours I

spent over three days with practically no sleep having fada's meds adjusted as

his condition worsened so he could rest comfortably? Of course not!

I discovered after fada died that he had completely disinherited me.He

had lied to me about this right to my face,long story.My brother was the hero at

his memorial service because of a computer retrospective of fada's life he had

created that totally wowed the FOO.Oooh...technical wizardry and cheap

sentimentality...

I had offered myself up to be used at fada's hour of most dire need

and got zero credit for doing the sh*t work.For me,that was a moral decision and

although I regretted it for a long time after that slap in the face

disinheritance (which was a gesture of pure spite from fada and his parting shot

to me),I believe now that I did the right thing being there for him when no one

else in the FOO would or could.For me.I'd never,ever judge someone else in a

similar situation if they elected to stay well out of it.Nor would I judge

someone who elected to make that kind of sacrifice.We all have to decide what is

best for us,for ourselves,for our own spirits.There is just so much *wrong* in

this hideous PD dysfunction that there are simply NO cut and dried answers,no

clean solutions.It's going to hurt somehow whichever way we go or are forced to

go.We are all of us only human.

About the karma thing...I've been horrified and angry this past year

especially.I've imagined myself tossing nada's sorry soul into a blackhole to be

obliterated FOREVER.I've had discussions in my head with fada about what an

a-hole he was and how much I RESENT him for all the issues he left me to deal

with.Yes,when someone has caused you that much pain it is impossible not to hate

them for it.

But as I've burned through all that rage I've also realized that I

just don't have it in me to sustain hatefulness and ire.I think of some things

in particular that both of them did to me and I just want to throw up all over

them.They were *sick*--only a sick person could treat a child like that.Their

sickness has mutilated my life in many ways.But I can't just hate them ad

infinitum.

I think that out of a desire to transcend *my own* pain that in the

past I put myself through a head trip of wanting to achieve an understanding

that is probably always going to elude me.I can't know for sure if karma is even

real-- and it doesn't matter if millions of people believe in it;indeed that

might recommend it even less.I think now that believing I could somehow be the

arbiter of whatever " karma " saddled me with nada and fada or them with me by

taking the high road (or the low road or any possible stance imaginable) was

trauma induced narcissistic desperation on my part.I understand the need to

right a wrong that was driving me to want to frame the whole tragedy as a bad

karma issue--but--*anything* that has been suggested through the ages to rectify

" bad karma " isn't going to work with a personality disorder situation.Performing

good deeds to balance out the negativity? As we know--ha!!! Sit back and wait an

eternity for THAT to work...Developing patience for your lot and accepting it?

Yeah,right,while you get used and abused; chewed up and spit out...

I am just personally finished with all consideration of " karma " as a

reference point for how I ended up with my parents because as far as I can see

any solutions to dealing with it don't apply to the personality disordered.And

again,I think now that believing I could arbitrate a " karmic " solution to having

been born to PD parents was me wanting to indulge a narcissistic desire to be

omnipotent,even on the " high road " .I've regretted trying that tack too and

lately that seems to me not so surprising because you get altitude sickness

trying to keep yourself on such an impossibly higher plane.

I find it much more liberating to say: This surpasses my understanding

on a spiritual level; I cannot apprehend why it happened and I do not hold the

answer to resolving it.

" Copy souls " ,well...For most of my life I've been asking myself Why.Why

am I here,why am I going through this,what is the meaning and the purpose if any

of my existence? I've read philosophy and religion to see if anyone seems to

know the answers or an answer.In my meanderings in this vein I happened across

the thoughts of Rose,a mystic from West Virginia who based his entire

spiritual ethos on a vision/dream he had in his early 20s about the " universe's "

inherent indifference to us.I had had a similar dream experience around the same

age and a similar resultant existential questioning so I read more about him

because I was struck by the similarity of what we both experienced.Unlike

myself, Rose placed himself entirely on the seeker's path and set out on

foot to find and apprentice with spiritual practicioners only to discover that

his sought after guru did not exist--he encountered ego trip after ego trip.So

he returned to his hometown in West Virginia and settled into the quiet life of

the contemplative,never fashioning himself as a guru or forming a cult but

attracting a very small following and giving lectures at colleges.Like other

philosopher contemplatives before him--such as Spinoza--he wondered if there was

a method whereby one could consciously endeavour to perpetuate the soul's

existence after death.He wasn't satisfied with the promises of spiritual

salvation that the various organized religions offer because to his view these

rang false.He considered most people to be laboring under what he called " a

vector of ignorance " : believing that the abject condition of desiring to live on

just as they were with all of their flaws and blindspots unexamined yet

expecting ultimate absolution for them is a folly of narcissistic self regard.He

believed that one must undertake a conscious shedding of attachment to the ego

in order to merge in spirit after death with the eternal.Sort of like the

Buddhists but his view of it sought to burn out *all* sentimentality,even

compassion for human foibles and weaknesses.To his view,giving the willfully

self indulgent a pass because they can't do better is akin to enabling the

eventual obliteration of their souls: his message was,You CAN do better and you

MUST try to...in Rose's spiritual world there would be no Boddhisatvas

hanging around to carry the weight of the lost souls and hanging back from

Nirvana until all could achieve it; to him,*you* are your own Boddhisatva NOW or

you can be and it is up to you and nobody else can save you from yourself...

" Copy souls " would be the ones choosing to swill in a " vector of

ignorance " unto their own eventual obliteration--as in with the death of the ego

there would be no further existence because the ego is of the mind and not of

the soul.Those who choose their egos over their souls will perish with them.They

were,in effect,only " copies " of their own self regard and one's self regard is

limited only unto oneself and it dies along with the body.In his vision,

Rose saw a multitude of people beating one another down and crawling over one

another and killing one another with their own self regard and the only ones who

survived were the ones who consciously removed themselves from the battle of

whose self regard would reign supreme: a futile battle because self regard will

not and cannot ever reign supreme in the greater spiritual scheme of things; it

will inevitably perish as will the self that invested itself in battling for its

own sake.It's a dead end.

You could extrapolate a VERY bleak view of our ultimate spiritual fate

from that,I suppose,or it could act as a spur.According to that view,all of our

nadas and fadas would be mere " copy souls " doomed to obliteration by their own

egotistical self regard.

