Guest guest Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on. I think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What, is she 2? Ha ha So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I can't hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having to pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people breathing around me. So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my bed, wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake up and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for 2-3 min of aloneness. So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out in the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration time during the day like he does. Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to understand. Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to listen to breathing like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 It's so funny you said this I have been thinking about this kind of thing...not necessarily breathing but my alone time! I am an extrovert too...I love being around people but just as much as I love the social part I NEED time in my own head and I can't really have that unless I am quiet and alone. Even driving home...that's not really alone time for me. I don't really get what I need from that. If I don't have my alone time I get bitchy....I like sometimes to go to bed before my husband to get alone time..or after too. When I lived with my nada I went to the very far corned of my closet and would shut the door...Gawd,,,that was such a peaceful wonderful place for me..no one ever knew I was there. Nada thought I was outside or something...I would leave my bed room door open...and sit in silence for as long as I need to. there I thought and day dreamed..I'm not sure what I did.......I still need that. I like the way you said you want to get away from people's vibes..I think that's a good way to describe it. I'd be interested to see what others say... Stefanie On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Girlscout Cowboy < girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote: > > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on. > I > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What, > is she 2? Ha ha > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I > can't > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having to > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people > breathing around me. > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my bed, > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake up > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out in > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration > time during the day like he does. > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to understand. > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to listen > to breathing like that? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 I don't know about the breathing, but I can tell you that mothers of small children never get to go to the bathroom alone for very long. It's like there's a signal that goes off - she's in there! Do something! And the next thing you know, it's tap, tap, tap on the door. I'm currently living in a very small house with a very large son and a rather grumpy husband. They create mess and laundry everywhere, and I feel like I spend my life with a sponge in my hand, wiping up messes. I know this is just a temporary stage (the kid has to grow up and move out SOMETIME) - although I don't think the husband will ever quit strewing his stuff all over the place. So yes, when the two of them are gone for a weekend campout, I revel in the solitude. I put stuff down, and it's still there an hour later. I fix a meal and clean up the kitchen, and it stays clean. I do laundry, and it takes DAYS for the hamper to fill up again. Sure, I love 'em, but boy, it's nice to be by myself sometimes. I think we all need rooms of our own. > > > > > > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another > > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made > > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed > > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on. > > I > > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What, > > is she 2? Ha ha > > > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I > > can't > > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make > > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having to > > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people > > breathing around me. > > > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my bed, > > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good > > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He > > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake up > > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for > > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I > > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their > > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out in > > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration > > time during the day like he does. > > > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I > > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. > > > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to understand. > > > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to listen > > to breathing like that? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 I seemed to pick up two things: 1) A sensitivity to breathing, and 2) A need for space. The sensitivity to breathing doesn't sound strange at all. In fact, I think that's in a woman's story in Understanding the Borderline Mother. I know I've read that exact same thing before somewhere. I'll be that's incredibly common. As for the need for space, I'm an off-the-charts extrovert. I am friends with every grocery store clerk and barista within a 2 mile radius of my house. But I have a limited amount of " people fuel. " When I'm done with people, I'M DONE! I also require lots and lots of alone time. It's the only way I can find peace and clarity. Please forgive me for being so forward, but I would worry much more about your boyfriend's suspicion of your need for space. Again, I don't like to give unsolicited advice, but you may want to spend a moment and get more information and/or evaluate what's behind that. If he doesn't prefer it because he doesn't understand, that's one thing. If he feels threatened by it or won't allow you to have it, that maybe a little more difficult to reconcile. Just a thought. Interesting . . . KOs become so fine-tuned in reading people, they can tell moods just by breathing. That is pretty incredible if you think about it. We should hire ourselves out as " people readers. " Blessings, Karla > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on. I > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What, > is she 2? Ha ha > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I can't > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having to > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people > breathing around me. > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my bed, > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake up > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out in > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration > time during the day like he does. > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to understand. > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to listen > to breathing like that? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Hi Girlscout, have you ever identified with the empath description? Judith Orloff has some books and articles on the web about how someone who feels others vibes strongly needs space and alone time built into a relationship. I've found her views really helpful and validating. I too am very extroverted with people I know casually, but much more cautious about letting people be close because they can overwhelm me. I think these nadas with their craziness may amplify natural empathy that exists in KO's. I mean it's self-defense! If you can tell by a her breathing, minute expressions, tone, silences, " energy " whether she is safe to be around or whether to brace for trouble it's valuable as a kid. We couldn't afford to be oblivious. Your boyfriend needs to recognize your needs and honor them. The balance of time spent together and space are so important to work out for the long-term. > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on. I > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What, > is she 2? Ha ha > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I can't > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having to > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people > breathing around me. > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my bed, > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake up > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out in > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration > time during the day like he does. > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to understand. > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to listen > to breathing like that? