Re: Siblings---fleas vs actual disorder question

October 1, 2010

Yes, my brother is a douche a lot like yours. Equal parts possessive of me

and hateful even murderous toward me. I cut him out of my life one day, just

super clean and easy after he stood me up for a lunch appointment. He

e-mails once in a while to order me to do this or that for the family - get

back into your role right now young lady. I ignore it. His new wife (I've

been NC so long I didn't even know he got married) got in on the act and

started sending me Facebook hatemail, we weren't friends but she used the

message feature. I documented every word, sent it to the local PD and had

them pay her a visit to let her know I would pursue stalking charges to

every extent possible if I ever heard from her again.

My advice, forget about your brother and worry about yourself. He can do

what he wants with his life, his time, his wife, his music, and his stuff.

Focus on you. That's what I do. When my brother pops into my mind I kind of

tell myself to let him go with god - or the devil, or shiva or whoever and

then I turn my mind back to my own responsibilities, decisions, joys, pains

and loves.

So that's my 2 cents. Yeah, I know what its like to have a brother who would

love to kill you and a sister in law (you've never seen in your life) who

sends you threats. . . . but the reality it, if they touched one hair on my

head, I would pursue the law to the fullest possible extent and then some.

I also have a rottweiler and a 300 lb boyfriend - but most importantly, I

can be one mean son of a bitch when someone pushes me into a corner and I

come out fighting. And I leave scars, marks, and police records. My brother

actually really pisses me off. . . but I don't have the energy to care about

him, so I choose life over hate in this case.

Hugs and good luck

Girlscout

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:22 AM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

> Sorry,folks,I'm not feeling very articulate about this,so if you could bear

> with me...

>

> Do any of you have a sibling you believe to be actually personality

> disordered and not just flea ridden? If that isn't based on a professional

> diagnosis,what is it or was it that sort of clinched the deal for you that

> your sibling has a personality disorder rather than fleas?

>

> I've suspected for a while now that my brother is as Cluster B as our

> parents but it's more of a gut feeling that doesn't go away even when I

> reason to myself that he had PD behavior modelled to him and as the " all

> good " didn't and doesn't have the same motivation as I did/do as the " all

> bad " to acknowledge that there is something wrong in our FOO.Even though I

> can see how our parents also appropriated *his* soul/self--as far as I can

> tell,he has yet to really notice or know this.

>

> Although I'm NC with him I've continued to hold out the (probably slim)

> hope that one day we could possibly reconcile in truth about our

> parents.Right now he doesn't believe there is anything wrong with our

> parents.He particularly idealizes nada.He's forty one.He views me the same

> exact way nada did when we were growing up: as selfish and evil.He doesn't

> trust me one iota.

>

> But he has also used me the same way our parents did--for example,he's a

> musician and a few years ago I passed his CD to a friend (closer to an

> acquaintance really,not a close close friend) whose husband manages a large

> concert venue and he liked it so much he invited my brother to participate

> in a festival there.Which I found out when my friend mentioned it to me one

> day when we ran into eachother,which was quite embarassing because at first

> I had no idea what she was talking about while she was assuming I knew my

> brother was on the bill.This was before I went NC and at a time when I was

> doing errands for our parents and visiting with them,being a " good

> daughter " .He knew damn well he'd gotten that gig because I was the one who

> gave his CD to a musical director but he never bothered to call me to let me

> know he was playing that festival--I mean,just to tell me the good news,let

> alone invite me to come see him perform.Also,I had hooked him up with

> someone who does a radio show that is broadcast nationally and he got on the

> show and was invited back several times--to hear him talk about his

> participation on that radio show,you'd think he'd made that contact

> himself.Sometimes I have even wondered if that is how he's rewritten it in

> his own mind.He has never once acknowledged my effort on his behalf,it's as

> if I did nothing.He has a website for his songs--back when I was trying to

> help him and promote him I got some people who genuinely liked his music to

> write in positive comments/reviews on his website.He took those particular

> comments off,erased them right off the website,even though they were linked

> to reviews of his CD on Amazon.

