Re: how does she always know?

[Guest guest]

I've had the exact same experience. It's creepy.

>

> Has anyone else noticed a pattern that whenever you make a jump in a positive

direction for yourself or even a small one, somehow your nada seems to know and

at that moment has a crisis of some kind? This has happened so many times in

my life that it is just ridiculous. I had an extreme version of this when I

made a very sudden jump in my meditation practice and my father (NPD) who I'd

been NC with for two decades tracked me down. This weirds me out to say the

least.

>

> Thoughts?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On the other side of the spectrum, I also found that if I had a true

problem or crisis in my life, Nada would either ignore it, or make it

all about her. Sadly, it seems nada s cannot let anyone else be the

focus of attention for a moment. Not even, as we all know so very

painfully, their own children.

I can recall a number of times when a " moment " for me ended up being

ruined or stolen by Nada. Examples, I came into some unexpected money

while in the Navy. I came home for the weekend, intent, I must admit,

on doing a little canoodling with my main squeeze. On Saturday morning,

happened to mention, in the context of wow, look what happened to me,

Mom, my good fortune. It took less than 30 seconds for her to put on a

mournful demeanor and hit me up for money with a sob story.

I ended up with enough for a couple burgers, and the trip back to base.

Not much in the way of a romantic weekend with my sweety. This came

just a few months after I came in after boot camp. I had sent my money

home, and told nada, ( young fool that I was ) if she had a short week,

she could use a little bit of it. I came home after 9 weeks, and was

dead broke. Not a penny except what was in my pocket. She had wiped

out every paycheck I had gotten for 2 months.

This not only kept me from a romantic encounter with my sweety, who was

away at college, ( bear in mind, I was 19, a sailor, and had not seen my

girl in 2 MONTHS!) I had to get an emergency loan from the Red Cross to

make it to my next duty station.

I quickly learned never EVER to let nada know if I had a penny to my

name that was not already spent.

On the crisis side, when I was out of work, drawing an unemployment

check, trying to make a mortgage and feed 4 kids, she came in for a

visit. On the morning she was about to leave, while I was at the table

trying to figure out how thin I could spread my money, she informed me

she did not have the money to get back home and needed $ 100 from me to

get home. I was flabbergasted. I ranted for about 5 minutes about my

dire situation, trying to tell her common decency would dictate you

never put anyone in such a position, if you were going to need money to

get home you call first and ask.

At the end of my rant, she said, in a somewhat hurt voice, " So you re

not going to give me the money? "

There is just something about nada s that prevents them from feeling the

pain, or sharing the joy, of their children. It is truly sad, .

I think most of us, even if we are not formally NC or LC, withdraw from

them to the point we may as well be. We do not survive them otherwise.

Doug

>

> Has anyone else noticed a pattern that whenever you make a jump in a

positive direction for yourself or even a small one, somehow your nada

seems to know and at that moment has a crisis of some kind? This has

happened so many times in my life that it is just ridiculous. I had an

extreme version of this when I made a very sudden jump in my meditation

practice and my father (NPD) who I'd been NC with for two decades

tracked me down. This weirds me out to say the least.

>

> Thoughts?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Doug, what entitlement your nada had! And you were so kind and generous with

her - any sane mother would have appreciated that and thanked you for what you

gave, not set you up to be obliged to give *more*. This all hits many resonant

chords for me too - I've tried to hide what successes I've had because my nada

has felt I owed her a piece of it, whatever it was. And like you say our

failures and struggles are irrelevant to them outside of how it might

inconvenience giving to them. At this point I'm in contact but I'm very very

very shielded and careful about so many things maybe I'll make up a new one, SC

for shielded contact.

> >

> > Has anyone else noticed a pattern that whenever you make a jump in a

> positive direction for yourself or even a small one, somehow your nada

> seems to know and at that moment has a crisis of some kind? This has

> happened so many times in my life that it is just ridiculous. I had an

> extreme version of this when I made a very sudden jump in my meditation

> practice and my father (NPD) who I'd been NC with for two decades

> tracked me down. This weirds me out to say the least.

> >

> > Thoughts?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

From what you describe, I think maybe your nada was profoundly narcissistic and

viewed you as her caretaker, not as her child that she was supposed to nurture.

The author of the article I posted today considers that in the *extreme abuse*

category: expecting the child to serve the parent's needs instead of the other

way around.

It really does seem to boil down to an inability on the part of the Cluster B

individual to respect other people's humanity, particularly the inability to

respect their own child's humanity. Other people are simply objects to the pd

person that have to be manipulated/tricked/conned into giving the pd individual

what he or she wants, then discarded when they are no longer useful.

It makes me wonder. It seems to me that a lot of our nadas might have more

narcissistic pd and antisocial pd traits than bpd traits.

The pathological self-absorption, lack of empathy, lack of remorse, seeming lack

of a conscience, the need to degrade, humiliate and shame the child, and the

feeling of entitlement to use the child in any way the pd person wants

(sexually, financially, emotionally) seems more npd/aspd to me, whereas the

lightning-fast mood changes, hair-trigger temper, transient psychotic breaks,

easily stressed/easily overwhelmed stuff: the behaviors revolving around faulty

emotional cognition and emotional dysregulation, seem more bpd to me.

The bottom line: it seems to me that quite a few of us here were left in the

care of someone who was far too mentally ill to be raising children, and its

just pure luck that we survived at all.

-Annie

> >

> > Has anyone else noticed a pattern that whenever you make a jump in a

> positive direction for yourself or even a small one, somehow your nada

> seems to know and at that moment has a crisis of some kind? This has

> happened so many times in my life that it is just ridiculous. I had an

> extreme version of this when I made a very sudden jump in my meditation

> practice and my father (NPD) who I'd been NC with for two decades

> tracked me down. This weirds me out to say the least.

