Re: I'm no therapist (yet), but....

[Guest guest]

I have heard that before, yes.

>

>

>

>

> Do you all think that BPD is misdiagnosed for bipolar an awful lot? I have a

friend who is clearly BPD and so is her 15 year old son. When I told her what

BPD was, because she had never heard of it, she looked it up and called me back

and was saying, " OMG, , this is so me! " I knew it. I've got several

friends who have recently been diagnosed as bipolar that I know are BPD.

Obviously I'm not an expert, but why do clinicians do this so much?

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My guess is that bipolar diagnosis is being underwritten by the pharmaceutical

complex. They've got drugs, specific lucrative drugs that are given with a

bipolar diagnosis. This isn't true for BPD. Also, there's huge stigma

attached to BPD so maybe the clinician imagines they are doing the person a

favor somehow.

>

>

>

>

> Do you all think that BPD is misdiagnosed for bipolar an awful lot? I have a

friend who is clearly BPD and so is her 15 year old son. When I told her what

BPD was, because she had never heard of it, she looked it up and called me back

and was saying, " OMG, , this is so me! " I knew it. I've got several

friends who have recently been diagnosed as bipolar that I know are BPD.

Obviously I'm not an expert, but why do clinicians do this so much?

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What is the stigma?

Re: I'm no therapist (yet), but....

My guess is that bipolar diagnosis is being underwritten by the pharmaceutical

complex. They've got drugs, specific lucrative drugs that are given with a

bipolar diagnosis. This isn't true for BPD. Also, there's huge stigma attached

to BPD so maybe the clinician imagines they are doing the person a favor

somehow.

>

>

>

>

> Do you all think that BPD is misdiagnosed for bipolar an awful lot? I have a

friend who is clearly BPD and so is her 15 year old son. When I told her what

BPD was, because she had never heard of it, she looked it up and called me back

and was saying, " OMG, , this is so me! " I knew it. I've got several friends

who have recently been diagnosed as bipolar that I know are BPD. Obviously I'm

not an expert, but why do clinicians do this so much?

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

the stigma is, borderlines " never " get better, and they can't be " fixed " with

medication

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Do you all think that BPD is misdiagnosed for bipolar an awful lot? I have a

friend who is clearly BPD and so is her 15 year old son. When I told her what

BPD was, because she had never heard of it, she looked it up and called me back

and was saying, " OMG, , this is so me! " I knew it. I've got several friends

who have recently been diagnosed as bipolar that I know are BPD. Obviously I'm

not an expert, but why do clinicians do this so much?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

it makes me sad..for them and for us.

Re: I'm no therapist (yet), but....

the stigma is, borderlines " never " get better, and they can't be " fixed " with

medication

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Do you all think that BPD is misdiagnosed for bipolar an awful lot? I have a

friend who is clearly BPD and so is her 15 year old son. When I told her what

BPD was, because she had never heard of it, she looked it up and called me back

and was saying, " OMG, , this is so me! " I knew it. I've got several friends

who have recently been diagnosed as bipolar that I know are BPD. Obviously I'm

not an expert, but why do clinicians do this so much?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure I understand the classifications in the DSM-iv entirely, but I

think the Axis I disorders are considered treatable with both talk therapy and

drug therapy. Axis I disorders include things like psychotic disorders, mood

disorders and anxiety disorders. Statistically, mental illnesses like

schizophrenia and depression respond well to drug treatment and psychological

therapy.

The Axis II disorders are the personality disorders and mental

retardation; and these are considered not treatable.

This is because, according to this article on personality disorder RE the DSM-IV

at Wikipedia:

" ...personality disorders are inflexible and pervasive across many situations,

due in large part to the fact that such behavior is ego-syntonic (i.e. the

patterns are consistent with the ego integrity of the individual) and are,

therefore, perceived to be appropriate by that individual.

The onset of these patterns of behavior can typically be traced back to late

adolescence and the beginning of adulthood and, in rarer instances,

childhood.[1] It is therefore unlikely that a diagnosis of personality disorder

will be appropriate before the age of 16 or 17 years. General diagnostic

guidelines applying to all personality disorders are presented below;

supplementary descriptions are provided with each of the subtypes.