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 That makes sense to me, that KOs become really good people-readers. With Sister and me, being able to " read " nada was a survival mechanism. Sometimes nada would undergo a build-up of irritation that culminated in a big eruption of rage, and if we could read the signs we could make ourselves scarce. But sometimes nada would just trigger instantly into a rage with no warning; I'd hear her approaching me rapidly, I'd turn to face her and get slapped. It turned us into little barometers, weather-vanes, always keeping tabs on how nada was feeling. Was there a rage tornado approaching? Or would we suddenly just get fried by an unpredictable lightning bolt of anger? Needless to say, we grew up rather nervous, jittery kids. And I am drama-phobic now. I don't even like to watch reality TV shows or sitcoms or those confrontational talk shows where people are yelling at each other; I don't need to relive that kind of stress. -Annie > > > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another > > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made > > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed > > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on. I > > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What, > > is she 2? Ha ha > > > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I can't > > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make > > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having to > > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people > > breathing around me. > > > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my bed, > > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good > > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He > > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake up > > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for > > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I > > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their > > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out in > > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration > > time during the day like he does. > > > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I > > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. > > > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to understand. > > > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to listen > > to breathing like that? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 Me too Annie - Im always very aware of how people in front of me are feeling, espeically nada - funnily enough, one of the biggest things mum beat into us was to never intentionally upset anyone else. If you got a crap gift at Chritmas and you didnt show the appropriate " oh I LOVE it! " we would get screamed at later for making the gift-giver feel bad. Mum would be embarressed that we had upset anyone. We werent allowed to cry in public as small children " because people dont want to see that " You make people uncomfortable " etc. Im hyper-sensitive to giving the " appropriate " responses to things and so on now, to the point where I feel rather superficial - in person I tell people what they want to hear and what wont upset them. > > > > > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > > > > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another > > > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made > > > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed > > > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on. I > > > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What, > > > is she 2? Ha ha > > > > > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I can't > > > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make > > > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having to > > > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people > > > breathing around me. > > > > > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my bed, > > > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good > > > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He > > > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > > > > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake up > > > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for > > > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > > > > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I > > > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their > > > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > > > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out in > > > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration > > > time during the day like he does. > > > > > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I > > > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. > > > > > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to understand. > > > > > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to listen > > > to breathing like that? > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 Yeah wow - so weird that their are other utter extroverts out there who also need there downtime away from people. I actually recently took a personality test, and it ranked me as only somewhat extraverted. i know this isn't true, because I am UTTERLY extraverted, like Karla, I make a new friend every time I walk out the door - grocery story lines, coffee shops, you name it. The best was always the dog park, I had SO many friends there. Anyway, the test sad I am less extroverted than I actually am because I need downtime, i don't need to be at a party every night, or have plans with friends, or be in constant contact with other people. I need me time, and I actually book it into my day carefully, like it is a top priority. Yeah, Karla, I'm also concerned that boyfriend doesn't understand my need for alone time. But we will talk about it and work on it, and if he doens't come around, we will have a therapy session togther. I think that might be a positive move anyway. Yeah, he really likes to be together. And I have to admit, I'm going through a very soul searching time right now, trying to relearn a lot of stuff and investigating etc... he is helping me, but some of it I just have to do by myself. So I think my withdrawal into my inner world and books had him feeling a bit abandoned. But, I have a lot of faith in him, he is actually pretty amazing, so I'm sure he will understand if we discuss it some more. I've been planning special time to spend with him, like 2 hours after work, and then after that I retreat for my alone time. So I'm hoping that will help. He gets quality instead of quanitity. On another note, I feel you guys on hating to be around drama, yelling, reality TV etc. That shit gets turned off immediately. I've had enough of it in my life to date. And a note on the mom situations - ha ha ha I laughed that the kids have a meter that lets them know when you are in the bathroom. Ha ha ha. Maybe there is another place you could hide for a second. Love the story about the closet - as a kid I LOVED any tiny space I could crawl into. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:53 AM, crazy150345 wrote: > > > Me too Annie - Im always very aware of how people in front of me are > feeling, espeically nada - funnily enough, one of the biggest things mum > beat into us was to never intentionally upset anyone else. If you got a crap > gift at Chritmas and you didnt show the appropriate " oh I LOVE it! " we would > get screamed at later for making the gift-giver feel bad. Mum would be > embarressed that we had upset anyone. We werent allowed to cry in public as > small children " because people dont want to see that " You make people > uncomfortable " etc. Im hyper-sensitive to giving the " appropriate " responses > to things and so on now, to the point where I feel rather superficial - in > person I tell people what they want to hear and what wont upset them. > > > > > > > > > > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > > > > > > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of > another > > > > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she > made > > > > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she > needed > > > > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on > and on. I > > > > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. > What, > > > > is she 2? Ha ha > > > > > > > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where > I can't > > > > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't > make > > > > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of > having to > > > > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY > people > > > > breathing around me. > > > > > > > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to > my bed, > > > > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a > good > > > > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. > He > > > > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > > > > > > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first > wake up > > > > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the > bathroom for > > > > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > > > > > > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though > when I > > > > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel > their > > > > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > > > > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or > out in > > > > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone > time/concentration > > > > time during the day like he does. > > > > > > > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, > sometimes I > > > > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a > minute. > > > > > > > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to > understand. > > > > > > > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to > listen > > > > to breathing like that? > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 Yes, truly. For our mentally ill mothers, it seems to me that we didn't (still don't) exist as actual living individual human beings with our own thoughts, feelings, needs or wishes. We were/are things, or robots, or dolls that belong to nada. We were simply there to play a role, to perform on cue, do it perfectly, and make nada look like the perfect mother. We exist to serve her needs. That, I think, is one of the key issues: is the prospective mother capable of relating to her child or children as an individual, unique, separate human being, or can she only perceive her child as: an extension of herself, only. an unfeeling object, like a doll a pet dog, or a servant, an investment that is supposed to pay off big time, her own parent, another adult: such as her spouse, her lover, her bestest best friend, or worse, someone she hates, resents or feels jealous/competitive with. etc., meaning as ANYTHING except this specific helpless child who only needs to be loved and guided into adulthood by a good-enough parent who respects the child's person-hood. The popular misconception is that motherhood just " comes naturally " to all women, it would seem, and so there is NO thought or plan in place to account for the woman who has personality disorder and lacks the basic cognitive skills, emotional stability, or perhaps even the desire to be a mother, yet finds that she now has a child to raise. When the personality-disordered, mentally ill parent is also very high-functioning and the abuse is covert, the child is basically doomed to a living hell of one depth or another until or unless s/he can escape on her own. Would it be so very difficult or so terribly intrusive into personal freedom for prospective parents to undergo a psychological evaluation as part of the prenatal exam schedule, and for there to be required parenting classes as well? And close, close supervision and monitoring for those who fall into the " at risk " category? We have to pass a test to get a license to drive a car, for pete's sake. -Annie > > Me too Annie - Im always very aware of how people in front of me are feeling, espeically nada - funnily enough, one of the biggest things mum beat into us was to never intentionally upset anyone else. If you got a crap gift at Chritmas and you didnt show the appropriate " oh I LOVE it! " we would get screamed at later for making the gift-giver feel bad. Mum would be embarressed that we had upset anyone. We werent allowed to cry in public as small children " because people dont want to see that " You make people uncomfortable " etc. Im hyper-sensitive to giving the " appropriate " responses to things and so on now, to the point where I feel rather superficial - in person I tell people what they want to hear and what wont upset them. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 I LOVE the idea of doing a mental health screening as part of pre natal - or even pre conception care. WOw. Cool On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:39 AM, anuria67854 wrote: > > > Yes, truly. For our mentally ill mothers, it seems to me that we didn't > (still don't) exist as actual living individual human beings with our own > thoughts, feelings, needs or wishes. We were/are things, or robots, or dolls > that belong to nada. We were simply there to play a role, to perform on cue, > do it perfectly, and make nada look like the perfect mother. We exist to > serve her needs. > > That, I think, is one of the key issues: is the prospective mother capable > of relating to her child or children as an individual, unique, separate > human being, or can she only perceive her child as: > > an extension of herself, only. > > an unfeeling object, like a doll > > a pet dog, or a servant, > > an investment that is supposed to pay off big time, > > her own parent, > > another adult: > such as her spouse, her lover, her bestest best friend, or worse, someone > she hates, resents or feels jealous/competitive with. > > etc., > > meaning as ANYTHING except this specific helpless child who only needs to > be loved and guided into adulthood by a good-enough parent who respects the > child's person-hood. > > The popular misconception is that motherhood just " comes naturally " to all > women, it would seem, and so there is NO thought or plan in place to account > for the woman who has personality disorder and lacks the basic cognitive > skills, emotional stability, or perhaps even the desire to be a mother, yet > finds that she now has a child to raise. > > When the personality-disordered, mentally ill parent is also very > high-functioning and the abuse is covert, the child is basically doomed to a > living hell of one depth or another until or unless s/he can escape on her > own. > > Would it be so very difficult or so terribly intrusive into personal > freedom for prospective parents to undergo a psychological evaluation as > part of the prenatal exam schedule, and for there to be required parenting > classes as well? And close, close supervision and monitoring for those who > fall into the " at risk " category? > > We have to pass a test to get a license to drive a car, for pete's sake. > > -Annie > > > > > > > Me too Annie - Im always very aware of how people in front of me are > feeling, espeically nada - funnily enough, one of the biggest things mum > beat into us was to never intentionally upset anyone else. If you got a crap > gift at Chritmas and you didnt show the appropriate " oh I LOVE it! " we would > get screamed at later for making the gift-giver feel bad. Mum would be > embarressed that we had upset anyone. We werent allowed to cry in public as > small children " because people dont want to see that " You make people > uncomfortable " etc. Im hyper-sensitive to giving the " appropriate " responses > to things and so on now, to the point where I feel rather superficial - in > person I tell people what they want to hear and what wont upset them. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 Wow, Annie. I'm so glad to hear I'm not the only one. I am so confused by reality tv. If I want to see sick, dysfunctional drama, I can go visit family. I can't even be in the same room when they are on--even if they aren't yelling, the sheer unpredictability of those shows just makes me panicky inside. Dang. If folks only knew what that REALLY looked like up close and personal. It's not entertainment, to be sure. Blessings, Karla > > > > > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > > > > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another > > > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made > > > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed > > > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on. I > > > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What, > > > is she 2? Ha ha > > > > > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I can't > > > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make > > > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having to > > > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people > > > breathing around me. > > > > > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my bed, > > > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good > > > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He > > > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > > > > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake up > > > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for > > > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > > > > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I > > > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their > > > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > > > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out in > > > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration > > > time during the day like he does. > > > > > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I > > > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. > > > > > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to understand. > > > > > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to listen > > > to breathing like that? > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 Annie - You're right, you're right, you're right. There should be some way to intervene when parents are so mentally ill that they warp their children, and there should be some way to look for the " invisible " mental illnesses that don't leave bruises (but do leave emotional scars). No question. I did want to respond to one point, though - you talked about " The popular misconception is that motherhood just " comes naturally " to all women, it would seem, and so there is NO thought or plan in place to account for the woman who has personality disorder and lacks the basic cognitive skills, emotional stability, or perhaps even the desire to be a mother, yet finds that she now has a child to raise. " Here's the thing - unless