>

> There's a pattern of this kind of behavior stretching all the way back to

> when we were kids--he betrayed me often but wasn't what I'd call a habitual

> bully and at one point in our early teens we actually became friends and

> would hang out together.And more of a pattern once we were adults,with him

> being more of a bully emotionally.But could that be fleas? How can you tell

> the difference between fleas and PD when it's someone else and not you?

>

> He's married to a woman who has many narcissistic traits and is quite the

> Queen.She also disdains me.One year at Xmas she gave me a bottle of not very

> good wine as if it was a gift she had selected just for me (so I pretended

> to be pleased) then at the next Thanksgiving brought the same not very good

> wine to the dinner with: " We still have a whole case of this cheap plonk in

> the cellar,we just can't seem to get rid of it... " Ouch.It had been given to

> them--she had given me a recycled " gift " .And apparently forgot since she

> said that right in front of me.My brother idealizes her just like he does

> with nada.

>

> He also has lied to me right through his teeth on several occasions and is

> obsessed,I mean obsessed,with impressing other people.Even people he'll

> likely never see again,such as sales clerks in stores.Fada loved to tell the

> story of how when my brother took him to buy a computer (about three years

> ago),he put one of his own CDs into the sound system and had his music

> playing across the whole store and how,in fada's telling of the tale,the

> salesman was totally wowed.When fada was in the hospital and later in the

> hospice my brother spent more time chatting with and sort of " seducing "

> every passing nurse and even the aides than he did talking to fada but that

> was ok because it gave fada a thrill to see how much " everyone " just " loved "

> my brother.My brother who might smile charmingly and throw out some light

> hearted chit chat at a nurse going by then turn on a dime to glower over at

> me.A couple of years earlier when fada had had open heart surgery my brother

> threatened to kill me because he was angry I brought my dog along with me to

> fada's house to collect some mail for him when he was in the hospital and he

> saw me sitting watching tv for a moment with her to relax after I'd been at

> the hospital for hours.Stopping home to get my dog and sitting down to watch

> tv meant,to him,that I only cared about myself.When he made a sarcastic

> comment in that vein and I asked him what his problem was,he said, " I should

> kill you right now,I swear to god I'll kill you right now if you say

> anything else. " He meant it,too,like if he could get away with it,he

> would.That is just like nada.Ever since then I have avoided,as much as I

> can,ever being alone with him.

>

> Oh anyway thanks for letting me rant.This has been bothering me alot all

> week.I'm not sure why.I think it's something I need to come to terms with

> and haven't yet,that most probably I'm never going to have a

> brother,either,just like I never had parents.

>

> If anyone would like to share from their own experience of how they

> differentiated sibling fleas from sibling PD,I'd appreciate your feedback.Or

> how you set the criteria for keeping your distance,if you do,even if you're

> not entirely sure your sibling is a hopeless PD case.I think my hope for

> possible reconciliation is clouding my judgment here,plus in my heart he's

> still my little brother and I want to see him as more sickened than outright

> sick.

>

> At any rate,thanks for letting me vent

>

October 1, 2010

I hadn't read that post of yours before, (I was away from the list for

a long time, a while back) but to me your brother sounds like equal parts

brilliant/talented + very likely psychopathic.

Its like he has an agenda or is following a script that goes something like,

" is dirt, Mom said so. I want to honor Mom, and therefor its OK for me

to persecute, ignore, and vilify and maybe kill her a little, if I can

get away with it. " And he's sticking to this script no matter what the evidence

is to the contrary: that you have actually shown him kindness by going out of

your way to help him.

Me personally, I agree that its just wise to take death threats from him

seriously. It doesn't really matter if its because of " fleas " (nurture) or

because he was unlucky and wound up with the abnormal brain of a psychopath due

to the bad luck of the genetic roulette wheel (nature). I hope you will

continue to avoid ever being alone with him.

And I would not trust any " miraculous epiphany " he might have, either. Not for

years, at any rate. Stay protected until he can prove by a decade of normal

behavior toward you that its genuine.