> >

> > Thoughts?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It seems to be a cosmic reaction. You'd think that if you've been through all

this crap, and you're finally getting a clue and struggling to make strides

toward a decent life for yourself, God/Life/the Universe *might* reach down and

help you out, but no.

Just when it looked like, just when it looked like, just when it looked like, my

life could possibly get better and healthier for me, along came my handicapped

and mentally ill aunt and cousin, so the burdens could get worse than ever

before and things just basically descend into the shitter for more and more

years on end.

It's cosmic, I'm telling ya.

--.

[Guest guest]

I hear ya , a cosmic reaction is often what it feels like. And Karla yes

it is super creepy. Sometimes I wonder if it's like that old Norse (?) view of

the world where life is a tapestry with threads. We're born really tied up into

these situations and as we work to break free it pulls on the threads in such a

way as to try to pull us back into the spot we were. Or maybe these threads

are like rubber bands and the harder we pull away, the more they pull back until

someone pulls hard enough away that it snaps. I look at how much strength and

often a high price is involved in people going NC on this list and I think that

must be what it takes to snap that rubber band.

I've spent a lot of time trying to find an answer to these questions, but it's

one of those things like the afterlife - you'll never know for sure and it's a

matter of belief. I just wanted to see if you guys noticed this too or whether

my nada was finally driving me round the bend into paranoia. , your

situation with aunt and cousin is so difficult and has always reminded me of

this. I too have a backup nada in place - it's like Fate wanted to make damn

sure I wasn't getting out of this one easy. But who is Fate? I don't buy the

idea of a punishing God and bad karma playing out seems a bit of a copout.

Guess that's enough philosophizing for now.

>

> It seems to be a cosmic reaction. You'd think that if you've been through all

this crap, and you're finally getting a clue and struggling to make strides

toward a decent life for yourself, God/Life/the Universe *might* reach down and

help you out, but no.

>

> Just when it looked like, just when it looked like, just when it looked like,

my life could possibly get better and healthier for me, along came my

handicapped and mentally ill aunt and cousin, so the burdens could get worse

than ever before and things just basically descend into the shitter for more and

more years on end.

>

> It's cosmic, I'm telling ya.

>

> --.

>

[Guest guest]

Wow. No shit?

Doug

>

>

> The bottom line: it seems to me that quite a few of us here were left

in the care of someone who was far too mentally ill to be raising

children, and its just pure luck that we survived at all.

>

> -Annie

>

>

[Guest guest]

That statement was rather like preaching to the choir, wasn't it?

Lol!

-Annie

> >

> >

> > The bottom line: it seems to me that quite a few of us here were left

> in the care of someone who was far too mentally ill to be raising

> children, and its just pure luck that we survived at all.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I can so relate to this! It just happened today.

My DH, after a long search and after a difficult year with serious health

issues, has finally found a good job and will start soon. Yesterday evening we

gave the good news to friends and family and, guess what, Nada TODAY just called

me to inform me that her doctor is 'very worried' and she needs to be

hospitalized again. And, once again, the attention is on her. I asked if she

was taking all her medications: she told me that she had to stop taking a

specific pill because 'it was giving her a headache'... So, she stopped her

medications and now she needs to go to the hospital.

I can never trust if it is a real medical emergency or it is her usual

'attention-seeking' behaviour. So infuriating.

>

> Has anyone else noticed a pattern that whenever you make a jump in a positive

direction for yourself or even a small one, somehow your nada seems to know and

at that moment has a crisis of some kind? This has happened so many times in

my life that it is just ridiculous. I had an extreme version of this when I

made a very sudden jump in my meditation practice and my father (NPD) who I'd

been NC with for two decades tracked me down. This weirds me out to say the

least.

>

> Thoughts?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

After so many years of going it alone, of not having anyone seem to

understand the living hell that was our lives, it is really hard to make

the mind shift that we really are part of a group of folks who " get

it " .

Doug

> > >

> > >

> > > The bottom line: it seems to me that quite a few of us here were

left

> > in the care of someone who was far too mentally ill to be raising

> > children, and its just pure luck that we survived at all.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Congrats to your husband - getting a job is great news for ANYBODY right now.

Re: Nadas and their uncanny timing - it does seem that either Nada is doing this

stuff on purpose (while maintaining an innocent-looking facade of victimhood),

or the universe is just determined to hand us regularly scheduled loads of crap.

I used to be able to count on my Nada's calling me for a cash infusion any time

I'd received a bonus or was doing well enough financially to be thinking of

taking a vacation or buying myself something nice (for a change). I don't know

if it was just that my rate of earning and her rate of spending were in sync, or

what. Maybe there's an algorithm we could use to see what the real correlation

is. And it does seem that any time we have things on track at home, or have a

block of time available for a trip, I get a call from her about the crisis du

jour. I think maybe she tracks school vacations and holidays, and comes up with

'needs' that have to be met because she knows I don't have a good excuse. At

this point I'm convinced it's more Nada than Universe.

> >

> > Has anyone else noticed a pattern that whenever you make a jump in a

positive direction for yourself or even a small one, somehow your nada seems to

know and at that moment has a crisis of some kind? This has happened so many

times in my life that it is just ridiculous. I had an extreme version of this

when I made a very sudden jump in my meditation practice and my father (NPD) who

I'd been NC with for two decades tracked me down. This weirds me out to say

the least.