Diagnosis of personality disorders can be very subjective; however, inflexible

and pervasive behavioral patterns often cause serious personal and social

difficulties, as well as a general functional impairment. Rigid and ongoing

patterns of feeling, thinking and behavior are said to be caused by underlying

belief systems and these systems are referred to as fixed fantasies or

" dysfunctional schemata " (Cognitive modules). "

Insurance companies will not cover personality disorders.

But if instead the pd individual is given a diagnosis of an Axis I disorder

(like bi-polar disorder) then at least they can go get some psychological

treatment if they'll agree to it because insurance will cover that.

-Annie

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Do you all think that BPD is misdiagnosed for bipolar an awful lot? I have

a friend who is clearly BPD and so is her 15 year old son. When I told her what

BPD was, because she had never heard of it, she looked it up and called me back

and was saying, " OMG, , this is so me! " I knew it. I've got several friends

who have recently been diagnosed as bipolar that I know are BPD. Obviously I'm

not an expert, but why do clinicians do this so much?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Yes, my nada was diagnosed with bipolar. I don't buy it.

On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 5:49 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> I'm not sure I understand the classifications in the DSM-iv entirely, but I

> think the Axis I disorders are considered treatable with both talk therapy

> and drug therapy. Axis I disorders include things like psychotic disorders,

> mood disorders and anxiety disorders. Statistically, mental illnesses like

> schizophrenia and depression respond well to drug treatment and

> psychological therapy.

>

> The Axis II disorders are the personality disorders and mental

> retardation; and these are considered not treatable.

>

> This is because, according to this article on personality disorder RE the

> DSM-IV at Wikipedia:

>

> " ...personality disorders are inflexible and pervasive across many

> situations, due in large part to the fact that such behavior is ego-syntonic

> (i.e. the patterns are consistent with the ego integrity of the individual)

> and are, therefore, perceived to be appropriate by that individual.

>

> The onset of these patterns of behavior can typically be traced back to

> late adolescence and the beginning of adulthood and, in rarer instances,

> childhood.[1] It is therefore unlikely that a diagnosis of personality

> disorder will be appropriate before the age of 16 or 17 years. General

> diagnostic guidelines applying to all personality disorders are presented

> below; supplementary descriptions are provided with each of the subtypes.

>

> Diagnosis of personality disorders can be very subjective; however,

> inflexible and pervasive behavioral patterns often cause serious personal

> and social difficulties, as well as a general functional impairment. Rigid

> and ongoing patterns of feeling, thinking and behavior are said to be caused

> by underlying belief systems and these systems are referred to as fixed

> fantasies or " dysfunctional schemata " (Cognitive modules). "

>

> Insurance companies will not cover personality disorders.

>

> But if instead the pd individual is given a diagnosis of an Axis I disorder

> (like bi-polar disorder) then at least they can go get some psychological

> treatment if they'll agree to it because insurance will cover that.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Do you all think that BPD is misdiagnosed for bipolar an awful lot? I

> have a friend who is clearly BPD and so is her 15 year old son. When I told

> her what BPD was, because she had never heard of it, she looked it up and

> called me back and was saying, " OMG, , this is so me! " I knew it. I've

> got several friends who have recently been diagnosed as bipolar that I know

> are BPD. Obviously I'm not an expert, but why do clinicians do this so much?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Exactly and also some therapists completely refuse to even take a borderline on

as a client, so they are limited in who they can see. I don't know this for a

fact, but I would guess some insurance companies might even have discrimination

- like putting people with BPD diagnosis in a costlier levels of coverage.

> >

> > What is the stigma?

> >

[Guest guest]

According to this article (link below) most psychiatrists and psychologists

aren't trained in the newer therapies that seem to garner better results with

bpds, like cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical behavior therapy.

There also seems to be more hope for improvement when the person with bpd gets

diagnosed earlier in life and begins receiving these more advanced therapies

earlier, before the dysfunctional behaviors become too set in stone, brain-wise.

To me, this makes it all the more important to rescue kids from toxic, abusive,

negligent, exploitative environments so if the environment is a factor in the

development of bpd, the at-risk kids can be removed to a safe, calm, emotionally

stable environment in the care of mentally healthy adults while they're getting

treatment.

Here's the link:

http://brainblogger.com/2006/06/20/anti-stigmatization-psychiatry-discriminates-\

against-people-with-borderline-personality-disorder/

-Annie

> > >

> > > What is the stigma?