And GS, that is awesome that your " HOW DARE YOU! " mechanism is alive and

well-functioning. I agree that standing up to bullies and giving them a strong,

clear message to BACK OFF is the way to deal with them because most bullies are

also cowards.

Its the psychopathic bullies you have to worry about, the ones who feel

compelled to revenge themselves against you when you slap them on the nose,

giving them a " narcissistic injury. " I've had to deal with two different creepy

people who stalked me at different times earlier in my life, and its just not

something anyone wants to go through.

-Annie

>

> >

> > Sorry,folks,I'm not feeling very articulate about this,so if you could bear

> > with me...

> >

> > Do any of you have a sibling you believe to be actually personality

> > disordered and not just flea ridden? If that isn't based on a professional

> > diagnosis,what is it or was it that sort of clinched the deal for you that

> > your sibling has a personality disorder rather than fleas?

> >

> > I've suspected for a while now that my brother is as Cluster B as our

> > parents but it's more of a gut feeling that doesn't go away even when I

> > reason to myself that he had PD behavior modelled to him and as the " all

> > good " didn't and doesn't have the same motivation as I did/do as the " all

> > bad " to acknowledge that there is something wrong in our FOO.Even though I

> > can see how our parents also appropriated *his* soul/self--as far as I can

> > tell,he has yet to really notice or know this.

> >

> > Although I'm NC with him I've continued to hold out the (probably slim)

> > hope that one day we could possibly reconcile in truth about our

> > parents.Right now he doesn't believe there is anything wrong with our

> > parents.He particularly idealizes nada.He's forty one.He views me the same

> > exact way nada did when we were growing up: as selfish and evil.He doesn't

> > trust me one iota.

> >

> > But he has also used me the same way our parents did--for example,he's a

> > musician and a few years ago I passed his CD to a friend (closer to an

> > acquaintance really,not a close close friend) whose husband manages a large

> > concert venue and he liked it so much he invited my brother to participate

> > in a festival there.Which I found out when my friend mentioned it to me one

> > day when we ran into eachother,which was quite embarassing because at first

> > I had no idea what she was talking about while she was assuming I knew my

> > brother was on the bill.This was before I went NC and at a time when I was

> > doing errands for our parents and visiting with them,being a " good

> > daughter " .He knew damn well he'd gotten that gig because I was the one who

> > gave his CD to a musical director but he never bothered to call me to let me

> > know he was playing that festival--I mean,just to tell me the good news,let

> > alone invite me to come see him perform.Also,I had hooked him up with

> > someone who does a radio show that is broadcast nationally and he got on the

> > show and was invited back several times--to hear him talk about his

> > participation on that radio show,you'd think he'd made that contact

> > himself.Sometimes I have even wondered if that is how he's rewritten it in

> > his own mind.He has never once acknowledged my effort on his behalf,it's as

> > if I did nothing.He has a website for his songs--back when I was trying to

> > help him and promote him I got some people who genuinely liked his music to

> > write in positive comments/reviews on his website.He took those particular

> > comments off,erased them right off the website,even though they were linked

> > to reviews of his CD on Amazon.

> >

> > There's a pattern of this kind of behavior stretching all the way back to

> > when we were kids--he betrayed me often but wasn't what I'd call a habitual

> > bully and at one point in our early teens we actually became friends and

> > would hang out together.And more of a pattern once we were adults,with him

> > being more of a bully emotionally.But could that be fleas? How can you tell

> > the difference between fleas and PD when it's someone else and not you?

> >

> > He's married to a woman who has many narcissistic traits and is quite the

> > Queen.She also disdains me.One year at Xmas she gave me a bottle of not very

> > good wine as if it was a gift she had selected just for me (so I pretended

> > to be pleased) then at the next Thanksgiving brought the same not very good

> > wine to the dinner with: " We still have a whole case of this cheap plonk in

> > the cellar,we just can't seem to get rid of it... " Ouch.It had been given to

> > them--she had given me a recycled " gift " .And apparently forgot since she

> > said that right in front of me.My brother idealizes her just like he does

> > with nada.