we've grown up with responsibility for babies in extended families, or large families (neither of which is the norm these days), most of us have NO CLUE what we're getting into when we have a first child. We may have seen people with babies, or seen movies, or read books - but I don't think there's any way to explain the way a new mother's life changes so totally. You really, quite literally, have to stop being yourself and turn into someone else. For many of us, it's immediate and there's no question about doing what's best for our babies. For others, it takes some time and leaves us confused and wondering what the heck happened to our old lives. Most of us manage to figure things out and put our childrens' welfare first (which is why " most " kids wind up OK) - but I think there's a very long continuum between Perfect Mom and Absolute Horror, and a lot of us fall closer to the middle than we'd like to admit. So I don't think that all parts of modern motherhood come " naturally " - like everything else, it's a combination of nature and nurture (and popular media). A lot of us struggle with it over the years (while keeping our kids fed, clothed, educated and fairly clean). That doesn't mean there's any excuse for the kind of abuse our Nadas dished out. But it may explain why it's so hard to just do a universal psychological examination. There's a LOT going on during a pregnancy and the first months of a baby's life (which is when new mothers get the most scrutiny). Women who are having a hard time giving up their old life and self-concept can be perfectly adequate mothers, given some time and encouragement (and the occasional night off duty). I'm not sure a psychologist could make that determination so early in the process, is all I'm saying. Look, I think there should be birth control in the water supply system, so you'd really have to WANT a baby to have one, and you'd have to be able to afford bottled water and have a plan to drink it for several months beforehand. But hey, that's just me... (what, too invasive?) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 Wow, I LIKE your idea of birth control meds in the drinking water so that people would have to make a conscious and determined effort to become pregnant!! (instead of the other way around) That is so brilliantly simple and innovative!! All I meant was, wouldn't it be great if prospective parents could have a psychological evaluation specifically to detect the severely disturbed individuals: the antisocial pds (and/or psychopaths), narcissistic pds, borderline pds, and other severe mental illnesses. If you read the diagnostic criteria for the Cluster B pds, its really the exact OPPOSITE of what makes for a " good enough " parent. Its frightening. Screening for severe mental illness in a prospective parent is all I'm after. This is the way I believe my nada's warped bpd/npd brain was thinking when she was a young mother: " I need to be a perfect mother, but my baby cries and won't stop even when I pick her up and try to comfort her. (I had colic) So this must mean that my baby thinks I am a bad mother. This makes me feel embarrassed, ashamed, and angry; I am supposed to be a perfect mother. If my baby hates me, then I hate her back. On top of that, my baby had to be hospitalized twice before she was two for major operations; I'm sure that other people must be thinking that I am a bad mother. I didn't sign up for this. This is expensive, and it takes all my time to care for a sick baby who doesn't even love me. What thanks do I get? None. Its all the baby's fault. I got a defective baby. I highly resent getting a hateful, rejecting, defective, sick baby; but I am a good person so I'll take care of her anyway. On top of it all, my child doesn't appreciate me at all; all she does is take, take, take, and all I do is give, give, give. But she won't let me near her, she acts like she hates me (I was afraid of her.) This embarrasses me and makes me feel bad about myself. She is a bad, hateful, thankless child, I have the right and the duty to punish her for this. Its OK to scream at my child and slap her around and spank her; being strict with her is being a good mother....etc. " See the difference? That's way outside the normal range of thinking; its personality-disordered thinking. That's the kind of warped thinking I wish could be screened for and then carefully supervised when of if such an individual like my nada should decide to have a child. -Annie > > Annie - > > You're right, you're right, you're right. There should be some way to intervene when parents are so mentally ill that they warp their children, and there should be some way to look for the " invisible " mental illnesses that don't leave bruises (but do leave emotional scars). No question. > > I did want to respond to one point, though - you talked about " The popular misconception is that motherhood just " comes naturally " to all women, it would seem, and so there is NO thought or plan in place to account for the woman who has personality disorder and lacks the basic cognitive skills, emotional stability, or perhaps even the desire to be a mother, yet finds that she now has a child to raise. " > > Here's the thing - unless we've grown up with responsibility for babies in extended families, or large families (neither of which is the norm these days), most of us have NO CLUE what we're getting into when we have a first child. We may have seen people with babies, or seen movies, or read books - but I don't think there's any way to explain the way a new mother's life changes so totally. You really, quite literally, have to stop being yourself and turn into someone else. For many of us, it's immediate and there's no question about doing what's best for our babies. For others, it takes some time and leaves us confused and wondering what the heck happened to our old lives. Most of us manage to figure things out and put our childrens' welfare first (which is why " most " kids wind up OK) - but I think there's a very long continuum between Perfect Mom and Absolute Horror, and a lot of us fall closer to the middle than we'd like to admit. So I don't think that all parts of modern motherhood come " naturally " - like everything else, it's a combination of nature and nurture (and popular media). A lot of us struggle with it over the years (while keeping our kids fed, clothed, educated and fairly clean). > > That doesn't mean there's any excuse for the kind of abuse our Nadas dished out. But it may explain why it's so hard to just do a universal psychological examination. There's a LOT going on during a pregnancy and the first months of a baby's life (which is when new mothers get the most scrutiny). Women who are having a hard time giving up their old life and self-concept can be perfectly adequate mothers, given some time and encouragement (and the occasional night off duty). I'm not sure a psychologist could make that determination so early in the process, is all I'm saying. > > Look, I think there should be birth control in the water supply system, so you'd really have to WANT a baby to have one, and you'd have to be able to afford bottled water and have a plan to drink it for several months beforehand. But hey, that's just me... (what, too invasive?) > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 Not that I would wish this on innocent animals, but it would be a great test of a future parent to see how well they care for a pet. I've seen my nada's dysfunction and that of other FOO show very clearly in how they relate to their animals. One of the most telling signs I see is that they project negative human emotions onto the pet - the cat is rejecting me, the cat is angry at me, the cat wants to control me, the cat thinks it is superior to me (ok well some do!). It's like they get into an ego battle with small furry creature or see it as there to meet their needs not a living being they are responsible to nurture and protect. Same thing happens once they've got a baby. > > > > Annie - > > > > You're right, you're right, you're right. There should be some way to intervene when parents are so mentally ill that they warp their children, and there should be some way to look for the " invisible " mental illnesses that don't leave bruises (but do leave emotional scars). No question. > > > > I did want to respond to one point, though - you talked about " The popular misconception is that motherhood just " comes naturally " to all women, it would seem, and so there is NO thought or plan in place to account for the woman who has personality disorder and lacks the basic cognitive skills, emotional stability, or perhaps even the desire to be a mother, yet finds that she now has a child to raise. " > > > > Here's the thing - unless we've grown up with responsibility for babies in extended families, or large families (neither of which is the norm these days), most of us have NO CLUE what we're getting into when we have a first child. We may have seen people with babies, or seen movies, or read books - but I don't think there's any way to explain the way a new mother's life changes so totally. You really, quite literally, have to stop being yourself and turn into someone else. For many of us, it's immediate and there's no question about doing what's best for our babies. For others, it takes some time and leaves us confused and wondering what the heck happened to our old lives. Most of us manage to figure things out and put our childrens' welfare