> >

> > Thoughts?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Oh that does sound familiar - the timing is always amazing. It's like these

nada's sense that there is a bubble of happy energy somewhere and they want a

piece, so they try to get it by having a crisis. I hope you can still keep your

focus on the truly good news that your husband has got his great new job and is

doing well. I say congratulations to you!

> >

> > Has anyone else noticed a pattern that whenever you make a jump in a

positive direction for yourself or even a small one, somehow your nada seems to

know and at that moment has a crisis of some kind? This has happened so many

times in my life that it is just ridiculous. I had an extreme version of this

when I made a very sudden jump in my meditation practice and my father (NPD) who

I'd been NC with for two decades tracked me down. This weirds me out to say

the least.

> >

> > Thoughts?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Some schools of thought hold that if you are having a problem over and over, it

is because of something you haven't mastered yet and the Universe is bringing it

to you to challenge you with it over and over until you learn whatever it was

you were supposed to learn and do whatever it was you were supposed to do.

It may be that I just don't know that what I want to do with my life really is

worthwhile and that it's OK to put my foot down, say no, and do what I want

instead. I even got a horoscope that says if I don't learn to do this now, this

will show up again in a few years and be even worse.

I want to know, what could be worse than the way things are now? No, maybe I

don't want to know.

So I have this lady we hired to help out, and every Wednesday it's, " Do you want

to take to visit Ellen? Do you want me to take to visit Jean

Ellen?? " And I just want to scream, NO, I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE JEAN TO VISIT

JEAN ELLEN! She takes forever to walk anywhere, it takes forever and a day,

Ellen is no peach to be around, and then of course there is some errand to

run on the way back, and then she wants to go out to eat, etc. etc. Which might

not be so bad, except that then we get back to the assisted living home at 6 or

so...and there's the checkbook waiting to be balanced and the bills waiting to

be paid, which take longer than they need to because she wants to sign all her

checks (even though she's too senile to understand much of what she's looking

at.)

I don't want to do all this. But then it's, " They think you don't care about

them, " while meanwhile on my one day off, there's the housework and the food

shopping and making and cleaning up I didn't get to, plus the time in the gym I

still need to do because I'm grossly overweight and have high cholesterol.

Where is the time for what I want to do? Even at night my husband sits down to

watch a movie, but I am sitting there with our checkbook and my hands full of

bills and paperwork. But if I don't do this I'm abandoning family who are

handicapped and helpless and can't help it that they're mentally ill (and who

are doing better now than they have been in years, so I can't even blame bad

behavior anymore.)

When is it OK to turn them over to someone else and do what I want to do and

when is it not OK? How much time can I reasonably reserve for myself?

Especially since I only want it to write a novel and we KNOW how much likelihood

that has of ever getting published, making any money, or being anything

resembling a real career at all (zero).

*sigh*

--.

[Guest guest]

- Sit down, hon. Put your feet up. Here goes...

" When is it time to turn them over to someone else? " How about right now?

Yesterday? Last month?

If the aide can be trusted to take to visit Ellen, then by all means

let her. Use that time to go to the gym. If they have a problem, they can call

you on your cell phone or have you paged. If she's not competent to take Jean

out, then that's unfortunate. But it doesn't mean you have to go, or feel

guilty about not going.

You have been sounding very upset, angry, desperate, and hopeless ever since you

started writing about them. This isn't getting any better for you, is it? And

I don't think it matters to either of them, as long as they're cared for by

somebody. It does not have to be you. Please, PLEASE delegate some of this

stuff before it destroys you.

If you got hit by a bus TODAY, who would take over these chores? Why can't

those same people take over the chores NOW?

You could remain the " CEO " if you like - being sure that the aides or nursing

home workers aren't abusing your relatives. You could visit every month for ONE

HOUR to assess their physical well-being, and know that the home has your phone

number for emergencies. You can even continue to write out the checks - but

make arrangements with the bank so you can do it from home, sign the damned

things, and send them out. She'll never notice if she's that senile. As long

as her bills get paid and her money isn't squandered, who cares whether she gets

to sign the checks? Not the bank. Not the power company. Not you. And not

her, if there's something else to take her dwindling attention (TV? pot holders?

bingo?). You can use a program like Quicken to keep track of her money and

print out a report for her if you think she can read and understand it. If

ANYBODY gives you a hard time or a guilt trip about this part, hand them the

forms to become her caretaker and let THEM do it.

You can retain your " fiduciary duty " to handle their money honestly and

competently, while declining to perform the hands-on care. If it's all you can

manage, then IT'S ALL YOU CAN MANAGE. Being a grownup with a life of your own

is not something you have to apologize for, whether you're a budding novelist or

an anonymous middle-aged woman who wants to take a nap once in a while. Do what

you can manage, let paid staff handle the rest, and give yourself a break. If

assisted living can't handle them, they'll have to move on into a nursing home.

Final thought - if you were a man, do you think for ONE MINUTE anybody would

expect you to give everything up and take care of them? No chance, sister.

You're getting dumped on because it's convenient for everybody else to have you

carry the load. It's time to either make the other relatives (or whoever it is

that's sending you guilt)either step up or shut up. And by the way, if you're

working all day and your husband has time to sit down and watch a movie at

night, he can bloody well write out some checks during the commercials or fold

laundry while he watches, so you both get a break at the end of the day.

>

> Some schools of thought hold that if you are having a problem over and over,

it is because of something you haven't mastered yet and the Universe is bringing

it to you to challenge you with it over and over until you learn whatever it was

you were supposed to learn and do whatever it was you were supposed to do.

>

> It may be that I just don't know that what I want to do with my life really is

worthwhile and that it's OK to put my foot down, say no, and do what I want

instead. I even got a horoscope that says if I don't learn to do this now, this

will show up again in a few years and be even worse.