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

It's unfortunate for them that therapists refuse to treat them. How else can

they get help when they are being rejected by the very professionals who go to

school to help them?

Re: I'm no therapist (yet), but....

According to this article (link below) most psychiatrists and psychologists

aren't trained in the newer therapies that seem to garner better results with

bpds, like cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical behavior therapy.

There also seems to be more hope for improvement when the person with bpd gets

diagnosed earlier in life and begins receiving these more advanced therapies

earlier, before the dysfunctional behaviors become too set in stone, brain-wise.

To me, this makes it all the more important to rescue kids from toxic, abusive,

negligent, exploitative environments so if the environment is a factor in the

development of bpd, the at-risk kids can be removed to a safe, calm, emotionally

stable environment in the care of mentally healthy adults while they're getting

treatment.

Here's the link:

http://brainblogger.com/2006/06/20/anti-stigmatization-psychiatry-discriminates-\

against-people-with-borderline-personality-disorder/

-Annie

> > >

> > > What is the stigma?

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

Mine was diagnosed with Manic depressive..which I understand is now called

bipolar. She was proud of her Manic depressive diagnosis..she told people

with a pitiful sad face and most people would comfort her. She loved every

minute of it.

On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Girlscout Cowboy <

girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

> Yes, my nada was diagnosed with bipolar. I don't buy it.

>

> On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 5:49 PM, anuria67854 <anuria-67854@...

> >wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > I'm not sure I understand the classifications in the DSM-iv entirely, but

> I

> > think the Axis I disorders are considered treatable with both talk

> therapy

> > and drug therapy. Axis I disorders include things like psychotic

> disorders,

> > mood disorders and anxiety disorders. Statistically, mental illnesses

> like

> > schizophrenia and depression respond well to drug treatment and

> > psychological therapy.

> >

> > The Axis II disorders are the personality disorders and mental

> > retardation; and these are considered not treatable.

> >

> > This is because, according to this article on personality disorder RE the

> > DSM-IV at Wikipedia:

> >

> > " ...personality disorders are inflexible and pervasive across many

> > situations, due in large part to the fact that such behavior is

> ego-syntonic

> > (i.e. the patterns are consistent with the ego integrity of the

> individual)

> > and are, therefore, perceived to be appropriate by that individual.

> >

> > The onset of these patterns of behavior can typically be traced back to

> > late adolescence and the beginning of adulthood and, in rarer instances,

> > childhood.[1] It is therefore unlikely that a diagnosis of personality

> > disorder will be appropriate before the age of 16 or 17 years. General

> > diagnostic guidelines applying to all personality disorders are presented

> > below; supplementary descriptions are provided with each of the subtypes.

> >

> > Diagnosis of personality disorders can be very subjective; however,

> > inflexible and pervasive behavioral patterns often cause serious personal

> > and social difficulties, as well as a general functional impairment.

> Rigid

> > and ongoing patterns of feeling, thinking and behavior are said to be

> caused

> > by underlying belief systems and these systems are referred to as fixed

> > fantasies or " dysfunctional schemata " (Cognitive modules). "

> >

> > Insurance companies will not cover personality disorders.

> >

> > But if instead the pd individual is given a diagnosis of an Axis I

> disorder

> > (like bi-polar disorder) then at least they can go get some psychological

> > treatment if they'll agree to it because insurance will cover that.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

> >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you all think that BPD is misdiagnosed for bipolar an awful lot?

> I

> > have a friend who is clearly BPD and so is her 15 year old son. When I

> told

> > her what BPD was, because she had never heard of it, she looked it up and

> > called me back and was saying, " OMG, , this is so me! " I knew it.

> I've

> > got several friends who have recently been diagnosed as bipolar that I

> know

> > are BPD. Obviously I'm not an expert, but why do clinicians do this so

> much?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Ditto Stefanie!!!!!

>

>

> Mine was diagnosed with Manic depressive..which I understand is now called

> bipolar. She was proud of her Manic depressive diagnosis..she told people

> with a pitiful sad face and most people would comfort her. She loved every

> minute of it.

>

> On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Girlscout Cowboy <

> girlscout.cowboy@... <girlscout.cowboy%40gmail.com>> wrote:

>

> > Yes, my nada was diagnosed with bipolar. I don't buy it.

