Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 NIDS uses antivirals and antifungals (I think), as well as low-dose SSRI (theoretically to supply parts of the brain with more blood)The only " problem " getting your DAN to do it, is some DANs don't dose it aggressively enough and that could lead to viral mutation. Now this is what I understand from reading the list... we haven't done any NIDS yet, or RX stuff really (except Respen and LDN) Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering. I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko. Thanks, judy -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Not sure. Maybe Cheryl will see this. I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > > > > > > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using > > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular > > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering. > > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko. > > Thanks, > > judy > > > > > > > > -- > Toni > > ------ > Mind like a steel trap... > Rusty and illegal in 37 states. > -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Cheryl, Thanks that was amazing. I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > >> >> > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using> > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular> > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering.> > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko.> > Thanks,> > judy> > > >> > > > -- > Toni> > ------> Mind like a steel trap...> Rusty and illegal in 37 states.> -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Ha ha! I just might do that. But I'll have to do some editing - found oodles of mistakes and missing words, some rather important! Like this one:And because of the specificity of how antivirals replicate,It's supposed to say: And because of the specificity of how antivirals INHIBIT REPlICATION...That's a pretty big mistake! Antivirals don't replicate. Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~~@Gryffins_Tail~ wow, cheryl. great job. you just try to squeeze that on your blog To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 1:50:01 PMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS Thanks Cheryl. :-) Very readable, to me :-) My explanation for this is long, bear with me. I can't give a full-blown scientific explanation but I can try to explain it in layman's terms as I understand it. Now, keep in mind that this is all from Dr. Goldberg. I don't know why DAN *doesn't* feel the same way so I have no way of even guessing if they may be wrong, right, or somewhere in the middle. My own DAN even thinks that 2x is usually sufficient with no viral mutation but is not opposed to 3x a day and does see benefit. But I can guess why they *might* think 2x a day is fine, and that is half-life, which is the basis for all medicine dosage. The half-life of Valtrex is approximately 4 hours (some studies say more, some say less so 4 is about what I call the average, again, no science involved in my conclusion on that). And also understand that when looking at half-life, the amount of drug in the system doesn't simply drop in equal number by hour. You don't start off taking 1000 mg and in 2 hours you have 500 mg in the system and in 3 hours you have 250 mg. And this is probably why there is differentiation in results of half-life, there are other factors that come into play. Again, I'm not a scientist and I have no idea how half-life really works as a function. I only understand it as a concept. Half-life simply means how long it takes for half the medicine to be gone from your system. But before we go on to why half-life is important, we need to look at how the medicine works. It works by inhibiting replication. Different antivirals do this in different ways but this is the outcome - they can't replicate. Viruses, which are not living organisms, just strands of DNA/RNA with a hard outer shell - they don't even qualify as being a single-celled organism. Anyway, they inject themselves into host cells and hijack the replication system, encoding themselves into your DNA and that's how they replicate. Antivirals stop this process but they only work for as long as the drug is in the system. I'm not sure what the threshold is for how much is necessary to have in the system for it to work. Could be 500 mg, could be 5 mg, I don't know. But think of it like this. We know there are thresholds for something to work. We know that underdosing an antibiotic will not kill the bacteria you are treating. The same applies to supplements. If you take 5mg of Vitamin C a day, it's not likely going to do anything but waste the time it takes to take the capsule and your money buying the bottle. There's no effect until you reach a minimum amount of vitamin C a day. So now we get back to half-life. You want to keep enough of the drug in the system to maintain a workable dosage in the body. In NIDS, they want to keep a higher amount to ensure it's inhibiting replication. Here's what I think *might* be going on DAN. Because the half-life is about 4 hours, they may be assuming that every 8 hours is sufficient, they aren't concerned by the minimum threshold amount for it to work. They just want you to take it at about the time the drug is almost completely out of the system. NIDS isn't taking that chance. It exponentially increases the amount of drug in the system so that by the time you go to bed, you have enough in the system to make it through the night without *running out.* (Now, keep in mind that I said I don't know the mechanics of half-life. So I say exponentially but I don't truly know that that happens or the mechanics of it. It might not be exponentially increasing the amount of drugs you have in your system, just like it does't exponentially decrease.) With DAN, you are taking it once in the morning to get you through the day and then once in the evening to get you through the night. Now, in my mind, if the life of a drug is approximately 8 hours (could be more, could be less because remember the above exponential problems we have but we are just going to assume 8 for the purpose of trying to explain). There are 24 hours in the day. Taking it twice a day only covers 16 with a possible extension of maybe 4 hours but I find it hard to believe that it will cover a full 24 hours). In 3 times a day, you have overlapped dosage before the dose runs out, so there is more in the system and this extends the length of time it's going to be in the system, hopefully covering the full 24 hours. Now I could be *totally* wrong in my understanding of this. I do not claim to have the answers. It's just my understanding and my working my way around the information I understand. So how does this affect viral mutation? Simple. Viruses mutate. When you allow replication to restart, that gives them an opportunity to mutate because that's when mutation occurs - replication. The same is true of anything. The cells in your body don't just mutate as they are in your body all whole and complete and doing their job, they mutate during replication. The same is true of bacteria and the overuse of antibiotics. By dosing 2x a day, you are leaving a gaping window of opportunity for replication. Here's the thing about mutations. Everything mutates, viruses, bacteria, cells, DNA, *everything.* New flu strains come up every year, babies are born with genetic defects, etc. Viruses aren't actively thinking "I need to mutate to form a resistance to a drug." They just mutate. And because of the specificity of how antivirals replicate, they can mutate themselves into drug resistance. Antivirals can work simply by changing one little tiny protein that disrupts their current method of replication. One mutation that doesn't involve that protein and it's resistant because antivirals are *sooooo* specific. Any tiny mutation could lead to resistance. And the less complex the thing, the more significant the mutations can be. This is why you don't see babies born with 6 toes every single day, in every single hospital, we are too complex and mutations within us aren't always so major or even remotely significant. There isn't much info on antivirals and mutation with autism, of course. Where you tend to find the information on viral mutation with antiviral use is in the places where it is life threatening, namely - AIDS and other immunocompromised illnesses that have any potential to be fatal. Most of the research done in this area is on AIDS patients. Typically, AIDS patients find that the antivirals don't work - not because they are dosed wrong, but because as patients, they aren't taking it as directed. They are skipping doses. Of course, that's not the only reason, but it is major reason and a very important reminder that one must take these drugs appropriately if they are expected to work. Is DAN right in 2x a day, is it sufficient? I can't say. I can only tell you that this is how I've worked it out in my mind and I tend to think that 2x a day is generally not sufficient. Since there are kids getting benefit from it at 2x a day is simply more proof that we just don't know. They Rx antivirals as low as 1 time a day for some illnesses. So the answer is really still a mystery to me no matter how I work it out trying to apply logic when I really don't know all the facts. But this is the conclusion I came to. I have no idea if that helped or not. And if anyone has anything to add or correct or clarify, hop on pop! Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ On Jan 27, 2011, at 3:54 AM, Toni Marie Lombardo wrote: Not sure. Maybe Cheryl will see this. I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > >> >> > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using> > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular> > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering.> > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko.> > Thanks,> > judy> > > >> > > > -- > Toni> > ------> Mind like a steel trap...> Rusty and illegal in 37 states.> -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 lol...that's ok, I only had one line and managed to screw it up. I meant " you SHOULD squeeze it onto your blog, not "you JUST'....I wasn't being bossy lol To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 4:06:54 PMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS Ha ha! I just might do that. But I'll have to do some editing - found oodles of mistakes and missing words, some rather important! Like this one: And because of the specificity of how antivirals replicate, It's supposed to say: And because of the specificity of how antivirals INHIBIT REPlICATION... That's a pretty big mistake! Antivirals don't replicate. Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ wow, cheryl. great job. you just try to squeeze that on your blog To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 1:50:01 PMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS Thanks Cheryl. :-) Very readable, to me :-) My explanation for this is long, bear with me. I can't give a full-blown scientific explanation but I can try to explain it in layman's terms as I understand it. Now, keep in mind that this is all from Dr. Goldberg. I don't know why DAN *doesn't* feel the same way so I have no way of even guessing if they may be wrong, right, or somewhere in the middle. My own DAN even thinks that 2x is usually sufficient with no viral mutation but is not opposed to 3x a day and does see benefit. But I can guess why they *might* think 2x a day is fine, and that is half-life, which is the basis for all medicine dosage. The half-life of Valtrex is approximately 4 hours (some studies say more, some say less so 4 is about what I call the average, again, no science involved in my conclusion on that). And also understand that when looking at half-life, the amount of drug in the system doesn't simply drop in equal number by hour. You don't start off taking 1000 mg and in 2 hours you have 500 mg in the system and in 3 hours you have 250 mg. And this is probably why there is differentiation in results of half-life, there are other factors that come into play. Again, I'm not a scientist and I have no idea how half-life really works as a function. I only understand it as a concept. Half-life simply means how long it takes for half the medicine to be gone from your system. But before we go on to why half-life is important, we need to look at how the medicine works. It works by inhibiting replication. Different antivirals do this in different ways but this is the outcome - they can't replicate. Viruses, which are not living organisms, just strands of DNA/RNA with a hard outer shell - they don't even qualify as being a single-celled organism. Anyway, they inject themselves into host cells and hijack the replication system, encoding themselves into your DNA and that's how they replicate. Antivirals stop this process but they only work for as long as the drug is in the system. I'm not sure what the threshold is for how much is necessary to have in the system for it to work. Could be 500 mg, could be 5 mg, I don't know. But think of it like this. We know there are thresholds for something to work. We know that underdosing an antibiotic will not kill the bacteria you are treating. The same applies to supplements. If you take 5mg of Vitamin C a day, it's not likely going to do anything but waste the time it takes to take the capsule and your money buying the bottle. There's no effect until you reach a minimum amount of vitamin C a day. So now we get back to half-life. You want to keep enough of the drug in the system to maintain a workable dosage in the body. In NIDS, they want to keep a higher amount to ensure it's inhibiting replication. Here's what I think *might* be going on DAN. Because the half-life is about 4 hours, they may be assuming that every 8 hours is sufficient, they aren't concerned by the minimum threshold amount for it to work. They just want you to take it at about the time the drug is almost completely out of the system. NIDS isn't taking that chance. It exponentially increases the amount of drug in the system so that by the time you go to bed, you have enough in the system to make it through the night without *running out.* (Now, keep in mind that I said I don't know the mechanics of half-life. So I say exponentially but I don't truly know that that happens or the mechanics of it. It might not be exponentially increasing the amount of drugs you have in your system, just like it does't exponentially decrease.) With DAN, you are taking it once in the morning to get you through the day and then once in the evening to get you through the night. Now, in my mind, if the life of a drug is approximately 8 hours (could be more, could be less because remember the above exponential problems we have but we are just going to assume 8 for the purpose of trying to explain). There are 24 hours in the day. Taking it twice a day only covers 16 with a possible extension of maybe 4 hours but I find it hard to believe that it will cover a full 24 hours). In 3 times a day, you have overlapped dosage before the dose runs out, so there is more in the system and this extends the length of time it's going to be in the system, hopefully covering the full 24 hours. Now I could be *totally* wrong in my understanding of this. I do not claim to have the answers. It's just my understanding and my working my way around the information I understand. So how does this affect viral mutation? Simple. Viruses mutate. When you allow replication to restart, that gives them an opportunity to mutate because that's when mutation occurs - replication. The same is true of anything. The cells in your body don't just mutate as they are in your body all whole and complete and doing their job, they mutate during replication. The same is true of bacteria and the overuse of antibiotics. By dosing 2x a day, you are leaving a gaping window of opportunity for replication. Here's the thing about mutations. Everything mutates, viruses, bacteria, cells, DNA, *everything.* New flu strains come up every year, babies are born with genetic defects, etc. Viruses aren't actively thinking "I need to mutate to form a resistance to a drug." They just mutate. And because of the specificity of how antivirals replicate, they can mutate themselves into drug resistance. Antivirals can work simply by changing one little tiny protein that disrupts their current method of replication. One mutation that doesn't involve that protein and it's resistant because antivirals are *sooooo* specific. Any tiny mutation could lead to resistance. And the less complex the thing, the more significant the mutations can be. This is why you don't see babies born with 6 toes every single day, in every single hospital, we are too complex and mutations within us aren't always so major or even remotely significant. There isn't much info on antivirals and mutation with autism, of course. Where you tend to find the information on viral mutation with antiviral use is in the places where it is life threatening, namely - AIDS and other immunocompromised illnesses that have any potential to be fatal. Most of the research done in this area is on AIDS patients. Typically, AIDS patients find that the antivirals don't work - not because they are dosed wrong, but because as patients, they aren't taking it as directed. They are skipping doses. Of course, that's not the only reason, but it is major reason and a very important reminder that one must take these drugs appropriately if they are expected to work. Is DAN right in 2x a day, is it sufficient? I can't say. I can only tell you that this is how I've worked it out in my mind and I tend to think that 2x a day is generally not sufficient. Since there are kids getting benefit from it at 2x a day is simply more proof that we just don't know. They Rx antivirals as low as 1 time a day for some illnesses. So the answer is really still a mystery to me no matter how I work it out trying to apply logic when I really don't know all the facts. But this is the conclusion I came to. I have no idea if that helped or not. And if anyone has anything to add or correct or clarify, hop on pop! Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ On Jan 27, 2011, at 3:54 AM, Toni Marie Lombardo wrote: Not sure. Maybe Cheryl will see this. I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > >> >> > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using> > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular> > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering.> > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko.> > Thanks,> > judy> > > >> > > > -- > Toni> > ------> Mind like a steel trap...> Rusty and illegal in 37 states.