>

> I want to know, what could be worse than the way things are now? No, maybe I

don't want to know.

>

> So I have this lady we hired to help out, and every Wednesday it's, " Do you

want to take to visit Ellen? Do you want me to take to visit

Ellen?? " And I just want to scream, NO, I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE JEAN TO

VISIT JEAN ELLEN! She takes forever to walk anywhere, it takes forever and a

day, Ellen is no peach to be around, and then of course there is some

errand to run on the way back, and then she wants to go out to eat, etc. etc.

Which might not be so bad, except that then we get back to the assisted living

home at 6 or so...and there's the checkbook waiting to be balanced and the bills

waiting to be paid, which take longer than they need to because she wants to

sign all her checks (even though she's too senile to understand much of what

she's looking at.)

>

> I don't want to do all this. But then it's, " They think you don't care about

them, " while meanwhile on my one day off, there's the housework and the food

shopping and making and cleaning up I didn't get to, plus the time in the gym I

still need to do because I'm grossly overweight and have high cholesterol.

Where is the time for what I want to do? Even at night my husband sits down to

watch a movie, but I am sitting there with our checkbook and my hands full of

bills and paperwork. But if I don't do this I'm abandoning family who are

handicapped and helpless and can't help it that they're mentally ill (and who

are doing better now than they have been in years, so I can't even blame bad

behavior anymore.)

>

> When is it OK to turn them over to someone else and do what I want to do and

when is it not OK? How much time can I reasonably reserve for myself?

Especially since I only want it to write a novel and we KNOW how much likelihood

that has of ever getting published, making any money, or being anything

resembling a real career at all (zero).

>

> *sigh*

>

> --.

>

[Guest guest]

Is there a way that you can delegate just one of the many tasks, such as,

perhaps, hiring an accounting firm or personal manager to take care of their

finances from now on?

Or if you want to retain control of their finances, go ahead and ask the

part-time care-giver you've already hired to take her/them visiting and shopping

so you don't have to do that every Wednesday.

If the caregiver is already offering to do that, I'd say take her up on that

offer!

Maybe cutting back on just one of the tasks will help you feel like you're not

quite as trapped. Truly, I understand how depressing that can be; my Sister

went through that with our nada.

-Annie

>

> Some schools of thought hold that if you are having a problem over and over,

it is because of something you haven't mastered yet and the Universe is bringing

it to you to challenge you with it over and over until you learn whatever it was

you were supposed to learn and do whatever it was you were supposed to do.

>

> It may be that I just don't know that what I want to do with my life really is

worthwhile and that it's OK to put my foot down, say no, and do what I want

instead. I even got a horoscope that says if I don't learn to do this now, this

will show up again in a few years and be even worse.

>

> I want to know, what could be worse than the way things are now? No, maybe I

don't want to know.

>

> So I have this lady we hired to help out, and every Wednesday it's, " Do you

want to take to visit Ellen? Do you want me to take to visit

Ellen?? " And I just want to scream, NO, I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE JEAN TO

VISIT JEAN ELLEN! She takes forever to walk anywhere, it takes forever and a

day, Ellen is no peach to be around, and then of course there is some

errand to run on the way back, and then she wants to go out to eat, etc. etc.

Which might not be so bad, except that then we get back to the assisted living

home at 6 or so...and there's the checkbook waiting to be balanced and the bills

waiting to be paid, which take longer than they need to because she wants to

sign all her checks (even though she's too senile to understand much of what

she's looking at.)

>

> I don't want to do all this. But then it's, " They think you don't care about

them, " while meanwhile on my one day off, there's the housework and the food

shopping and making and cleaning up I didn't get to, plus the time in the gym I

still need to do because I'm grossly overweight and have high cholesterol.

Where is the time for what I want to do? Even at night my husband sits down to

watch a movie, but I am sitting there with our checkbook and my hands full of

bills and paperwork. But if I don't do this I'm abandoning family who are

handicapped and helpless and can't help it that they're mentally ill (and who

are doing better now than they have been in years, so I can't even blame bad

behavior anymore.)

>

> When is it OK to turn them over to someone else and do what I want to do and

when is it not OK? How much time can I reasonably reserve for myself?

Especially since I only want it to write a novel and we KNOW how much likelihood

that has of ever getting published, making any money, or being anything

resembling a real career at all (zero).

>

> *sigh*

>

> --.

>

[Guest guest]

@ -

APPLAUSE!!! Standing OVATION!!!!!

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 5:14 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Is there a way that you can delegate just one of the many tasks, such as,

> perhaps, hiring an accounting firm or personal manager to take care of their

> finances from now on?

>

> Or if you want to retain control of their finances, go ahead and ask the

> part-time care-giver you've already hired to take her/them visiting and

> shopping so you don't have to do that every Wednesday.

> If the caregiver is already offering to do that, I'd say take her up on

> that offer!

>

> Maybe cutting back on just one of the tasks will help you feel like you're

> not quite as trapped. Truly, I understand how depressing that can be; my

> Sister went through that with our nada.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > Some schools of thought hold that if you are having a problem over and

> over, it is because of something you haven't mastered yet and the Universe

> is bringing it to you to challenge you with it over and over until you learn

> whatever it was you were supposed to learn and do whatever it was you were

> supposed to do.

> >

> > It may be that I just don't know that what I want to do with my life

> really is worthwhile and that it's OK to put my foot down, say no, and do

> what I want instead. I even got a horoscope that says if I don't learn to do

> this now, this will show up again in a few years and be even worse.

> >

> > I want to know, what could be worse than the way things are now? No,

> maybe I don't want to know.