> >

> > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 5:49 PM, anuria67854

<anuria-67854@...<anuria-67854%40mypacks.net>

> > >wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > I'm not sure I understand the classifications in the DSM-iv entirely,

> but

> > I

> > > think the Axis I disorders are considered treatable with both talk

> > therapy

> > > and drug therapy. Axis I disorders include things like psychotic

> > disorders,

> > > mood disorders and anxiety disorders. Statistically, mental illnesses

> > like

> > > schizophrenia and depression respond well to drug treatment and

> > > psychological therapy.

> > >

> > > The Axis II disorders are the personality disorders and mental

> > > retardation; and these are considered not treatable.

> > >

> > > This is because, according to this article on personality disorder RE

> the

> > > DSM-IV at Wikipedia:

> > >

> > > " ...personality disorders are inflexible and pervasive across many

> > > situations, due in large part to the fact that such behavior is

> > ego-syntonic

> > > (i.e. the patterns are consistent with the ego integrity of the

> > individual)

> > > and are, therefore, perceived to be appropriate by that individual.

> > >

> > > The onset of these patterns of behavior can typically be traced back to

> > > late adolescence and the beginning of adulthood and, in rarer

> instances,

> > > childhood.[1] It is therefore unlikely that a diagnosis of personality

> > > disorder will be appropriate before the age of 16 or 17 years. General

> > > diagnostic guidelines applying to all personality disorders are

> presented

> > > below; supplementary descriptions are provided with each of the

> subtypes.

> > >

> > > Diagnosis of personality disorders can be very subjective; however,

> > > inflexible and pervasive behavioral patterns often cause serious

> personal

> > > and social difficulties, as well as a general functional impairment.

> > Rigid

> > > and ongoing patterns of feeling, thinking and behavior are said to be

> > caused

> > > by underlying belief systems and these systems are referred to as fixed

> > > fantasies or " dysfunctional schemata " (Cognitive modules). "

> > >

> > > Insurance companies will not cover personality disorders.

> > >

> > > But if instead the pd individual is given a diagnosis of an Axis I

> > disorder

> > > (like bi-polar disorder) then at least they can go get some

> psychological

> > > treatment if they'll agree to it because insurance will cover that.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you all think that BPD is misdiagnosed for bipolar an awful

> lot?

> > I

> > > have a friend who is clearly BPD and so is her 15 year old son. When I

> > told

> > > her what BPD was, because she had never heard of it, she looked it up

> and

> > > called me back and was saying, " OMG, , this is so me! " I knew it.

> > I've

> > > got several friends who have recently been diagnosed as bipolar that I

> > know

> > > are BPD. Obviously I'm not an expert, but why do clinicians do this so

> > much?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Yeah. My mother was never diagnosed officially (she was textbook bpd), but she

really got off on people feeling sorry for her. She wanted to be the victim and

for people to feel sorry for her and love her unconditionally and take care of

her, feed her like she was a child. It was weird. It was like she never got the

nurturing she needed, so she just worked hard at getting it and sucking the life

out of anyone who was around her.

Re: Re: I'm no therapist (yet), but....

Ditto Stefanie!!!!!

>

Mine was diagnosed with Manic depressive..which I understand is now called

bipolar. She was proud of her Manic depressive diagnosis..she told people

with a pitiful sad face and most people would comfort her. She loved every

minute of it.

On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Girlscout Cowboy <

girlscout.cowboy@... <girlscout.cowboy%40gmail.com>> wrote:

> Yes, my nada was diagnosed with bipolar. I don't buy it.

>

> On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 5:49 PM, anuria67854

<anuria-67854@...<anuria-67854%40mypacks.net>

> >wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > I'm not sure I understand the classifications in the DSM-iv entirely,

but

> I

> > think the Axis I disorders are considered treatable with both talk

> therapy

> > and drug therapy. Axis I disorders include things like psychotic

> disorders,

> > mood disorders and anxiety disorders. Statistically, mental illnesses

> like

> > schizophrenia and depression respond well to drug treatment and

> > psychological therapy.

> >

> > The Axis II disorders are the personality disorders and mental

> > retardation; and these are considered not treatable.

