Re: The Denial of History: Clinical Implications of...

[Guest guest]

, your thoughts about the " disordered persons' " under pressure "

words for their own benefit is so true. My personal opinion is they have

become so good at pathological lying that they can fool almost anyone. When my

parents were living with my husband and I, they were perfect little angels

in front of my husband, the Avow nurse, the aids, and social services.

They lied right in front of me to them. They all thought my parents were just

sweet little old people. I was viewed as the villain. When my nada was

physically abusing me the first couple of weeks, fada would say " oh, I can't

believe that......she wouldn't do that.......etc. " , then right in front of

him, she kicked me in the groin area and slammed me against the wall. He

advised me the next time I had to tend to her, to take off my glasses!!!!

In other words, it's ok that she's doing that, just protect your eyes!!!

That statement pretty much sums up how sick the 2 of them were and are.

Then my husband would come home from work, knowing what took place, and they

went back to their perfect little angel routines.

My husband and I had a meeting with the Avow Hospice nurse, their Social

Services girl and we finally thought we would get some help with these 2

maniacs. Nada did not attend the meeting; only fada. He sat very calmly,

spoke calmly, lied calmly. My husband and I barely said a word. Honestly, we

were stunned at how calmly fada was lying his butt off right in front of us

- knowing we knew he was lying - almost daring us to challenge him - he

knew he could pull out the " I'am going to have a heart attack, I'am so old

and frail " routine and we weren't going to get into a verbal match with a

professional liar in front of these people.

Fada had refused any type of memory evaluation and by law, makes all the

decisions for he and nada. As long as he isn't declared incapable by a

doctor, they can't force him into a nursing home. It's only a matter of time

before something happens (falls, health) and they will be forced to a nursing

home.

Wow, another rant ....... sorry!

hugs to all,

Laurie

In a message dated 9/25/2010 10:54:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

climberkayak@... writes:

, awesome post - I haven't read the article yet but feel like I

did. Thank in advance Annie for posting it. Your story about the case with

the girl in Oregon was heartbreaking. She almost had freedom and then a judge

who buys into the mommy myth accepted her superficial apologies. Anyone

who really knows a personality disordered person knows that they can under

pressure say the right words that they've come to understand they must say

for their own benefit. But do they understand the meaning and the reasons, do

they take real responsibility, hell no.

One of my posts that disappeared fits a bit on this thread. It was about

how do we screen parents before they have kids. I think how people treat

their pets is incredibly telling as to how they would treat their children. I

notice incredible parallels with those in my FOO - they personalize the

actions of the animal, they attribute human thoughts and motivations, and even

get into ego battles with it! I hate to think of companion animals used

this way as screeners, but if potential parents had to have a cat or a dog

for a year, and be carefully evaluated for how they cared for the animal, how

it reacted to them, and how they *thought* about it a number of people

would be ruled unfit to raise children.

> >

> > I think this is a good read:

> >

> > " Dr. Sorotzkin, a clinical psychologist, makes a powerful case study

for both the prevalence of and the denial of child abuse by parents. While

overt abuse is almost always universally condemned, the author believes that

more subtle forms of child abuse are very common and may have the same

unfortunate effects as grosser forms of mistreatment. "

> >

> > Here's an excerpt:

> >

> > " RANGE OF PARENTING DEFICIENCIES

> >

> > It needs to be emphasized that when we speak of deficiencies in

parenting practices, we are referring to a wide range of phenomena. At one end

of

the spectrum, are the overtly abusive parents, either physically or

emotionally. This includes parents who believe that their children's purpose in

life is to fulfill their own, often immature, emotional needs. They do not

hesitate to manipulate their children's emotions to this end. Even this type

of overt abuse is not always obvious to others, since these same parents

are often very pleasant to other people as they have a strong need to gain

the approval of others.

> >

> > In the mid-range of the spectrum are parents who are not initially

abusive. However, they are rigid and inflexible, and so tend to over-react to

their children's difficulties resulting from learning problems, lack of

motivation, or even normal childhood misbehavior. They tend to see these

problem behaviors in a very negative light, and even more significantly, they

often attribute malicious intent to the child (Dopke & Milner, 2000;

Strassberg, 1997). These parents can often be identified by the negative and

disparaging manner in which they refer to their children: " He's a

self-indulgent

truant " ; " She's a free loader " ; " He's using his learning disability as a

convenient excuse for his laziness " , etc. (This issue is discussed in more

detail in the " Parental Attitudes " section.)

> >

> > At the other, more positive end of the spectrum are parents who are

very caring and giving to their children and rarely have negative

interactions with them. However, they are mostly focused on their children's

behavior

and cognitive development, with little attention paid to their emotional

life. Research has shown that a dismissive attitude on the part of parents to

their children's emotional life has far-reaching negative implications for

their later adjustment (Gottman, Katz, & Hooven, 1996).

