purposeful guilt

[Guest guest]

I know we all have experienced the guilt dished out by the BP parent in our

lives. I had several dished out to me this weekend. I know that it is done on

purpose- to further meet my nada's physical, social or emotional needs.

I am having this personal revelation- how purposeful this guilt is and how

manipulative it is when the Bp parent is when laying on this guilt. Know wonder

we have so much FOG and shame to carry within us. That is why the tools, the

boundaries and the methods we use to lift the FOG is so vital to are own inner

peace and healthiness.

I am not sure how I am going to start dealing with this purposeful guilt-

because in the past I have always responded so well to it- and listened to all

the bs throw my way.

Any- suggestions on how each of your deal with this kind of guilt?

Thanks,

Malinda

[Guest guest]

Hi Malinda, for me the ultimate deflection of that guilt that they try to make

me feel for their own purposes is if I can see their agenda. Usually the

agenda is to make me do something for their benefit that may hurt me but they

clearly don't care. Once I can see the selfishness and manipulation as what it

is and that it is NOT even remotely about whether I'm a good person or not that

helps lift it. Now, the rub of course is that it isn't always easy for me to

have this awareness in real time, sometimes it takes me a little while to catch

up.

In the end who are they to judge your " goodness " ?

>

> I know we all have experienced the guilt dished out by the BP parent in our

lives. I had several dished out to me this weekend. I know that it is done on

purpose- to further meet my nada's physical, social or emotional needs.

>

> I am having this personal revelation- how purposeful this guilt is and how

manipulative it is when the Bp parent is when laying on this guilt. Know wonder

we have so much FOG and shame to carry within us. That is why the tools, the

boundaries and the methods we use to lift the FOG is so vital to are own inner

peace and healthiness.

>

> I am not sure how I am going to start dealing with this purposeful guilt-

because in the past I have always responded so well to it- and listened to all

the bs throw my way.

>

> Any- suggestions on how each of your deal with this kind of guilt?

>

> Thanks,

> Malinda

>

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for the responses- each word of support posted here- always gives me such

validation. The agenda is always about them and yes I can let her determine my

goodness- how wrong and how sad. Thanks for your insights!

Marilyn,

Your respone really hit home with me- I do try to remember the protection of

the white light- and I will remember that visual the next time the unkind and

guilty words come from nada. I forget the power I have in this situation. -

thank you!

[Guest guest]

with my mother I am only now seeing it.

I was sharing on another thread about the last time I mopped her kitchen floor

and SIL came in and tracked it up. Then a week later she was hinting I mop it

and was sighing, 'nobody cares' and then last week when I went in and did it she

was like 'why do you care' and hassled me literally the whole time I was doing

it.

Truth is she doesn't see me as a human being. She sees me as a sounding board.

When she doesn't need me to dump her agony on, I am a bad person or just

irrelevant in her life.

I only now understand I have to let go of the whole relationship. I realize I

can't have the 'good' because the bad is too painful. In order to dismiss the

bad I have to stay detached from the 'good'. Otherwise it just makes me crazy.

Sometimes I think having a hot/cold parent is worse than having one that is

completely bonkers %100 of the time. Because the damage goes on alot longer when

you are led to believe you are somehow 'causing' the bad side to come out, and

you waste precious moments (years) of your life trying to figure out how to

prevent that from happening. With me I am searching for a way to let go...she

really doesn't miss me much when I am not around so I am not one of the ones

that has to deal with crying begging and pleading, thank god.

>

> I know we all have experienced the guilt dished out by the BP parent in our

lives. I had several dished out to me this weekend. I know that it is done on

purpose- to further meet my nada's physical, social or emotional needs.

>

> I am having this personal revelation- how purposeful this guilt is and how

manipulative it is when the Bp parent is when laying on this guilt. Know wonder

we have so much FOG and shame to carry within us. That is why the tools, the

boundaries and the methods we use to lift the FOG is so vital to are own inner

peace and healthiness.

>

> I am not sure how I am going to start dealing with this purposeful guilt-

because in the past I have always responded so well to it- and listened to all

the bs throw my way.

>

> Any- suggestions on how each of your deal with this kind of guilt?

