Re: BPD books for kids?

September 29, 2010

As a librarian in training, I decided to try to test my skills and look for

a book...but unfortunately there aren't any books written for kids about BPD

listed in WorldCat (catalog of most of the world's libraries). Maybe I

should write one! I actually know somebody who draws great cartoons that

would be perfect for childrens' books illustration...

I'm not sure how old your foster daughter is, but you could always work with

her using one of the " stop walking on eggshells " books or similar, and

explain the concepts appropriately for her age group.

Of course, a librarian at your public library might be able to find a book

better than I can, but it doesn't appear that there's anything written for

kids on it.

~Holly

>

> Hello All-

>

> Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to understand articles or books on

> BPD for children whose family members have it?

>

> I'm trying to find something appropriate to give our foster daughter, to

> help her understand her BPD mom and sis.

>

> Letty.

>

September 29, 2010

Lets do it. lets write one. I know a writer (me) and I've written for

children many times.

Yay!!!!!

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Holly Byers

wrote:

> As a librarian in training, I decided to try to test my skills and look for

> a book...but unfortunately there aren't any books written for kids about

> BPD

> listed in WorldCat (catalog of most of the world's libraries). Maybe I

> should write one! I actually know somebody who draws great cartoons that

> would be perfect for childrens' books illustration...

>

> I'm not sure how old your foster daughter is, but you could always work

> with

> her using one of the " stop walking on eggshells " books or similar, and

> explain the concepts appropriately for her age group.

>

> Of course, a librarian at your public library might be able to find a book

> better than I can, but it doesn't appear that there's anything written for

> kids on it.

>

> ~Holly

>

> >

> > Hello All-

> >

> > Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to understand articles or books on

> > BPD for children whose family members have it?

> >

> > I'm trying to find something appropriate to give our foster daughter, to

> > help her understand her BPD mom and sis.

> >

> > Letty.

> >

>

September 29, 2010

Cinderella!

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 8:06:30 AM

Subject: BPD books for kids?

Hello All-

Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to understand articles or books on BPD

for children whose family members have it?

I'm trying to find something appropriate to give our foster daughter, to help

her understand her BPD mom and sis.

Letty.

September 29, 2010

I have heard of just one, and I believe it is self-published, and *I have not

read it.* The blurb makes it sound good, but I'd have to read it before I could

actually recommend it. I admit I am highly skeptical about what good such a

book would do.

Its hard to explain this, but it seems to me that it might easily do more harm

than good.

How would you write a children's book explaining that, for example, your daddy

is a child molester? So you never let daddy touch you or be alone with you.

Well, the child has absolutely NO CONTROL over anything to do with how their

parent behaves; a child has NO control over ANY adult who is around them.

Making the child think that he or she DOES have some control is the same as

making the child believe that they are responsible for their own safety and

that's just not viable or conscionable to me.

Its the other parent's job or another responsible adult's job to deal with the

child's safety and mental well-being, not the child's.

Children should be rescued from abusive parents, not taught how to " cope with "

or manage their mentally ill, abusive parents, because they CAN'T.

Maybe a child can run out of the house while a parent is raging (I did) but what

happens when " Charlie " returns to the house afterward? My very presence was

likely to trigger yet another rage in my nada!! She was hypersensitive to any

perceived behavior on my part that she felt " embarrassed " her, and particularly

if she'd been hunting for me in her rage and couldn't find me, I'd get a

spanking or worse on my return.

Again, this is just my opinion, but I think its in the best interest of the

child to just be told something like:

" Your mommy or daddy loves you but he/she is sick. Its her emotions and

feelings that are sick. That's why she was hitting you and screaming at you and

not taking care of you (or whatever the mentally ill parent's behaviors

were/are.)

Its not your fault that your mommy has sick feelings, you're a good kid, and

very lovable. Your mommy has been sick for much longer than you have even been

around, so her sickness has nothing to do with you at all. Its nobody's fault

that she's so sick, she just came out that way. Its like her feelings are too

big for her handle, and she can't control how angry she gets or how sad she

gets, and grownups need very much to be able to control their feelings and how

they act.

Grownups who can't control their feelings at all can't take care of their kids;

so that's why you're here with me now.

Maybe some day your mommy will get well enough for you to visit each other, but

until then, you're here with me, and I'm very glad to have you here. I love you

very much too. I promise to take care of you and keep you safe, and we can be

like a family to each other, as long as you need me. "

So, IF that's what the book " An Umbrella for Charlie " is about, then, I think

that could be useful for children. But giving a child the idea that he can

" cope " with a mentally ill parent or protect himself from a raging, abusive

parent by temporarily making himself scarce or reciting a mantra or something,

well, that's just cruel.

In my opinion.

Here's the blurb:

An Umbrella for

PDAN is proud to announce the publication of its first book, " An Umbrella for

, " by Rashkin, MS. It tells the story of how a young boy learns to

understand and cope with his mother's BPD illness.

Written to be read with a therapist or parent, the book reassures affected

children that they did not cause and are not responsible for a BPD parent's

volatile behavior.

-Annie

>

> >

> > Hello All-

> >

> > Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to understand articles or books on

> > BPD for children whose family members have it?

> >

> > I'm trying to find something appropriate to give our foster daughter, to

> > help her understand her BPD mom and sis.

> >

> > Letty.

> >

>

September 29, 2010

Interestingly enough, in the older, original versions of the traditional old

fairy-tales like Cinderella, the wicked stepmother and wicked step-sisters die

horrible deaths for their mistreatment of Cinderella. I think the step-sisters

are made to wear red-hot iron shoes and dance until they die. I forget what

happens to the wicked step-mother.

The explanation I heard or read somewhere is that " Children are innocent, and

therefor crave justice, while adults are guilty and therefor crave mercy. "

If you're interested in reading about the history of and psychological

underpinnings of fairy-tales (the theory is that they are timeless stories

because a lot of them are about life passages through different stages of

emotional development from child to adult) you might enjoy " The Uses of

Enchantment " . Can't remember the author offhand. I found it a fascinating

read!

-Annie

>

> Cinderella!

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 8:06:30 AM

> Subject: BPD books for kids?