> >

> > So I have this lady we hired to help out, and every Wednesday it's, " Do

> you want to take to visit Ellen? Do you want me to take to

> visit Ellen?? " And I just want to scream, NO, I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE

> JEAN TO VISIT JEAN ELLEN! She takes forever to walk anywhere, it takes

> forever and a day, Ellen is no peach to be around, and then of course

> there is some errand to run on the way back, and then she wants to go out to

> eat, etc. etc. Which might not be so bad, except that then we get back to

> the assisted living home at 6 or so...and there's the checkbook waiting to

> be balanced and the bills waiting to be paid, which take longer than they

> need to because she wants to sign all her checks (even though she's too

> senile to understand much of what she's looking at.)

> >

> > I don't want to do all this. But then it's, " They think you don't care

> about them, " while meanwhile on my one day off, there's the housework and

> the food shopping and making and cleaning up I didn't get to, plus the time

> in the gym I still need to do because I'm grossly overweight and have high

> cholesterol. Where is the time for what I want to do? Even at night my

> husband sits down to watch a movie, but I am sitting there with our

> checkbook and my hands full of bills and paperwork. But if I don't do this

> I'm abandoning family who are handicapped and helpless and can't help it

> that they're mentally ill (and who are doing better now than they have been

> in years, so I can't even blame bad behavior anymore.)

> >

> > When is it OK to turn them over to someone else and do what I want to do

> and when is it not OK? How much time can I reasonably reserve for myself?

> Especially since I only want it to write a novel and we KNOW how much

> likelihood that has of ever getting published, making any money, or being

> anything resembling a real career at all (zero).

> >

> > *sigh*

> >

> > --.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

They do seem to have a sixth sense about good times in our lives, don't

they?

I have always believed that there are some people who can't grasp that

concept that there's enough to go around - and when one person " gets " something

they become angry and upset because they truly believe that it means they

are going to be deprived.

Say there's three kids and two pieces of candy. Okay, one kid isn't going

to get candy if the other two take their pieces.

But in the big things in life - opportunities, love, success, happiness,

there's plenty to go around so my " getting " something doesn't mean you won't

" get " it. But bpds and like I said, I believe many others, don't grasp this

concept.

Anyway, I second the congrats!

In a message dated 9/27/2010 4:42:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

climberkayak@... writes:

Oh that does sound familiar - the timing is always amazing. It's like

these nada's sense that there is a bubble of happy energy somewhere and they

want a piece, so they try to get it by having a crisis. I hope you can still

keep your focus on the truly good news that your husband has got his great

new job and is doing well. I say congratulations to you!

[Guest guest]

Ahh...

I was in a horrible car accident 13 years ago. Hospitalized, multiple surgeries,

blah blah blah.

If you ask my mother about my accident- here's what she will say:

Oh, it was so horrible! I could barely function, watching my child lay in the

bed, with all those screws everywhere! And, then, when she came home, it was so

awful! She was in a bit of pain, but I could barely take watching her on the

crutches, with her leg in that brace! I had to drive her across town to the

doctors, and you know how much I hate driving. My nerves were always so bad,

etc...

Again, I keep thinking it's just MY mother. I have a certain amount of peace

knowing others have had the same experience.

> >

> > Has anyone else noticed a pattern that whenever you make a jump in a

> positive direction for yourself or even a small one, somehow your nada

> seems to know and at that moment has a crisis of some kind? This has

> happened so many times in my life that it is just ridiculous. I had an

> extreme version of this when I made a very sudden jump in my meditation

> practice and my father (NPD) who I'd been NC with for two decades

> tracked me down. This weirds me out to say the least.

> >

> > Thoughts?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , I hear ya. From one source of wisdom in my life I was told that one

of my life lessons was to learn to balance give and take in my life, to learn to

give when it is valued and needed...no pearls before swine. I haven't

completely worked that one out yet, but it sounds like you have a similar

mission.

If I'm remembering right you are backed into a corner with these relatives that

there literally is no one else and if you don't do this stuff they go to a

nursing home? If there's any other relatives by all means try to make them

take up the burden for a bit. My nada lives in a small town and briefly got

signed up for a free aid to come and clean her house ever so often. My nada

*hated* the " invasion of her privacy " and due to budget cuts the program got

canceled, she was pleased. I managed to feel the burden in my mind lift for all

of two weeks.

Anywho, I know you've probably turned over every rock looking for options here.

I hugely agree with though about your husband - that man needs to be

carrying more than his share right now. You deserve to have some time to feed

your soul too. Maybe three dedicated hours a week just for writing, just for

you.

>

> Some schools of thought hold that if you are having a problem over and over,

it is because of something you haven't mastered yet and the Universe is bringing

it to you to challenge you with it over and over until you learn whatever it was

you were supposed to learn and do whatever it was you were supposed to do.

>

> It may be that I just don't know that what I want to do with my life really is

worthwhile and that it's OK to put my foot down, say no, and do what I want

instead. I even got a horoscope that says if I don't learn to do this now, this

will show up again in a few years and be even worse.

>

> I want to know, what could be worse than the way things are now? No, maybe I

don't want to know.

>

> So I have this lady we hired to help out, and every Wednesday it's, " Do you

want to take to visit Ellen? Do you want me to take to visit

Ellen?? " And I just want to scream, NO, I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE JEAN TO

VISIT JEAN ELLEN! She takes forever to walk anywhere, it takes forever and a

day, Ellen is no peach to be around, and then of course there is some

errand to run on the way back, and then she wants to go out to eat, etc. etc.

Which might not be so bad, except that then we get back to the assisted living

home at 6 or so...and there's the checkbook waiting to be balanced and the bills

waiting to be paid, which take longer than they need to because she wants to

sign all her checks (even though she's too senile to understand much of what

she's looking at.)