>

> Thanks,

> Malinda

>

[Guest guest]

I agree: it seems to me in so many cases posted here (and at other groups) that

our personality-disordered parents really are incapable of a normal parent-child

relationship.

We seem to become any number of things to the bpd person EXCEPT their adult

child who has the same human rights as they do, and is as worthy of respect as

they are, simply as a fellow human being on this Earth.

We are instead treated as mere objects put here for their use, like a toy or a

doll for them to play with and then drop in the backyard when they become

distracted, or like a pet that gets dragged along by a rope where they want to

go. Or like a handy punching bag for them to take out their pent-up rage and

aggression on, either physically, emotionally, or both.

We are an extension of their own self, like an abulatory third arm they grew, or

a mindless co-joined twin that has no thoughts of its own, no feelings, no

opinions and no voice.

We are perceived as their servant, their caretaker, or their parent who is

supposed to nurture them and rescue them from their own bad decisions.

In very disturbing cases we can be perceived as their substitute spouse or

sexual plaything. At another Group I frequent, one woman member in great anguish

recently shared how her personality-disordered mother has been sexually abusing

her since she was a child, and even though she no longer permits any physical

contact her mother still makes sly, disgusting, seductive and wildly

inappropriate " romantic " comments to her adult daughter.

Some very disturbed personality-disordered parents use their child as trade

goods. One poster at the Group for the adult children of narcissistic pd

parents wrote how her mother actually gave her to a man for a couple of weeks in

exchange for drugs, when the child was only about 10. That poster is lucky to

be alive, and not suicidally depressed. She said she has been fighting

depression most of her life.

Sometimes we are perceived as their enemy who is out to use them or hurt them.

We become the villain and persecutor and they see themselves as the perpetual

victim.

In other words, its possible for the personality-disordered parent to perceive

their own child as anything and everything *except* simply their child, who is

an individual, who deserves respect, and is now an adult.

Very disturbing and very damaging to never get a sense of just being yourself:

the unique, individual human being that you are, by your own mother or father.

-Annie

> >

> > I know we all have experienced the guilt dished out by the BP parent in our

lives. I had several dished out to me this weekend. I know that it is done on

purpose- to further meet my nada's physical, social or emotional needs.

> >

> > I am having this personal revelation- how purposeful this guilt is and

how manipulative it is when the Bp parent is when laying on this guilt. Know

wonder we have so much FOG and shame to carry within us. That is why the tools,

the boundaries and the methods we use to lift the FOG is so vital to are own

inner peace and healthiness.

> >

> > I am not sure how I am going to start dealing with this purposeful guilt-

because in the past I have always responded so well to it- and listened to all

the bs throw my way.

> >

> > Any- suggestions on how each of your deal with this kind of guilt?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Malinda

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree: it seems to me in so many cases posted here (and at other groups) that

our personality-disordered parents really are incapable of a normal parent-child

relationship.

We seem to become any number of things to the bpd person EXCEPT their adult

child who has the same human rights as they do, and is as worthy of respect as

they are, simply as a fellow human being on this Earth.

We are instead treated as mere objects put here for their use, like a toy or a

doll for them to play with and then drop in the backyard when they become

distracted, or like a pet that gets dragged along by a rope where they want to

go. Or like a handy punching bag for them to take out their pent-up rage and

aggression on, either physically, emotionally, or both.

We are an extension of their own self, like an abulatory third arm they grew, or

a mindless co-joined twin that has no thoughts of its own, no feelings, no

opinions and no voice.

We are perceived as their servant, their caretaker, or their parent who is

supposed to nurture them and rescue them from their own bad decisions.

In very disturbing cases we can be perceived as their substitute spouse or

sexual plaything. At another Group I frequent, one woman member in great anguish

recently shared how her personality-disordered mother has been sexually abusing

her since she was a child, and even though she no longer permits any physical

contact her mother still makes sly, disgusting, seductive and wildly

inappropriate " romantic " comments to her adult daughter.

Some very disturbed personality-disordered parents use their child as trade

goods. One poster at the Group for the adult children of narcissistic pd

parents wrote how her mother actually gave her to a man for a couple of weeks in

exchange for drugs, when the child was only about 10. That poster is lucky to

be alive, and not suicidally depressed. She said she has been fighting

depression most of her life.