>

> Hello All-

>

> Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to understand articles or books on BPD

> for children whose family members have it?

>

> I'm trying to find something appropriate to give our foster daughter, to help

> her understand her BPD mom and sis.

>

> Letty.

>

September 29, 2010

I'm chuckling . . . Does anyone watch Glee? The school counselor always has the

best pamphlets. One of them (with the cartoon face of a raging woman on the

front) is entitled:

" My Mom's Bi-Polar and She Won't Stop Screaming. "

In all seriousness, you SHOULD write a book. Can you imagine how much it would

have helped us? Just to have one thing that said: " Here's what's going on.

It's not you. "

Blessings,

Karla

>

> Hello All-

>

> Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to understand articles or books on BPD

for children whose family members have it?

>

> I'm trying to find something appropriate to give our foster daughter, to help

her understand her BPD mom and sis.

>

> Letty.

>

September 29, 2010

hmmmm...We have a shop nearby that specializes in kids books on mental health

type subjects. I might have to take a wander in there when my charges are all

at preschool one morning and see what they have. Give me a few days, I'll see.

There might be books that aren't specific to BPD but that *are* about surviving,

learning to set healthy boundaries, etc.

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: BPD books for kids?

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 4:40 PM

> I have heard of just one, and I

> believe it is self-published, and *I have not read

> it.* The blurb makes it sound good, but I'd have to

> read it before I could actually recommend it. I admit

> I am highly skeptical about what good such a book would do.

>

> Its hard to explain this, but it seems to me that it might

> easily do more harm than good.

>

> How would you write a children's book explaining that, for

> example, your daddy is a child molester? So

> you never let daddy touch you or be alone with you.

>

> Well, the child has absolutely NO CONTROL over anything to

> do with how their parent behaves; a child has NO control

> over ANY adult who is around them.

>

> Making the child think that he or she DOES have some

> control is the same as making the child believe that they

> are responsible for their own safety and that's just not

> viable or conscionable to me.

>

> Its the other parent's job or another responsible adult's

> job to deal with the child's safety and mental well-being,

> not the child's.

>

> Children should be rescued from abusive parents, not taught

> how to " cope with " or manage their mentally ill, abusive

> parents, because they CAN'T.

>

> Maybe a child can run out of the house while a parent is

> raging (I did) but what happens when " Charlie " returns to

> the house afterward? My very presence was likely to

> trigger yet another rage in my nada!! She was hypersensitive

> to any perceived behavior on my part that she felt

> " embarrassed " her, and particularly if she'd been hunting

> for me in her rage and couldn't find me, I'd get a spanking

> or worse on my return.

>

> Again, this is just my opinion, but I think its in the best

> interest of the child to just be told something like:

>

> " Your mommy or daddy loves you but he/she is sick.

> Its her emotions and feelings that are sick. That's

> why she was hitting you and screaming at you and not taking

> care of you (or whatever the mentally ill parent's behaviors

> were/are.)

>

> Its not your fault that your mommy has sick feelings,

> you're a good kid, and very lovable. Your mommy has

> been sick for much longer than you have even been around, so

> her sickness has nothing to do with you at all. Its

> nobody's fault that she's so sick, she just came out that

> way. Its like her feelings are too big for her handle,

> and she can't control how angry she gets or how sad she

> gets, and grownups need very much to be able to control

> their feelings and how they act.

>

> Grownups who can't control their feelings at all

> can't take care of their kids; so that's why you're here

> with me now.

>

> Maybe some day your mommy will get well enough for you to

> visit each other, but until then, you're here with me, and

> I'm very glad to have you here. I love you very much

> too. I promise to take care of you and keep you safe, and we

> can be like a family to each other, as long as you need

> me. "

>

> So, IF that's what the book " An Umbrella for Charlie " is

> about, then, I think that could be useful for

> children. But giving a child the idea that he can

> " cope " with a mentally ill parent or protect himself from a

> raging, abusive parent by temporarily making himself scarce

> or reciting a mantra or something, well, that's just cruel.

>

> In my opinion.

>

> Here's the blurb:

>

> An Umbrella for

>

> PDAN is proud to announce the publication of its first

> book, " An Umbrella for , " by Rashkin, MS. It

> tells the story of how a young boy learns to understand and

> cope with his mother's BPD illness.

>

> Written to be read with a therapist or parent, the book

> reassures affected children that they did not cause and are

> not responsible for a BPD parent's volatile behavior.

>

> -Annie

>

> >

> > >

> > > Hello All-

> > >

> > > Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to

> understand articles or books on

> > > BPD for children whose family members have it?

> > >

> > > I'm trying to find something appropriate to give

> our foster daughter, to

> > > help her understand her BPD mom and sis.

> > >

> > > Letty.

> > >

> >

September 29, 2010

hehehehe...I saw that one. I *love* Glee.

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: BPD books for kids?

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 4:57 PM

> I'm chuckling . . . Does anyone watch

> Glee? The school counselor always has the best

> pamphlets. One of them (with the cartoon face of a

> raging woman on the front) is entitled:

>

> " My Mom's Bi-Polar and She Won't Stop Screaming. "

>

> In all seriousness, you SHOULD write a book. Can you

> imagine how much it would have helped us? Just to have

> one thing that said: " Here's what's going on.

> It's not you. "

>

> Blessings,

> Karla

>

> >

> > Hello All-

> >

> > Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to understand

> articles or books on BPD for children whose family members

> have it?

> >

> > I'm trying to find something appropriate to give our

> foster daughter, to help her understand her BPD mom and

> sis.

> >

> > Letty.

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> **This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new

> book The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality

> Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells,

> available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write @....

> DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

>

> To unsub from this list, send a blank email to

WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe .

>

> Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline

> Parent, " and " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to

> find)

September 29, 2010

Is it even possible for a young child to set a boundary with a mentally ill

parent? Particularly a bpd parent? Me personally, I don't think so. I can see

teaching a child how to set boundaries of what is tolerable and intolerable

behavior *with another child*, but I just can't see a little child 8 years old

or under setting a boundary or rule for their own parent.