>

> I don't want to do all this. But then it's, " They think you don't care about

them, " while meanwhile on my one day off, there's the housework and the food

shopping and making and cleaning up I didn't get to, plus the time in the gym I

still need to do because I'm grossly overweight and have high cholesterol.

Where is the time for what I want to do? Even at night my husband sits down to

watch a movie, but I am sitting there with our checkbook and my hands full of

bills and paperwork. But if I don't do this I'm abandoning family who are

handicapped and helpless and can't help it that they're mentally ill (and who

are doing better now than they have been in years, so I can't even blame bad

behavior anymore.)

>

> When is it OK to turn them over to someone else and do what I want to do and

when is it not OK? How much time can I reasonably reserve for myself?

Especially since I only want it to write a novel and we KNOW how much likelihood

that has of ever getting published, making any money, or being anything

resembling a real career at all (zero).

>

> *sigh*

>

> --.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, isn t it amazing that their lack of empathy is so utterly complete

that nothing, nothing, in our lives was ever about us. It was always

about how we affected them, how something really good, bad, interesting,

was about how they reacted to it.

My nada would hear of someone she barely knew, or had known decades

before, dying or becoming ill and it would just " tear her up, her

nerves were shot, she was just a wreck. " And then I was supposed to

comfort her and make her feel better because of her reaction to it.

My smart ass , sailor, I ve had enough of your BPB ( Borderline

Personality Bullshit ) mouth wanted to say, you want your nerves to be

ok, stop reading the fucking obits!

But you know, now that I think of it, not once in 53 years of my life

before she died, did nada ever just comfort and commiserate with me

about one of my problems or issues. Never.

Doug

> > >

> > > Has anyone else noticed a pattern that whenever you make a jump in

a

> > positive direction for yourself or even a small one, somehow your

nada

> > seems to know and at that moment has a crisis of some kind? This

has

> > happened so many times in my life that it is just ridiculous. I

had an

> > extreme version of this when I made a very sudden jump in my

meditation

> > practice and my father (NPD) who I'd been NC with for two decades

> > tracked me down. This weirds me out to say the least.

> > >

> > > Thoughts?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

If I understand correctly, " lack of empathy " is actually a narcissistic pd and

antisocial pd trait; bpds are (supposedly) able to feel and show empathy.

There certainly seems to be a lot narcissistic pd behaviors in our nadas that we

post about here, according to the list of 25 " Characteristics of Narcissistic

Mothers " at this link:

http://sites.google.com/site/harpyschild/

Makes me wonder if there are any " pure " bpds or if most of them have other pds

or mental illnesses also. But then, bpd can present in such a variety of ways,

all by itself.

A low-functioning waify-hermity bpd would (most likely) be living alone, unable

to hold a job, fearful, disorganized, needy, and attempting to parentify or

spousify her child (suck her child dry emotionally and/or financially),

whereas

a high-functioning queen-witch nada would (most likely) be sociable, able to

hold a job and run her home well, but privately will make her family's life a

living hell with hostility, anger, jealousy, accusations, irrational

accusations, perfectionism, etc.

Those two types of bpd sound like two different disorders, already.

The premise of the book " Understanding The Borderline Mother " is that the four

types the author has described have bpd plus other pds:

Hermit = bpd + Avoidant personality disorder

Waif = bpd + Dependent personality disorder

Queen = bpd + Narcissistic personality disorder

Witch = bpd + Psychopathic personality disorder (aka antisocial pd, or

sociopathic pd)

It probably won't happen in my lifetime or even my great-nephew's lifetime, but

I'm betting that eventually the neurobiologists will be able to pinpoint exactly

where in the brain certain malfunctions are occurring, and fix them. " This

little cluster of synapses here... that's the little rheostat that regulates

emotions; let's jump-start it. This little cluster here, that creates complete

self-absorption when its not working right, let's reconnect that, and this big

hole over here, that's where " empathy " and a " conscience " are supposed to be.

Hmm. Looks like we'll have to implant the silicon " empathy " and " moral compass "

chips... "

(And yes, just like any other advances in human knowledge or technology, such a

thing could be used for both Good AND Evil purposes, or could turn out to have

unanticipated benefits or unanticipated horrific consequences, as well.)

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > Has anyone else noticed a pattern that whenever you make a jump in

> a

> > > positive direction for yourself or even a small one, somehow your

> nada

> > > seems to know and at that moment has a crisis of some kind? This

> has

> > > happened so many times in my life that it is just ridiculous. I

> had an

> > > extreme version of this when I made a very sudden jump in my

> meditation

> > > practice and my father (NPD) who I'd been NC with for two decades

> > > tracked me down. This weirds me out to say the least.

> > > >

> > > > Thoughts?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi , I hear ya. From one source of wisdom in my life I was told that one

of my life lessons was to learn to balance give and take in my life, to learn to

give when it is valued and needed...no pearls before swine. I haven't

completely worked that one out yet, but it sounds like you have a similar

mission.

I've been sitting here thinking about the replies for a couple of days. I'm

going to try to respond. Thank you very much to the people who are giving

perspective. One problem is I never had any.

>

> If I'm remembering right you are backed into a corner with these relatives

that there literally is no one else and if you don't do this stuff they go to a

nursing home?

Well, this is the thing. One is in an assisted living home, the other, after a

six week stint in the psych ward while every single nursing home the social

worker tried, looked at her behavioral problems and turned her down, is now in a

small group home. This means that things like the daily getting up, bathing,

dressing, feeding, and meds are taken care of. Thank God. There is no WAY I

could handle all this in my home and still leave the house and work to stay

under this roof. Plus there is NO way I could handle Ellen's behavior.