Sometimes we are perceived as their enemy who is out to use them or hurt them.

We become the villain and persecutor and they see themselves as the perpetual

victim.

In other words, its possible for the personality-disordered parent to perceive

their own child as anything and everything *except* simply their child, who is

an individual, who deserves respect, and is now an adult.

Very disturbing and very damaging to never get a sense of just being yourself:

the unique, individual human being that you are, by your own mother or father.

In my case, the way I've dealt with the guilt is to:

(a) stop believing that its my responsibility to make my nada happy. I now

believe its her job to make herself happy.

( refuse to feel guilty simply for protecting myself. My physical and

emotional health were being negatively impacted by contact with my nada, so I

chose self-preservation.

© remind myself that I've dedicated nearly 6 decades of my life to trying to

please my nada and have a normal relationship with her, and getting

sucker-punched for it every single time I try. So, number " c " is giving myself

permission to stop trying. I'm all tried out. Got no more tries left, she's

used them all up.

And that's OK. We can only do our best, and for my nada, my best was never good

enough, so... at least I'm consistent.

-Annie

>

> with my mother I am only now seeing it.

>

> I was sharing on another thread about the last time I mopped her kitchen floor

and SIL came in and tracked it up. Then a week later she was hinting I mop it

and was sighing, 'nobody cares' and then last week when I went in and did it she

was like 'why do you care' and hassled me literally the whole time I was doing

it.

>

> Truth is she doesn't see me as a human being. She sees me as a sounding board.

When she doesn't need me to dump her agony on, I am a bad person or just

irrelevant in her life.

>

> I only now understand I have to let go of the whole relationship. I realize I

can't have the 'good' because the bad is too painful. In order to dismiss the

bad I have to stay detached from the 'good'. Otherwise it just makes me crazy.

Sometimes I think having a hot/cold parent is worse than having one that is

completely bonkers %100 of the time. Because the damage goes on alot longer when

you are led to believe you are somehow 'causing' the bad side to come out, and

you waste precious moments (years) of your life trying to figure out how to

prevent that from happening. With me I am searching for a way to let go...she

really doesn't miss me much when I am not around so I am not one of the ones

that has to deal with crying begging and pleading, thank god.

>

[Guest guest]

Spot on, Annie!

I would go one step further, our PD parents are incapable of any normal

relationships. Whether with a child, friend, parent, or spouse, it all

gets impressed with the template of their PD and pyschosis.

Yes, indeed, we are manipulated, forced, or FOGed into many roles, none

of them the one for which we were born. Not only do we not get to

become an independant adult child, we cannot be a " Kid " child.

Normal for us never existed as a child. Or rather, our Norm was so far

outside the societal norm as to render us largely dysfunctional in the

world in which we live. We were, and remain, the object of fear,

obligation, guilt, rage, unfulfilled needs, and strangely, considering

all those others, indifference.

They can so easily for from using us or venting something on us, to

discounting us, or ignoring us. And maddeningly, they will " adopt "

strangers, and impose on them the role of loving , caring, generous

child. No matter how much we may have given them, or had them take from

us: we are inadequate, and a long string of strangers become the

idealized fantasy child we would never be.

Yet, as you say Annie, when the results of their own bad decisions come

to roost, and the strangers suddenly become strangers once more, they

shamelessly and without hesitation jump right back to leaning on us.

It is not the healthy symbiosis of shared caring, in which we rely on

them , and they rely on us, each in due season. Instead , it is a

parasitic relationship in which they take and take and pour nothing back

into us.

I have found few KO s, including myself, whose Nada was not sexually

inappropriate. Thru words, inuendo, displaying their sexual

relationships, intrusive hugs, or whatever, they all seem to practice

their own form of emotional incest.

And yes, strangely, we are at alternating times the source of all they

need, faux spouse, financial savior, twin sister, soul mate, confidante,

and antagonist. They are always , forever, the victim, the downtrodden,

the needy. They never get ahead, or above the water, and it is somehow

always our fault, and our responsibility.

You write that we never get a sense of ourselves. Too true, yet again I

would go one step further. We never get permission to be or sense

ourselves. Every attempt to do so is received as disloyalty, cruelty,

lack of human compassion.