There is lots of information out there now RE how to teach children about

" stranger danger. " Such as " Don't walk to and from school by yourself, be in a

group, Don't get into a car with a stranger, don't open your door to a stranger,

don't give your real name on the internet, don't let anyone touch you in your

" bathing suit " areas " , etc., etc.

But how do you even begin to address such danger awareness and self-protective

behavior *when the danger is coming from the child's own parent?* Do you teach

the child to call the police if mommy is screaming at them and threatening to

hit them with the belt (or just did give the child a beating?) Do you tell the

child to run to the police station or run to the neighbor's house if they live

through having mommy or daddy holding the scissors to their throat and

threatening to kill them?

And after the brouhaha is over, what is the most likely thing to happen to the

child? The child will be severely punished by their parent/abuser, is what.

See, to me, if a parent is THAT mentally ill and out-of-control that the child

is terrified of them and knows that she will be threatened with death or beaten

if they ask another adult for help (as has been posted here recently, and

earlier, and on other boards I belong to) then teaching a child to " set

boundaries " with their mentally ill caregiver is asking for retaliation to the

point of it being life-endangering.

Me personally, I think its just too dangerous for a child to even attempt to

confront a mentally ill parent. My nada's rages were bad enough without her

actually thinking that I was out to deliberately get her arrested!

I do think that classes on " emotional hygiene " need to be instituted in all

grade levels, and the desired result is to educate children to recognize what

abuse and neglect are, and that if they're being neglected or mistreated or

endangered at home, that *they have the right to report it to a mandated

reporter*, but NOT try to confront their parent on their own.

The biggest issue, to me, is that the child needs to be removed from the home

situation for their own safety until the issue is investigated and resolved, and

then *IF* the child is returned to the home there needs to be monitoring and

supervision of the parents by some kind of board of parenting supervision. But

right now that is an unachievable fantasy; very little money is allocated to

deal with even the worst of the worst cases of neglect and abuse.

Maybe there should be " safe houses " for children the same as there are for the

adult female victims of domestic violence. Because that's what were basically

talking about here: domestic violence and emotional violence and neglect and

exploitation perpetrated against children *by their own parents who happen to

have a severe mental illness.*

I know that most of what I babble on about is not achievable in my lifetime, but

I think its worth at least putting out there in the ether to perhaps get the

ball rolling.

-Annie

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Hello All-

> > > >

> > > > Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to

> > understand articles or books on

> > > > BPD for children whose family members have it?

> > > >

> > > > I'm trying to find something appropriate to give

> > our foster daughter, to

> > > > help her understand her BPD mom and sis.

> > > >

> > > > Letty.

> > > >

> > >

September 29, 2010

You know what? Harry Potter surprised me in how similar his " parents " are to BPD

in a way.

Also the " Lemony Snickets Series of Unfortunate Events " . If you havent read

those ones, its about kids whose lovely parents die and now they have an evil

uncle who tries to get custody by knocking off all the nice relatives. The book

focuses on the problem solving abilities of the kids and how they manage to

handle things going constantly wrong without getting depressed. Brilliant books

in my opinion.

I dont think setting boundaries would work for kids - they would just get

hammered for it. Id try the approach of inspiring them to just keep going, and

that there are other people out there with awful starts in life who have gone on

to be happy and successful.

When they are old enough to withstand the rages, then boundary setting books

would be good.

>

> Hello All-

>

> Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to understand articles or books on BPD

for children whose family members have it?

>

> I'm trying to find something appropriate to give our foster daughter, to help

her understand her BPD mom and sis.

>

> Letty.

>

September 29, 2010

Hello Annie and others-

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Just to clarify, " " is an incredibly bright 13 year old who is interested

in how the brain works and what mental illness is.

She wants to understand why her mom and older sister act they way they do,

though she recognizes already that she can't change or save them. She's

remarkably perceptive for someone her age.

There is very little chance that she'll have to be sent back to the mom, or have

unsupervised contact with her.

She'd like to have little or no contact, but feels guilty about that.

I think it would help her to have a basic understanding of BPD, and reassurance

that it's okay to separate yourself from someone, even a relative, if they are

hurting you.

Letty

P.S. Can I just say, because I can't help it, what a kind-hearted,

compassionate, fantastic little person she is?

> >

> > >

> > > Hello All-

> > >

> > > Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to understand articles or books on

> > > BPD for children whose family members have it?

> > >

> > > I'm trying to find something appropriate to give our foster daughter, to

> > > help her understand her BPD mom and sis.

> > >

> > > Letty.

> > >

> >

September 29, 2010

Aww Letty, I love you! hehe

It sounds like she would benefit from the adult books, particularly if it is you

and/or her therapist going through it with her and discussing it.

Im so jealous that a 13yr old can get such a leg-up in life - to be able to

understand her mothers behaviour BEFORE she has boyfriends, parties etc! Thats a

big deal.

I cant stress enough what a WONDERFUL WONDERFUL woman you are to be doing this

for . I wish you were my mum!

>

> Hello Annie and others-

>

> Thanks for all the suggestions!

>

> Just to clarify, " " is an incredibly bright 13 year old who is interested

in how the brain works and what mental illness is.

>

> She wants to understand why her mom and older sister act they way they do,

though she recognizes already that she can't change or save them. She's

remarkably perceptive for someone her age.

>

> There is very little chance that she'll have to be sent back to the mom, or

have unsupervised contact with her.

>

> She'd like to have little or no contact, but feels guilty about that.

>

> I think it would help her to have a basic understanding of BPD, and

reassurance that it's okay to separate yourself from someone, even a relative,

if they are hurting you.

>

> Letty

>

> P.S. Can I just say, because I can't help it, what a kind-hearted,

compassionate, fantastic little person she is?

>

September 29, 2010

Believe me, we are the lucky ones to have this great kid be part of our lives.

There is no merit in taking care of someone as delightful as .

And we're holding off on the boyfriends as long as possible, though they are

CONSTANTLY asking her out!!!

> >

> > Hello Annie and others-

> >

> > Thanks for all the suggestions!

> >

> > Just to clarify, " " is an incredibly bright 13 year old who is

interested in how the brain works and what mental illness is.