> >

> > Children whose feelings are neglected or negated respond by neglecting

their own emotional needs, and focus instead on being well-behaved

(, 1996). Many become perfectionistic, striving to please their parents

at

all costs (Sorotzkin, 1985, 1998). Eventually, and inevitably, it becomes

clear to them that they cannot be perfect, and so they give up their quest

and become depressed and/or act out their resentment and frustration. It is

easy to see that when a rebellious child comes from such a family, it would

be difficult to perceive the connection to his or her family life, since

these families are indeed high-functioning " good families. "

> >

> > Here's the link to the entire article for those interested in reading

more:

> > _http://primal-page.com/sorotzki.htm_

(http://primal-page.com/sorotzki.htm)

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think there is a lot of change that has happened in the way society treats

mentally ill people - now its all about supporting people with mental illness,

families sacrificing everything to support the person who is ill (keep in mind

Im referring to life here in Aus).

I think that is wonderful, lovely and fabulous.

But it doesnt work with disorders like BPD in my opinion. Noone really knows

about BPD, so it seems so " mean " for family to cut contact with the BPD person,

to think of taking their children away, to refuse to do whatever it takes to

" make the person better " , to rrefuse to nurse them when they are old.

It is very very rare to hear of people asking " what about the detrimental effect

the persons metal illness has on their kids? " . Kids are praised for becoming the

parent for their mentally ill parent. Its seen as the right thing to do, that it

makes the child a better person. Sure, its tough on the poor kid, but thats what

families are for!

When my sister was diagnosed with schitzophrenia, the family decided that her

children needed to stay with her because she might hurt herself if they tried to

take them away. The parent's welfare was more important - children will be ok,

they bounce back, relatives are enough positive role models, etc etc.

When I see those children now, 10 years later, there is no doubt in my mind that

living with their mother has been a massive disadvantage for them, and I will be

amazed if they manage to stay out of prison over the next 5 years. They have

never suffered physical or even mental abuse, but having to " look after " their

mentally ill mother from very young ages, and living around her uneducated,

homeless, drug-addicted criminal friends has botched their start in life. It

shouldnt have been like this.

It should have been VERY obvious to teachers and community members that my

mother was mentally ill. Yet nothing happened. When my sister and I ran away

from home at age 13, people assumed it was simply that we were bratty teens.

Noone asked what happened (Mum had held a pair of scissors to my face while

holding me in a headlock in a rage). When friends brough us home, she cried,

asked us what we wanted her to change, pleaded forgiveness, said she would

change. We sat in stunned silence and didnt say a word (it was the first time we

had ever heard her say the word SORRY), we were too terrified. As soon as the

other people left, she beat the living daylights out of us. Not a word she said

was sincere - from then on she would tease us whenever we got upset, with " go

on, run away! I dare you!! " and she would laugh about how funny that was.

Teachers and doctors need to be able to see this disorder for what it is, and

realise that it is NOT in the best interest for ANYONE, much less a defenseless

child, to be in their care. EVER. In the case of BPD, blood is not thicker than

water, family is not better than foster.

>

> , your thoughts about the " disordered persons' " under pressure "

> words for their own benefit is so true. My personal opinion is they have

> become so good at pathological lying that they can fool almost anyone. When

my

> parents were living with my husband and I, they were perfect little angels

> in front of my husband, the Avow nurse, the aids, and social services.

> They lied right in front of me to them. They all thought my parents were

just

> sweet little old people. I was viewed as the villain. When my nada was

> physically abusing me the first couple of weeks, fada would say " oh, I can't

> believe that......she wouldn't do that.......etc. " , then right in front of

> him, she kicked me in the groin area and slammed me against the wall. He

> advised me the next time I had to tend to her, to take off my glasses!!!!

> In other words, it's ok that she's doing that, just protect your eyes!!!

> That statement pretty much sums up how sick the 2 of them were and are.

> Then my husband would come home from work, knowing what took place, and they

> went back to their perfect little angel routines.

>

> My husband and I had a meeting with the Avow Hospice nurse, their Social

> Services girl and we finally thought we would get some help with these 2

> maniacs. Nada did not attend the meeting; only fada. He sat very calmly,

> spoke calmly, lied calmly. My husband and I barely said a word. Honestly, we

> were stunned at how calmly fada was lying his butt off right in front of us

> - knowing we knew he was lying - almost daring us to challenge him - he

> knew he could pull out the " I'am going to have a heart attack, I'am so old

> and frail " routine and we weren't going to get into a verbal match with a

> professional liar in front of these people.

>

> Fada had refused any type of memory evaluation and by law, makes all the

> decisions for he and nada. As long as he isn't declared incapable by a

> doctor, they can't force him into a nursing home. It's only a matter of time

> before something happens (falls, health) and they will be forced to a nursing

> home.