Yet, ironically, our BPD parent, nada or fada, is never loyal to us,

devoted to us, has compassion only for themselves, never for us, and in

every way in which they deal with us, whether they are aware or not,

whether they actually intend it or not, are cruel to us on a deep ,

emotional , spiritual level. It may make us very tough in ways.

Survivors. But it leaves us hurt, broken, bleeding from the soul.

It may take us a lifetime to fully heal. I m 54, perhaps one of the

oldest KO s on this board. And I m still dealing with the effects.

Like Adult children of Alcoholics, ( ACOA) , Adult Children of Sex

Addicts ( ACOSA) , and other support groups for children of broken

parents, we heal as we help each other heal.

So, as ever, as always, May we ALL heal.

Blessings.

Doug

>

> I agree: it seems to me in so many cases posted here (and at other

groups) that our personality-disordered parents really are incapable of

a normal parent-child relationship.

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

>Annie,

( wow, almost 6 decades? You must be my age! LOL )

In re to A. It is never my responsibility to make another person happy.

Not my mother, not my wife, not my friends. That is a sappy misnomer

often spewed in love novels and weddings. It is my responsiblity to

treat people well, to give thought to their well being as I care for

them and love them, as my conscience dictates that I should, but being

happy is a choice they must make, or not.

B. Just like the instructions we get on an airplane, in the event of

emergency, tend to your own needs and safety first, before you try to

help children and other helpless people. If you don t do that, a BP mom

will use you as a tool to stave off her problems, and when she dies you

will be helpless.

C. In any difficult relationship, mom, lover, sibling, friend, we all

have the right to decide I have no more to give to this relationship.

And here is an eye opener: We have the right to say I have more to give,

but I am no longer willing to keep pouring more into it.!

You said your best was never good enough. Nonsense. Your best was good

and worthwhile. Don t discount it. But for a BP , nothing can ever be

enough. If you give your whole life, and even your death, to propping

them up, they will still be demanding more. They don t just ask, hat

in hand, they demand, and become offensive if they don t get what they

decide you owe them.

We truly to get to say, ENOUGH!

Doug

In my case, the way I've dealt with the guilt is to:

>

> (a) stop believing that its my responsibility to make my nada happy.

I now believe its her job to make herself happy.

>

> ( refuse to feel guilty simply for protecting myself. My physical

and emotional health were being negatively impacted by contact with my

nada, so I chose self-preservation.

>

> © remind myself that I've dedicated nearly 6 decades of my life to

trying to please my nada and have a normal relationship with her, and

getting sucker-punched for it every single time I try. So, number " c "

is giving myself permission to stop trying. I'm all tried out. Got no

more tries left, she's used them all up.

>

> And that's OK. We can only do our best, and for my nada, my best was

never good enough, so... at least I'm consistent.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Doug,

Great log! You summed up our lives very well. I can relate to all you

said; one point that really grabbed me was " we never get permission to be or

sense ourselves. Every attempt to do so is received as disloyalty, cruelty

, lack of human compassion " . So true. My fada and nada have absolutely

no clue who I am; To them, I am just an extension of them....I should think

as they do, feel as they do, agree with what they want me to agree with,

laugh when they think I should laugh, and absolutely never question them on

their behavior. Oh yeah, say " how high? " when they say jump!

Pertaining to your statement of no matter how much we may have given them

or had them take from us, we are inadequate; wow! how true. For the past 7

yrs. my husband & I have given up all to take care of their needs in their

old age. Bear in mind, I've been doing it all my life; had healed from it

mostly (scars were left of course), but now, my new husband is getting

involved. I warned him, but it took years for him to actually believe how

sick these 2 really were (because they act human in front of him and others!)

We literally were putting in 14 hr. days, 7 days a week in the last 5

months (they were living in our home) and they were just oblivious to it;

expected to be waited on hand and foot, clean up their messes, cook for them,

clean up after their incontinence. Their behavior was disgusting. I had had

it and my husband really wanted to hang in there believing family must

take care of family.. I told him over and over " honey, they aren't like

other people, they're not like your parents " . Finally, he saw it for himself

and said " that's it! If they want to move out again, just let them " . So we

did. We let them go.