> >

> > He also has lied to me right through his teeth on several occasions and is

> > obsessed,I mean obsessed,with impressing other people.Even people he'll

> > likely never see again,such as sales clerks in stores.Fada loved to tell the

> > story of how when my brother took him to buy a computer (about three years

> > ago),he put one of his own CDs into the sound system and had his music

> > playing across the whole store and how,in fada's telling of the tale,the

> > salesman was totally wowed.When fada was in the hospital and later in the

> > hospice my brother spent more time chatting with and sort of " seducing "

> > every passing nurse and even the aides than he did talking to fada but that

> > was ok because it gave fada a thrill to see how much " everyone " just " loved "

> > my brother.My brother who might smile charmingly and throw out some light

> > hearted chit chat at a nurse going by then turn on a dime to glower over at

> > me.A couple of years earlier when fada had had open heart surgery my brother

> > threatened to kill me because he was angry I brought my dog along with me to

> > fada's house to collect some mail for him when he was in the hospital and he

> > saw me sitting watching tv for a moment with her to relax after I'd been at

> > the hospital for hours.Stopping home to get my dog and sitting down to watch

> > tv meant,to him,that I only cared about myself.When he made a sarcastic

> > comment in that vein and I asked him what his problem was,he said, " I should

> > kill you right now,I swear to god I'll kill you right now if you say

> > anything else. " He meant it,too,like if he could get away with it,he

> > would.That is just like nada.Ever since then I have avoided,as much as I

> > can,ever being alone with him.

> >

> > Oh anyway thanks for letting me rant.This has been bothering me alot all

> > week.I'm not sure why.I think it's something I need to come to terms with

> > and haven't yet,that most probably I'm never going to have a

> > brother,either,just like I never had parents.

> >

> > If anyone would like to share from their own experience of how they

> > differentiated sibling fleas from sibling PD,I'd appreciate your feedback.Or

> > how you set the criteria for keeping your distance,if you do,even if you're

> > not entirely sure your sibling is a hopeless PD case.I think my hope for

> > possible reconciliation is clouding my judgment here,plus in my heart he's

> > still my little brother and I want to see him as more sickened than outright

> > sick.

> >

> > At any rate,thanks for letting me vent

> >

>

October 1, 2010

Yep got me an EVIL sis.

When I first found out about BPD I told her that my counselor said our Nada had

it along with NPD. Evil sis thought that of course poor Nada was not BPD/NPD,

but still I was able to get her to read Understanding The Borderline

Mother...she did agree that our Nada did match the queen/witch. I was excited

and thought I had someone I could confide in, someone in my corner with my NC of

our Nada. I thought because my evil sis always talked about going to counseling

for herself she would be interested in understanding this as well, but she is

pretty much neutral about it, and now after 3 years of NC with Nada we don't

even talk about it anymore. Why would she want my Nada and I to repair our

relationship??? She is reaping all the benefits of me being out of the picture

with both our (divorced) parents. She can lie, steal, and cheat both of them

without me calling her out on her shit. She is horrible to my Nada verbally and

sometimes physically, and has had the whole family walking on eggshells for

years. She calls all the shots, who can visit who and where, where Christmas

should be celebrated and with whom etc. She manipulates my poor father, leading

him around by his nose, sickeningly sweet of course, all the while she has her

hand in his wallet. I know my sister is BPD diagnosed or not!!! She is a royal

bitch 2nd to her queen Nada, is nice as pie one minute, and as evil as serpent

the next.

The can have each other......my guess is that they will turn on each other

eventually and in the meantime I will have grown, flourished, and moved on,

mentally, physically, and most important, spiritually!!!

We are free....they are not!!! drlingirl

October 1, 2010

(())

Your situation is very painful, I understand, I went through the same thing with

my NPD brother. He was horribly abusive, horrible, including death threats

against me, vandalizing my image in family photos, stealing my car, and verbal,

physical, and financial abuse. As if this wasn't enough evidence that he was

NPD, I finally saw the light when I did this exercise below. I too wanted to

believe there was hope for my brother.

My therapist gave me this helpful checklist:

Is Your Difficult Person Narcissistic?