Just in the past couple of months,over the summer,I've dropped these

ideas because I think they amount to spiritual vindictiveness.Who am I--or

anyone else--to claim to know what is or should be the fate of our souls? It is

no more my place to toss nada into a blackhole than it is for me to believe that

the forgiveness I felt for my fada at the moment when he died would have

absolved his sins.

Having an illness like BPD is biological,whether genetically innate or

caused by damage after birth,it is a physical fact.BPD's don't give it to

themselves;they don't cause their own illness.The more I read and the more I

think it over,the more having BPD (and the whole Cluster B spectrum) seems to be

as profoundly involuntary as being born with Down Syndrome.It's a tragedy--and

it's a tragedy for us KO's who must bear the brunt of what is an illness that

afflicts its sufferers to a degree where they cannot properly function as

parents.It is a tragic genetic defect--and in the same way that an individual

with an IQ of 60 wouldn't be left to raise a child without intervention,neither

should anyone diagnosed with BPD be left to raise a child.They can't.And it

seems to me that in a similar way to how some higher functioning individuals

with Down Syndrome are able to keep a job and even an independant living

situation while most can't,the BPD/Cluster B who gets into therapy and improves

is a rarity.

Would anyone say that someone with Down Syndrome has no hope of

spiritual salvation because they don't care about anyone but themselves? I don't

think so.Clearly,their condition isn't their fault.

I am at the point myself of believing that BPDs/Cluster Bs are

genetically and developmentally--not spiritually--flawed.I don't think they'll

be going to hell for their crimes against us.Both of my parents abused me in

ways that could have landed them in jail--because they were mentally ill.I don't

believe that either of them was " born demonic " although they did evil things to

me.I think they were too sick to truly apprehend what they were doing--the rabid

dog analogy comes to mind.

I enjoy pondering life's inexplicables--and of course continue to feel

compelled to want to " figure out " various aspects of nada/fada's PD-ness--but

right now I'm not into entertaining spiritual tyrannies of any stripe.I see more

and more that I actually don't even know what I don't know.And what I think I do

know is continuously up for revision ;)

>

> , I just posted some stuff that might also go in this response about

my experience with my nada in the hospital. Much like yours with your fada. It

seems like there's just something deadly about the hospital scenario. Even if

we (KO's) have managed to keep decent boundaries and balance beforehand, once

there is a serious illness it tests everything. Your fada being so grateful to

the balloon giver - yep. So familiar. What killed me was that my nada showed

*genuine* gratitude to these outsiders, a level of which I never saw. One

person asked if they " could get her anything else " when visiting her and my nada

told me that that just meant so much to her that it was " above rubies " . What

she ultimately wanted was someone to serve her.

>

> I have to smile about the part where you were in the spiritual place trying to

straighten out the karma. There are times I've tried that. Often it ends up

with me regretting it. I don't know if it is possible to come from an open and

loving place to relate to someone who has caused so much pain. It's a sad

thing.

>

> One time long ago you mentioned something about " copy souls " - I'd be curious

to know more and how you think it related to personality disorders.

>

>

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Hi ,

My fada had a couple of different medical crises that landed him in the

hospital before he did die,ironically,of something he hadn't yet been diagnosed

with.With every crisis there was some kind of " balloon giver " to whom he

was,like you said,*genuinely* grateful.The excerpt from " Meaning From Madness "

that Annie posted gave me another ah ha about fada's gratitude in terms of him

living in dread of being judged (and I think that with the Cluster B crowd that

fear takes on truly delusional proportions way beyond a normal dread of being

viewed in a negative light by others--it's like they feel fundamentally that

they don't have a leg to stand on so they will appropriate any leg they can find

to prop themselves up with).If we are only an extension of that fundamentally

flawed " leg " then our propping doesn't count--but the people who aren't tainted

by association with that fundamentally flawed self/extension are perceived by

the BPD/Cluster B as " pure " and their offerings,however objectively

superficial,are therefore " above rubies " .Like when that person sent my fada the

balloon bouquet (a fellow soccer coach) what that meant to him was: I am a

soccer coach/ I am such a good soccer coach that this colleague has thought of

me.I mean,that is what he inferred from that token gesture and why it was so

" wonderful " to him: his association with that balloon giver was " purely "

untainted by his fundamental flaw because that guy only knew him as a soccer

coach,as something " good " that he wasn't judged for.And perhaps when that person

in the hospital asked your nada if they could " get her anything else " what she

inferred from that was: This person sees me as the kind of person you should ask

to get " anything else " for,that therefore means that I am worthy good and

unflawed.

I think these " outside of the self " people function to them like the

talking mirror did for the wicked queen in Snow White with nada/fada

saying, " Mirror,mirror on the wall...who is OK after all? " And these people with

their small gestures are the talking mirror that replies, " Why YOU are,you are

the most ok of all " ...(well,at this exact moment you are and since you live in

the moment hey presto! you have transcended all flaw)

Which serves them by reassuring them and although to an objective

observer the gesture is very superficial I think that for them it serves as the

resuscitation of their ego that they constantly believe they need,since the

alternative would be facing their flaws head on and that would completely

*annihilate* them.I think that's why these gestures become so overblown in their

minds,because they believe that they *need* the ego bolstering to ward off the

annihilating potential of their fundamental flawedness.Again,I don't think this

is entirely conscious on their part since in order to be conscious of feeling

fundamentally flawed you'd have to admit that into your awareness and much of

what they do is a fleeing from the possibility of awareness annihilating

them.*We* get to bear the feelings of being fundamentally flawed on their behalf

and/or the terribly heavy burden of rescuing them from ever having to face

awareness.Neither of which they can face within themselves so of course we'd

never get a thank you for doing something they are not prepared to acknowledge.

Yes,the hospital thing is deadly trapwise and it's hard--often there

simply isn't an easy answer or solution.Like when my fada died,nada my brother

and my aunt all effing absconded from the hospice.Fada was on pain meds *as

requested* and was in denial of the true nature of how serious his condition was

so he was refusing morphine.The nurses at the hospice were all lovely people and

dedicated professionals but they did have an entire floor of patients to tend to

after all and couldn't possibly give my fada constant one on one care.All of the

" golden " ones who had kept fada's fragile ego from

shattering--nada,brother,aunt--decided that they didn't want him dying to be

their last memory of him.I mean,these were the people he had idealized,and

basically they abandoned him to the kindness of strangers to spare

*themselves*.I've mentioned on here before that my aunt left him a *teddy bear*

to watch over him when she left.So what do you do when the golden ones of the

FOO are all dysfunctional people with shockingly weak characters and you're the

only family left who can see reality,that your dying family member needs someone

to advocate for him because the nurses on the floor cannot reasonably be

expected to give him intensive constant one on one care?