> >

> > She wants to understand why her mom and older sister act they way they do,

though she recognizes already that she can't change or save them. She's

remarkably perceptive for someone her age.

> >

> > There is very little chance that she'll have to be sent back to the mom, or

have unsupervised contact with her.

> >

> > She'd like to have little or no contact, but feels guilty about that.

> >

> > I think it would help her to have a basic understanding of BPD, and

reassurance that it's okay to separate yourself from someone, even a relative,

if they are hurting you.

> >

> > Letty

> >

> > P.S. Can I just say, because I can't help it, what a kind-hearted,

compassionate, fantastic little person she is?

> >

>

September 29, 2010

In that case, I think that a bright 13 year old who is no longer in the care of

her mentally ill parent could get a good understanding of bpd behaviors from

" Stop Walking On Eggshells " . If I remember correctly SWOE is written in

layman's terms for the general public, and doesn't use much if any psychological

jargon and doesn't have adult-level sexual intercourse-related content. My

memory of " Understanding the Borderline Mother " seems to include more

adult-level content and psychological jargon. " Lost In The Mirror " is actually

aimed at helping those with bpd understand their condition better, but the

author uses more psychological jargon to explain the processes of trauma and

treatment.

-Annie

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Hello All-

> > > >

> > > > Does anyone know of good, simple, easy to understand articles or books

on

> > > > BPD for children whose family members have it?

> > > >

> > > > I'm trying to find something appropriate to give our foster daughter, to

> > > > help her understand her BPD mom and sis.

> > > >

> > > > Letty.

> > > >

> > >

September 29, 2010

Children who are in potentially abusive situations absolutely should be taught

that they can call for help.

They can also be taught to set internal boundaries, to know what healthy

boundaries are, and how to identify when the crazy has taken over their parent

and, thus, to put the responsibility accurately on the parent rather than

blaming self. Children, by nature, tend to take on emotional responsiblity for

everything that happens because their brains lack the physical development to

step outside of a situation and see it from multiple perspectives.

However, the child in question...for whom the books are being asked...is, if I

recall correctly, not currently in the custody of her mentally ill parent. She

is a foster child, no? With a foster mother in this group who is trying to help

the child make sense of her FOO. In which case, I would guess that the child

may need a little more direction than most children her age in learning how to

set healthy boundaries and to communicate those to others, even her biological

parent.

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: BPD books for kids?

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 8:35 PM

> Is it even possible for a young child

> to set a boundary with a mentally ill parent?

> Particularly a bpd parent? Me personally, I don't

> think so. I can see teaching a child how to set

> boundaries of what is tolerable and intolerable behavior

> *with another child*, but I just can't see a little child 8

> years old or under setting a boundary or rule for their own

> parent.

>

> There is lots of information out there now RE how to teach

> children about " stranger danger. " Such as " Don't walk

> to and from school by yourself, be in a group, Don't get

> into a car with a stranger, don't open your door to a

> stranger, don't give your real name on the internet, don't

> let anyone touch you in your " bathing suit " areas " , etc.,

> etc.

>

> But how do you even begin to address such danger awareness

> and self-protective behavior *when the danger is coming from

> the child's own parent?* Do you teach the child to

> call the police if mommy is screaming at them and

> threatening to hit them with the belt (or just did give the

> child a beating?) Do you tell the child to run to the

> police station or run to the neighbor's house if they live

> through having mommy or daddy holding the scissors to their

> throat and threatening to kill them?

>

> And after the brouhaha is over, what is the most likely

> thing to happen to the child? The child will be

> severely punished by their parent/abuser, is what.

>

> See, to me, if a parent is THAT mentally ill and

> out-of-control that the child is terrified of them and knows

> that she will be threatened with death or beaten if they ask

> another adult for help (as has been posted here recently,

> and earlier, and on other boards I belong to) then teaching

> a child to " set boundaries " with their mentally ill

> caregiver is asking for retaliation to the point of it being

> life-endangering.

>

> Me personally, I think its just too dangerous for a child

> to even attempt to confront a mentally ill parent. My

> nada's rages were bad enough without her actually thinking

> that I was out to deliberately get her arrested!

>

> I do think that classes on " emotional hygiene " need to be

> instituted in all grade levels, and the desired result is to

> educate children to recognize what abuse and neglect are,

> and that if they're being neglected or mistreated or

> endangered at home, that *they have the right to report it

> to a mandated reporter*, but NOT try to confront their

> parent on their own.

>

> The biggest issue, to me, is that the child needs to be

> removed from the home situation for their own safety until

> the issue is investigated and resolved, and then *IF* the

> child is returned to the home there needs to be monitoring

> and supervision of the parents by some kind of board of

> parenting supervision. But right now that is an

> unachievable fantasy; very little money is allocated to deal

> with even the worst of the worst cases of neglect and

> abuse.

>

> Maybe there should be " safe houses " for children the same

> as there are for the adult female victims of domestic

> violence. Because that's what were basically talking

> about here: domestic violence and emotional violence and

> neglect and exploitation perpetrated against children *by

> their own parents who happen to have a severe mental

> illness.*

>

> I know that most of what I babble on about is not

> achievable in my lifetime, but I think its worth at least

> putting out there in the ether to perhaps get the ball

> rolling.

>

> -Annie

>

September 30, 2010

I think you explained it very well,Annie.While there is a real need for a

children's book that addresses the subject of BPD parents,it seems to me that

such a book would *have* to meaningfully take into account that a child cannot

and should not ever be expected to manage a parent's mental illness in any way.

" An Umbrella For " sounded familiar to me--I had come across

reviews of this book quite a while ago reading BPD stuff online.I haven't read

it,either,but went back and reread the reviews.

Two things about this book jumped right out at me this time:

First,that has an " emotionally stable " father who helps him to understand

that his mother's BPD behavior isn't his fault.Since I haven't read the book,I

don't know if this " emotionally stable " father is still married to the BPD

mother and they all live in the same household or if this BPD mother has limited

visitation with or what.But right there I see something that doesn't quite

jibe with the average KO experience: just from reading members' posts on this

message board,I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of us did not have

an " emotionally stable " co-parent,be that a father married to a nada (can anyone

say " dishrag " ?) or a mother married to a fada.I have to say,having a truly

" emotionally stable " father (or mother) married to a BPD seems to be not the

norm.