1. Self-absorbed (acts like everything is all about him/her)

2. Entitled (makes the rules; breaks the rules)

3. Demeaning (puts you down, bullies)

4. Demanding (of whatever he/she wants)

5. Distrustful (suspicious of your motives when you are beng nice to him/her)

6. Perfectionistic (rigidly high standards - his/her way or no way)

7. Snobbish (believes he/she is superior to you and others; gets bored easily)

8. Approval seeking (craves constant praise and recognition)

9. Unempathetic (uninterested in understanding your inner experience, or unable

to do so)

10. Unremorseful (cannot offer a genuine apology)

11. Compulsive (gets overly consumed with details and minutia)

12. Addictive (cannot let go of bad habits; uses them to self-soothe)

13. Emotionaly detached (steers clear of feelings)

My brother meets all of these criteria in spades. From what you describe it

sounds like yours might also. I am sorry for this. You seem to be highly

intelligent so I don't think it's a surprise to you when I say that these people

will never change..... and this hurts, badly.

You lost your brother the moment he was born into your family under your nada.

It's not your fault, and it might be time to let him go and accept that he's

probably a lost cause forever.

My criteria for keeping my distance from my NPD bada is to always repeat the

mantra " Never trust him, above all, never trust him " This allows me to keep NC

and never forget that even when he's acting nice, he's got alterior motives....

this is my experience 100% of the time. Sometimes I want to let my guard down

when he tries to break NC and, say, leaves a happy b day msg or something like

that, I feel bad and then I want to be nice in return; however it will only

backfire. Eg: he'll want more contact, and then a favour from me, and then he'll

take advantage, a fight will ensue, and i'll get abused.... and the cycle

continues. NPD's can't stop, they don't know any other way. So never, ever trust

him. Above all, they are cruel.

October 1, 2010

Thank you so much,HB.That checklist is great,it's very concise.It helped to

clarify.And,yes,my brother meets all the criteria.What struck me as I pondered

the checklist is that my brother's behavior is all strange exaggerations of what

could pass for normal if you didn't know him well.Like number 8,Approval

Seeking: he *appears* superficially to just be a really out going,chatty kind of

guy but from having watched him in action so many times I *know* that he's not

just being friendly and just enjoying the social exchange for its own sake in a

normal out going way--he's compulsively fishing for praise and recognition.It's

hard to explain because it's both subtle and obvious! Like when he goes into a

store he needs to impress the sales clerks by showing off to them that he knows

more about their wares than they do but while he's doing that he's being

disarmingly friendly even though he's sort of insulting them with his display of

" superior knowledge " .It's abnormal because it's like why is it so vitally

important to you that a salesman in a computer store for example who you're

probably never going to see again thinks you're awesomely knowledgable? I can

understand wanting to have a fun chit chat with a sales clerk to enliven your

shopping trip but not why receiving personal praise and recognition from them

would even matter.He does variations of this with *everybody*--every single

person he meets no matter how superficially has to see him as praiseworthy and

exceptionally awesome and he *has* to win them over or impress them.It seems

like much more of a control thing to me or a compulsion than actual outgoing

friendliness because it's all about him really;the other person is always only

incidental since anyone will do.

The scary thing is that it's all only a mask or a persona because when

he leaves the computer store for example he will walk across the parking lot

denigrating the very salesman he'd just worked so hard to impress: That guy was

completely pathetic,he knew nothing about X or Y computer

application/gadget/upgrade etc,they must have hired him directly from Burger

King ha ha ha...Like that...

Good lord,that does sound like NPD...

Thank you for sharing your mantra--any time my brother is nice to me

he has an ulterior motive too.It's never truly sincere.I feel in my bones,and

have actually felt this in my bones since we were little kids,that I can never

really trust him.Trying to trust him has backfired for me too time and again

because it invariably ends in some kind of betrayal.