> >

> > This is because, according to this article on personality disorder RE

the

> > DSM-IV at Wikipedia:

> >

> > " ...personality disorders are inflexible and pervasive across many

> > situations, due in large part to the fact that such behavior is

> ego-syntonic

> > (i.e. the patterns are consistent with the ego integrity of the

> individual)

> > and are, therefore, perceived to be appropriate by that individual.

> >

> > The onset of these patterns of behavior can typically be traced back to

> > late adolescence and the beginning of adulthood and, in rarer

instances,

> > childhood.[1] It is therefore unlikely that a diagnosis of personality

> > disorder will be appropriate before the age of 16 or 17 years. General

> > diagnostic guidelines applying to all personality disorders are

presented

> > below; supplementary descriptions are provided with each of the

subtypes.

> >

> > Diagnosis of personality disorders can be very subjective; however,

> > inflexible and pervasive behavioral patterns often cause serious

personal

> > and social difficulties, as well as a general functional impairment.

> Rigid

> > and ongoing patterns of feeling, thinking and behavior are said to be

> caused

> > by underlying belief systems and these systems are referred to as fixed

> > fantasies or " dysfunctional schemata " (Cognitive modules). "

> >

> > Insurance companies will not cover personality disorders.

> >

> > But if instead the pd individual is given a diagnosis of an Axis I

> disorder

> > (like bi-polar disorder) then at least they can go get some

psychological

> > treatment if they'll agree to it because insurance will cover that.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

> >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you all think that BPD is misdiagnosed for bipolar an awful

lot?

> I

> > have a friend who is clearly BPD and so is her 15 year old son. When I

> told

> > her what BPD was, because she had never heard of it, she looked it up

and

> > called me back and was saying, " OMG, , this is so me! " I knew it.

> I've

> > got several friends who have recently been diagnosed as bipolar that I

> know

> > are BPD. Obviously I'm not an expert, but why do clinicians do this so

> much?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

But you don't want these people treated by people who don't know what they're

doing.

We all know how tough BPD can be to deal with. BP's treat therapists just like

they treat you and me. Only if we melt down and can't hold it together and deal

with it in the most constructive manner...well, we're just family. But

*they're* supposed to be the ones helping make the person better. Their

reactions, a goodly percentage of the time, have to be letter perfect, and most

of these folks work their butts off so that they will be. Think of Dr. Padgett

in " Get Me Out of Here. "

From my reading, most of the techniques used to help a not-so-ill person will

make a BP worse, not better. We wouldn't want that!

--.

[Guest guest]

It depends on what the professional is seeing while the BP is in the office with

them.

Don't forget, BP's know how to shine it on. They may be acting for the

professional, so that it takes a while before the professional starts to see the

BP behavior.

Or the BP may honestly show up depressed. Or the sudden mood changes can really

look bipolar. Remember, these folks only see the patient for an hour once a

week, and in the case of BP's who don't want treatment, sometimes less that

that.

Or this may just be an unsavvy professional who doesn't know what he's looking

at.

Or, yeah, they do get misdiagnosed for stigma and insurance reasons.

--LL.

[Guest guest]

I am curious ... the BPD person in my life just went to a psychologist,

which was a HUGE step... going back again the next day (!). I am curious how

long until the therapist is split, or if they will be -- how savvy do they

have to be to see through the defenses and excuses, distorted impressions

of things, etc.?

Has anyone had a BPD going to therapy and getting absolutely nowhere

because the T is totally snowed by the BPD?

Am I being paranoid?

[Guest guest]

Me personally, I think that like just about everything else in life, an

individual will respond to therapy individually.

If I understand the statistics correctly, its unusual for a

personality-disordered individual to even consider therapy, and unusual for them

to stay in therapy and get some benefit from the therapy. But, individuals are

not statistics. Your bpd may be one of those who is able to accept that there

is something wrong with the way her brain perceives and processes emotional

information, will actually stay in therapy and benefit from it.

I think that if your bpd's therapist is educated about the Cluster B personality

disorders, has some experience and success with treating those with bpd, and is

trained in the latest therapies (cognitive therapy and dialectical behavioral

therapy), that's half of the equation needed for the possibility of success.

If your bpd has reached a point where he or she has become distressed by her own

dysfunctional, counterproductive behaviors, has the capacity to accept personal

responsibility for her own behaviors, feels remorse for hurting other people

with her negative behaviors, really wants to change, and has the guts to stay in

therapy that is a painful, difficult, long-term effort, then there is a chance

that some real behavioral improvements can happen.