Honestly, I didn't think I'd have so many hurt feelings about this. I

should be celebrating that they are gone and not in my care any longer. Gotta

say, I'm left with so much anger. They have abused me for the last time,

yet I still have this nagging desire to go over to their house and slap

each one in the face and leave!!

Loyalty? They don't know the meaning of the word.

Let the healing begin, again.

Laurie

In a message dated 9/27/2010 9:30:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

doug883@... writes:

Spot on, Annie!

I would go one step further, our PD parents are incapable of any normal

relationships. Whether with a child, friend, parent, or spouse, it all

gets impressed with the template of their PD and pyschosis.

Yes, indeed, we are manipulated, forced, or FOGed into many roles, none

of them the one for which we were born. Not only do we not get to

become an independant adult child, we cannot be a " Kid " child.

Normal for us never existed as a child. Or rather, our Norm was so far

outside the societal norm as to render us largely dysfunctional in the

world in which we live. We were, and remain, the object of fear,

obligation, guilt, rage, unfulfilled needs, and strangely, considering

all those others, indifference.

They can so easily for from using us or venting something on us, to

discounting us, or ignoring us. And maddeningly, they will " adopt "

strangers, and impose on them the role of loving , caring, generous

child. No matter how much we may have given them, or had them take from

us: we are inadequate, and a long string of strangers become the

idealized fantasy child we would never be.

Yet, as you say Annie, when the results of their own bad decisions come

to roost, and the strangers suddenly become strangers once more, they

shamelessly and without hesitation jump right back to leaning on us.

It is not the healthy symbiosis of shared caring, in which we rely on

them , and they rely on us, each in due season. Instead , it is a

parasitic relationship in which they take and take and pour nothing back

into us.

I have found few KO s, including myself, whose Nada was not sexually

inappropriate. Thru words, inuendo, displaying their sexual

relationships, intrusive hugs, or whatever, they all seem to practice

their own form of emotional incest.

And yes, strangely, we are at alternating times the source of all they

need, faux spouse, financial savior, twin sister, soul mate, confidante,

and antagonist. They are always , forever, the victim, the downtrodden,

the needy. They never get ahead, or above the water, and it is somehow

always our fault, and our responsibility.

You write that we never get a sense of ourselves. Too true, yet again I

would go one step further. We never get permission to be or sense

ourselves. Every attempt to do so is received as disloyalty, cruelty,

lack of human compassion.

Yet, ironically, our BPD parent, nada or fada, is never loyal to us,

devoted to us, has compassion only for themselves, never for us, and in

every way in which they deal with us, whether they are aware or not,

whether they actually intend it or not, are cruel to us on a deep ,

emotional , spiritual level. It may make us very tough in ways.

Survivors. But it leaves us hurt, broken, bleeding from the soul.

It may take us a lifetime to fully heal. I m 54, perhaps one of the

oldest KO s on this board. And I m still dealing with the effects.

Like Adult children of Alcoholics, ( ACOA) , Adult Children of Sex

Addicts ( ACOSA) , and other support groups for children of broken

parents, we heal as we help each other heal.

So, as ever, as always, May we ALL heal.

Blessings.

Doug

>

> I agree: it seems to me in so many cases posted here (and at other

groups) that our personality-disordered parents really are incapable of

a normal parent-child relationship.

>

[Guest guest]

That makes sense: that their disorder affects/distorts all the bpd's

relationships. Its just that I think the personality disordered have the most

profoundly negative impact on their children.

I am an adult, and whenever I encounter a toxic, negative, hostile person, or a

slippery con-artist kind of person, or a clingy, overly-needy kind of person

NOW, as an adult... well, its a whole different ballgame. As an adult, I at

least have the means and the option/choice to walk away; but as a minor child

of a bpd mother and an enabling, co-dependent, weak father, I had no such choice

available to me. Hence the rather profound skewing done during my formative

years to my developing sense of self, my perception of reality, my ability to

trust, my ability to reach my full potential... basically my life trajectory.

But I do agree, it makes total sense that if one has an entrenched and pervasive

personality disorder, it affects the person's entire reality and all their

relationships; they can't turn their disorder on and off, although my very

high-functioning bpd/npd nada has the ability (seemingly) to turn her

*behaviors* on and off at will. My momster could and can be quite charming and

adorable in public, when it suits her.