> -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Thanks for your explanation. It is helpful. The NeuroSensory Center doesn't follow standard DAN practices, its protocol is based on Dr. Kendall 's theory. Valtrex, or more commonly acylovir, is dosed once daily. Amantadine once daily as well. > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using > >> > > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular > >> > > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering. > >> > > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko. > >> > > Thanks, > >> > > judy > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Toni > >> > > >> > ------ > >> > Mind like a steel trap... > >> > Rusty and illegal in 37 states. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Toni > >> > >> ------ > >> Mind like a steel trap... > >> Rusty and illegal in 37 states. > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Toni > > > > ------ > > Mind like a steel trap... > > Rusty and illegal in 37 states. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 I believe it can be stealth because otherwise Wakefield would never have found what he found and neither would the 5 others that replicated his study. Wakefield's entire study can be found on my blog if you want to read it. Just don't ask me what post it's under, I can't remember! Lol! We treated with TF-RMM and will be doing high dose Vitamin A eventually. I haven't really focused on MMR because our bigger issue was HHV6 and EBV. Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~~@Gryffins_Tail~ Yes very easy to understand. Thanks Cheryl - I think the unique perspective you bring is the collection of perspective.Do you have some info on dealing with high rubella titers? What is the cause - can it be stealth? Do folks do the High Vitamin A for Rubella as well?KayTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 10:50:01 AMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS Thanks Cheryl. :-) Very readable, to me :-) My explanation for this is long, bear with me. I can't give a full-blown scientific explanation but I can try to explain it in layman's terms as I understand it. Now, keep in mind that this is all from Dr. Goldberg. I don't know why DAN *doesn't* feel the same way so I have no way of even guessing if they may be wrong, right, or somewhere in the middle. My own DAN even thinks that 2x is usually sufficient with no viral mutation but is not opposed to 3x a day and does see benefit. But I can guess why they *might* think 2x a day is fine, and that is half-life, which is the basis for all medicine dosage. The half-life of Valtrex is approximately 4 hours (some studies say more, some say less so 4 is about what I call the average, again, no science involved in my conclusion on that). And also understand that when looking at half-life, the amount of drug in the system doesn't simply drop in equal number by hour. You don't start off taking 1000 mg and in 2 hours you have 500 mg in the system and in 3 hours you have 250 mg. And this is probably why there is differentiation in results of half-life, there are other factors that come into play. Again, I'm not a scientist and I have no idea how half-life really works as a function. I only understand it as a concept. Half-life simply means how long it takes for half the medicine to be gone from your system. But before we go on to why half-life is important, we need to look at how the medicine works. It works by inhibiting replication. Different antivirals do this in different ways but this is the outcome - they can't replicate. Viruses, which are not living organisms, just strands of DNA/RNA with a hard outer shell - they don't even qualify as being a single-celled organism. Anyway, they inject themselves into host cells and hijack the replication system, encoding themselves into your DNA and that's how they replicate. Antivirals stop this process but they only work for as long as the drug is in the system. I'm not sure what the threshold is for how much is necessary to have in the system for it to work. Could be 500 mg, could be 5 mg, I don't know. But think of it like this. We know there are thresholds for something to work. We know that underdosing an antibiotic will not kill the bacteria you are treating. The same applies to supplements. If you take 5mg of Vitamin C a day, it's not likely going to do anything but waste the time it takes to take the capsule and your money buying the bottle. There's no effect until you reach a minimum amount of vitamin C a day. So now we get back to half-life. You want to keep enough of the drug in the system to maintain a workable dosage in the body. In NIDS, they want to keep a higher amount to ensure it's inhibiting replication. Here's what I think *might* be going on DAN. Because the half-life is about 4 hours, they may be assuming that every 8 hours is sufficient, they aren't concerned by the minimum threshold amount for it to work. They just want you to take it at about the time the drug is almost completely out of the system. NIDS isn't taking that chance. It exponentially increases the amount of drug in the system so that by the time you go to bed, you have enough in the system to make it through the night without *running out.* (Now, keep in mind that I said I don't know the mechanics of half-life. So I say exponentially but I don't truly know that that happens or the mechanics of it. It might not be exponentially increasing the amount of drugs you have in your system, just like it does't exponentially decrease.) With DAN, you are taking it once in the morning to get you through the day and then once in the evening to get you through the night. Now, in my mind, if the life of a drug is approximately 8 hours (could be more, could be less because remember the above exponential problems we have but we are just going to assume 8 for the purpose of trying to explain). There are 24 hours in the day. Taking it twice a day only covers 16 with a possible extension of maybe 4 hours but I find it hard to believe that it will cover a full 24 hours). In 3 times a day, you have overlapped dosage before the dose runs out, so there is more in the system and this extends the length of time it's going to be in the system, hopefully covering the full 24 hours. Now I could be *totally* wrong in my understanding of this. I do not claim to have the answers. It's just my understanding and my working my way around the information I understand. So how does this affect viral mutation? Simple. Viruses mutate. When you allow replication to restart, that gives them an opportunity to mutate because that's when mutation occurs - replication. The same is true of anything. The cells in your body don't just mutate as they are in your body all whole and complete and doing their job, they mutate during replication. The same is true of bacteria and the overuse of antibiotics. By dosing 2x a day, you are leaving a gaping window of opportunity for replication.Here's the thing about mutations. Everything mutates, viruses, bacteria, cells, DNA, *everything.* New flu strains come up every year, babies are born with genetic defects, etc. Viruses aren't actively thinking "I need to mutate to form a resistance to a drug." They just mutate. And because of the specificity of how antivirals replicate, they can mutate themselves into drug resistance. Antivirals can work simply by changing one little tiny protein that disrupts their current method of replication. One mutation that doesn't involve that protein and it's resistant because antivirals are *sooooo* specific. Any tiny mutation could lead to resistance. And the less complex the thing, the more significant the mutations can be. This is why you don't see babies born with 6 toes every single day, in every single hospital, we are too complex and mutations within us aren't always so major or even remotely significant. There isn't much info on antivirals and mutation with autism, of course. Where you tend to find the information on viral mutation with antiviral use is in the places where it is life threatening, namely - AIDS and other immunocompromised illnesses that have any potential to be fatal. Most of the research done in this area is on AIDS patients. Typically, AIDS patients find that the antivirals don't work - not because they are dosed wrong, but because as patients, they aren't taking it as directed. They are skipping doses. Of course, that's not the only reason, but it is major reason and a very important reminder that one must take these drugs appropriately if they are expected to work. Is DAN right in 2x a day, is it sufficient? I can't say. I can only tell you that this is how I've worked it out in my mind and I tend to think that 2x a day is generally not sufficient. Since there are kids getting benefit from it at 2x a day is simply more proof that we just don't know. They Rx antivirals as low as 1 time a day for some illnesses. So the answer is really still a mystery to me no matter how I work it out trying to apply logic when I really don't know all the facts. But this is the conclusion I came to. I have no idea if that helped or not. And if anyone has anything to add or correct or clarify, hop on pop! Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ On Jan 27, 2011, at 3:54 AM, Toni Marie Lombardo wrote: Not sure. Maybe Cheryl will see this. I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > > > > > > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using > > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular > > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering. > > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko. > > Thanks, > > judy > > > > > > > > -- > Toni > > ------ > Mind like a steel trap... > Rusty and illegal in 37 states. > -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Tom's IgG for hhv6 came back at 1.60. That's not ridiculously high, is it?To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 9:56:02 PMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS I believe it can be stealth because otherwise Wakefield would never have found what he found and neither would the 5 others that replicated his study. Wakefield's entire study can be found on my blog if you want to read it. Just don't ask me what post it's under, I can't remember! Lol! We treated with TF-RMM and will be doing high dose Vitamin A eventually. I haven't really focused on MMR because our bigger issue was HHV6 and EBV. Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~~@Gryffins_Tail~ Yes very easy to understand. Thanks Cheryl - I think the unique perspective you bring is the collection of perspective.Do you have some info on dealing with high rubella titers? What is the cause - can it be stealth? Do folks do the High Vitamin A for Rubella as well?KayTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 10:50:01 AMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS Thanks Cheryl. :-) Very readable, to me :-) My explanation for this is long, bear with me. I can't give a full-blown scientific explanation but I can try to explain it in layman's terms as I understand it. Now, keep in mind that this is all from Dr. Goldberg. I don't know why DAN *doesn't* feel the same way so I have no way of even guessing if they may be wrong, right, or somewhere in the middle. My own DAN even thinks that 2x is usually sufficient with no viral mutation but is not opposed to 3x a day and does see benefit. But I can guess why they *might* think 2x a day is fine, and that is half-life, which is the basis for all medicine dosage. The half-life of Valtrex is approximately 4 hours (some studies say more, some say less so 4 is about what I call the average, again, no science involved in my conclusion on that). And also understand that when looking at half-life, the amount of drug in the system doesn't simply drop in equal number by hour. You don't start off taking 1000 mg and in 2 hours you have 500 mg in the system and in 3 hours you have 250 mg. And this is probably why there is differentiation in results of half-life, there are other factors that come into play. Again, I'm not a scientist and I have no idea how half-life really works as a function. I only understand it as a concept. Half-life simply means how long it takes for half the medicine to be gone from your system. But before we go on to why half-life is important, we need to look at how the medicine works. It works by inhibiting replication. Different antivirals do this in different ways but this is the outcome - they can't replicate. Viruses, which are not living organisms, just strands of DNA/RNA with a hard outer shell - they don't even qualify as being a single-celled organism. Anyway, they inject themselves into host cells and hijack the replication system, encoding themselves into your DNA and that's how they replicate. Antivirals stop this process but they only work for as long as the drug is in the system. I'm not sure what the threshold is for how much is necessary to have in the system for it to work. Could be 500 mg, could be 5 mg, I don't know. But think of it like this. We know there are thresholds for something to work. We know that underdosing an antibiotic will not kill the bacteria you are treating. The same applies to supplements. If you take 5mg of Vitamin C a day, it's not likely going to do anything but waste the time it takes to take the capsule and your money buying the bottle. There's no effect until you reach a minimum amount of vitamin C a day. So now we get back to half-life. You want to keep enough of the drug in the system to maintain a workable dosage in the body. In NIDS, they want to keep a higher amount to ensure it's inhibiting replication. Here's what I think *might* be going on DAN. Because the half-life is about 4 hours, they may be assuming that every 8 hours is sufficient, they aren't concerned by the minimum threshold amount for it to work. They just want you to take it at about the time the drug is almost completely out of the system. NIDS isn't taking that chance. It exponentially increases the amount of drug in the system so that by the time you go to bed, you have enough in the system to make it through the night without *running out.* (Now, keep in mind that I said I don't know the mechanics of half-life. So I say exponentially but I don't truly know that that happens or the mechanics of it. It might not be exponentially increasing the amount of drugs you have in your system, just like it does't exponentially decrease.) With DAN, you are taking it once in the morning to get you through the day and then once in the evening to get you through the night. Now, in my mind, if the life of a drug is approximately 8 hours (could be more, could be less because remember the above exponential problems we have but we are just going to assume 8 for the purpose of trying to explain). There are 24 hours in the day. Taking it twice a day only covers 16 with a possible extension of maybe 4 hours but I find it hard to believe that it will cover a full 24 hours). In 3 times a day, you have overlapped dosage before the dose runs out, so there is more in the system and this extends the length of time it's going to be in the system, hopefully covering the full 24 hours. Now I could be *totally* wrong in my understanding of this. I do not claim to have the answers. It's just my understanding and my working my way around the information I understand. So how does this affect viral mutation? Simple. Viruses mutate. When you allow replication to restart, that gives them an opportunity to mutate because that's when mutation occurs - replication. The same is true of anything. The cells in your body don't just mutate as they are in your body all whole and complete and doing their job, they mutate during replication. The same is true of bacteria and the overuse of antibiotics. By dosing 2x a day, you are leaving a gaping window of opportunity for replication.Here's the thing about mutations. Everything mutates, viruses, bacteria, cells, DNA, *everything.* New flu strains come up every year, babies are born with genetic defects, etc. Viruses aren't actively thinking "I need to mutate to form a resistance to a drug." They just mutate. And because of the specificity of how antivirals replicate, they can mutate themselves into drug resistance. Antivirals can work simply by changing one little tiny protein that disrupts their current method of replication. One mutation that doesn't involve that protein and it's resistant because antivirals are *sooooo* specific. Any tiny mutation could lead to resistance. And the less complex the thing, the more significant the mutations can be. This is why you don't see babies born with 6 toes every single day, in every single hospital, we are too complex and mutations within us aren't always so major or even remotely significant. There isn't much info on antivirals and mutation with autism, of course. Where you tend to find the information on viral mutation with antiviral use is in the places where it is life threatening, namely - AIDS and other immunocompromised illnesses that have any potential to be fatal. Most of the research done in this area is on AIDS patients. Typically, AIDS patients find that the antivirals don't work - not because they are dosed wrong, but because as patients, they aren't taking it as directed. They are skipping doses. Of course, that's not the only reason, but it is major reason and a very important reminder that one must take these drugs appropriately if they are expected to work. Is DAN right in 2x a day, is it sufficient? I can't say. I can only tell you that this is how I've worked it out in my mind and I tend to think that 2x a day is generally not sufficient. Since there are kids getting benefit from it at 2x a day is simply more proof that we just don't know. They Rx antivirals as low as 1 time a day for some illnesses. So the answer is really still a mystery to me no matter how I work it out trying to apply logic when I really don't know all the facts. But this is the conclusion I came to. I have no idea if that helped or not. And if anyone has anything to add or correct or clarify, hop on pop! Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com/~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ On Jan 27, 2011, at 3:54 AM, Toni Marie Lombardo wrote: Not sure. Maybe Cheryl will see this. I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > > > > > > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using > > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular > > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering. > > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko. > > Thanks, > > judy > > > > > > > > -- > Toni > > ------ > Mind like a steel trap... > Rusty and illegal in 37 states. > -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 No, it's not. But that doesn't mean much. Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~~@Gryffins_Tail~ Tom's IgG for hhv6 came back at 1.60. That's not ridiculously high, is it?To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 9:56:02 PMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS I believe it can be stealth because otherwise Wakefield would never have found what he found and neither would the 5 others that replicated his study. Wakefield's entire study can be found on my blog if you want to read it. Just don't ask me what post it's under, I can't remember! Lol! We treated with TF-RMM and will be doing high dose Vitamin A eventually. I haven't really focused on MMR because our bigger issue was HHV6 and EBV. Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~~@Gryffins_Tail~ Yes very easy to understand. Thanks Cheryl - I think the unique perspective you bring is the collection of perspective.Do you have some info on dealing with high rubella titers? What is the cause - can it be stealth? Do folks do the High Vitamin A for Rubella as well?KayTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 10:50:01 AMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS Thanks Cheryl. :-) Very readable, to me :-) My explanation for this is long, bear with me. I can't give a full-blown scientific explanation but I can try to explain it in layman's terms as I understand it. Now, keep in mind that this is all from Dr. Goldberg. I don't know why DAN *doesn't* feel the same way so I have no way of even guessing if they may be wrong, right, or somewhere in the middle. My own DAN even thinks that 2x is usually sufficient with no viral mutation but is not opposed to 3x a day and does see benefit. But I can guess why they *might* think 2x a day is fine, and that is half-life, which is the basis for all medicine dosage. The half-life of Valtrex is approximately 4 hours (some studies say more, some say less so 4 is about what I call the average, again, no science involved in my conclusion on that). And also understand that when looking at half-life, the amount of drug in the system doesn't simply drop in equal number by hour. You don't start off taking 1000 mg and in 2 hours you have 500 mg in the system and in 3 hours you have 250 mg. And this is probably why there is differentiation in results of half-life, there are other factors that come into play. Again, I'm not a scientist and I have no idea how half-life really works as a function. I only understand it as a concept. Half-life simply means how long it takes for half the medicine to be gone from your system. But before we go on to why half-life is important, we need to look at how the medicine works. It works by inhibiting replication. Different antivirals do this in different ways but this is the outcome - they can't replicate. Viruses, which are not living organisms, just strands of DNA/RNA with a hard outer shell - they don't even qualify as being a single-celled organism. Anyway, they inject themselves into host cells and hijack the replication system, encoding themselves into your DNA and that's how they replicate. Antivirals stop this process but they only work for as long as the drug is in the system. I'm not sure what the threshold is for how much is necessary to have in the system for it to work. Could be 500 mg, could be 5 mg, I don't know. But think of it like this. We know there are thresholds for something to work. We know that underdosing an antibiotic will not kill the bacteria you are treating. The same applies to supplements. If you take 5mg of Vitamin C a day, it's not likely going to do anything but waste the time it takes to take the capsule and your money buying the bottle. There's no effect until you reach a minimum amount of vitamin C a day. So now we get back to half-life. You want to keep enough of the drug in the system to maintain a workable dosage in the body. In NIDS, they want to keep a higher amount to ensure it's inhibiting replication. Here's what I think *might* be going on DAN. Because the half-life is about 4 hours, they may be assuming that every 8 hours is sufficient, they aren't concerned by the minimum threshold amount for it to work. They just want you to take it at about the time the drug is almost completely out of the system. NIDS isn't taking that chance. It exponentially increases the amount of drug in the system so that by the time you go to bed, you have enough in the system to make it through the night without *running out.* (Now, keep in mind that I said I don't know the mechanics of half-life. So I say exponentially but I don't truly know that that happens or the mechanics of it. It might not be exponentially increasing the amount of drugs you have in your system, just like it does't exponentially decrease.) With DAN, you are taking it once in the morning to get you through the day and then once in the evening to get you through the night. Now, in my mind, if the life of a drug is approximately 8 hours (could be more, could be less because remember the above exponential problems we have but we are just going to assume 8 for the purpose of trying to explain). There are 24 hours in the day. Taking it twice a day only covers 16 with a possible extension of maybe 4 hours but I find it hard to believe that it will cover a full 24 hours). In 3 times a day, you have overlapped dosage before the dose runs out, so there is more in the system and this extends the length of time it's going to be in the system, hopefully covering the full 24 hours. Now I could be *totally* wrong in my understanding of this. I do not claim to have the answers. It's just my understanding and my working my way around the information I understand. So how does this affect viral mutation? Simple. Viruses mutate. When you allow replication to restart, that gives them an opportunity to mutate because that's when mutation occurs - replication. The same is true of anything. The cells in your body don't just mutate as they are in your body all whole and complete and doing their job, they mutate during replication. The same is true of bacteria and the overuse of antibiotics. By dosing 2x a day, you are leaving a gaping window of opportunity for replication.Here's the thing about mutations. Everything mutates, viruses, bacteria, cells, DNA, *everything.* New flu strains come up every year, babies are born with genetic defects, etc. Viruses aren't actively thinking "I need to mutate to form a resistance to a drug." They just mutate. And because of the specificity of how antivirals replicate, they can mutate themselves into drug resistance. Antivirals can work simply by changing one little tiny protein that disrupts their current method of replication. One mutation that doesn't involve that protein and it's resistant because antivirals are *sooooo* specific. Any tiny mutation could lead to resistance. And the less complex the thing, the more significant the mutations can be. This is why you don't see babies born with 6 toes every single day, in every single hospital, we are too complex and mutations within us aren't always so major or even remotely significant. There isn't much info on antivirals and mutation with autism, of course. Where you tend to find the information on viral mutation with antiviral use is in the places where it is life threatening, namely - AIDS and other immunocompromised illnesses that have any potential to be fatal. Most of the research done in this area is on AIDS patients. Typically, AIDS patients find that the antivirals don't work - not because they are dosed wrong, but because as patients, they aren't taking it as directed. They are skipping doses. Of course, that's not the only reason, but it is major reason and a very important reminder that one must take these drugs appropriately if they are expected to work. Is DAN right in 2x a day, is it sufficient? I can't say. I can only tell you that this is how I've worked it out in my mind and I tend to think that 2x a day is generally not sufficient. Since there are kids getting benefit from it at 2x a day is simply more proof that we just don't know. They Rx antivirals as low as 1 time a day for some illnesses. So the answer is really still a mystery to me no matter how I work it out trying to apply logic when I really don't know all the facts. But this is the conclusion I came to. I have no idea if that helped or not. And if anyone has anything to add or correct or clarify, hop on pop! Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com/~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ On Jan 27, 2011, at 3:54 AM, Toni Marie Lombardo wrote: Not sure. Maybe Cheryl will see this. I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > > > > > > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using > > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular > > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering. > > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko. > > Thanks, > > judy > > > > > > > > -- > Toni > > ------ > Mind like a steel trap... > Rusty and illegal in 37 states. > -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 New to the anti viral thing.............Who what when where and why are people doing anti virals? Help and advice please. Are these children at risk for viruses? Please help Always Call Christie Gravatt We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience! I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > >> >> > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using> > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular> > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering.> > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko.> > Thanks,> > judy> > > >> > > > -- > Toni> > ------> Mind like a steel trap...> Rusty and illegal in 37 states.> -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Here you go! :~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 10:09:46 PMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS New to the anti viral thing.............Who what when where and why are people doing anti virals? Help and advice please. Are these children at risk for viruses? Please help Always Call Christie Gravatt We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience! I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > >> >> > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using> > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular> > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering.> > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko.> > Thanks,> > judy> > > >> > > > -- > Toni> > ------> Mind like a steel trap...> Rusty and illegal in 37 states.> -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 I think we are in the 3's. Tom's IgG for hhv6 came back at 1.60. That's not ridiculously high, is it? To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 9:56:02 PM Subject: Re: Re: NIDS I believe it can be stealth because otherwise Wakefield would never have found what he found and neither would the 5 others that replicated his study. Wakefield's entire study can be found on my blog if you want to read it. Just don't ask me what post it's under, I can't remember! Lol! We treated with TF-RMM and will be doing high dose Vitamin A eventually. I haven't really focused on MMR because our bigger issue was HHV6 and EBV. Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ Yes very easy to understand. Thanks Cheryl - I think the unique perspective you bring is the collection of perspective. Do you have some info on dealing with high rubella titers? What is the cause - can it be stealth? Do folks do the High Vitamin A for Rubella as well?Kay To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 10:50:01 AMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS Thanks Cheryl. :-) Very readable, to me :-) My explanation for this is long, bear with me. I can't give a full-blown scientific explanation but I can try to explain it in layman's terms as I understand it. Now, keep in mind that this is all from Dr. Goldberg. I don't know why DAN *doesn't* feel the same way so I have no way of even guessing if they may be wrong, right, or somewhere in the middle. My own DAN even thinks that 2x is usually sufficient with no viral mutation but is not opposed to 3x a day and does see benefit. But I can guess why they *might* think 2x a day is fine, and that is half-life, which is the basis for all medicine dosage. The half-life of Valtrex is approximately 4 hours (some studies say more, some say less so 4 is about what I call the average, again, no science involved in my conclusion on that). And also understand that when looking at half-life, the amount of drug in the system doesn't simply drop in equal number by hour. You don't start off taking 1000 mg and in 2 hours you have 500 mg in the system and in 3 hours you have 250 mg. And this is probably why there is differentiation in results of half-life, there are other factors that come into play. Again, I'm not a scientist and I have no idea how half-life really works as a function. I only understand it as a concept. Half-life simply means how long it takes for half the medicine to be gone from your system. But before we go on to why half-life is important, we need to look at how the medicine works. It works by inhibiting replication. Different antivirals do this in different ways but this is the outcome - they can't replicate. Viruses, which are not living organisms, just strands of DNA/RNA with a hard outer shell - they don't even qualify as being a single-celled organism. Anyway, they inject themselves into host cells and hijack the replication system, encoding themselves into your DNA and that's how they replicate. Antivirals stop this process but they only work for as long as the drug is in the system. I'm not sure what the threshold is for how much is necessary to have in the system for it to work. Could be 500 mg, could be 5 mg, I don't know. But think of it like this. We know there are thresholds for something to work. We know that underdosing an antibiotic will not kill the bacteria you are treating. The same applies to supplements. If you take 5mg of Vitamin C a day, it's not likely going to do anything but waste the time it takes to take the capsule and your money buying the bottle. There's no effect until you reach a minimum amount of vitamin C a day. So now we get back to half-life. You want to keep enough of the drug in the system to maintain a workable dosage in the body. In NIDS, they want to keep a higher amount to ensure it's inhibiting replication. Here's what I think *might* be going on DAN. Because the half-life is about 4 hours, they may be assuming that every 8 hours is sufficient, they aren't concerned by the minimum threshold amount for it to work. They just want you to take it at about the time the drug is almost completely out of the system. NIDS isn't taking that chance. It exponentially increases the amount of drug in the system so that by the time you go to bed, you have enough in the system to make it through the night without *running out.* (Now, keep in mind that I said I don't know the mechanics of half-life. So I say exponentially but I don't truly know that that happens or the mechanics of it. It might not be exponentially increasing the amount of drugs you have in your system, just like it does't exponentially decrease.) With DAN, you are taking it once in the morning to get you through the day and then once in the evening to get you through the night. Now, in my mind, if the life of a drug is approximately 8 hours (could be more, could be less because remember the above exponential problems we have but we are just going to assume 8 for the purpose of trying to explain). There are 24 hours in the day. Taking it twice a day only covers 16 with a possible extension of maybe 4 hours but I find it hard to believe that it will cover a full 24 hours). In 3 times a day, you have overlapped dosage before the dose runs out, so there is more in the system and this extends the length of time it's going to be in the system, hopefully covering the full 24 hours. Now I could be *totally* wrong in my understanding of this. I do not claim to have the answers. It's just my understanding and my working my way around the information I understand. So how does this affect viral mutation? Simple. Viruses mutate. When you allow replication to restart, that gives them an opportunity to mutate because that's when mutation occurs - replication. The same is true of anything. The cells in your body don't just mutate as they are in your body all whole and complete and doing their job, they mutate during replication. The same is true of bacteria and the overuse of antibiotics. By dosing 2x a day, you are leaving a gaping window of opportunity for replication.Here's the thing about mutations. Everything mutates, viruses, bacteria, cells, DNA, *everything.* New flu strains come up every year, babies are born with genetic defects, etc. Viruses aren't actively thinking " I need to mutate to form a resistance to a drug. " They just mutate. And because of the specificity of how antivirals replicate, they can mutate themselves into drug resistance. Antivirals can work simply by changing one little tiny protein that disrupts their current method of replication. One mutation that doesn't involve that protein and it's resistant because antivirals are *sooooo* specific. Any tiny mutation could lead to resistance. And the less complex the thing, the more significant the mutations can be. This is why you don't see babies born with 6 toes every single day, in every single hospital, we are too complex and mutations within us aren't always so major or even remotely significant. There isn't much info on antivirals and mutation with autism, of course. Where you tend to find the information on viral mutation with antiviral use is in the places where it is life threatening, namely - AIDS and other immunocompromised illnesses that have any potential to be fatal. Most of the research done in this area is on AIDS patients. Typically, AIDS patients find that the antivirals don't work - not because they are dosed wrong, but because as patients, they aren't taking it as directed. They are skipping doses. Of course, that's not the only reason, but it is major reason and a very important reminder that one must take these drugs appropriately if they are expected to work. Is DAN right in 2x a day, is it sufficient? I can't say. I can only tell you that this is how I've worked it out in my mind and I tend to think that 2x a day is generally not sufficient. Since there are kids getting benefit from it at 2x a day is simply more proof that we just don't know. They Rx antivirals as low as 1 time a day for some illnesses. So the answer is really still a mystery to me no matter how I work it out trying to apply logic when I really don't know all the facts. But this is the conclusion I came to. I have no idea if that helped or not. And if anyone has anything to add or correct or clarify, hop on pop! Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com/~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ On Jan 27, 2011, at 3:54 AM, Toni Marie Lombardo wrote: Not sure. Maybe Cheryl will see this. I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > > > > > > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using > > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular > > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering. > > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko. > > Thanks, > > judy > > > > > > > > -- > Toni > > ------ > Mind like a steel trap... > Rusty and illegal in 37 states. > -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 or to be more specific:http://gryffins-tail.blogspot.com/2011/01/antiviral-therapy-101.html Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~~@Gryffins_Tail~ Here you go! :~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 10:09:46 PMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS New to the anti viral thing.............Who what when where and why are people doing anti virals? Help and advice please. Are these children at risk for viruses? Please help Always Call Christie Gravatt We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience! I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > >> >> > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using> > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular> > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering.> > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko.> > Thanks,> > judy> > > >> > > > -- > Toni> > ------> Mind like a steel trap...> Rusty and illegal in 37 states.> -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 300's?Does it look like this 1:360? Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~~@Gryffins_Tail~ On Jan 27, 2011, at 7:15 PM, Toni Marie Lombardo wrote: I think we are in the 3's. Tom's IgG for hhv6 came back at 1.60. That's not ridiculously high, is it? To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 9:56:02 PM Subject: Re: Re: NIDS I believe it can be stealth because otherwise Wakefield would never have found what he found and neither would the 5 others that replicated his study. Wakefield's entire study can be found on my blog if you want to read it. Just don't ask me what post it's under, I can't remember! Lol! We treated with TF-RMM and will be doing high dose Vitamin A eventually. I haven't really focused on MMR because our bigger issue was HHV6 and EBV. Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ Yes very easy to understand. Thanks Cheryl - I think the unique perspective you bring is the collection of perspective. Do you have some info on dealing with high rubella titers? What is the cause - can it be stealth? Do folks do the High Vitamin A for Rubella as well?Kay To: mb12 valtrex Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 10:50:01 AMSubject: Re: Re: NIDS Thanks Cheryl. :-) Very readable, to me :-) My explanation for this is long, bear with me. I can't give a full-blown scientific explanation but I can try to explain it in layman's terms as I understand it. Now, keep in mind that this is all from Dr. Goldberg. I don't know why DAN *doesn't* feel the same way so I have no way of even guessing if they may be wrong, right, or somewhere in the middle. My own DAN even thinks that 2x is usually sufficient with no viral mutation but is not opposed to 3x a day and does see benefit. But I can guess why they *might* think 2x a day is fine, and that is half-life, which is the basis for all medicine dosage. The half-life of Valtrex is approximately 4 hours (some studies say more, some say less so 4 is about what I call the average, again, no science involved in my conclusion on that). And also understand that when looking at half-life, the amount of drug in the system doesn't simply drop in equal number by hour. You don't start off taking 1000 mg and in 2 hours you have 500 mg in the system and in 3 hours you have 250 mg. And this is probably why there is differentiation in results of half-life, there are other factors that come into play. Again, I'm not a scientist and I have no idea how half-life really works as a function. I only understand it as a concept. Half-life simply means how long it takes for half the medicine to be gone from your system. But before we go on to why half-life is important, we need to look at how the medicine works. It works by inhibiting replication. Different antivirals do this in different ways but this is the outcome - they can't replicate. Viruses, which are not living organisms, just strands of DNA/RNA with a hard outer shell - they don't even qualify as being a single-celled organism. Anyway, they inject themselves into host cells and hijack the replication system, encoding themselves into your DNA and that's how they replicate. Antivirals stop this process but they only work for as long as the drug is in the system. I'm not sure what the threshold is for how much is necessary to have in the system for it to work. Could be 500 mg, could be 5 mg, I don't know. But think of it like this. We know there are thresholds for something to work. We know that underdosing an antibiotic will not kill the bacteria you are treating. The same applies to supplements. If you take 5mg of Vitamin C a day, it's not likely going to do anything but waste the time it takes to take the capsule and your money buying the bottle. There's no effect until you reach a minimum amount of vitamin C a day. So now we get back to half-life. You want to keep enough of the drug in the system to maintain a workable dosage in the body. In NIDS, they want to keep a higher amount to ensure it's inhibiting replication. Here's what I think *might* be going on DAN. Because the half-life is about 4 hours, they may be assuming that every 8 hours is sufficient, they aren't concerned by the minimum threshold amount for it to work. They just want you to take it at about the time the drug is almost completely out of the system. NIDS isn't taking that chance. It exponentially increases the amount of drug in the system so that by the time you go to bed, you have enough in the system to make it through the night without *running out.* (Now, keep in mind that I said I don't know the mechanics of half-life. So I say exponentially but I don't truly know that that happens or the mechanics of it. It might not be exponentially increasing the amount of drugs you have in your system, just like it does't exponentially decrease.) With DAN, you are taking it once in the morning to get you through the day and then once in the evening to get you through the night. Now, in my mind, if the life of a drug is approximately 8 hours (could be more, could be less because remember the above exponential problems we have but we are just going to assume 8 for the purpose of trying to explain). There are 24 hours in the day. Taking it twice a day only covers 16 with a possible extension of maybe 4 hours but I find it hard to believe that it will cover a full 24 hours). In 3 times a day, you have overlapped dosage before the dose runs out, so there is more in the system and this extends the length of time it's going to be in the system, hopefully covering the full 24 hours. Now I could be *totally* wrong in my understanding of this. I do not claim to have the answers. It's just my understanding and my working my way around the information I understand. So how does this affect viral mutation? Simple. Viruses mutate. When you allow replication to restart, that gives them an opportunity to mutate because that's when mutation occurs - replication. The same is true of anything. The cells in your body don't just mutate as they are in your body all whole and complete and doing their job, they mutate during replication. The same is true of bacteria and the overuse of antibiotics. By dosing 2x a day, you are leaving a gaping window of opportunity for replication.Here's the thing about mutations. Everything mutates, viruses, bacteria, cells, DNA, *everything.