first (which is why " most " kids wind up OK) - but I think there's a very long continuum between Perfect Mom and Absolute Horror, and a lot of us fall closer to the middle than we'd like to admit. So I don't think that all parts of modern motherhood come " naturally " - like everything else, it's a combination of nature and nurture (and popular media). A lot of us struggle with it over the years (while keeping our kids fed, clothed, educated and fairly clean). > > > > That doesn't mean there's any excuse for the kind of abuse our Nadas dished out. But it may explain why it's so hard to just do a universal psychological examination. There's a LOT going on during a pregnancy and the first months of a baby's life (which is when new mothers get the most scrutiny). Women who are having a hard time giving up their old life and self-concept can be perfectly adequate mothers, given some time and encouragement (and the occasional night off duty). I'm not sure a psychologist could make that determination so early in the process, is all I'm saying. > > > > Look, I think there should be birth control in the water supply system, so you'd really have to WANT a baby to have one, and you'd have to be able to afford bottled water and have a plan to drink it for several months beforehand. But hey, that's just me... (what, too invasive?) > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 Annie - Yes, I understand. Really, I do. And I think my crazy mom would have been better off it she'd waited several years - or maybe a lifetime - before having children. All I was saying was - when we are pregnant and then have those first babies, a LOT of us look kind of crazy. For most of us, it passes. But it might be hard to separate the temporarily sleep-deprived, hormone-ridden, no-shower-for-three-days crazy mom from the real, permanent kind. (I had one severe meltdown because somebody brought home white flour English muffins instead of whole wheat. That was when I had to accept that pregnancy hormones were real, and I wasn't going to be exempt. Very discouraging.) That, and the way BPD can be sort of latent, then rear its head under stress - I think it will continue to be important that teachers and pediatricians look out for the signs of emotional abuse, because pre-natal screening might not pick up the subtler forms of the BPD vibe, especially when it's in the midst of so much " normal " pregnancy craziness. By the way - did I mention that the birth control in the water should be for the males? Fair's fair, after all. > > > > Annie - > > > > You're right, you're right, you're right. There should be some way to intervene when parents are so mentally ill that they warp their children, and there should be some way to look for the " invisible " mental illnesses that don't leave bruises (but do leave emotional scars). No question. > > > > I did want to respond to one point, though - you talked about " The popular misconception is that motherhood just " comes naturally " to all women, it would seem, and so there is NO thought or plan in place to account for the woman who has personality disorder and lacks the basic cognitive skills, emotional stability, or perhaps even the desire to be a mother, yet finds that she now has a child to raise. " > > > > Here's the thing - unless we've grown up with responsibility for babies in extended families, or large families (neither of which is the norm these days), most of us have NO CLUE what we're getting into when we have a first child. We may have seen people with babies, or seen movies, or read books - but I don't think there's any way to explain the way a new mother's life changes so totally. You really, quite literally, have to stop being yourself and turn into someone else. For many of us, it's immediate and there's no question about doing what's best for our babies. For others, it takes some time and leaves us confused and wondering what the heck happened to our old lives. Most of us manage to figure things out and put our childrens' welfare first (which is why " most " kids wind up OK) - but I think there's a very long continuum between Perfect Mom and Absolute Horror, and a lot of us fall closer to the middle than we'd like to admit. So I don't think that all parts of modern motherhood come " naturally " - like everything else, it's a combination of nature and nurture (and popular media). A lot of us struggle with it over the years (while keeping our kids fed, clothed, educated and fairly clean). > > > > That doesn't mean there's any excuse for the kind of abuse our Nadas dished out. But it may explain why it's so hard to just do a universal psychological examination. There's a LOT going on during a pregnancy and the first months of a baby's life (which is when new mothers get the most scrutiny). Women who are having a hard time giving up their old life and self-concept can be perfectly adequate mothers, given some time and encouragement (and the occasional night off duty). I'm not sure a psychologist could make that determination so early in the process, is all I'm saying. > > > > Look, I think there should be birth control in the water supply system, so you'd really have to WANT a baby to have one, and you'd have to be able to afford bottled water and have a plan to drink it for several months beforehand. But hey, that's just me... (what, too invasive?) > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 That's a very interesting idea,Annie...Something I noticed when reading child abuse cases that made it to the courts was that what distinguishes abusive/mentally ill parents from other parents is that they invariably perceive some kind of *malice* in their childrens' behavior. A non-abusive parent might be feeling overwhelmed by their baby's helplessness and dependence and may be having some trouble coping but still see their baby as just that,a *helpless* baby--but abusive parents across the board don't see their child's helplessness and abject dependence on them.Where a non abusive parent can still retain a realistic awareness of their child's innocence and natural neediness,an abusive parent sees greediness rather than neediness; hatefulness or some form of deliberate malice rather than innocence.Abusive parents seem unable to apprehend that their baby or small child's behavior isn't purposefully calculated to cause the parent pain. An insecure but non abusive parent might question the quality of the bond they have with their baby while still accepting responsibility for their own feelings and responsibility for tending to that bond in their capacity as the parent/adult.An abusive parent,on the other hand,places that responsibility onto the baby/child and will blame the baby exclusively for any lack of bonding and will believe that the baby/small child's failure to bond/ " love " the parent is intentional and malicious.Which in turn " justifies " punishment.Abusive parents feel victimized by the *child* not by circumstance,such as feeling overwhelmed by the responsibility or not quite up to parenting.They cannot separate their circumstances from their child--to them the circumstances are entirely the child's fault and/or a flaw the child has. I think the potential for a parent to have this kind of abuse creating mind set could be picked up in many cases if a screening tool was developed to test for it even before that person became a parent,a sort of screen for " perceived maliciousness in infantile behavior " .Since as far as I could see from what I've read,a parent who perceives malice in their baby/child with no insight or awareness of " mitigating factors " (such as the baby/child's age) is the one most likely to be abusive,it seems to me that any screening tool would need to test primarily for that.For starters,anyway. I don't know how that would be done but that's my 2 cents And birth control in the water supply wouldn't hurt,either! > > Wow, I LIKE your idea of birth control meds in the drinking water so that people would have to make a conscious and determined effort to become pregnant!! (instead of the other way around) That is so brilliantly simple and innovative!! > > All I meant was, wouldn't it be great if prospective parents could have a psychological evaluation specifically to detect the severely disturbed individuals: the antisocial pds (and/or psychopaths), narcissistic pds, borderline pds, and other severe mental illnesses. > If you read the diagnostic criteria for the Cluster B pds, its really the exact OPPOSITE of what makes for a " good enough " parent. Its frightening. > > Screening for severe mental illness in a prospective parent is all I'm after. > > This is the way I believe my nada's warped bpd/npd brain was thinking when she was a young mother: > > " I need to be a perfect mother, but my baby cries and won't stop even when I pick her up and try to comfort her. (I had colic) So this must mean that my baby thinks I am a bad mother. This makes me feel embarrassed, ashamed, and angry; I am supposed to be a perfect mother. If my baby hates me, then I hate her back. On top of that, my baby had to be hospitalized twice before she was two for major operations; I'm sure that other people must be thinking that I am a bad mother. I didn't sign up for this. This is expensive, and it takes all my time to care for a sick baby who doesn't even love me. What thanks do I get? None. Its all the baby's fault. I got a defective baby. I highly resent getting a hateful, rejecting, defective, sick baby; but I am