She knows when people, mostly relatives, will let her get away with crap, and I,

having been raised to take and take and take borderline crap, am no good at the

kind of attitude you need to take with her. She is doing better in this group

home, behavior-wise, than she has in all the years they were in South Carolina

and all the time I've been dealing with them here.

However, the homes can't do everything. Balancing their checkbook, paying the

bills, doctor visits, hair appointments, shopping for clothes, going to the

pharmacy...these are still my responsibility, or anyone we can pay to do these

things. The idea was to save one day for me to do what I wanted, but when it

comes around...there's exercise. There's raw food to make. The house needs to

be cleaned. If I play hooky...I'm the one who's gonna pay later. And then, of

course, husbands require time. It's not like I'm living here by myself.

Compared to their daily care, the stuff I have to do for them doesn't sound like

much. In practice, it takes a loooong time to do. Things that should be quick

aren't quick with these two. They are mobility impaired and SLOW. When you add

on the hours I spend at work, the hours I spend on our own household paperwork,

and the time it takes to make a raw vegan diet and exercise every day like I

should be doing, it all ends up feeling like I'm a hamster on a wheel. The fact

is, I really need a feeling of freedom in my life, like if I want to just go to

a sidewalk cafe and sit there and write for three hours I can do it and not have

a house that looks like crap, in order to really feel happy in life. Without it

I just wither and die. But every time I take that time, something else I have

to do falls behind again and then I'm struggling to catch up. And then, I feel

like (and I'm sure the caretakers also feel like) I'm their only relative here,

they're handicapped and shut in and lonely, and I'm supposed to do these things,

and I'm being mean and selfish if I don't show my face around and do them. I'd

want somebody to do them if it was me. But, I'm so disgusted by the way they've

acted...it's like nada all over again.

>If there's any other relatives by all means try to make them take up the burden

for a bit. My nada lives in a small town and briefly got signed up for a free

aid to come and clean her house ever so often. My nada *hated* the " invasion of

her privacy " and due to budget cuts the program got canceled, she was pleased. I

managed to feel the burden in my mind lift for all of two weeks.

Around here there isn't. All their relatives are in South Carolina. Well,

there was my uncle, but he got so fed up with my aunt he isn't talking to her

anymore. And she just can't understand why! *headdesk* She was not on her

bipolar meds at the time, but frankly she and her daughter are codependent, and

she thinks that's how you're supposed to live with somebody. The girl pushed

her down and *broke her arm* at least once, and until recently she was covering

up for her!

>

> Anywho, I know you've probably turned over every rock looking for options

here. I hugely agree with though about your husband - that man needs to

be carrying more than his share right now. You deserve to have some time to

feed your soul too. Maybe three dedicated hours a week just for writing, just

for you.

>

>

I wish. But, I have discovered one thing: Unless you have a loaded pistol, you

can't MAKE anyone do anything. And even if you do have a loaded pistol, you

will never make them WANT to. So, if you're living with someone who doesn't

give a crap WHAT the house looks like, and you want to live in a clean house

that looks nice, it's all on you. I wish I could hire a housekeeper for me, but

we don't have the money. It would sure help.

Right now it isn't too *horribly* bad because we saved some money and went on

vacation the first week of Sept, and before we did that I worked like mad

getting the house good and clean so I wouldn't walk in to a mess when we came

back. And, SO FAR I've managed to keep abreast of the housework. (Largely

because I have tendonitis in my foot and have had to skip the gym, and used

having to go to the doctor as an excuse not to see the relatives this week.)

And I gotta say, it's made a HUGE difference to how I'm feeling this week. I

got two new scenes done on my novel, and I'm much happier. But something always

happens, and before I know it I'll be struggling again.

It seems like the only thing that will really help is money. Or me just not

going over there, and making Barbara do everything. But I'm not going to be

getting more money any time soon, and if I get Barbara to do everything I feel

guilty. Doctor visits? I really should be there, I'm the responsible family

member, not her.

I guess people are getting tired of hearing about this. But thanks for the

thoughts and advice. I gotta find a way to get through the next five, ten, or

fifteen years. Or even twenty!

--.

[Guest guest]

This is exactly how my nada was.

Once about four years ago, my grandfather fell out on the sidewalk and hit his

head after having an arrhythmia and blacking out. He was in the hospital for a

few weeks, and the children had to take turns helping my grandmother, who was

very frail and weak.

My nada's responsibilities in this regard just freaked her out. It was always,

" What will people say about how I do this? " (Gee...does that sound familiar?)

She said once that she was worried because my grandmother would shuffle across

the street to get the mail by herself (it was a very non-busy street). She was

worried that my grandma might fall and break a hip. Why? " Because then

everybody will blame me for not watching her. "

*sigh*

--.

[Guest guest]

>

> - Sit down, hon. Put your feet up. Here goes...

>

> " When is it time to turn them over to someone else? " How about right now?

Yesterday? Last month?

About six months ago, when their behavior was REALLY horrible, I really was at

the point of just abandoning them to the assisted living and saying, " I just

can't deal anymore. Find someone who can and don't call me anymore. " But there

I was thinking, " What will these people think? What kind of person am I if I do

that? " I know the head nurse over there; she's a client at the practice I work

at. (That's how I found the place.) And I'd keep thinking this stuff, and not

be able to do it. So, now that they're separated, and behaving better than

they've ever behaved, now I really can't do it. I feel like I'm just being

selfish.