>

> Wow, another rant ....... sorry!

> hugs to all,

> Laurie

>

>

[Guest guest]

What ghastly experiences you had at your mother's hands, and your sister's

children as well. In my opinion, you all endured horrific abuse, and should

have been rescued. Expecting small children to take over adult responsibilities

for their schizophrenic parent, and exposing children to death threats by

parents who hold sharp objects to their child's throat... um... yes, that is

most definitely traumatizing and abusive.

I think you're right that the pendulum has swung over into the extreme end of

giving those with diagnosed mental illnesses freedom of self-determination, but

as you point out, that tends to throw the burden of caring for the mentally ill

onto their families. It also tends to throw the minor children of the mentally

ill " under the bus. "

To me that's like saying, " Aw, the poor doggie, he has rabies. That's so sad,

he doesn't deserve to be sick like that with rabies. Go play with the doggie,

honey. Its OK. Go on, just don't let him bite you, OK? That's a good girl! " No

sane adult would deliberately leave a little child alone with a rabid dog, but

children are apparently routinely left with psychotic, violent, abusive,

negligent, corrupting, exploitative, mentally ill parents. Go figure.

It seems to me that there is no perfect solution to the problem of mental

illness and how it affects the family and society. In earlier

decades/centuries, the mentally ill had few if any rights and could be

incarcerated in hospitals indefinitely. That's wrong. But now, the mentally ill

are encouraged to become a productive member of society and raise their

children, but with little or no supervision the kids are guaranteed to be

damaged by severe neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse and

exploitation. And that's oh, so wrong too.

I hope that future generations will figure out some middle ground,, like,

perhaps, small group homes for three or 4 mentally ill parents with kids, that

includes trained, paid supervisors, so it would be sort of like " foster care for

families impacted by mental illness " .

But from everything I hear, the foster-care system we currently have really

sucks, so, that's probably not such a great idea.

Me personally, I'm for whatever is in the child's best interest. If that means

removal from a mentally ill parent, then so be it. The child's welfare should

have the priority no matter what.

-Annie

> >

> > , your thoughts about the " disordered persons' " under pressure "

> > words for their own benefit is so true. My personal opinion is they have

> > become so good at pathological lying that they can fool almost anyone.

When my

> > parents were living with my husband and I, they were perfect little angels

> > in front of my husband, the Avow nurse, the aids, and social services.

> > They lied right in front of me to them. They all thought my parents were

just

> > sweet little old people. I was viewed as the villain. When my nada was

> > physically abusing me the first couple of weeks, fada would say " oh, I

can't

> > believe that......she wouldn't do that.......etc. " , then right in front of

> > him, she kicked me in the groin area and slammed me against the wall. He

> > advised me the next time I had to tend to her, to take off my glasses!!!!

> > In other words, it's ok that she's doing that, just protect your eyes!!!

> > That statement pretty much sums up how sick the 2 of them were and are.

> > Then my husband would come home from work, knowing what took place, and

they

> > went back to their perfect little angel routines.

> >

> > My husband and I had a meeting with the Avow Hospice nurse, their Social

> > Services girl and we finally thought we would get some help with these 2

> > maniacs. Nada did not attend the meeting; only fada. He sat very calmly,

> > spoke calmly, lied calmly. My husband and I barely said a word. Honestly,

we

> > were stunned at how calmly fada was lying his butt off right in front of us

> > - knowing we knew he was lying - almost daring us to challenge him - he

> > knew he could pull out the " I'am going to have a heart attack, I'am so old

> > and frail " routine and we weren't going to get into a verbal match with a

> > professional liar in front of these people.

> >

> > Fada had refused any type of memory evaluation and by law, makes all the

> > decisions for he and nada. As long as he isn't declared incapable by a

> > doctor, they can't force him into a nursing home. It's only a matter of

time

> > before something happens (falls, health) and they will be forced to a

nursing

> > home.

> >

> > Wow, another rant ....... sorry!

> > hugs to all,

> > Laurie

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Its definitely a tricky issue.

With my sisters kids, neighbours have complained to Child Services numerous

times, nothing has ever been done. Her son told me the other day that the kids

in his class save him their leftover from lunch so he has enough to eat. He

thought that was great, he got to eat things he never got at home - it broke my

heart. But the department knows all about it, has done for years, and they wont

take and info from me - I only see them once every 6 months. I have no idea

what, or if, I should do anything.

As the kids arent being physically abused and have clothes on heir backs (that

the rest of us provide), the consider there is no problem. They have bigger

problems to deal with, this is small bikkies to them.