My nada went to therapy only because Sister and I basically gave her an

ultimatum. Although nada went, and after 6 months seemed to miraculously

recover from bpd, it turned out not to be a real change. Nada was just clamping

down on acting out her rage and hurt longer than usual, is all.

After only a few weeks of the " new, improved " nada, she had a total hysterical

meltdown rage-tantrum (because Sister was a few minutes late picking nada up for

an appointment) and screamed at Sister that there wasn't anything wrong with her

(nada), that she only went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and

I are the lying, hateful, crazy ones and she'd always been the perfect mother to

us.

After that, to nada's credit, after a few months away she did go back to

therapy, and after another 6 months of therapy (with me remaining in virtual no

contact, also) nada's behaviors toward Sister are much improved. Nada's

therapist as it turns out was also my Sister's therapist, and knew our version

of our childhood and our damage from treating Sister. And, as it turns out,

nada's therapist's own mother was also a borderline/narcissistic pd person.

From my point of view, my mother is the same, she's just better at reining in

her acting-out behaviors than she used to be. Her hateful feelings toward me are

the same; they seep out like a toxic ooze between the cracks now instead of

being spewed at me at high volume through a fire hose. She can't be around me

for more than a little while before some insulting, negative, or whiny and

accusing comment will leak out, albeit in a more indirect and plausibly deniable

way.

But, others have had more luck. I hope your bpd is one of those who has the

ability to change.

-Annie

>

> I am curious ... the BPD person in my life just went to a psychologist,

> which was a HUGE step... going back again the next day (!). I am curious how

> long until the therapist is split, or if they will be -- how savvy do they

> have to be to see through the defenses and excuses, distorted impressions

> of things, etc.?

>

> Has anyone had a BPD going to therapy and getting absolutely nowhere

> because the T is totally snowed by the BPD?

>

> Am I being paranoid?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yep my whole life the one therapist she saw for a long time until this T moved

was completely snowed and believed all the excuses.  Sounds like towards the

end she got the hint that she might have even had a problem, sounds like she may

have suspected BPD

proflaf1

Subject: Re: I'm no therapist (yet), but....

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 1:12 PM

 

I am curious ... the BPD person in my life just went to a psychologist,

which was a HUGE step... going back again the next day (!). I am curious how

long until the therapist is split, or if they will be -- how savvy do they

have to be to see through the defenses and excuses, distorted impressions

of things, etc.?

Has anyone had a BPD going to therapy and getting absolutely nowhere

because the T is totally snowed by the BPD?

Am I being paranoid?

[Guest guest]

Unfortunatly with BPD there is the double whammy -

a) most BPDs do not want to change their behaviour and

therapists/counsellors etc are just like plumbers. Some are good, some are

crap, and a few are great.

That cuts the odds of success by a bucketload.

My mother would fool the best of them for a while. She KNOWS what she thinks is

not what everyone else thinks, thats why she is so terrified of psychologists.

She can turn on the tears, carry on about how terrible her own childhood was

(which I know for a fact wasnt bad at all). The only thing that would slip her

up is the paranoia. That would come out after a while no matter how hard she

tried, but I think the BPD would go completely under the radar.

> >

> > I am curious ... the BPD person in my life just went to a psychologist,

> > which was a HUGE step... going back again the next day (!). I am curious

how

> > long until the therapist is split, or if they will be -- how savvy do they

> > have to be to see through the defenses and excuses, distorted impressions

> > of things, etc.?

> >

> > Has anyone had a BPD going to therapy and getting absolutely nowhere

> > because the T is totally snowed by the BPD?

> >

> > Am I being paranoid?

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

My mom has also been diagnosed with bipolar/depression but not BPD. I got the

impression (from talking with folks in her psych's office) that the insurance

thing may be the real bottom line - call it something they can get paid to

treat, and then they can try and deal with the " uninsurable " behavior on the

side???

I don't care what they call it - all I know is that I call it BPD behavior

toward ME, and I can deal with it that way.

>

> It depends on what the professional is seeing while the BP is in the office

with them.

>

> Don't forget, BP's know how to shine it on. They may be acting for the

professional, so that it takes a while before the professional starts to see the

BP behavior.