Really, I've accomplished something the people in South Carolina were never able

to do: Get them separated, and keep them well behaved. Granted, I think it's

because they're too old and feeble to fight it the way they used to, and

partially because God just put in my path people who knew how to handle them and

get them to behave, but the fact is, but my aunt and Ellen are doing better

mentally than they have in a LONG, LONG time.

>

>But it doesn't mean you have to go, or feel guilty about not going.

This is the thing. I do feel guilty about not going. I feel like I should be

there. I feel like they always loved me (they always treated me better than my

own mother ever did) and they will miss me and feel hurt. And there are some

things I really should be doing. At the doctor, I really should be there to

hear what the doctor has to say, not hired help. You can get volunteers to

handle financial matters, but is that really wise? (And, would my aunt have a

fit? Most undoubtedly, yes.)

>

> You have been sounding very upset, angry, desperate, and hopeless ever since

you started writing about them. This isn't getting any better for you, is it?

And I don't think it matters to either of them, as long as they're cared for by

somebody. It does not have to be you. Please, PLEASE delegate some of this

stuff before it destroys you.

I'm trying to figure that out. What really is OK to delegate? What really

isn't? How much time should I really be spending with these people? Since once

you're over there, they're so slow, you're over there all day. A short visit

can be had, but is difficult!

>

> If you got hit by a bus TODAY, who would take over these chores? Why can't

those same people take over the chores NOW?

It would have to be social services. They would have to be in the social

services system.

>

> You could remain the " CEO " if you like - being sure that the aides or nursing

home workers aren't abusing your relatives. You could visit every month for ONE

HOUR to assess their physical well-being, and know that the home has your phone

number for emergencies. You can even continue to write out the checks - but

make arrangements with the bank so you can do it from home, sign the damned

things, and send them out. She'll never notice if she's that senile.

Sad to say, she isn't that senile yet. But can she understand her bills, or any

reports on her money? Only enough to see that it's less than the last time, and

freak out over how much things cost. And one hour? I feel really, really good

about that and really, really bad about that, at the same time. Bleah.

>

> You can retain your " fiduciary duty " to handle their money honestly and

competently, while declining to perform the hands-on care. If it's all you can

manage, then IT'S ALL YOU CAN MANAGE. Being a grownup with a life of your own

is not something you have to apologize for, whether you're a budding novelist or

an anonymous middle-aged woman who wants to take a nap once in a while. Do what

you can manage, let paid staff handle the rest, and give yourself a break. If

assisted living can't handle them, they'll have to move on into a nursing home.

See, I know where all this is coming from. I can just hear voices of people in

the past...parents...grandparents...and what they would say. " She took on the

responsibility, and now she won't do a good job. Here she is foisting it onto

other people they don't even know, wasting their money to pay people to do

things she could do for free, to do what?? Sit at a cafe and write some stupid

novel or go to the beach! Selfish, selfish, selfish!! "

I am just having a really hard time believing that it isn't. Of course, when

you look back at the life I've had, it makes perfect sense that, after handing

38 years of it to mentally ill people and ruining it in so doing, I don't want

to hand the next 5-20 to yet some MORE mentally ill people and let them ruin the

rest of it, but...I said yes. I took the job. Now I've got the job. It's my

responsibility. What kind of family member just says, " I'm never going to see

these people again, " and splits, especially when the people are only like ten

minutes away???

>

> Final thought - if you were a man, do you think for ONE MINUTE anybody would

expect you to give everything up and take care of them? No chance, sister.

You're getting dumped on because it's convenient for everybody else to have you

carry the load. It's time to either make the other relatives (or whoever it is

that's sending you guilt)either step up or shut up. And by the way, if you're

working all day and your husband has time to sit down and watch a movie at

night, he can bloody well write out some checks during the commercials or fold

laundry while he watches, so you both get a break at the end of the day.

>

>

Thanks for all the thoughts. I wish I could feel this way and not feel guilty

about it. It would be different if I were already published--then it would be

my career, and you have to have your career, right? But it's not a career.

It's just a fairy tale, really, and nobody knows better than me how unlikely

this particular fairy tale is to ever come true. The fact is, taking care of

these people is probably the most good I will ever do anyone in my whole entire

life.

But I hate it.

And I agree about the husband thing. But, as I've said, you can't MAKE anyone

want to do anything. Even if you've got a loaded pistol. Exactly how is a

woman supposed to secure this kind of cooperation?? Short of divorce, she

can't. Do I want to divorce my husband? No. So, he gets things his way, and I

just have to lump it. You can't MAKE anyone change his behavior.

I don't know. I feel a little bit better about it, but I still don't know how

to make all these needs fit on the head of a pin. And you said it about the man

thing. Would anybody, anybody at ALL, even think anything like this about a

MAN, saddled with the same responsibilities??? Nope. Nobody says anything

about a man who keeps a messy house, either.

Thanks for listening.

--.

[Guest guest]

Hi , a few random thoughts in reply....

I was raised by a nada and in a culture where being branded selfish as a child

was considered a horrible thing. Sounds like you were too. It's hard not to

internalize it. But I'd encourage you to question every thought you have that

uses the word selfish - because those thoughts may not be yours. These FOOs use

the selfish label to train a child to give till it hurts just to be acceptable.

While in fact real generosity, real selflessness is not acknowledged with

gratitude and appreciation - only treated as *what is expected*. So the trap is

set to where you give at this insane level just to be " okay " in your own eyes,

in your culture's eyes. Because to be selfish is to be...rejected, unlovable,

shamed. And the definition of selfish in these sick FOO's includes healthy

self-care behavior. Then friends and sometimes mates come along who see these

handy pre-installed strings and begin to pull on them too. It's all bullshit.

Set yourself free - question everything in your brain!