* New flu strains come up every year, babies are born with genetic defects, etc. Viruses aren't actively thinking "I need to mutate to form a resistance to a drug." They just mutate. And because of the specificity of how antivirals replicate, they can mutate themselves into drug resistance. Antivirals can work simply by changing one little tiny protein that disrupts their current method of replication. One mutation that doesn't involve that protein and it's resistant because antivirals are *sooooo* specific. Any tiny mutation could lead to resistance. And the less complex the thing, the more significant the mutations can be. This is why you don't see babies born with 6 toes every single day, in every single hospital, we are too complex and mutations within us aren't always so major or even remotely significant. There isn't much info on antivirals and mutation with autism, of course. Where you tend to find the information on viral mutation with antiviral use is in the places where it is life threatening, namely - AIDS and other immunocompromised illnesses that have any potential to be fatal. Most of the research done in this area is on AIDS patients. Typically, AIDS patients find that the antivirals don't work - not because they are dosed wrong, but because as patients, they aren't taking it as directed. They are skipping doses. Of course, that's not the only reason, but it is major reason and a very important reminder that one must take these drugs appropriately if they are expected to work. Is DAN right in 2x a day, is it sufficient? I can't say. I can only tell you that this is how I've worked it out in my mind and I tend to think that 2x a day is generally not sufficient. Since there are kids getting benefit from it at 2x a day is simply more proof that we just don't know. They Rx antivirals as low as 1 time a day for some illnesses. So the answer is really still a mystery to me no matter how I work it out trying to apply logic when I really don't know all the facts. But this is the conclusion I came to. I have no idea if that helped or not. And if anyone has anything to add or correct or clarify, hop on pop! Cheryl ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com/~ ~@Gryffins_Tail~ On Jan 27, 2011, at 3:54 AM, Toni Marie Lombardo wrote: Not sure. Maybe Cheryl will see this. I've heard it before but just wondering why it is assumed the virus mutates if the dosage isn't high enough? NeuroSensory Center uses low dose anti-virals and there are many singing the praises of Dr. Kendall . > > > > > > > Is the basic protocol for this to support the immune system, by using > > antibiotics, antifungals and antivirals? You can do this then with a regular > > DAN doctor then if you have them give you the prescriptions? Just wondering. > > I can't follow another protocol right now, I am following 2, DAN and Yasko. > > Thanks, > > judy > > > > > > > > -- > Toni > > ------ > Mind like a steel trap... > Rusty and illegal in 37 states. > -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. -- Toni------Mind like a steel trap...Rusty and illegal in 37 states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I keep asking questions only to get this clearer in my head. Valtrex (for genital herpes-HSV2) apparently can be prescribed for once a day dosing. Presumably that does something to stop the virus from replicating. It is also my understanding that valtrex doesn't work (as in stopping the replication of virus) unless the virus is active (but that sort of thinking is sort of contrary to the once a day dosing). My understanding also is that valtrex and/or acyclovir work for HSV1 and HSV2 but not for HHV6 and maybe or maybe not for other herpes viruses. I wonder if herpes viruses in our kids are different or respond differently than how valtrex and acyclovir work for HSV1 and HSV2 in typical people. My son's HSV1 and HSV2 are negative but his HHV6 is high. We haven't had gains, only worse behavior on 3x/day dosing for 40 days. > > Acyclovir is not the same drug as Valtrex. And while I know that The Neurosensory Center doesn't follow standard DAN, I used DAN as a counter to NIDS because they are the most well known but the idea is still the same with any lower dosing protocol. > > Valacyclovir is generic for Valtrex. Acyclovir is generic for Zovirax. Zovirax actually needs to be dosed *more* often than Valtrex because the half life is even shorter. Even though a DAN might still dose less often than Dr. G, they generally all agree that you dose more often than Valtrex. Dr. G would dose 5x a day and maybe cut down to 4 way down the road, whereas a DAN is probably going to go up to 3 or 4x a day, depending on how often they dose Valtrex. > > And here's the thing about the lower dosing. It doesn't mean it isn't going to work to produce gains because you are still lessening the load on the immune system while it's working. You may see great results but there's a much greater risk of viral mutation. > > My biggest fear with this super low dose that the Neurosensory Center is using is that people will think they can call that giving antivirals a trial. It's not. Odds are pretty good that someone that gets no results from them on antivirals would see fantastic results with different dosing and yet won't do it because they think they've been there and done that. I can't tell you how many people have passed through this list doing exactly that, whether it's with TNC or DAN or whatever. > > There's a lot involved in looking at antivrals and I don't know who's right. Maybe it's TNC, maybe it's DAN or maybe it's NIDS or maybe it's no one. Maybe the whole concept of stealth viruses is completely bogus. I dunno. I really can only base my opinion on what has worked so well for my son. What I think is improper use doesn't stop it from working for others, as others will certainly attest. In the grand scheme of things, my opinion really doesn't mean squat. > > I know nothing about Amantadine so I can't even begin to comment there. > > Cheryl > ~http://www.gryffins-tail.blogspot.com~ > ~@Gryffins_Tail~ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Thank you Cheryl. I really appreciate your reply! > > > I keep asking questions only to get this clearer in my head. Valtrex (for genital herpes-HSV2) apparently can be prescribed for once a day dosing. Presumably that does something to stop the virus from replicating. > > Yes. I'm not sure how. That was one of the things that I mentioned before (some treatments only require 1x a day dosing)- how this works, I just don't know. It is used in once a day dosing, I think, even in chicken pox, and this *may* come from the difference between treating a *stealth* virus vs. a latent or active virus. I've often wondered if it's possible that because the dosages are higher (they're usually taking up to 3 grams) in those using it once a day, that maybe the half-life is different? But that doesn't really seem sound to me, it seems like the half-life would be the half-life not matter what. So I don't know and it is something I've been trying to figure out. > > > It is also my understanding that valtrex doesn't work (as in stopping the replication of virus) unless the virus is active (but that sort of thinking is sort of contrary to the once a day dosing). > > Not true. Well, it is and it isn't. I've heard the argument before and I don't buy it because we don't know enough about *stealth* virus activity. I can't provide a really strong argument because I don't have that kind of scientific knowledge, I can only use my own observations on why I think it's not true. Latent just means it's there, you're a carrier - so this is where you get the idea that it's not doing anything unless it's active. It is used prophylactically in this case, meaning it's going to prevent reactivation because it stops replication, thereby preventing reactivation. > > For example, take this situation in person A: Herpes is latent. It decides to become active again. It can't because there is an antiviral blocking it's replication process. No active herpes. So phooey on the idea that it's not doing anything unless there is an active infection - it's being used as a prophylactic. > > But it doesn't take into account person B: Herpes is stealth. It's doing little things, the immune system is doing what it can to suppress it so it's not actively causing genital warts or whatever strain the herpes virus is. But it's wreaking havoc elsewhere. Pockets of it are in the brain causing neuro issues, etc. Antivirals work to suppress *stealth* activity. > > I'm not a doctor, I have no idea if this is verifiable fact. But what is verifiable is that people like my son, who don't have an " active " infection are being helped because they are treating the " stealth " virus. The virus *is* doing something and the antivirals *are* helping - otherwise we wouldn't see regression every time he stops taking them. > > So the idea that it's not doing anything is simply not true. This idea of antivirals is not simply an autism thing, it's used CFS (which is where it originated, I think) and fibromyalgia and many other areas. If it didn't do anything unless it was active, AIDS patients wouldn't be taking antivirals daily. > > Now, because I don't have the background, I can't tell you I'm right. I could be waaay off the mark. I look at it like this, though: If you can't apply the actual medical logic (because you don't have it, like me), you have to apply the only logic you have available and right now. My logic tells me that that any argument that says antivirals isn't doing anything unless it's an active infection is just poop in a toilet. Flush that sucker away. > > > My understanding also is that valtrex and/or acyclovir work for HSV1 and HSV2 but not for HHV6 and maybe or maybe not for other herpes viruses. > > Also not true. Only sort of true. Valtrex works best against the STD strains, yes. But it does work for HHV6 - just not as effectively as other drugs, we have to take safety into consideration. > > > I wonder if herpes viruses in our kids are different or respond differently than how valtrex and acyclovir work for HSV1 and HSV2 in typical people. My son's HSV1 and HSV2 are negative but his HHV6 is high. > > I don't think so. I think it's mostly that we don't understand *stealth* virus enough. > > > We haven't had gains, only worse behavior on 3x/day dosing for 40 days. > > Maybe switch antivirals? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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