When I was in first grade the police came to our classroom to give a

presentation on stranger danger.They gave us a booklet about a little girl who

was abducted by a man in his car.She had an older brother who witnessed the

adbuction and ran to the nearest police station to get help.The over all point

of the presentation was supposed to communicate to us that the police are our

friends and that we can ask them for help--as well as to explain to us that we

don't have to talk to strangers,shouldn't get into cars with them,etc.But to my

six year old mind,what leapt out at me in the story was that the little girl was

saved by her big brother--and I didn't happen to have a big brother.I was also

being sexually abused at the time by teenagers I knew,not by some stranger,so I

also had to wonder in my six year old way why the police seemed not to know

about situations like mine since they never mentioned anything like that but

seemed (to me) to only believe that strangers are dangerous.I guess,I

thought,this is happening to me because it's my own fault because the police

must surely know about all kinds of things and if they aren't mentioning the

kind of experience I am having as something bad to be protected from,it must

only be happening to me.Which must somehow be my own fault.The little girl in

the booklet is " worthy " of rescue because the police are saying so,but I must

not be because they have said absolutely nothing about what I am experiencing.

I felt very distressed by these thoughts so when the teacher told us

we could ask the police questions,I raised my hand to ask, " But what if you don't

have a big brother to run to the police station for you? "

They told me you don't have to have a big brother,you can always ask

the police for help all by yourself.Which totally didn't accord with the story

in the booklet they'd given us that had an illustration of the little girl at

the back window of the abductor's car as it drove off with her in it--kinda late

to run to the police at that point.I felt like the little girl was being used

for dramatic effect and I felt emotionally manipulated by the story and annoyed

by it.And like the whole scenario just did not apply to my situation at all to

the point of being irrelevant.At the same time I blamed myself all over again

and more so because even the police didn't acknowledge my kind of

situation.Which must mean that it isn't important and neither am I.

So I have to wonder if the average (I assume) kid of a BPD who does not

have an " emotionally stable " other parent to help them understand would feel

invalidated by this book? As in: but my other parent doesn't take the time to

explain this stuff to me (or worse,blames me),so there must be something wrong

with *me*? Only kids who have such an " emotionally stable " father who takes the

time to talk it through with them are worthy of assistance because that's what

is in the book,but since I don't have that,my experience is mud.This book isn't

about me; nobody writes a book about me because I am not worth writing a book

about; only kids whose fathers really care about how they feel like the guy in

this book are worthy.Or maybe it's just because I am the only one this is

happening to,that my other parent doesn't seem to care--and that must be because

I am personally defective because according to this book the father explains and

cares.It must be me.

The other thing I noticed was that is encouraged to imagine that he

has an umbrella to use as a shield to deflect his nada's moods.Whoa.Sorry,but

encouraging a child to retreat into a fantasy world in order to cope with his

mother's BPD isn't healthy.Promoting a child's creative imagination is a

wonderful thing to be sure,but NOT for the purposes of *having* to come up with

some fantasy merely to cope with a dysfunctional situation.Haven't we had

threads about that on this very board,how many of us retreated into a fantasy

world to escape from the predations of our nadas/fadas? Why in the world should

have to do that if he's got this supposedly " emotionally stable " father

who,instead of teaching him to ward off his nada's mentally ill behavior with

some imaginary umbrella,should be actively practically and concretely protecting

him from it or at the very least validating for him that he does not in fact

have to put up with it??????? Because isn't encouraging to use an imaginary

umbrella as a shield much the same as teaching him that he needs to somehow

learn to endure his nada's behavior? Rather than simply saying to him: You have

the right not to be subjected to or to have to tolerate your nada's foul

moods.Period.Period.

I totally agree with you,Annie,that children need to be rescued from abusive

parents,not taught how to " cope " with them because they CAN'T.Encouraging a

child to engage in some fantasy of false " omnipotence " ,such as possessing a

magical umbrella that shields them from the effects of a nada's abuse,just rings

*wrong* to me.The child shouldn't be in that situation in the first place-and if

they are,a responsible adult needs to step in and very clearly take charge of

the situation on the child's behalf.NOT tell them to fantasize away the problem

on their own,gawd....Also,what a strange contradiction that is: " Emotionally

stable " Dad wants to help you to understand it isn't your fault but at the same

time offers you a " solution " in the guise of a magical fantasy talisman--this

umbrella that is entirely up to you to imaginatively envision and employ even in

the extremis of a nada's temper--all I can say is: Tell that kid umbrellas are

for rainy days not for effing nadas!!!! *You* need to be that shield,for real.

>

> I have heard of just one, and I believe it is self-published, and *I have not

read it.* The blurb makes it sound good, but I'd have to read it before I could

actually recommend it. I admit I am highly skeptical about what good such a

book would do.

>

> Its hard to explain this, but it seems to me that it might easily do more harm

than good.

>

> How would you write a children's book explaining that, for example, your daddy

is a child molester? So you never let daddy touch you or be alone with you.

>

> Well, the child has absolutely NO CONTROL over anything to do with how their

parent behaves; a child has NO control over ANY adult who is around them.

>

> Making the child think that he or she DOES have some control is the same as

making the child believe that they are responsible for their own safety and

that's just not viable or conscionable to me.

>

> Its the other parent's job or another responsible adult's job to deal with the

child's safety and mental well-being, not the child's.

>

> Children should be rescued from abusive parents, not taught how to " cope with "

or manage their mentally ill, abusive parents, because they CAN'T.

>

> Maybe a child can run out of the house while a parent is raging (I did) but

what happens when " Charlie " returns to the house afterward? My very presence

was likely to trigger yet another rage in my nada!! She was hypersensitive to

any perceived behavior on my part that she felt " embarrassed " her, and

particularly if she'd been hunting for me in her rage and couldn't find me, I'd

get a spanking or worse on my return.

>

> Again, this is just my opinion, but I think its in the best interest of the

child to just be told something like:

>

> " Your mommy or daddy loves you but he/she is sick. Its her emotions and

feelings that are sick. That's why she was hitting you and screaming at you and

not taking care of you (or whatever the mentally ill parent's behaviors

were/are.)