I had been NC with them until fada became mortally ill.My boundaries

and balance got overshadowed by the more pressing contingency of my father dying

in a hospice with nobody to request meds for him or to monitor his condition

hour by hour.I had to approach a nurse myself to get her to help me convince

fada to take morphine because he wasn't going to--within hours of that first

dose his pain got very bad and I had to work with the next nurse on duty to get

the doctor to authorize an increase in the dosage.She was great because the

doctor never got back to us and at my insistence she upped the dosage herself

with me signing off on it.On her own steam she wouldn't have done that which I

understand--but if I hadn't been there at all (since no other family was),fada

wouldn't have had his pain managed from the outset.I suppose the nurses would

have given him something but only once his suffering was very obvious.I say

suppose because his meds were strictly *as requested* and that was per doctor's

orders.

Do you think anyone in the FOO had the foggiest notion of the hours I

spent over three days with practically no sleep having fada's meds adjusted as

his condition worsened so he could rest comfortably? Of course not!

I discovered after fada died that he had completely disinherited me.He

had lied to me about this right to my face,long story.My brother was the hero at

his memorial service because of a computer retrospective of fada's life he had

created that totally wowed the FOO.Oooh...technical wizardry and cheap

sentimentality...

I had offered myself up to be used at fada's hour of most dire need

and got zero credit for doing the sh*t work.For me,that was a moral decision and

although I regretted it for a long time after that slap in the face

disinheritance (which was a gesture of pure spite from fada and his parting shot

to me),I believe now that I did the right thing being there for him when no one

else in the FOO would or could.For me.I'd never,ever judge someone else in a

similar situation if they elected to stay well out of it.Nor would I judge

someone who elected to make that kind of sacrifice.We all have to decide what is

best for us,for ourselves,for our own spirits.There is just so much *wrong* in

this hideous PD dysfunction that there are simply NO cut and dried answers,no

clean solutions.It's going to hurt somehow whichever way we go or are forced to

go.We are all of us only human.

About the karma thing...I've been horrified and angry this past year

especially.I've imagined myself tossing nada's sorry soul into a blackhole to be

obliterated FOREVER.I've had discussions in my head with fada about what an

a-hole he was and how much I RESENT him for all the issues he left me to deal

with.Yes,when someone has caused you that much pain it is impossible not to hate

them for it.

But as I've burned through all that rage I've also realized that I

just don't have it in me to sustain hatefulness and ire.I think of some things

in particular that both of them did to me and I just want to throw up all over

them.They were *sick*--only a sick person could treat a child like that.Their

sickness has mutilated my life in many ways.But I can't just hate them ad

infinitum.

I think that out of a desire to transcend *my own* pain that in the

past I put myself through a head trip of wanting to achieve an understanding

that is probably always going to elude me.I can't know for sure if karma is even

real-- and it doesn't matter if millions of people believe in it;indeed that

might recommend it even less.I think now that believing I could somehow be the

arbiter of whatever " karma " saddled me with nada and fada or them with me by

taking the high road (or the low road or any possible stance imaginable) was

trauma induced narcissistic desperation on my part.I understand the need to

right a wrong that was driving me to want to frame the whole tragedy as a bad

karma issue--but--*anything* that has been suggested through the ages to rectify

" bad karma " isn't going to work with a personality disorder situation.Performing

good deeds to balance out the negativity? As we know--ha!!! Sit back and wait an

eternity for THAT to work...Developing patience for your lot and accepting it?

Yeah,right,while you get used and abused; chewed up and spit out...

I am just personally finished with all consideration of " karma " as a

reference point for how I ended up with my parents because as far as I can see

any solutions to dealing with it don't apply to the personality disordered.And

again,I think now that believing I could arbitrate a " karmic " solution to having

been born to PD parents was me wanting to indulge a narcissistic desire to be

omnipotent,even on the " high road " .I've regretted trying that tack too and

lately that seems to me not so surprising because you get altitude sickness

trying to keep yourself on such an impossibly higher plane.

I find it much more liberating to say: This surpasses my understanding

on a spiritual level; I cannot apprehend why it happened and I do not hold the

answer to resolving it.

" Copy souls " ,well...For most of my life I've been asking myself Why.Why

am I here,why am I going through this,what is the meaning and the purpose if any

of my existence? I've read philosophy and religion to see if anyone seems to

know the answers or an answer.In my meanderings in this vein I happened across

the thoughts of Rose,a mystic from West Virginia who based his entire

spiritual ethos on a vision/dream he had in his early 20s about the " universe's "

inherent indifference to us.I had had a similar dream experience around the same

age and a similar resultant existential questioning so I read more about him

because I was struck by the similarity of what we both experienced.Unlike

myself, Rose placed himself entirely on the seeker's path and set out on

foot to find and apprentice with spiritual practicioners only to discover that

his sought after guru did not exist--he encountered ego trip after ego trip.So

he returned to his hometown in West Virginia and settled into the quiet life of

the contemplative,never fashioning himself as a guru or forming a cult but

attracting a very small following and giving lectures at colleges.Like other

philosopher contemplatives before him--such as Spinoza--he wondered if there was

a method whereby one could consciously endeavour to perpetuate the soul's

existence after death.He wasn't satisfied with the promises of spiritual

salvation that the various organized religions offer because to his view these

rang false.He considered most people to be laboring under what he called " a

vector of ignorance " : believing that the abject condition of desiring to live on

just as they were with all of their flaws and blindspots unexamined yet

expecting ultimate absolution for them is a folly of narcissistic self regard.He

believed that one must undertake a conscious shedding of attachment to the ego

in order to merge in spirit after death with the eternal.Sort of like the

Buddhists but his view of it sought to burn out *all* sentimentality,even

compassion for human foibles and weaknesses.To his view,giving the willfully

self indulgent a pass because they can't do better is akin to enabling the

eventual obliteration of their souls: his message was,You CAN do better and you

MUST try to...in Rose's spiritual world there would be no Boddhisatvas

hanging around to carry the weight of the lost souls and hanging back from

Nirvana until all could achieve it; to him,*you* are your own Boddhisatva NOW or

you can be and it is up to you and nobody else can save you from yourself...