a good person so I'll take care of her anyway. On top of it all, my child doesn't appreciate me at all; all she does is take, take, take, and all I do is give, give, give. But she won't let me near her, she acts like she hates me (I was afraid of her.) This embarrasses me and makes me feel bad about myself. She is a bad, hateful, thankless child, I have the right and the duty to punish her for this. Its OK to scream at my child and slap her around and spank her; being strict with her is being a good mother....etc. " > > See the difference? > > That's way outside the normal range of thinking; its personality-disordered thinking. That's the kind of warped thinking I wish could be screened for and then carefully supervised when of if such an individual like my nada should decide to have a child. > > -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 I also had colic as a baby and my nada felt the same way! When I was an older child I felt GUILTY for being a bad baby. My nada told me I didn't love her as a baby, that I always loved my dad more, that I didn't " turn out " right and that's why she had to have another baby. I do wish there was an evaluation before people had kids to prevent abuse, but I think my nada could have faked it and appeared normal then. Even when I was only 8 and was taken to a psychologist I was so worried that my nada thought something was wrong with me - and I was pretty sure something was wrong with me myself - and that if she found out she wouldn't want me anymore, so I lied to the doctor so they wouldn't think I was " broken " . Despite having OCD and probably some other problems, he told my parents nothing was wrong with me, the only thing unusual was that I had a high IQ! If an 8 year old can fool a doctor, my nada could. Casey > > > > Annie - > > > > You're right, you're right, you're right. There should be some way to intervene when parents are so mentally ill that they warp their children, and there should be some way to look for the " invisible " mental illnesses that don't leave bruises (but do leave emotional scars). No question. > > > > I did want to respond to one point, though - you talked about " The popular misconception is that motherhood just " comes naturally " to all women, it would seem, and so there is NO thought or plan in place to account for the woman who has personality disorder and lacks the basic cognitive skills, emotional stability, or perhaps even the desire to be a mother, yet finds that she now has a child to raise. " > > > > Here's the thing - unless we've grown up with responsibility for babies in extended families, or large families (neither of which is the norm these days), most of us have NO CLUE what we're getting into when we have a first child. We may have seen people with babies, or seen movies, or read books - but I don't think there's any way to explain the way a new mother's life changes so totally. You really, quite literally, have to stop being yourself and turn into someone else. For many of us, it's immediate and there's no question about doing what's best for our babies. For others, it takes some time and leaves us confused and wondering what the heck happened to our old lives. Most of us manage to figure things out and put our childrens' welfare first (which is why " most " kids wind up OK) - but I think there's a very long continuum between Perfect Mom and Absolute Horror, and a lot of us fall closer to the middle than we'd like to admit. So I don't think that all parts of modern motherhood come " naturally " - like everything else, it's a combination of nature and nurture (and popular media). A lot of us struggle with it over the years (while keeping our kids fed, clothed, educated and fairly clean). > > > > That doesn't mean there's any excuse for the kind of abuse our Nadas dished out. But it may explain why it's so hard to just do a universal psychological examination. There's a LOT going on during a pregnancy and the first months of a baby's life (which is when new mothers get the most scrutiny). Women who are having a hard time giving up their old life and self-concept can be perfectly adequate mothers, given some time and encouragement (and the occasional night off duty). I'm not sure a psychologist could make that determination so early in the process, is all I'm saying. > > > > Look, I think there should be birth control in the water supply system, so you'd really have to WANT a baby to have one, and you'd have to be able to afford bottled water and have a plan to drink it for several months beforehand. But hey, that's just me... (what, too invasive?) > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing if everyone could have an annual physical checkup, and an annual psychological checkup. I think that's fascinating that you've found a recurring behavior noted in cases of child abuse that make the news or otherwise become available for reading: these disordered individuals blame their infant or child for having malicious intent!! (It seems to me that I remember reading that pedophiles often blame their victims as well, claiming that the tiny child " came on to him " sexually, and that he or she " wanted it " . So its never the pedophile's fault, either. Fascinating.) I agree; surely that peculiar and extremely disordered kind of thinking could be screened for: believing that an infant or small child is *capable* of adult-level thinking and planning, and believing that their infant or tiny child is *capable* of harboring intentional hostility and malice toward the parent. If only an educational program could be promoted, so that such disordered thinking would become a big red waving flag alerting the spouse, relatives, teachers, neighbors, friends, of such individuals who say such things or behave in that way, that some kind of intervention and treatment needs to take place for their child's protection. That would be so wonderful. -Annie > > > > Wow, I LIKE your idea of birth control meds in the drinking water so that people would have to make a conscious and determined effort to become pregnant!! (instead of the other way around) That is so brilliantly simple and innovative!! > > > > All I meant was, wouldn't it be great if prospective parents could have a psychological evaluation specifically to detect the severely disturbed individuals: the antisocial pds (and/or psychopaths), narcissistic pds, borderline pds, and other severe mental illnesses. > > If you read the diagnostic criteria for the Cluster B pds, its really the exact OPPOSITE of what makes for a " good enough " parent. Its frightening. > > > > Screening for severe mental illness in a prospective parent is all I'm after. > > > > This is the way I believe my nada's warped bpd/npd brain was thinking when she was a young mother: > > > > " I need to be a perfect mother, but my baby cries and won't stop even when I pick her up and try to comfort her. (I had colic) So this must mean that my baby thinks I am a bad mother. This makes me feel embarrassed, ashamed, and angry; I am supposed to be a perfect mother. If my baby hates me, then I hate her back. On top of that, my baby had to be hospitalized twice before she was two for major operations; I'm sure that other people must be thinking that I am a bad mother. I didn't sign up for this. This is expensive, and it takes all my time to care for a sick baby who doesn't even love me. What thanks do I get? None. Its all the baby's fault. I got a defective baby. I highly resent getting a hateful, rejecting, defective, sick baby; but I am a good person so I'll take care of her anyway. On top of it all, my child doesn't appreciate me at all; all she does is take, take, take, and all I do is give, give, give. But she won't let me near her, she acts like she hates me (I was afraid of her.) This embarrasses me and makes me feel bad about myself. She is a bad, hateful, thankless child, I have the right and the duty to punish her for this. Its OK to scream at my child and slap her around and spank her; being strict with her is being a good mother....etc. " > > > > See the difference? > > > > That's way outside the normal range of thinking; its personality-disordered thinking. That's the kind of warped thinking I wish could be screened for and then carefully supervised when of if such an individual like my nada should decide to have a child. > > > > -Annie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 I too hate those reality tv shows where people are yelling at each other... in fact, yelling of ANY kind upsets me to the point of tears. Thank goodness for sweet, positive reality shows like " The Choir. " But they're all too rare. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:16 PM, kyjohnson40days wrote: > > > Wow, Annie. I'm so glad to hear I'm not the only one. I am so confused by > reality tv. If I want to see sick, dysfunctional drama, I can go visit > family. I can't even be in the same room when they are on--even if they > aren't yelling, the sheer unpredictability of those shows just makes me > panicky inside. > > Dang. If folks only knew what that REALLY looked like up close and > personal. It's not entertainment, to be sure. > > Blessings, > Karla > > > > > > > > > > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > > > > > > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of > another > > > > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she > made > > > > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she > needed > > > > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on > and on. I > > > > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. > What, > > > > is she 2? Ha ha > > > > > > > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where > I can't > > > > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't > make > > > > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of > having to > > > > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY > people > > > > breathing around me. > > > > > > > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to > my bed, > > > > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a > good > > > > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. > He > > > > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > > > > > > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first > wake up > > > > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the > bathroom for > > > > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > > > > > > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though > when I > > > > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel > their > > > > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > > > > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or > out in > > > > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone > time/concentration > > > > time during the day like he does. > > > > > > > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, > sometimes I > > > > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a > minute. > > > > > > > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to > understand. > > > > > > > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to > listen > > > > to breathing like that? > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2010 Report Share Posted September 24, 2010 Yelling does that to me too. I can't stand it. I think I had enough yelling and screaming in my FOO to last me a few lifetimes. I don't care much for reality tv, it's all too much drama. Casey > > > > > > > > > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > > > > > > > > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of > > another > > > > > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she > > made > > > > > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she > > needed > > > > > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on > > and on. I > > > > > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. > > What, > > > > > is she 2? Ha ha > > > > > > > > > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where > > I can't > > > > > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't > > make > > > > > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of > > having to > > > > > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY > > people > > > > > breathing around me. > > > > > > > > > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to > > my bed, > > > > > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a > > good > > > > > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. > > He > > > > > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > > > > > > > > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first > > wake up > > > > > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the > > bathroom for > > > > > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > > > > > > > > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though > > when I > > > > > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel > > their > > > > > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > > > > > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or > > out in > > > > > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone > > time/concentration > > > > > time during the day like he does. > > > > > > > > > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, > > sometimes I > > > > > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a > > minute. > > > > > > > > > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to > > understand. > > > > > > > > > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to > > listen > > > > > to breathing like that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2010 Report Share Posted September 25, 2010 I can very much relate to the need for " alone time " . I have a baby and am very much needed by her or my partner most of the time and I love going to the supermarket just to have some " me " time. I know that sounds really sad! I'm not so much tuned in to breathing, but I think I spend a lot of my time when I'm socialising, sussing out other people's moods (and mostly attributing any sense of them being unhappy to something I may have done or said) and I often just get exhausted in other people's company as a result of this tendency. So as much as I love spending time with friends and family, I find I really need a lot of alone time to recharge. It can be hard to explain these things to loved ones without offending them, but it sounds like you have an open and honest relationship with your partner and he'll eventually learn to appreciate your need for some space. I think it's really healthy to spend time apart when you're in a relationship and you should definitely honour your needs here. It must drive you crazy being so aware of other people's breathing! I must admit, I had a giggle when you described your boyfriend as just lying there BREATHING , but I can seriously understand this would be so annoying for you and such a product of your constant fruitless effort to placate your Nada. Have you tried tuning in to your own breathing as an antidote? I do a lot of tuning into my breathing for meditative kind of purposes when I'm feeling overwhelmed and it helps to refocus my mind. I'm not sure if that is the answer, but just a suggestion Well good luck with this one. Let us now how you go With warmth, Lynda > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on. I > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What, > is she 2? Ha ha > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I can't > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having to > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people > breathing around me. > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my bed, > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake up > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out in > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration > time during the day like he does. > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to understand. > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to listen > to breathing like that? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2010 Report Share Posted September 25, 2010 HA HA HA Lydia - I know, all the BREATING!!!! This will also make you laugh, but my nada was a very melodramatic breather. She was very creative with it. And god help the little girl who didn't heed the cues! So, on the topic of the mental health screening, I LOVE that idea. I wonder whether that psychologist who evaluated you at 8 knew what he was doing - maybe he was wrapped around nada's finger? I wonder if we could identify the nadas and fadas who were headed for trouble based on their personality development? Sounds like part of it is being stuck developmentally. Hugs everyone! And no loud breathing! Also no grunting, sighing or etc. . . i have fought with every boyfriend I have ever had over the sighing. I insist that they are complaining about me when they sigh. . . ha ha they say its just a sigh! I guess thats a possiblity. I always thought it was a way of screaming at someone else. Or a precursor to screaming. Like the final warning before all hell breaks lose. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 1:59 AM, birdonawire77 wrote: > > > I can very much relate to the need for " alone time " . I have a baby and am > very much needed by her or my partner most of the time and I love going to > the supermarket just to have some " me " time. I know that sounds really sad! > > > I'm not so much tuned in to breathing, but I think I spend a lot of my time > when I'm socialising, sussing out other people's moods (and mostly > attributing any sense of them being unhappy to something I may have done or > said) and I often just get exhausted in other people's company as a result > of this tendency. So as much as I love spending time with friends and > family, I find I really need a lot of alone time to recharge. It can be hard > to explain these things to loved ones without offending them, but it sounds > like you have an open and honest relationship with your partner and he'll > eventually learn to appreciate your need for some space. I think it's really > healthy to spend time apart when you're in a relationship and you should > definitely honour your needs here. > > It must drive you crazy being so aware of other people's breathing! > I must admit, I had a giggle when you described your boyfriend as just > lying there BREATHING , but I can seriously understand this would be so > annoying for you and such a product of your constant fruitless effort to > placate your Nada. Have you tried tuning in to your own breathing as an > antidote? I do a lot of tuning into my breathing for meditative kind of > purposes when I'm feeling overwhelmed and it helps to refocus my mind. I'm > not sure if that is the answer, but just a suggestion > > Well good luck with this one. Let us now how