>

> Its not your fault that your mommy has sick feelings, you're a good kid, and

very lovable. Your mommy has been sick for much longer than you have even been

around, so her sickness has nothing to do with you at all. Its nobody's fault

that she's so sick, she just came out that way. Its like her feelings are too

big for her handle, and she can't control how angry she gets or how sad she

gets, and grownups need very much to be able to control their feelings and how

they act.

>

> Grownups who can't control their feelings at all can't take care of their

kids; so that's why you're here with me now.

>

> Maybe some day your mommy will get well enough for you to visit each other,

but until then, you're here with me, and I'm very glad to have you here. I love

you very much too. I promise to take care of you and keep you safe, and we can

be like a family to each other, as long as you need me. "

>

> So, IF that's what the book " An Umbrella for Charlie " is about, then, I think

that could be useful for children. But giving a child the idea that he can

" cope " with a mentally ill parent or protect himself from a raging, abusive

parent by temporarily making himself scarce or reciting a mantra or something,

well, that's just cruel.

>

> In my opinion.

>

> Here's the blurb:

>

> An Umbrella for

>

> PDAN is proud to announce the publication of its first book, " An Umbrella for

, " by Rashkin, MS. It tells the story of how a young boy learns to

understand and cope with his mother's BPD illness.

>

> Written to be read with a therapist or parent, the book reassures affected

children that they did not cause and are not responsible for a BPD parent's

volatile behavior.

>

> -Annie

September 30, 2010

Many thoughts stirred by this topic. I think that unless the child can be

actively protected and saved that it is not beneficial to speak to them about

BPD. Better to talk to them about it when they are in their late teens or have

broken out. All those coping mechanisms dissocation, taking the blame,

splitting the good/bad mother in the *child's* mind all exist to help the child

survive. To help the child to not experience the reality of being unloved and

unsafe. Those defense mechanisms are there for a reason - they work, at a cost

true, but they help.

I think if when I was seven or so, someone had explained to me that my nada was

crazy and told me to imagine an umbrella I would have fallen into abject

despair. Because it was just her and me, there was no one to save me, no one to

soften her moods or answer her needs. There was no escape, so for me it was

better to believe that I was a " bad kid " and that it was my fault when I " made

mommy mad " . The truth of being utterly dependent on a crazy person...many many

times worse.

> >

> > I have heard of just one, and I believe it is self-published, and *I have

not read it.* The blurb makes it sound good, but I'd have to read it before I

could actually recommend it. I admit I am highly skeptical about what good such

a book would do.

> >

> > Its hard to explain this, but it seems to me that it might easily do more

harm than good.

> >

> > How would you write a children's book explaining that, for example, your

daddy is a child molester? So you never let daddy touch you or be alone with

you.

> >

> > Well, the child has absolutely NO CONTROL over anything to do with how their

parent behaves; a child has NO control over ANY adult who is around them.

> >

> > Making the child think that he or she DOES have some control is the same as

making the child believe that they are responsible for their own safety and

that's just not viable or conscionable to me.

> >

> > Its the other parent's job or another responsible adult's job to deal with

the child's safety and mental well-being, not the child's.

> >

> > Children should be rescued from abusive parents, not taught how to " cope

with " or manage their mentally ill, abusive parents, because they CAN'T.

> >

> > Maybe a child can run out of the house while a parent is raging (I did) but

what happens when " Charlie " returns to the house afterward? My very presence

was likely to trigger yet another rage in my nada!! She was hypersensitive to

any perceived behavior on my part that she felt " embarrassed " her, and

particularly if she'd been hunting for me in her rage and couldn't find me, I'd

get a spanking or worse on my return.

> >

> > Again, this is just my opinion, but I think its in the best interest of the

child to just be told something like:

> >

> > " Your mommy or daddy loves you but he/she is sick. Its her emotions and

feelings that are sick. That's why she was hitting you and screaming at you and

not taking care of you (or whatever the mentally ill parent's behaviors

were/are.)

> >

> > Its not your fault that your mommy has sick feelings, you're a good kid, and

very lovable. Your mommy has been sick for much longer than you have even been

around, so her sickness has nothing to do with you at all. Its nobody's fault

that she's so sick, she just came out that way. Its like her feelings are too

big for her handle, and she can't control how angry she gets or how sad she

gets, and grownups need very much to be able to control their feelings and how

they act.

> >

> > Grownups who can't control their feelings at all can't take care of their

kids; so that's why you're here with me now.

> >

> > Maybe some day your mommy will get well enough for you to visit each other,

but until then, you're here with me, and I'm very glad to have you here. I love

you very much too. I promise to take care of you and keep you safe, and we can

be like a family to each other, as long as you need me. "

> >

> > So, IF that's what the book " An Umbrella for Charlie " is about, then, I

think that could be useful for children. But giving a child the idea that he

can " cope " with a mentally ill parent or protect himself from a raging, abusive

parent by temporarily making himself scarce or reciting a mantra or something,

well, that's just cruel.

> >

> > In my opinion.

> >

> > Here's the blurb:

> >

> > An Umbrella for

> >

> > PDAN is proud to announce the publication of its first book, " An Umbrella

for , " by Rashkin, MS. It tells the story of how a young boy learns

to understand and cope with his mother's BPD illness.

> >

> > Written to be read with a therapist or parent, the book reassures affected

children that they did not cause and are not responsible for a BPD parent's

volatile behavior.

> >

> > -Annie

>

September 30, 2010

,I get what you're saying here.I wondered myself how I would have handled

being told my nada had BPD before,say,the age of ten (by which time I was able

to consciously think there was something wrong with her to varying degrees).I

think it would have been overwhelmingly freaky before then if I was told about

it and still had to live with her.

Being offered the " umbrella solution " would have sent me into abject

despair,too.Especially if that had come from a therapist reading the book with

me--I think that would have really screwed me up.