>

> Or the BP may honestly show up depressed. Or the sudden mood changes can

really look bipolar. Remember, these folks only see the patient for an hour

once a week, and in the case of BP's who don't want treatment, sometimes less

that that.

>

> Or this may just be an unsavvy professional who doesn't know what he's looking

at.

>

> Or, yeah, they do get misdiagnosed for stigma and insurance reasons.

>

> --LL.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> If I understand the statistics correctly, its unusual for a

personality-disordered individual to even consider therapy, and unusual for them

to stay in therapy and get some benefit from the therapy. But, individuals are

not statistics. Your bpd may be one of those who is able to accept that there

is something wrong with the way her brain perceives and processes emotional

information, will actually stay in therapy and benefit from it.

>

Ahh, that would be amazing! I don't think that will be the case, because this

therapy came as an ultimatim and was enforced/encouraged by her closest support

unit... It was fought against with a suprising, even to me, force! For weeks

after the ultimatim was given. Oh she was so MAD at the suggestions, lashed out

behind my back, pointed fingers at everyone else but especially me (the

ultimatim giver). In my defense, I didn't even know at the time what BPD was, I

didn't know what she " has " had a name. I just knew that it all Had To Stop!

> I think that if your bpd's therapist is educated about the Cluster B

personality disorders, has some experience and success with treating those with

bpd, and is trained in the latest therapies (cognitive therapy and dialectical

behavioral therapy), that's half of the equation needed for the possibility of

success.

>

Sigh... I have no idea who this current therapist is or what their skills are.

My BPD has said she likes the t, which to me is, sadly, a warning sign. She

went to ONE appt with a different t in the past (on her own, much to *everyones*

shock) and said she couldn't stand her, she accused her of taking some enjoyment

in her suffering and " all she wanted to do was talk about " painful stuff from

the past " .

> If your bpd has reached a point where he or she has become distressed by her

own dysfunctional, counterproductive behaviors, has the capacity to accept

personal responsibility for her own behaviors, feels remorse for hurting other

people with her negative behaviors, really wants to change, and has the guts to

stay in therapy that is a painful, difficult, long-term effort, then there is a

chance that some real behavioral improvements can happen.

>

LOL! I shouldn't laugh, but reading that just seems so hopeless!!! I do

absolutely think she is distressed by her current situation, but the ability to

accept personal responsibility is something that I've never seen from her. :-(

And all the other stuff -- uh, no!

>

> After only a few weeks of the " new, improved " nada, she had a total hysterical

meltdown rage-tantrum (because Sister was a few minutes late picking nada up for

an appointment) and screamed at Sister that there wasn't anything wrong with her

(nada), that she only went to therapy because we forced her to, that Sister and

I are the lying, hateful, crazy ones and she'd always been the perfect mother to

us.

>

Ugh, that sounds so terrible! You must have felt like that other shoe dropped

-- right on your heart!

Thanks for your insight, Annie!!!

Best wishes

~ Star

[Guest guest]

May be for insuance, might have to mention that one to my aunt that I'm sure BPD

isn't well covered since treatment is hard if even possible! 

Subject: Re: I'm no therapist (yet), but....

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 10:23 PM

 

My mom has also been diagnosed with bipolar/depression but not BPD. I got

the impression (from talking with folks in her psych's office) that the

insurance thing may be the real bottom line - call it something they can get

paid to treat, and then they can try and deal with the " uninsurable " behavior on

the side???

I don't care what they call it - all I know is that I call it BPD behavior

toward ME, and I can deal with it that way.

>

> It depends on what the professional is seeing while the BP is in the office

with them.

>

> Don't forget, BP's know how to shine it on. They may be acting for the

professional, so that it takes a while before the professional starts to see the

BP behavior.

>

> Or the BP may honestly show up depressed. Or the sudden mood changes can

really look bipolar. Remember, these folks only see the patient for an hour

once a week, and in the case of BP's who don't want treatment, sometimes less

that that.

>

> Or this may just be an unsavvy professional who doesn't know what he's looking

at.

>

> Or, yeah, they do get misdiagnosed for stigma and insurance reasons.

>

> --LL.