Which just adds another layer of anguish onto her children: " If my mother can be

kind and sweet to other people, why not me? There truly must be something badly

wrong with *me* " , thinks the trapped child.

-Annie

> >

> > I agree: it seems to me in so many cases posted here (and at other

> groups) that our personality-disordered parents really are incapable of

> a normal parent-child relationship.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes! Annie, yes. Why is the good stuff always for someone else, and

never for me? What is so terribly wrong about me? I think the answer,

years of therapy later, is apt to be nothing. It s alright, you didn t

cause it. You were worthy and lovable, and deserving of love. It was

your Mom s brokenness that deprived you of this, not some fault or

failing in yourself.

If I could just make myself believe that, I wouldn t need all the F ing

THERAPY! Sigh, but

Hi ho, hi ho, to counsling I must go.

You F ing witch, you threw my switch, Hi ho, hi ho.

Doug

>

> Which just adds another layer of anguish onto her children: " If my

mother can be kind and sweet to other people, why not me? There truly

must be something badly wrong with *me* " , thinks the trapped child.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Excuse me for trimming your original post and just saving the one part. I just

wanted to use the excerpt to ask a question. And I admit I haven't been

following all the posts so I may be way off track here.

I don't need to go into all the details about what my nada has done over the

years. It's the same old stories we all know so well. For the past 4 years or so

she's been extremely mean and angry while my Dad was dying and after he died.

It's been difficult trying to cope with her nasty attitude. Then earlier this

year we found out she made some false accusations against us to her doctor's

office. Things got ugly, we confronted her, drew the line in the sand so to

speak and she's backed way off. It's actually been pretty weird.

Now she's doing this thing of " loving " me. She keeps telling me how much she

needs me, that I make her so happy, what would she do without me, when I'm not

there she feels so lonely and sad. In a normal relationship a daughter would be

touched and appreciated, right? But I'm thinking, " Oh no! She's trying to suck

me in and gradually lay on the guilt. " The guilt trips aren't there yet but the

BS is getting deeper each time I go over.

She did that to me during my childhood: I was her confidant about all her

marriages and boyfriends but she also criticized me often and would get angry

and not talk for days. Is it any wonder I'm reluctant to believe all this Lovey

Dovey talk now? I mean, really, what are the odds she's made a change and

actually appreciates me? Pretty slim I suppose.

I just hate being so cynical.

>

> And yes, strangely, we are at alternating times the source of all they

> need, faux spouse, financial savior, twin sister, soul mate, confidante,

> and antagonist. They are always , forever, the victim, the downtrodden,

> the needy. They never get ahead, or above the water, and it is somehow

> always our fault, and our responsibility.

>

[Guest guest]

I've been down this road so often thru-out my life and what I've witnessed

is a distinct pattern; if you 'dare' to confront them, they withdraw, blame

(behind your back), then slowly try to pull you back in. They will be

nice for a while, then the old patterns slowly begin. Don't fall for it. Be

on guard if you decide to have any type of " relationship " with her. The

first sign of her making you feel guilty, RUN!

In a message dated 9/27/2010 8:37:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

ireneo55@... writes:

Excuse me for trimming your original post and just saving the one part. I

just wanted to use the excerpt to ask a question. And I admit I haven't been

following all the posts so I may be way off track here.

I don't need to go into all the details about what my nada has done over

the years. It's the same old stories we all know so well. For the past 4

years or so she's been extremely mean and angry while my Dad was dying and

after he died. It's been difficult trying to cope with her nasty attitude.

Then earlier this year we found out she made some false accusations against us

to her doctor's office. Things got ugly, we confronted her, drew the line

in the sand so to speak and she's backed way off. It's actually been pretty

weird.

Now she's doing this thing of " loving " me. She keeps telling me how much

she needs me, that I make her so happy, what would she do without me, when

I'm not there she feels so lonely and sad. In a normal relationship a

daughter would be touched and appreciated, right? But I'm thinking, " Oh no!

She's

trying to suck me in and gradually lay on the guilt. " The guilt trips

aren't there yet but the BS is getting deeper each time I go over.