>

> What ghastly experiences you had at your mother's hands, and your sister's

children as well. In my opinion, you all endured horrific abuse, and should

have been rescued. Expecting small children to take over adult responsibilities

for their schizophrenic parent, and exposing children to death threats by

parents who hold sharp objects to their child's throat... um... yes, that is

most definitely traumatizing and abusive.

>

> I think you're right that the pendulum has swung over into the extreme end of

giving those with diagnosed mental illnesses freedom of self-determination, but

as you point out, that tends to throw the burden of caring for the mentally ill

onto their families. It also tends to throw the minor children of the mentally

ill " under the bus. "

>

> To me that's like saying, " Aw, the poor doggie, he has rabies. That's so sad,

he doesn't deserve to be sick like that with rabies. Go play with the doggie,

honey. Its OK. Go on, just don't let him bite you, OK? That's a good girl! " No

sane adult would deliberately leave a little child alone with a rabid dog, but

children are apparently routinely left with psychotic, violent, abusive,

negligent, corrupting, exploitative, mentally ill parents. Go figure.

>

> It seems to me that there is no perfect solution to the problem of mental

illness and how it affects the family and society. In earlier

decades/centuries, the mentally ill had few if any rights and could be

incarcerated in hospitals indefinitely. That's wrong. But now, the mentally ill

are encouraged to become a productive member of society and raise their

children, but with little or no supervision the kids are guaranteed to be

damaged by severe neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse and

exploitation. And that's oh, so wrong too.

>

> I hope that future generations will figure out some middle ground,, like,

perhaps, small group homes for three or 4 mentally ill parents with kids, that

includes trained, paid supervisors, so it would be sort of like " foster care for

families impacted by mental illness " .

> But from everything I hear, the foster-care system we currently have really

sucks, so, that's probably not such a great idea.

>

> Me personally, I'm for whatever is in the child's best interest. If that

means removal from a mentally ill parent, then so be it. The child's welfare

should have the priority no matter what.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

It seems like, unfortunately, in so many cases, its only money that talks. If

someone with big bucks were to hire a pricey law firm to put together a case for

the kids, pile up the evidence by obtaining the relatives', neighbors' and

schoolmates' testimony as witnesses, and if there were a ready, safe place for

the kids to relocate to, then there might be a chance to rescue them.

But the broken social services systems like Children's Services and other

government agencies that are supposed to protect kids are all apparently so

overwhelmed and understaffed that they can only deal with the very worst of the

worst cases of abuse and neglect. It must be like a natural disaster out there,

huge numbers of cases piling up and nobody to handle them. The guy with his arm

bone sticking out of his flesh just gets taped up to wait in agony with hundreds

of other casualties while someone impaled through the chest gets taken first.

So the " medium " and " light " grades of parental abuse get triaged out: ignored

by necessity.

Its just so tragic that more resources can't be allocated to the prevention of

child abuse and the rescue and protection of abused kids.

-Annie

> >

> > What ghastly experiences you had at your mother's hands, and your sister's

children as well. In my opinion, you all endured horrific abuse, and should

have been rescued. Expecting small children to take over adult responsibilities

for their schizophrenic parent, and exposing children to death threats by

parents who hold sharp objects to their child's throat... um... yes, that is

most definitely traumatizing and abusive.

> >

> > I think you're right that the pendulum has swung over into the extreme end

of giving those with diagnosed mental illnesses freedom of self-determination,

but as you point out, that tends to throw the burden of caring for the mentally

ill onto their families. It also tends to throw the minor children of the

mentally ill " under the bus. "

> >

> > To me that's like saying, " Aw, the poor doggie, he has rabies. That's so

sad, he doesn't deserve to be sick like that with rabies. Go play with the

doggie, honey. Its OK. Go on, just don't let him bite you, OK? That's a good

girl! " No sane adult would deliberately leave a little child alone with a rabid

dog, but children are apparently routinely left with psychotic, violent,

abusive, negligent, corrupting, exploitative, mentally ill parents. Go figure.

> >

> > It seems to me that there is no perfect solution to the problem of mental

illness and how it affects the family and society. In earlier

decades/centuries, the mentally ill had few if any rights and could be

incarcerated in hospitals indefinitely. That's wrong. But now, the mentally ill

are encouraged to become a productive member of society and raise their

children, but with little or no supervision the kids are guaranteed to be

damaged by severe neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse and

exploitation. And that's oh, so wrong too.

> >

> > I hope that future generations will figure out some middle ground,, like,

perhaps, small group homes for three or 4 mentally ill parents with kids, that

includes trained, paid supervisors, so it would be sort of like " foster care for

families impacted by mental illness " .

> > But from everything I hear, the foster-care system we currently have really

sucks, so, that's probably not such a great idea.

> >

> > Me personally, I'm for whatever is in the child's best interest. If that

means removal from a mentally ill parent, then so be it. The child's welfare

should have the priority no matter what.

> >

> > -Annie

>