>

[Guest guest]

I am a therapist, and I can tell you that most insurance companies will not pay

for Axis II disorders (personality disorders) because they are difficult to

treat. As a result, most BPD clients end up with an Axis I disorder diagnosis

(usually a mood disorder, depression, bipolar, cyclothymic etc) that probably

also fits, but may not give as complete a picture of that patient as a diagnosis

of BPD. Unfortunately, when it comes to mental healh treatment, insurance

companies are not our friends, and us therapists have to do what we can to get

people services who really need them.

>

> >

>

> > It depends on what the professional is seeing while the BP is in the office

with them.

>

> >

>

> > Don't forget, BP's know how to shine it on. They may be acting for the

professional, so that it takes a while before the professional starts to see the

BP behavior.

>

> >

>

> > Or the BP may honestly show up depressed. Or the sudden mood changes can

really look bipolar. Remember, these folks only see the patient for an hour

once a week, and in the case of BP's who don't want treatment, sometimes less

that that.

>

> >

>

> > Or this may just be an unsavvy professional who doesn't know what he's

looking at.

>

> >

>

> > Or, yeah, they do get misdiagnosed for stigma and insurance reasons.

>

> >

>

> > --LL.

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for clearing that up - so let me ask another question on the same topic -

IF I assume that they've diagnosed her with bipolar and major depression because

those two things are reimbursable (and she also does fit those DSM-IV

descriptions) - does it help or hurt if I tell them that her behavior also fits

the BPD criteria? I don't want to mess up her treatment - God knows, she needs

it. I just want them to understand why I'm not trotting along to her

appointments like the loving daughter I should be. I'm getting the impression

from what you've said that they may KNOW she has BPD behaviors, but since it

doesn't do any good to tell HER that, and they can't get paid for treating it,

they're just trying to cope with the " whole person, " knowing the BPD behavior is

there, and doing the best they can with her.

Does that sound realistic? I know you don't know her and can't speak to a

specific patient's diagnosis, but it would be very comforting to know that her

therapists aren't just discounting the BPD behavior - because it really, really

has an impact on her ability to function.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > It depends on what the professional is seeing while the BP is in the

office with them.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Don't forget, BP's know how to shine it on. They may be acting for the

professional, so that it takes a while before the professional starts to see the

BP behavior.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Or the BP may honestly show up depressed. Or the sudden mood changes can

really look bipolar. Remember, these folks only see the patient for an hour

once a week, and in the case of BP's who don't want treatment, sometimes less

that that.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Or this may just be an unsavvy professional who doesn't know what he's

looking at.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Or, yeah, they do get misdiagnosed for stigma and insurance reasons.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > --LL.

> >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Sounds like a plan to me, I think the less hiding is done the better I think it

destroyed my FOO to have it totally misdiagnosed and mistreated.  I think even

in the end she was pulling her tricks.

Subject: Re: I'm no therapist (yet), but....

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 7:50 PM

 

Thanks for clearing that up - so let me ask another question on the same

topic - IF I assume that they've diagnosed her with bipolar and major depression

because those two things are reimbursable (and she also does fit those DSM-IV

descriptions) - does it help or hurt if I tell them that her behavior also fits

the BPD criteria? I don't want to mess up her treatment - God knows, she needs

it. I just want them to understand why I'm not trotting along to her

appointments like the loving daughter I should be. I'm getting the impression

from what you've said that they may KNOW she has BPD behaviors, but since it

doesn't do any good to tell HER that, and they can't get paid for treating it,

they're just trying to cope with the " whole person, " knowing the BPD behavior is

there, and doing the best they can with her.

Does that sound realistic? I know you don't know her and can't speak to a

specific patient's diagnosis, but it would be very comforting to know that her

therapists aren't just discounting the BPD behavior - because it really, really

has an impact on her ability to function.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > It depends on what the professional is seeing while the BP is in the

office with them.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Don't forget, BP's know how to shine it on. They may be acting for the

professional, so that it takes a while before the professional starts to see the

BP behavior.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Or the BP may honestly show up depressed. Or the sudden mood changes can

really look bipolar. Remember, these folks only see the patient for an hour

once a week, and in the case of BP's who don't want treatment, sometimes less

that that.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Or this may just be an unsavvy professional who doesn't know what he's

looking at.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Or, yeah, they do get misdiagnosed for stigma and insurance reasons.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > --LL.

> >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >