Re: Email exchange with Nada

[Guest guest]

The second response sounds to me like you were thinking out loud, expressing

your feelings. From your I statements, she twisted it around into she was an

" awful mother and grandmother. " Why? Because I think she had to make a

conversation about your son into a conversation about " her. "

>

> Would anyone care to comment about the following email? Fiona, Doug?? Someone

with a hermit Nada? It is wrong the response? Guilt tripping?

>

> ADULT CHILD ME-I was thinking yesterday from our conversation that it is high

time that an independent relationship be formed and nurtured with Spencer

separate from me. Spencer, almost 20, is more or less an adult. He will always

be my child but now deserves the respect to be treated as an adult. Even though

he has not had any positive male role models-no father, step father, grandfather

or even uncle, I think that Spencer has it together more than any of us

including myself. I think he would enjoy a care package or even a physical

letter from you. Since you go to the post office frequently, this should be

fairly easy. I think Spencer would very much appreciate the attention and

interest in his studies and his travels. Spencer has demonstrated and continues

to behave in a thoughtful and mature manner. Although I think issues will arise

in the future for him to have to deal with. What do you think?

>

> NADA-I know--- I've been intending to send him an e-mail but can never think

of anything to say except " how are you and what are you doing " and know that is

not very interesting. And honestly afraid I might say something wrong. He

made some pictures when they were here on a camera. When I ever get the roll

finished and developed I was going to send them to him. I will have to try

to find his mailing address again. I don't know what I did with it.

>

> ADULT CHILD-1ST RESPONSE

> Here is the link to the school address. the pics are a great idea. I think

asking about his classes and what his interests are-which ones he enjoys etc is

always a safe bet. It shows an interest in him and allows him to express his

opinions. Opinions are neither right or wrong but part of being human. Using " I "

statements as opposed to " you " also allows for a healthy exchange of ideas

>

> After thinking about this, I thought I was being codependent and sent the

following email.

>

>

> ADULT CHILD-2ND RESPONSE

> I don't know how many times I have sent his address. Suffice to say, several

times. I think I understand why I am exhausted all the time. I just can't be a

mother. I have to be their father too and now it seems grandparent. It seems so

eerily reminiscent of Dave Ward. I have to keep track of the address and send it

again and again. I am asked what to say to him. I would think talking to a

grandmother might be useful. But here I go again, solving someone else's

problems instead of my own. I need a break from the insanity for a while

>

> NADA

> I DID NOT ASK YOU FOR HIS ADDRESS!! I was just rambling on. Don't

bother about doing anything for me! I am sorry I have not been the grandmother

and mother that you would have liked

>

[Guest guest]

I'm puzzling over why you are trying to direct how your nada communicates with

your son? As long as what she is currently doing (which sounds like next to

nothing) is not abusive, to me it seems best not to interfere. Sure, it'd be

nice for Spencer to have a loving involved grandparent, but if she's not

interested or up for the task telling her she should be isn't likely to yield

good results. Another thought is to ask Spencer how much / what type of

communication with his grandmother is he interested in. Your nada's instant

jump to acting like you are vilifying her sounds familiar - mine does the same

thing as a way to cut off any communication that remotely looks like a

criticism. I know how maddening that is. But yeah, the more I think about it

whatever relationship that develops between them has to be natural and voluntary

on both sides to be healthy.

>

> Would anyone care to comment about the following email? Fiona, Doug?? Someone

with a hermit Nada? It is wrong the response? Guilt tripping?

>

> ADULT CHILD ME-I was thinking yesterday from our conversation that it is high

time that an independent relationship be formed and nurtured with Spencer

separate from me. Spencer, almost 20, is more or less an adult. He will always

be my child but now deserves the respect to be treated as an adult. Even though

he has not had any positive male role models-no father, step father, grandfather

or even uncle, I think that Spencer has it together more than any of us

including myself. I think he would enjoy a care package or even a physical

letter from you. Since you go to the post office frequently, this should be

fairly easy. I think Spencer would very much appreciate the attention and

interest in his studies and his travels. Spencer has demonstrated and continues

to behave in a thoughtful and mature manner. Although I think issues will arise

in the future for him to have to deal with. What do you think?

>

> NADA-I know--- I've been intending to send him an e-mail but can never think

of anything to say except " how are you and what are you doing " and know that is

not very interesting. And honestly afraid I might say something wrong. He

made some pictures when they were here on a camera. When I ever get the roll

finished and developed I was going to send them to him. I will have to try

to find his mailing address again. I don't know what I did with it.

>

> ADULT CHILD-1ST RESPONSE

> Here is the link to the school address. the pics are a great idea. I think

asking about his classes and what his interests are-which ones he enjoys etc is

always a safe bet. It shows an interest in him and allows him to express his

opinions. Opinions are neither right or wrong but part of being human. Using " I "

statements as opposed to " you " also allows for a healthy exchange of ideas

>

> After thinking about this, I thought I was being codependent and sent the

following email.