She did that to me during my childhood: I was her confidant about all her

marriages and boyfriends but she also criticized me often and would get

angry and not talk for days. Is it any wonder I'm reluctant to believe all

this Lovey Dovey talk now? I mean, really, what are the odds she's made a

change and actually appreciates me? Pretty slim I suppose.

I just hate being so cynical.

>

> And yes, strangely, we are at alternating times the source of all they

> need, faux spouse, financial savior, twin sister, soul mate, confidante,

> and antagonist. They are always , forever, the victim, the downtrodden,

> the needy. They never get ahead, or above the water, and it is somehow

> always our fault, and our responsibility.

>

[Guest guest]

Irene - She's running the Hoover Maneuver. Don't fall for it. Get out of her

clutches, and stay out.

My mom has a distinct and predictable pattern of " sweet " and " concerned " phone

calls, escalating to " just called to chat - when can we visit " , then " I need you

to come visit and help me with XYZ " , followed by " why can't you... " , then the

carping, belittling, expecting me to drop everything to solve her

(self-inflicted) problems, then raging at me when I can't or won't do what she

wants. Then there's a period of blessed silence, followed by the pattern

beginning again. It's been going on for years.

I just try to prolong the periods of silence and compress the other calls to a

short time (rather than a long cycle of calls and short periods of silence).

Seriously, I could classify these calls and plot them on a calendar. A few

weeks prior to major holidays, they start. If I thought she could use her

computer, I'd think she was running some kind of spreadsheet to keep track.

When I get a call (like the one yesterday) with her lecturing me about how I

deserve to have nice things, why don't I go shopping for myself, etc., I know

the cycle is heating up again. Time to stop answering the phone and warn my

husband and son.

Thank God for caller ID.

>

> >

> > And yes, strangely, we are at alternating times the source of all they

> > need, faux spouse, financial savior, twin sister, soul mate, confidante,

> > and antagonist. They are always , forever, the victim, the downtrodden,

> > the needy. They never get ahead, or above the water, and it is somehow

> > always our fault, and our responsibility.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I've noticed that pattern with my nada; I've heard it referred to as the

" mean/sweet " cycle. Its also similar to the " cycle of domestic violence " : big

blow-up/rage/abuse, then remorse, then the " honeymoon period " , then the slow

build-up of irritation and fault-finding, then the " set-up " (the excuse for

another blow-up), then the big blow-up again, etc.

-Annie

>

> >

> > And yes, strangely, we are at alternating times the source of all they

> > need, faux spouse, financial savior, twin sister, soul mate, confidante,

> > and antagonist. They are always , forever, the victim, the downtrodden,

> > the needy. They never get ahead, or above the water, and it is somehow

> > always our fault, and our responsibility.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you " teddy " , , doug and Annie for the feedback. Her niceness seems to

be going on for quite a long time now. The blow up about her accusations

happened around Easter. There's more to that story but who cares at this point?

I do see her doing little back biting comments now, specifically about my

husband. She'll tell me how worried she is about me, not sure how I've managed

all these years living with his " problem " (depression). I go right back at her

and tell her how wonderful he is as a husband and a dad. I list his positive

qualities and she backs off.

This last visit she said the wrong thing - " Don't tell him I said this but.... "

Right then I'm ticked off. Reminds me of a child molester who tells you not to

tell this secret. And I hate child molesters. She said she thought I was the

intelligent one in the family and I carry the load. That is not true. I told her

each of us has our strengths and weaknesses and hubby and I work together very

well. She shut up. But she's worming her way in, trying to divide us and I'd

rather eat poison than listen to her poisonous comments.

Anyway, I worry about becoming too cynical and distrustful. The last thing I

want to do is act like her and end up criticizing the whole world.

> >

> > >

> > > And yes, strangely, we are at alternating times the source of all they

> > > need, faux spouse, financial savior, twin sister, soul mate, confidante,

> > > and antagonist. They are always , forever, the victim, the downtrodden,

> > > the needy. They never get ahead, or above the water, and it is somehow

> > > always our fault, and our responsibility.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

What is it with BPDs and how they feel qualified to judge everyone's

intelligence? My nada used to give everyone an intelligence grade - like she

was freaking qualified!

>

>

> Thank you " teddy " , , doug and Annie for the feedback. Her niceness

> seems to be going on for quite a long time now. The blow up about her

> accusations happened around Easter. There's more to that story but who cares

> at this point? I do see her doing little back biting comments now,

> specifically about my husband. She'll tell me how worried she is about me,

> not sure how I've managed all these years living with his " problem "

> (depression). I go right back at her and tell her how wonderful he is as a

> husband and a dad. I list his positive qualities and she backs off.

>

> This last visit she said the wrong thing - " Don't tell him I said this

> but.... " Right then I'm ticked off. Reminds me of a child molester who tells

> you not to tell this secret. And I hate child molesters. She said she

> thought I was the intelligent one in the family and I carry the load. That

> is not true. I told her each of us has our strengths and weaknesses and

> hubby and I work together very well. She shut up. But she's worming her way

> in, trying to divide us and I'd rather eat poison than listen to her

> poisonous comments.

>

> Anyway, I worry about becoming too cynical and distrustful. The last thing

> I want to do is act like her and end up criticizing the whole world.

>

>

>

> > >

> > > >

> > > > And yes, strangely, we are at alternating times the source of all

> they

> > > > need, faux spouse, financial savior, twin sister, soul mate,

> confidante,

> > > > and antagonist. They are always , forever, the victim, the

> downtrodden,

> > > > the needy. They never get ahead, or above the water, and it is

> somehow

> > > > always our fault, and our responsibility.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

" So true. My fada and nada have absolutely

no clue who I am; To them, I am just an extension of them....I should think

as they do, feel as they do, agree with what they want me to agree with,

laugh when they think I should laugh, and absolutely never question them on

their behavior. "

Ha!! Who here has had the experience of being regaled on and on when they were

small about how their grandparents did these same things to nada, how bad it

was, how she didn't deserve it, how it should never have happened, only...

to have nada turn right around and do THE EXACT SAME THING TO YOU???

Can't count the number of times this happened to me.

Morons.

--.

[Guest guest]

great advice guys, thank you.

>

>

>

>

> >

>

> >

> >Annie,

>

> ( wow, almost 6 decades? You must be my age! LOL )

>

> In re to A. It is never my responsibility to make another person happy.

> Not my mother, not my wife, not my friends. That is a sappy misnomer

> often spewed in love novels and weddings. It is my responsiblity to

> treat people well, to give thought to their well being as I care for

> them and love them, as my conscience dictates that I should, but being

> happy is a choice they must make, or not.

>

> B. Just like the instructions we get on an airplane, in the event of

> emergency, tend to your own needs and safety first, before you try to

> help children and other helpless people. If you don t do that, a BP mom

> will use you as a tool to stave off her problems, and when she dies you

> will be helpless.

>

> C. In any difficult relationship, mom, lover, sibling, friend, we all

> have the right to decide I have no more to give to this relationship.

> And here is an eye opener: We have the right to say I have more to give,

> but I am no longer willing to keep pouring more into it.!

>

> You said your best was never good enough. Nonsense. Your best was good

> and worthwhile. Don t discount it. But for a BP , nothing can ever be

> enough. If you give your whole life, and even your death, to propping

> them up, they will still be demanding more. They don t just ask, hat

> in hand, they demand, and become offensive if they don t get what they

> decide you owe them.

>

> We truly to get to say, ENOUGH!

>

> Doug

>

>

> In my case, the way I've dealt with the guilt is to:

> >

> > (a) stop believing that its my responsibility to make my nada happy.

> I now believe its her job to make herself happy.

> >

> > ( refuse to feel guilty simply for protecting myself. My physical

> and emotional health were being negatively impacted by contact with my

> nada, so I chose self-preservation.

> >

> > © remind myself that I've dedicated nearly 6 decades of my life to

> trying to please my nada and have a normal relationship with her, and

> getting sucker-punched for it every single time I try. So, number " c "

> is giving myself permission to stop trying. I'm all tried out. Got no

> more tries left, she's used them all up.

> >

> > And that's OK. We can only do our best, and for my nada, my best was

> never good enough, so... at least I'm consistent.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Maybe this is the thread I should have been reading all along.

--.