>

> Many thoughts stirred by this topic. I think that unless the child can be

actively protected and saved that it is not beneficial to speak to them about

BPD. Better to talk to them about it when they are in their late teens or have

broken out. All those coping mechanisms dissocation, taking the blame,

splitting the good/bad mother in the *child's* mind all exist to help the child

survive. To help the child to not experience the reality of being unloved and

unsafe. Those defense mechanisms are there for a reason - they work, at a cost

true, but they help.

>

> I think if when I was seven or so, someone had explained to me that my nada

was crazy and told me to imagine an umbrella I would have fallen into abject

despair. Because it was just her and me, there was no one to save me, no one to

soften her moods or answer her needs. There was no escape, so for me it was

better to believe that I was a " bad kid " and that it was my fault when I " made

mommy mad " . The truth of being utterly dependent on a crazy person...many many

times worse.

>

October 1, 2010

Ditto - if I had ever said to mum while she was in a rage " youre insane!! " it is

highly possible she would have gotten angry enough to do anything. Ive actually

NEVER had the guts to say it, even as an adult. One day I will!

We were not allowed to touch the phone, there were no neighbours to run to,

there was nowhere to go, there was noone to call.

If I had known at a young age that mum was completely insane, I think I would

have killed myself rather than know that the craziness wasnt something I could

ever " fix " by behaving better. That little semblance of control is all you have

to keep you sane. When I was about 13 and realised that there was something

wrong, I could finally fight and run fast, even then there was nowhere to go.

But during my teen years, if I had been educated about this type of mental

illness at school, maybe I would have had the guts to at least talk to someone

about it.

> >

> > Many thoughts stirred by this topic. I think that unless the child can be

actively protected and saved that it is not beneficial to speak to them about

BPD. Better to talk to them about it when they are in their late teens or have

broken out. All those coping mechanisms dissocation, taking the blame,

splitting the good/bad mother in the *child's* mind all exist to help the child

survive. To help the child to not experience the reality of being unloved and

unsafe. Those defense mechanisms are there for a reason - they work, at a cost

true, but they help.

> >

> > I think if when I was seven or so, someone had explained to me that my nada

was crazy and told me to imagine an umbrella I would have fallen into abject

despair. Because it was just her and me, there was no one to save me, no one to

soften her moods or answer her needs. There was no escape, so for me it was

better to believe that I was a " bad kid " and that it was my fault when I " made

mommy mad " . The truth of being utterly dependent on a crazy person...many many

times worse.

> >

>

October 1, 2010

This is interesting. I've always known my mother was mentally ill. My dad

flat out told me. I would go to talk to him about something she had done or

said and he would tell me not to pay attention to her rantings, because I

knew she was insane and needed psychiatric help. Still, she was my mother -

you know what I mean. That means she had authority, her opinions mattered,

and she was the only person I had to turn to when it came to things like

shaving my legs, figuring out what to do with a tampon, and applying makeup.

Otherwise, my dad raised me. I bet I don't even need to tell you guys that I

figured out the shaving, the tampons and the makeup 100 percent on my own

without her help. But still, those were things my dad couldn't really help

me with.

My T tells me I am actually very fortunate that I had a dad who was so frank

with me. Yes, he should have packed me up and moved me far away from her

insanity. But, not haviing that in him to give me, he did the next best

thing. he defined another territory where he tooke me and brought me up and

did the majority of the raising of me. 3 -4 days a week we were out camping,

and the others we were over at my kind (though helpless) grandmother's. So

my T says I should count myself lucky. She also says, (not in these exact

words) that he raised me the way people take in an injured bird,

rehabilitate it, and then set it free into the wild again. She thinks he

understands that I need to be NC. That I can't have her in my life because

she damages me. And because he looks at me like I'm a wild animal, and not

his possession (how different from the way nadas see us), he understands

that I have my own life to live out in the wild. She thinks he gets it.

And that reframing REALLY REALLY helps me. And can you see all of the

western cowboy symbolism, ha ha, sage brush, horses, and wide open spaces.

That's how my dad brought me up. Nada's contribution is a whole other story

of small, messy, stinky, dark domestic spaces. But its one that I can deal

with, face down, put to rest and bury.

Loves to you guys. I'm sorry that your nadas were such pieces of shit. I

guess my point is, I think kids can handle knowing they have a mentally ill

parent. I knew. I can't remember a time when I didnt know. The older I got,

the more my dad let me know she wasn't well and needed help. He tried to

help her get help, but as we all know, its a gift that you can only give to

yourself. No other way to get it. I also think it was a process - I don't

think he knew how ill she was when I was born, and maybe the way she dealt

with me turned a light on for him. But he knew and he clued me in.

XOXOXOXO to you all. I'm overwhelmed sometimes by the saddness these crazy

bitches unleashed on our lives. I wish you all peace, a little joy and a lot

of love.

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:42 AM, crazy150345 wrote:

>

> Ditto - if I had ever said to mum while she was in a rage " youre insane!! "

> it is highly possible she would have gotten angry enough to do anything. Ive

> actually NEVER had the guts to say it, even as an adult. One day I will!

>

> We were not allowed to touch the phone, there were no neighbours to run to,

> there was nowhere to go, there was noone to call.

>

> If I had known at a young age that mum was completely insane, I think I

> would have killed myself rather than know that the craziness wasnt something

> I could ever " fix " by behaving better. That little semblance of control is

> all you have to keep you sane. When I was about 13 and realised that there

> was something wrong, I could finally fight and run fast, even then there was

> nowhere to go. But during my teen years, if I had been educated about this

> type of mental illness at school, maybe I would have had the guts to at

> least talk to someone about it.

>

> > >

> > > Many thoughts stirred by this topic. I think that unless the child can

> be actively protected and saved that it is not beneficial to speak to them

> about BPD. Better to talk to them about it when they are in their late teens

> or have broken out. All those coping mechanisms dissocation, taking the

> blame, splitting the good/bad mother in the *child's* mind all exist to help

> the child survive. To help the child to not experience the reality of being

> unloved and unsafe. Those defense mechanisms are there for a reason - they

> work, at a cost true, but they help.