And oh,thank you too for sharing about vandalizing your image in

family photos.I remember you posting about that and your bada's mega

creepy,disturbing behavior.I do think that that even on its own is

significant,the weird and abnormal control thing with images of us.It's like

this sick voodoo thing and when I read that one part of your sentence I was

like: Oh my god,I remember when Hellfire posted about that! and something

finally clicked because for our fada's memorial service my brother did a

computer display of family photos that ran continuously on several monitors

through out the service.He didn't efface me from the photographs but it's like a

similar sick voodoo thing because what he was doing was *using* my image in

photos with fada to make him appear to be an actual father but he did this with

absolutely NO regard for my feelings.He didn't even involve me beforehand in

choosing the photos with him--he simply never mentioned it to me at all and it

was only once the service was happening that I even knew he'd put together the

display.One of the photos was of fada carrying me (and laughing) when I was five

and had a cast on my leg after *he* had broken it,long story.To everyone else

there,it was a photo of a father carrying his injured daughter but for me it was

a reminder of the day when *fada* had broken my leg.It was like: you

are utterly alone in your awareness of the truth and I dare you,I effing defy

you,to ruin Dad's memorial service by speaking your truth to anyone present

while the pastor I hired to speak without consulting you gives a eulogy about

how wonderful Dad was as this fatherly image comes up again and again on the

monitors and everyone here is shedding sentimental tears for him and admiring my

photo retrospective of his life.Go ahead.Speak up,see how receptive everyone's

gonna be to you.Or,you can just bend to my will and put up and shut up.It was

like: checkmate,I win.Gotcha.There was another photo in the display of me at

about three with my arm in a cast,a fracture I had,another long story.Sitting in

fada's lap--another injury right there on public display that was being ignored

because the event was all about how great fada was.It was like an emotional

battering/battening down of me via this using of images of me--with no

forewarning that this theft/misappropriation of my reality/experience/image was

going to occur at a moment when I was very vulnerable and caught unawares.What

he did to me that day was abusive.

Sorry to go on and on.Thanks again for your post.Yes,it does hurt

badly but I also do need to accept that unless *he* makes an effort to change

(which won't happen if he's NPD),I need to let him go as a brother because he is

not one.

I appreciate your feedback and understanding so very much,it's more

helpful than I can say.You're an amazing person to have come out of that awful

environment with such clarity of mind and spirit.It's truly your FOO's loss that

they are so sick they simply do not deserve you--and truly you deserved much

better than you got.You're a diamond

>

> (())

>

> Your situation is very painful, I understand, I went through the same thing

with my NPD brother. He was horribly abusive, horrible, including death threats

against me, vandalizing my image in family photos, stealing my car, and verbal,

physical, and financial abuse. As if this wasn't enough evidence that he was

NPD, I finally saw the light when I did this exercise below. I too wanted to

believe there was hope for my brother.

>

> My therapist gave me this helpful checklist:

>

> Is Your Difficult Person Narcissistic?

>

> 1. Self-absorbed (acts like everything is all about him/her)

> 2. Entitled (makes the rules; breaks the rules)

> 3. Demeaning (puts you down, bullies)

> 4. Demanding (of whatever he/she wants)

> 5. Distrustful (suspicious of your motives when you are beng nice to him/her)

> 6. Perfectionistic (rigidly high standards - his/her way or no way)

> 7. Snobbish (believes he/she is superior to you and others; gets bored easily)

> 8. Approval seeking (craves constant praise and recognition)

> 9. Unempathetic (uninterested in understanding your inner experience, or

unable to do so)

> 10. Unremorseful (cannot offer a genuine apology)

> 11. Compulsive (gets overly consumed with details and minutia)

> 12. Addictive (cannot let go of bad habits; uses them to self-soothe)

> 13. Emotionaly detached (steers clear of feelings)

>

> My brother meets all of these criteria in spades. From what you describe it

sounds like yours might also. I am sorry for this. You seem to be highly

intelligent so I don't think it's a surprise to you when I say that these people

will never change..... and this hurts, badly.

>

> You lost your brother the moment he was born into your family under your nada.

It's not your fault, and it might be time to let him go and accept that he's

probably a lost cause forever.

>

> My criteria for keeping my distance from my NPD bada is to always repeat the