" Copy souls " would be the ones choosing to swill in a " vector of

ignorance " unto their own eventual obliteration--as in with the death of the ego

there would be no further existence because the ego is of the mind and not of

the soul.Those who choose their egos over their souls will perish with them.They

were,in effect,only " copies " of their own self regard and one's self regard is

limited only unto oneself and it dies along with the body.In his vision,

Rose saw a multitude of people beating one another down and crawling over one

another and killing one another with their own self regard and the only ones who

survived were the ones who consciously removed themselves from the battle of

whose self regard would reign supreme: a futile battle because self regard will

not and cannot ever reign supreme in the greater spiritual scheme of things; it

will inevitably perish as will the self that invested itself in battling for its

own sake.It's a dead end.

You could extrapolate a VERY bleak view of our ultimate spiritual fate

from that,I suppose,or it could act as a spur.According to that view,all of our

nadas and fadas would be mere " copy souls " doomed to obliteration by their own

egotistical self regard.

Just in the past couple of months,over the summer,I've dropped these

ideas because I think they amount to spiritual vindictiveness.Who am I--or

anyone else--to claim to know what is or should be the fate of our souls? It is

no more my place to toss nada into a blackhole than it is for me to believe that

the forgiveness I felt for my fada at the moment when he died would have

absolved his sins.

Having an illness like BPD is biological,whether genetically innate or

caused by damage after birth,it is a physical fact.BPD's don't give it to

themselves;they don't cause their own illness.The more I read and the more I

think it over,the more having BPD (and the whole Cluster B spectrum) seems to be

as profoundly involuntary as being born with Down Syndrome.It's a tragedy--and

it's a tragedy for us KO's who must bear the brunt of what is an illness that

afflicts its sufferers to a degree where they cannot properly function as

parents.It is a tragic genetic defect--and in the same way that an individual

with an IQ of 60 wouldn't be left to raise a child without intervention,neither

should anyone diagnosed with BPD be left to raise a child.They can't.And it

seems to me that in a similar way to how some higher functioning individuals

with Down Syndrome are able to keep a job and even an independant living

situation while most can't,the BPD/Cluster B who gets into therapy and improves

is a rarity.

Would anyone say that someone with Down Syndrome has no hope of

spiritual salvation because they don't care about anyone but themselves? I don't

think so.Clearly,their condition isn't their fault.

I am at the point myself of believing that BPDs/Cluster Bs are

genetically and developmentally--not spiritually--flawed.I don't think they'll

be going to hell for their crimes against us.Both of my parents abused me in

ways that could have landed them in jail--because they were mentally ill.I don't

believe that either of them was " born demonic " although they did evil things to

me.I think they were too sick to truly apprehend what they were doing--the rabid

dog analogy comes to mind.

I enjoy pondering life's inexplicables--and of course continue to feel

compelled to want to " figure out " various aspects of nada/fada's PD-ness--but

right now I'm not into entertaining spiritual tyrannies of any stripe.I see more

and more that I actually don't even know what I don't know.And what I think I do

know is continuously up for revision ;)

>

> , I just posted some stuff that might also go in this response about

my experience with my nada in the hospital. Much like yours with your fada. It

seems like there's just something deadly about the hospital scenario. Even if

we (KO's) have managed to keep decent boundaries and balance beforehand, once

there is a serious illness it tests everything. Your fada being so grateful to

the balloon giver - yep. So familiar. What killed me was that my nada showed

*genuine* gratitude to these outsiders, a level of which I never saw. One

person asked if they " could get her anything else " when visiting her and my nada

told me that that just meant so much to her that it was " above rubies " . What

she ultimately wanted was someone to serve her.

>

> I have to smile about the part where you were in the spiritual place trying to

straighten out the karma. There are times I've tried that. Often it ends up

with me regretting it. I don't know if it is possible to come from an open and

loving place to relate to someone who has caused so much pain. It's a sad

thing.

>

> One time long ago you mentioned something about " copy souls " - I'd be curious

to know more and how you think it related to personality disorders.

>

>

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Hi ,

My fada had a couple of different medical crises that landed him in the

hospital before he did die,ironically,of something he hadn't yet been diagnosed

with.With every crisis there was some kind of " balloon giver " to whom he

was,like you said,*genuinely* grateful.The excerpt from " Meaning From Madness "

that Annie posted gave me another ah ha about fada's gratitude in terms of him

living in dread of being judged (and I think that with the Cluster B crowd that

fear takes on truly delusional proportions way beyond a normal dread of being

viewed in a negative light by others--it's like they feel fundamentally that

they don't have a leg to stand on so they will appropriate any leg they can find

to prop themselves up with).If we are only an extension of that fundamentally

flawed " leg " then our propping doesn't count--but the people who aren't tainted

by association with that fundamentally flawed self/extension are perceived by

the BPD/Cluster B as " pure " and their offerings,however objectively

superficial,are therefore " above rubies " .Like when that person sent my fada the

balloon bouquet (a fellow soccer coach) what that meant to him was: I am a

soccer coach/ I am such a good soccer coach that this colleague has thought of

me.I mean,that is what he inferred from that token gesture and why it was so

" wonderful " to him: his association with that balloon giver was " purely "

untainted by his fundamental flaw because that guy only knew him as a soccer

coach,as something " good " that he wasn't judged for.And perhaps when that person

in the hospital asked your nada if they could " get her anything else " what she

inferred from that was: This person sees me as the kind of person you should ask

to get " anything else " for,that therefore means that I am worthy good and

unflawed.

I think these " outside of the self " people function to them like the

talking mirror did for the wicked queen in Snow White with nada/fada

saying, " Mirror,mirror on the wall...who is OK after all? " And these people with

their small gestures are the talking mirror that replies, " Why YOU are,you are

the most ok of all " ...(well,at this exact moment you are and since you live in

the moment hey presto! you have transcended all flaw)

Which serves them by reassuring them and although to an objective

observer the gesture is very superficial I think that for them it serves as the

resuscitation of their ego that they constantly believe they need,since the

alternative would be facing their flaws head on and that would completely

*annihilate* them.I think that's why these gestures become so overblown in their

minds,because they believe that they *need* the ego bolstering to ward off the

annihilating potential of their fundamental flawedness.Again,I don't think this

is entirely conscious on their part since in order to be conscious of feeling

fundamentally flawed you'd have to admit that into your awareness and much of

what they do is a fleeing from the possibility of awareness annihilating

them.*We* get to bear the feelings of being fundamentally flawed on their behalf

and/or the terribly heavy burden of rescuing them from ever having to face

awareness.Neither of which they can face within themselves so of course we'd

never get a thank you for doing something they are not prepared to acknowledge.