> > >

> > > I think if when I was seven or so, someone had explained to me that my

> nada was crazy and told me to imagine an umbrella I would have fallen into

> abject despair. Because it was just her and me, there was no one to save me,

> no one to soften her moods or answer her needs. There was no escape, so for

> me it was better to believe that I was a " bad kid " and that it was my fault

> when I " made mommy mad " . The truth of being utterly dependent on a crazy

> person...many many times worse.

> > >

> >

>

October 1, 2010

I agree, Girlscout...

There is a big difference, too, between knowing that mom is crazy and screaming

it at her.

I suppose we can all only go on what our own experiences have been. For me,

believing that *I* was the crazy one actually did lead me to suicide attempts,

the first when I was 12.

Had someone been willing or able to say to me, " Your mother is batshit

crazy " ...it would have gone a long way towards preventing much of the damage I

am now working so hard to undo. Just having someone confirm to me...it really

is HER, not YOU...would have given me a lot more peace than I had. I think the

coping mechanisms would have kicked in anyway, I am not so sure that knowledge

would have changed those. After all, when I was raped at 17, I *knew* what

happened to me was wrong and I *knew* what it was...and those coping mechanisms

still kicked in to help me cope with the trauma.

I also know that the single biggest help to me was, at 15, when a therapist nada

forced me to see finally just said to me, " You're normal. I promise you.

You're normal and if there is anything abnormal about you it is how well behaved

you are. I'm not going to speculate on why your mother insists you are mentally

ill or rebellious or troubled, but I *am* going to tell you she's wrong. " That,

more than anything, protected my sanity from her abuse.

I also know that when children of abusers or addicts are in therapy/treatment,

the standard is usually to be honest with them about the issue their parent has.

One of my nanny friends recently went through this...she has been employed with

the same family for 17 years now (since their oldest was born). A few years

ago, the father developed a pretty severe drinking problem and it was just an

awful time for everyone...especially because a well intentioned mom and nanny

tried to keep it from the children that daddy's behaviour was the result of

alcoholism. The very first thing they were told to do when he went to inpatient

rehab was to be honest with the children about what daddy's problem was.

Ninera

>

> >

> > Ditto - if I had ever said to mum while she was in a

> rage " youre insane!! "

> > it is highly possible she would have gotten angry

> enough to do anything. Ive

> > actually NEVER had the guts to say it, even as an

> adult. One day I will!

> >

> > We were not allowed to touch the phone, there were no

> neighbours to run to,

> > there was nowhere to go, there was noone to call.

> >

> > If I had known at a young age that mum was completely

> insane, I think I

> > would have killed myself rather than know that the

> craziness wasnt something

> > I could ever " fix " by behaving better. That little

> semblance of control is

> > all you have to keep you sane. When I was about 13 and

> realised that there

> > was something wrong, I could finally fight and run

> fast, even then there was

> > nowhere to go. But during my teen years, if I had been

> educated about this

> > type of mental illness at school, maybe I would have

> had the guts to at

> > least talk to someone about it.

> >

October 1, 2010

I guess the whole dilemma of whether or not to tell a child that her mother or

father is mentally ill, when to tell the child, and under what circumstances is

going to be highly individual depending on several factors, such as:

the age of the child

whether the child lives with the mentally ill parent in the same home

(and vulnerable to physical, emotional, or sexual abuse)

whether there is another, sane, responsible parent or adult living in the

household or not (who is not a dishrag/codependent enabler)

whether the mentally ill parent is violent or not (although emotional abuse

alone is very toxic and damaging)

whether the mentally ill parent is low-functioning or high-functioning (is it

obvious that the parent is mentally ill, or does the pd parent come across as

" perfectly charming " to others)

I know it sounds pessimistic, but KOs who have very high-functioning but

violent, angry, resentful, punitive, sadistic narcissistic/antisocial/ bpd

mothers/fathers and non-confrontational, enabling, co-dependent spouses, we're

pretty much doomed. The family looks " perfect " from the outside, the abuse is

very much hidden, and its " condoned by omission " by the enabling parent.

Covert, hidden abuse by a pd parent who has total, absolute control of the

household and who is violent, well, the kids are basically screwed.

What would have happened to me if my dad had taken me aside at the age of, say,

8, and told me that my mother was very mentally ill and that I was a good kid

and to just leave the house and hide when mom got mad at me, and that was it?

No other change: no divorce, no leaving my mother's care, no dad laying down the

law, everything the same, the only difference being that I would *know* that my

mother was mentally ill and it wasn't that I was a bad, defective, disappointing

excuse for a human being. How would that have affected me?

I'll have to think about it. Pretty much the most life-altering damage was done

to me before I was six, so, I doubt that much would really have changed for me

if I'd been told the truth at eight.

I wonder if knowing that my mother was mentally ill would have made me defy my

mother's authority and become unmanageable myself? Would I have triggered my

nada so badly and frequently that she would have beaten me to death? Or perhaps

I might have run away for real as a teen, who knows? (Sister tried to run away

twice, I just deliberately hid and was " unfindable " around the house, but wished

I was brave enough to run away.) I'd become enmeshed and overly compliant by

eight, that was my survival mechanism.

In any case, I think the decision needs to be tailored to the child's

circumstances, whether home safety and/or removal from the home is available,

the child's age, and other stuff.

-Annie

> >

> > >

> > > Ditto - if I had ever said to mum while she was in a

> > rage " youre insane!! "

> > > it is highly possible she would have gotten angry

> > enough to do anything. Ive

> > > actually NEVER had the guts to say it, even as an

> > adult. One day I will!

> > >

> > > We were not allowed to touch the phone, there were no

> > neighbours to run to,

> > > there was nowhere to go, there was noone to call.

> > >

> > > If I had known at a young age that mum was completely

> > insane, I think I

> > > would have killed myself rather than know that the

> > craziness wasnt something

> > > I could ever " fix " by behaving better. That little

> > semblance of control is

> > > all you have to keep you sane. When I was about 13 and

> > realised that there

> > > was something wrong, I could finally fight and run

> > fast, even then there was

> > > nowhere to go. But during my teen years, if I had been

> > educated about this

> > > type of mental illness at school, maybe I would have

> > had the guts to at

> > > least talk to someone about it.

> > >

>

October 1, 2010

I think it depends on the case and the action plan, I think if you say