you go > > With warmth, > > Lynda > > > > > > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another > > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made > > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed > > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and > on. I > > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. > What, > > is she 2? Ha ha > > > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I > can't > > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't > make > > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having > to > > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people > > breathing around me. > > > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my > bed, > > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good > > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He > > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake > up > > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom > for > > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when > I > > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their > > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out > in > > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration > > time during the day like he does. > > > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes > I > > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. > > > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to > understand. > > > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to > listen > > to breathing like that? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2010 Report Share Posted September 25, 2010 Lynda, I've got two kids. You sound just like a mom with a baby--the grocery store was my only retreat! It went from " weekend in the mountains " to " 35 glorious minutes alone while I shopped for diapers. " Just remember: these are the longest days and the shortest years. My " baby " is now 2 inches taller than me and in 7th grade. Blessings, Karla > > > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted > > > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another > > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made > > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed > > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on. I > > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What, > > is she 2? Ha ha > > > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I can't > > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make > > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having to > > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people > > breathing around me. > > > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my bed, > > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good > > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He > > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch. > > > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake up > > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for > > 2-3 min of aloneness. > > > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I > > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their > > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with > > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out in > > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration > > time during the day like he does. > > > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I > > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute. > > > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to understand. > > > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to listen > > to breathing like that? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2010 Report Share Posted September 25, 2010 Yes! wouldn't an annual psychological screening be great, for the kids sake...and I wish there were more done to protect children from their BPD parent/s, all my life I didn't know exactly what was wrong with my mother (if she dropped something while cooking, I was giving her the " evil eye " and that followed with a rage enduced screamfest, pulling my hair/hitting me and having to pick up what ever she decided to break-that's how she thought, how can a kid even escape that!) All I ever wished for was someone to come and " rescue " me from her...thank-god she could never break me! > > > > > > Wow, I LIKE your idea of birth control meds in the drinking water so that people would have to make a conscious and determined effort to become pregnant!! (instead of the other way around) That is so brilliantly simple and innovative!! > > > > > > All I meant was, wouldn't it be great if prospective parents could have a psychological evaluation specifically to detect the severely disturbed individuals: the antisocial pds (and/or psychopaths), narcissistic pds, borderline pds, and other severe mental illnesses. > > > If you read the diagnostic criteria for the Cluster B pds, its really the exact OPPOSITE of what makes for a " good enough " parent. Its frightening. > > > > > > Screening for severe mental illness in a prospective parent is all I'm after. > > > > > > This is the way I believe my nada's warped bpd/npd brain was thinking when she was a young mother: > > > > > > " I need to be a perfect mother, but my baby cries and won't stop even when I pick her up and try to comfort her. (I had colic) So this must mean that my baby thinks I am a bad mother. This makes me feel embarrassed, ashamed, and angry; I am supposed to be a perfect mother. If my baby hates me, then I hate her back. On top of that, my baby had to be hospitalized twice before she was two for major operations; I'm sure that other people must be thinking that I am a bad mother. I didn't sign up for this. This is expensive, and it takes all my time to care for a sick baby who doesn't even love me. What thanks do I get? None. Its all the baby's fault. I got a defective baby. I highly resent getting a hateful, rejecting, defective, sick baby; but I am a good person so I'll take care of her anyway. On top of it all, my child doesn't appreciate me at all; all she does is take, take, take, and all I do is give, give, give. But she won't let me near her, she acts like she hates me (I was afraid of her.) This embarrasses me and makes me feel bad about myself. She is a bad, hateful, thankless child, I have the right and the duty to punish her for this. Its OK to scream at my child and slap her around and spank her; being strict with her is being a good mother....etc. " > > > > > > See the difference? > > > > > > That's way outside the normal range of thinking; its personality-disordered thinking. That's the kind of warped thinking I wish could be screened for and then carefully supervised when of if such an individual like my nada should decide to have a child. > > > > > > -Annie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2010 Report Share Posted September 26, 2010 Good Lord. I haven't even finished reading through this thread and I'm just blown away at how well these comments articulate my life! Whenever nada talks about my infancy/toddlerhood/early years, she *always* assigns malicious intent to the things I did. She'll pull up things from that time as " evidence " of my malicious, rebellious, abusive nature when really, most of it was normal developmental stuff, or just serious projection on her part...such as, I " deliberately " caused her worry because I stopped growing for about 8 months in my first year because, according to her, I was seeking attention. She always laughs and says " So I just didn't give in to it, let you do what you wanted but I refused to be manipulated by a baby! " . Uh, yeah...an infant that STOPS GROWING FOR EIGHT MONTHS has a PROBLEM. And since I had no medical problems, I'm going to take a wild leap and say that it was neglect based...infants who do not get the affection they need DO stop growing. But you know...I knew all of that cognitively and it's not until just now that I'm starting to think...maybe I wasn't evil and malicious and rebellious. Because I've always just accepted that in addition to HER crazy, that *I* was the one who brought it out because I was so defiant and bad right from birth. Totally blown away right now. Ninera > > Subject: Re: breathing > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Saturday, September 25, 2010, 12:36 AM > I also had colic as a baby and my > nada felt the same way! When I was an older child I felt > GUILTY for being a bad baby. My nada told me I didn't love > her as a baby, that I always loved my dad more, that I > didn't " turn out " right and that's why she had to have > another baby. > > I do wish there was an evaluation before people had kids to > prevent abuse, but I think my nada could have faked it and > appeared normal then. > > Even when I was only 8 and was taken to a psychologist I > was so worried that my nada thought something was wrong with > me - and I was pretty sure something was wrong with me > myself - and that if she found out she wouldn't want me > anymore, so I lied to the doctor so they wouldn't think I > was " broken " . Despite having OCD and probably some other > problems, he told my parents nothing was wrong with me, the > only thing unusual was that I had a high IQ! If an 8 year > old can fool a doctor, my nada could. > > Casey > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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