Yes,the hospital thing is deadly trapwise and it's hard--often there

simply isn't an easy answer or solution.Like when my fada died,nada my brother

and my aunt all effing absconded from the hospice.Fada was on pain meds *as

requested* and was in denial of the true nature of how serious his condition was

so he was refusing morphine.The nurses at the hospice were all lovely people and

dedicated professionals but they did have an entire floor of patients to tend to

after all and couldn't possibly give my fada constant one on one care.All of the

" golden " ones who had kept fada's fragile ego from

shattering--nada,brother,aunt--decided that they didn't want him dying to be

their last memory of him.I mean,these were the people he had idealized,and

basically they abandoned him to the kindness of strangers to spare

*themselves*.I've mentioned on here before that my aunt left him a *teddy bear*

to watch over him when she left.So what do you do when the golden ones of the

FOO are all dysfunctional people with shockingly weak characters and you're the

only family left who can see reality,that your dying family member needs someone

to advocate for him because the nurses on the floor cannot reasonably be

expected to give him intensive constant one on one care?

I had been NC with them until fada became mortally ill.My boundaries

and balance got overshadowed by the more pressing contingency of my father dying

in a hospice with nobody to request meds for him or to monitor his condition

hour by hour.I had to approach a nurse myself to get her to help me convince

fada to take morphine because he wasn't going to--within hours of that first

dose his pain got very bad and I had to work with the next nurse on duty to get

the doctor to authorize an increase in the dosage.She was great because the

doctor never got back to us and at my insistence she upped the dosage herself

with me signing off on it.On her own steam she wouldn't have done that which I

understand--but if I hadn't been there at all (since no other family was),fada

wouldn't have had his pain managed from the outset.I suppose the nurses would

have given him something but only once his suffering was very obvious.I say

suppose because his meds were strictly *as requested* and that was per doctor's

orders.

Do you think anyone in the FOO had the foggiest notion of the hours I

spent over three days with practically no sleep having fada's meds adjusted as

his condition worsened so he could rest comfortably? Of course not!

I discovered after fada died that he had completely disinherited me.He

had lied to me about this right to my face,long story.My brother was the hero at

his memorial service because of a computer retrospective of fada's life he had

created that totally wowed the FOO.Oooh...technical wizardry and cheap

sentimentality...

I had offered myself up to be used at fada's hour of most dire need

and got zero credit for doing the sh*t work.For me,that was a moral decision and

although I regretted it for a long time after that slap in the face

disinheritance (which was a gesture of pure spite from fada and his parting shot

to me),I believe now that I did the right thing being there for him when no one

else in the FOO would or could.For me.I'd never,ever judge someone else in a

similar situation if they elected to stay well out of it.Nor would I judge

someone who elected to make that kind of sacrifice.We all have to decide what is

best for us,for ourselves,for our own spirits.There is just so much *wrong* in

this hideous PD dysfunction that there are simply NO cut and dried answers,no

clean solutions.It's going to hurt somehow whichever way we go or are forced to

go.We are all of us only human.

About the karma thing...I've been horrified and angry this past year

especially.I've imagined myself tossing nada's sorry soul into a blackhole to be

obliterated FOREVER.I've had discussions in my head with fada about what an

a-hole he was and how much I RESENT him for all the issues he left me to deal

with.Yes,when someone has caused you that much pain it is impossible not to hate

them for it.

But as I've burned through all that rage I've also realized that I

just don't have it in me to sustain hatefulness and ire.I think of some things

in particular that both of them did to me and I just want to throw up all over

them.They were *sick*--only a sick person could treat a child like that.Their

sickness has mutilated my life in many ways.But I can't just hate them ad

infinitum.

I think that out of a desire to transcend *my own* pain that in the

past I put myself through a head trip of wanting to achieve an understanding

that is probably always going to elude me.I can't know for sure if karma is even

real-- and it doesn't matter if millions of people believe in it;indeed that

might recommend it even less.I think now that believing I could somehow be the

arbiter of whatever " karma " saddled me with nada and fada or them with me by

taking the high road (or the low road or any possible stance imaginable) was

trauma induced narcissistic desperation on my part.I understand the need to

right a wrong that was driving me to want to frame the whole tragedy as a bad

karma issue--but--*anything* that has been suggested through the ages to rectify

" bad karma " isn't going to work with a personality disorder situation.Performing

good deeds to balance out the negativity? As we know--ha!!! Sit back and wait an

eternity for THAT to work...Developing patience for your lot and accepting it?

Yeah,right,while you get used and abused; chewed up and spit out...

I am just personally finished with all consideration of " karma " as a

reference point for how I ended up with my parents because as far as I can see

any solutions to dealing with it don't apply to the personality disordered.And

again,I think now that believing I could arbitrate a " karmic " solution to having

been born to PD parents was me wanting to indulge a narcissistic desire to be

omnipotent,even on the " high road " .I've regretted trying that tack too and

lately that seems to me not so surprising because you get altitude sickness

trying to keep yourself on such an impossibly higher plane.

I find it much more liberating to say: This surpasses my understanding

on a spiritual level; I cannot apprehend why it happened and I do not hold the

answer to resolving it.

" Copy souls " ,well...For most of my life I've been asking myself Why.Why

am I here,why am I going through this,what is the meaning and the purpose if any

of my existence? I've read philosophy and religion to see if anyone seems to

know the answers or an answer.In my meanderings in this vein I happened across

the thoughts of Rose,a mystic from West Virginia who based his entire

spiritual ethos on a vision/dream he had in his early 20s about the " universe's "

inherent indifference to us.I had had a similar dream experience around the same

age and a similar resultant existential questioning so I read more about him

because I was struck by the similarity of what we both experienced.Unlike

myself, Rose placed himself entirely on the seeker's path and set out on

foot to find and apprentice with spiritual practicioners only to discover that

his sought after guru did not exist--he encountered ego trip after ego trip.So

he returned to his hometown in West Virginia and settled into the quiet life of

the contemplative,never fashioning himself as a guru or forming a cult but

attracting a very small following and giving lectures at colleges.Like other

philosopher contemplatives before him--such as Spinoza--he wondered if there was

a method whereby one could consciously endeavour to perpetuate the soul's

existence after death.He wasn't satisfied with the promises of spiritual

salvation that the various organized religions offer because to his view these

rang false.He considered most people to be laboring under what he called " a

vector of ignorance " : believing that the abject condition of desiring to live on

just as they were with all of their flaws and blindspots unexamined yet

expecting ultimate absolution for them is a folly of narcissistic self regard.He

believed that one must undertake a conscious shedding of attachment to the ego

in order to merge in spirit after death with the eternal.Sort of like the

Buddhists but his view of it sought to burn out *all* sentimentality,even

compassion for human foibles and weaknesses.To his view,giving the willfully

self indulgent a pass because they can't do better is akin to enabling the

eventual obliteration of their souls: his message was,You CAN do better and you

MUST try to...in Rose's spiritual world there would be no Boddhisatvas

hanging around to carry the weight of the lost souls and hanging back from

Nirvana until all could achieve it; to him,*you* are your own Boddhisatva NOW or

you can be and it is up to you and nobody else can save you from yourself...

" Copy souls " would be the ones choosing to swill in a " vector of

ignorance " unto their own eventual obliteration--as in with the death of the ego

there would be no further existence because the ego is of the mind and not of

the soul.Those who choose their egos over their souls will perish with them.They

were,in effect,only " copies " of their own self regard and one's self regard is

limited only unto oneself and it dies along with the body.In his vision,

Rose saw a multitude of people beating one another down and crawling over one

another and killing one another with their own self regard and the only ones who

survived were the ones who consciously removed themselves from the battle of

whose self regard would reign supreme: a futile battle because self regard will

not and cannot ever reign supreme in the greater spiritual scheme of things; it

will inevitably perish as will the self that invested itself in battling for its

own sake.It's a dead end.

You could extrapolate a VERY bleak view of our ultimate spiritual fate

from that,I suppose,or it could act as a spur.According to that view,all of our

nadas and fadas would be mere " copy souls " doomed to obliteration by their own

egotistical self regard.

Just in the past couple of months,over the summer,I've dropped these

ideas because I think they amount to spiritual vindictiveness.Who am I--or

anyone else--to claim to know what is or should be the fate of our souls? It is

no more my place to toss nada into a blackhole than it is for me to believe that

the forgiveness I felt for my fada at the moment when he died would have

absolved his sins.

Having an illness like BPD is biological,whether genetically innate or

caused by damage after birth,it is a physical fact.BPD's don't give it to

themselves;they don't cause their own illness.The more I read and the more I

think it over,the more having BPD (and the whole Cluster B spectrum) seems to be

as profoundly involuntary as being born with Down Syndrome.It's a tragedy--and

it's a tragedy for us KO's who must bear the brunt of what is an illness that

afflicts its sufferers to a degree where they cannot properly function as

parents.It is a tragic genetic defect--and in the same way that an individual

with an IQ of 60 wouldn't be left to raise a child without intervention,neither

should anyone diagnosed with BPD be left to raise a child.They can't.And it

seems to me that in a similar way to how some higher functioning individuals

with Down Syndrome are able to keep a job and even an independant living

situation while most can't,the BPD/Cluster B who gets into therapy and improves

is a rarity.

Would anyone say that someone with Down Syndrome has no hope of

spiritual salvation because they don't care about anyone but themselves? I don't

think so.Clearly,their condition isn't their fault.

I am at the point myself of believing that BPDs/Cluster Bs are

genetically and developmentally--not spiritually--flawed.I don't think they'll

be going to hell for their crimes against us.Both of my parents abused me in

ways that could have landed them in jail--because they were mentally ill.I don't

believe that either of them was " born demonic " although they did evil things to

me.I think they were too sick to truly apprehend what they were doing--the rabid

dog analogy comes to mind.

I enjoy pondering life's inexplicables--and of course continue to feel

compelled to want to " figure out " various aspects of nada/fada's PD-ness--but

right now I'm not into entertaining spiritual tyrannies of any stripe.I see more

and more that I actually don't even know what I don't know.And what I think I do

know is continuously up for revision ;)

>

> , I just posted some stuff that might also go in this response about

my experience with my nada in the hospital. Much like yours with your fada. It

seems like there's just something deadly about the hospital scenario. Even if

we (KO's) have managed to keep decent boundaries and balance beforehand, once

there is a serious illness it tests everything. Your fada being so grateful to

the balloon giver - yep. So familiar. What killed me was that my nada showed

*genuine* gratitude to these outsiders, a level of which I never saw. One

person asked if they " could get her anything else " when visiting her and my nada

told me that that just meant so much to her that it was " above rubies " . What

she ultimately wanted was someone to serve her.

>

> I have to smile about the part where you were in the spiritual place trying to

straighten out the karma. There are times I've tried that. Often it ends up

with me regretting it. I don't know if it is possible to come from an open and

loving place to relate to someone who has caused so much pain. It's a sad

thing.

>

> One time long ago you mentioned something about " copy souls " - I'd be curious

to know more and how you think it related to personality disorders.

>

>

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Hi , here's goes my reply here a bit more disjointed than yours but

hopefully still readable!

" This person sees me as the kind of person you should ask

to get " anything else " for,that therefore means that I am worthy good and

unflawed. "

Very insightful - the core of what seems to make my nada flip out is input that

she's imperfect in any way. As a mother... As a housekeeper... As a driver...

Anything at all. So I can see what you mean about the deep value to her that

outside validation means for her and those like your father.

" *We* get to bear the feelings of being fundamentally flawed on their behalf

and/or the terribly heavy burden of rescuing them from ever having to face

awareness.Neither of which they can face within themselves so of course we'd

never get a thank you for doing something they are not prepared to acknowledge. "

Hell, yeah! When I saved my nada from bankruptcy, helped her move, restored

her home to functioning when she was sick (long story there).....her response

was as if I'd given her a bundt cake. But like you say had she understood and

acknowledged what I'd done, she would also have understood her flaws and

failings which apparently would make her implode.

" So what do you do when the golden ones of the

FOO are all dysfunctional people with shockingly weak characters and you're the

only family left who can see reality,that your dying family member needs someone

to advocate for him because the nurses on the floor cannot reasonably be

expected to give him intensive constant one on one care? "

Yep, it leaves one in quite a fix. Did that teddy bear help him out much???

No, it was you! My aunt has often exaggerated her own contributions and

minimized mine. At the end of the day though I've been the one to carry the

heavier part of this and I don't doubt when my nada is in the hospital it'll

still be me who has to be assertive with doctors and advocate. I had to do

that for my grandmother many times who was in the nursing home - one example she

went mute after a medication was changed and my aunt and nada both were

comfortable not doing anything about it. I had to fight them like hell to get

through to her doctors to get it changed - and she was able to talk again.

Imagine two *apparently* devoted daughters being okay with their bed-ridden

mother becoming mute? Bit of a side-trip there, but your father was damn

lucky you were willing to be there for him. Guess when he made his will out

there's much he didn't understand.

" There is just so much *wrong* in

this hideous PD dysfunction that there are simply NO cut and dried answers,no

clean solutions.It's going to hurt somehow whichever way we go or are forced to

go.We are all of us only human. "

I think this is part of what's so confounding for me that there is no

non-painful solution that I can find in terms of my ongoing FOO relationships.

It's a no-win scenario.

" But as I've burned through all that rage I've also realized that I

just don't have it in me to sustain hatefulness and ire. "

It is exhausting. I go through phases like that too where I wonder if I just

feel it enough will some magical healing occur. It doesn't really, but there

is a point at which it just seems like a self-poisoning to dwell in that space

of hate no matter how much they deserve it.

" I think now that believing I could arbitrate a " karmic " solution to having

been born to PD parents was me wanting to indulge a narcissistic desire to be

omnipotent,even on the " high road " .I "

It's only natural to want to adopt a belief system that allows some feeling of

control over what happens. Easy to fall into illusions, but I don't think it

is so crazy to try. You'd be amazed at what spiritual answers I've been told

by psychics and shamans about why things are as they are with my nada, why I was

born into this life - the answers make me rather ill. So I choose to hold them

in reserve - that it " might " be true, but I don't accept that as truth. I'm

glad you've left the path of trying to be " so good " that things might be

okay...it's not a safe bargain for KO's.

About the " copy souls " and Rose very interesting though I disagree with

him. I had imagined something quite different from the phrase! Visions are a

tricky business, how many religions have been started over them? how many have

claimed to perceive an absolute truth from it? And sometimes it is and

sometimes it isn't. I'm glad you've stepped away form this pov....it would be

a pretty difficult view of the universe to carry. Not saying I have a market

on " how it is " but based on all that feels true for me that's not how things

work. The people struggling ego against ego is absolutey a part of this

world, but each person has layers of existence deeper underneath the ego that

fit into the equation and that doesn't get obliterated.

" I am at the point myself of believing that BPDs/Cluster Bs are

genetically and developmentally--not spiritually--flawed.I don't think they'll

be going to hell for their crimes against us. "

I really liked your Down's Syndrome analogy - yep their brain's have damage

genetic and maybe environmental together, but their ability to freely choose

functional behavior is not the same as for a healthy person. I believe in

reincarnation and some version of karma, so I do think there are consequences

down the line, but it's not as simple as go to hell or go to heaven. Some of

what they do they truly can't help, but some of what they do is a choice and

that part I think they have liability for. But again that's just my

speculation. The one thing I feel pretty sure of is that Rose's view of souls

just getting obliterated feels wrong to me, we all go on in one form or another.

" I see more

and more that I actually don't even know what I don't know.And what I think I do

know is continuously up for revision ;) "

Hey that's the way to go, the second we decide we know what the truth is no more

new information can enter!

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Posted
Posted

,your post wasn't in the slightest bit disjointed :)

I can definitely imagine two " devoted " (uhm:disordered) daughters being ok

with their mother going mute from a medication an authority figure had given to

her--good for you for standing up and advocating for her.Their passivity can be

maddening.

I didn't give a very good over view of Rose's views--my " excuse "

being that I had something else going on on Sunday and was a bit

distracted...but I think he was sincere in his seeking after spiritual

truth.That is always a slippery slope.

I am myself in a transitional phase right now--I feel that much of what I

believed I *wanted* to believe.Like you,I wouldn't say that I have a market on

" how it is " .And it all gets very tricky when so much psychological trauma is

involved.Rose proposed adopting an " Observer " stance towards personal problems

and that requires much discipline to achieve in a healthy way.I had to do that

as a child and it got me into a habit of depersonalizing/dissociating ,so now as

an adult I have to retrain that to be something more personally functional.

I'm just not up to the task right now of giving an adequate synopsis of

Rose's views but one thing he advocated was proceeding from what is untruth

rather than holding on to what one assumes is a or *the* truth.Shedding untruth

bit by bit to pare one's view of being down to what would more closely

approximate truth.He didn't advocate a feel good discipline,so it's not for

everyone--what he proposed was less about reassuring oneself with what we wish

could be than seeking to clarify oneself by learning to acknowledge what *is*.

Personally--and this is just me--I want to get beyond both giving my

parents a " pass " for their behavior AND condemning them for it.I mean,I want to

step beyond that.For me right now,saying that my parents did know better on some

levels and could have controlled themselves is still getting into wanting to

find that pause button that could reverse the past.The past is what it is now

and I have to confront the damage for my own sake.Even though my nada claimed to

have " purposefully " torn me down,to my view right now she was also wanting to

claim a power and control over *herself* that she didn't really have--how much

easier to tell yourself that you did it on purpose than to admit to yourself

that you couldn't stop it because you needed help--to me her saying she did any

of the abuse " purposefully " is an expression of denial and weakness plus it is

sad and pathetic.Because anyone who is truly in command of their own mind

wouldn't purposefully choose to be so destructive.It did her no good.

Right now all of it seems more sad to me than a cause for rage.I can't

bring myself to mention the precise details but one Friday night when she was

driving me and my first boyfriend to the skating rink for a date,she said

something humiliating to me out of the blue,some scatalogical humor,and my

boyfriend laughed at it/at me...which is exactly what she wanted: to ruin my

evening with him before it even began...I imagine her now driving home that

night after dropping us off and the thought of her feeling *any* satisfaction

over making her fourteen year old daughter ashamed of herself as she drove home

is deeply deeply pathetic.I'd be squirming in my seat and feeling horrible if

I'd done something like that to a fourteen year old who was all excited about

going on a date with a boy who had asked her out.I'd think: Oh god,what is wrong

with me? I just stooped *really* low; I am pathetic...

If she was pleased with herself that night,to me,that is incredibly

pathetic.It's an incredible waste.She wasted her life as a mother; she did her

own self down.Only a sick mind would come up with what she said,only a sick mind

would go ahead and actually *say* it.Only a sick and helpless person would then

flatter their ego with notions of doing such things " on purpose " .What kind of

power is that? It is no power--lashing out is not owning your power.It is caving

to your own weakness,to my view,it is completely pathetic.She was a sick woman

and that sickness wasted her life,wasted away any goodness and true happiness

she might have known.It's a total waste.

To me right now that is very sad.I feel sorry for her--not in a way

that I want to " forgive " her for her behavior,but in a way that goes beyond

needing to bother with forgiveness.That seems to me right now to be beside the

point.She was and she is sick.If she had known that,she wouldn't have put it on

me.She had no courage at all--she was profoundly weak.She is profoundly pathetic

and sad--her entire life has been and will be wasted by this.Even if she never

truly knows in this life what she did wrong--she will also never know the bounty

beauty and peace of doing your best; of seeking and finding rightness and

wholeness for yourself even when it hurts...she will never know what it is to be

fully and simply human..she lost out on *life*; her illness consumed her.

But I don't have to live like that.I'm feeling a ton of grief lately

over how many years of my own life her sickness took from me.It's tragically sad

for both of us.She is stuck where she is.But I have the potential to

grow.Life,for me,is still there to be lived.Her liabilities are her own at this

point.No longer mine.I don't believe in a straight up heaven or hell and I no

longer know if I even believe in reincarnation but I do know that I don't want

to waste this life I have been given the way she wasted hers.Even with this

grief: my own life is still *there* to be lived...I survived her,not intact,but

I survived--judgment of her I leave to a wsidom greater than my own.

>

> Hi , here's goes my reply here a bit more disjointed than yours but

hopefully still readable!

>

> " This person sees me as the kind of person you should ask

> to get " anything else " for,that therefore means that I am worthy good and

> unflawed. "

>

> Very insightful - the core of what seems to make my nada flip out is input

that she's imperfect in any way. As a mother... As a housekeeper... As a

driver... Anything at all. So I can see what you mean about the deep value

to her that outside validation means for her and those like your father.

>

> " *We* get to bear the feelings of being fundamentally flawed on their behalf

> and/or the terribly heavy burden of rescuing them from ever having to face

> awareness.Neither of which they can face within themselves so of course we'd

> never get a thank you for doing something they are not prepared to

acknowledge. "

>

> Hell, yeah! When I saved my nada from bankruptcy, helped her move, restored

her home to functioning when she was sick (long story there).....her response

was as if I'd given her a bundt cake. But like you say had she understood and

acknowledged what I'd done, she would also have understood her flaws and

failings which apparently would make her implode.

>

> " So what do you do when the golden ones of the

> FOO are all dysfunctional people with shockingly weak characters and you're

the

> only family left who can see reality,that your dying family member needs

someone

> to advocate for him because the nurses on the floor cannot reasonably be

> expected to give him intensive constant one on one care? "

>

> Yep, it leaves one in quite a fix. Did that teddy bear help him out much???

No, it was you! My aunt has often exaggerated her own contributions and

minimized mine. At the end of the day though I've been the one to carry the

heavier part of this and I don't doubt when my nada is in the hospital it'll

still be me who has to be assertive with doctors and advocate. I had to do

that for my grandmother many times who was in the nursing home - one example she

went mute after a medication was changed and my aunt and nada both were

comfortable not doing anything about it. I had to fight them like hell to get

through to her doctors to get it changed - and she was able to talk again.

Imagine two *apparently* devoted daughters being okay with their bed-ridden

mother becoming mute? Bit of a side-trip there, but your father was damn

lucky you were willing to be there for him. Guess when he made his will out

there's much he didn't understand.

>

> " There is just so much *wrong* in

> this hideous PD dysfunction that there are simply NO cut and dried answers,no

> clean solutions.It's going to hurt somehow whichever way we go or are forced

to

> go.We are all of us only human. "

> I think this is part of what's so confounding for me that there is no

non-painful solution that I can find in terms of my ongoing FOO relationships.

It's a no-win scenario.

>

> " But as I've burned through all that rage I've also realized that I

> just don't have it in me to sustain hatefulness and ire. "

> It is exhausting. I go through phases like that too where I wonder if I just

feel it enough will some magical healing occur. It doesn't really, but there

is a point at which it just seems like a self-poisoning to dwell in that space

of hate no matter how much they deserve it.

>

> " I think now that believing I could arbitrate a " karmic " solution to having

> been born to PD parents was me wanting to indulge a narcissistic desire to be

> omnipotent,even on the " high road " .I "

> It's only natural to want to adopt a belief system that allows some feeling of

control over what happens. Easy to fall into illusions, but I don't think it

is so crazy to try. You'd be amazed at what spiritual answers I've been told

by psychics and shamans about why things are as they are with my nada, why I was

born into this life - the answers make me rather ill. So I choose to hold them

in reserve - that it " might " be true, but I don't accept that as truth. I'm

glad you've left the path of trying to be " so good " that things might be

okay...it's not a safe bargain for KO's.

>

> About the " copy souls " and Rose very interesting though I disagree

with him. I had imagined something quite different from the phrase! Visions

are a tricky business, how many religions have been started over them? how

many have claimed to perceive an absolute truth from it? And sometimes it is

and sometimes it isn't. I'm glad you've stepped away form this pov....it would

be a pretty difficult view of the universe to carry. Not saying I have a

market on " how it is " but based on all that feels true for me that's not how

things work. The people struggling ego against ego is absolutey a part of

this world, but each person has layers of existence deeper underneath the ego

that fit into the equation and that doesn't get obliterated.

>

> " I am at the point myself of believing that BPDs/Cluster Bs are

> genetically and developmentally--not spiritually--flawed.I don't think they'll

> be going to hell for their crimes against us. "

> I really liked your Down's Syndrome analogy - yep their brain's have damage

genetic and maybe environmental together, but their ability to freely choose

functional behavior is not the same as for a healthy person. I believe in

reincarnation and some version of karma, so I do think there are consequences

down the line, but it's not as simple as go to hell or go to heaven. Some of

what they do they truly can't help, but some of what they do is a choice and

that part I think they have liability for. But again that's just my

speculation. The one thing I feel pretty sure of is that Rose's view of souls

just getting obliterated feels wrong to me, we all go on in one form or another.

>

> " I see more

> and more that I actually don't even know what I don't know.And what I think I

do

> know is continuously up for revision ;) "

> Hey that's the way to go, the second we decide we know what the truth is no

more new information can enter!

>

>

>

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