>

>

> ADULT CHILD-2ND RESPONSE

> I don't know how many times I have sent his address. Suffice to say, several

times. I think I understand why I am exhausted all the time. I just can't be a

mother. I have to be their father too and now it seems grandparent. It seems so

eerily reminiscent of Dave Ward. I have to keep track of the address and send it

again and again. I am asked what to say to him. I would think talking to a

grandmother might be useful. But here I go again, solving someone else's

problems instead of my own. I need a break from the insanity for a while

>

> NADA

> I DID NOT ASK YOU FOR HIS ADDRESS!! I was just rambling on. Don't

bother about doing anything for me! I am sorry I have not been the grandmother

and mother that you would have liked

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Felicia,

As someone with a hermit mother, this is typical drag-her-to-interact kind of

behavior (for instance, my mother never once has attended one of my daughter's

ballet recitals when she was younger. she could have but if it involves seeing

new people and possibly seeing people she knows, she just won't do it.

I do agree with I think it was climberkayak's post - why do you have to

orchestrate this email exchange? Please know I'm not criticizing you. You sound

in the emails eager to see a relationship happen between your mother and your

child, which is a good thing, but why? Especially if you have to force it to

happen.

Fiona

[Guest guest]

Yeah ditto - if she wants to stay in her bedroom under the covers, then let

her! I think YOU should go have a good time with your son!

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:04 AM, Fiona wrote:

>

>

> Hi Felicia,

>

> As someone with a hermit mother, this is typical drag-her-to-interact kind

> of behavior (for instance, my mother never once has attended one of my

> daughter's ballet recitals when she was younger. she could have but if it

> involves seeing new people and possibly seeing people she knows, she just

> won't do it.

>

> I do agree with I think it was climberkayak's post - why do you have to

> orchestrate this email exchange? Please know I'm not criticizing you. You

> sound in the emails eager to see a relationship happen between your mother

> and your child, which is a good thing, but why? Especially if you have to

> force it to happen.

>

> Fiona

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey guys, thanks for your comments. I don't think it makes that much of a

difference but I left out that she was asking me about my son. We were talking

on the phone and she asked me about him. And proceeded to tell me that he

shouldn't travel on his own and that he should stay with the group travel

because there was an orange level alert in Europe. (BE AFRAID).....That is what

precipitated my email. I mean what am I supposed to do here?

 

I don't know why I can't give it up. I just keep going back for more. Keep

thinking that she will change and will see the light. It is like I am so afraid

to let it go then I wouldn't have the excuse to be miserable and I think

unconsciously to despise myself because I never made her happy.

 

 

>

>

> Hi Felicia,

>

> As someone with a hermit mother, this is typical drag-her-to-interact kind

> of behavior (for instance, my mother never once has attended one of my

> daughter's ballet recitals when she was younger. she could have but if it

> involves seeing new people and possibly seeing people she knows, she just

> won't do it.

>

> I do agree with I think it was climberkayak's post - why do you have to

> orchestrate this email exchange? Please know I'm not criticizing you. You

> sound in the emails eager to see a relationship happen between your mother

> and your child, which is a good thing, but why? Especially if you have to

> force it to happen.

>

> Fiona

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well by God shes a BP isnt she?

lol

General comment, and this is just me, not a criticism of your choice. I

would not try to get a nada to establish and maintain a relationship

with one of my children , especially a young adult one.

Because, I tried for years and it was as much the abysmal failure as it

was to try a relationship with her myself.

Secondly, because I would have the discussion with the child, and warn

him, if you want to try, be aware she is what she is and most likely

will disappoint you. But it is your choice, you are an adult.

But that s just me. And yea, it is co dependant as hell! LOL. Are you

surprised, Felicia? You re a KO , there kid.

Doug

>

> Would anyone care to comment about the following email? Fiona, Doug??

Someone with a hermit Nada? It is wrong the response? Guilt tripping?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Felicia - I was reading this thread with interest because I have a

high-school aged son and have been through some of this same stuff. With us,

it's a matter of Nada wanting to glom onto my son, who runs for the hills (well,

the bathroom) every time she calls because she tries to manipulate, wheedle,

etc.

I see two things happening in your post - first, Nada is insisting on YOU being

the intermediary between her and your son. You're absolutely right to insist

that she leave you out of the loop - he's a grownup, and she shouldn't still be

passing messages to him through you. She's making you do all the communication

work for her.

Second, I think the other posters are right - be sure Spencer WANTS to talk to

her. My son is aware of his grandmother's mental illness, and has accepted that

he has to be compassionate and polite, but he still hates being " backed into a

corner " by her phone calls. (I know he gets some of this from my attitude, but

hey, he also knows a Nada when he sees one.) If Spencer is old enough to take

your mom's calls without your intervention, he's also old enough to decide how

much contact he's willing to have with her.

And about that whole Europe thing - my mom does that same fearmongering deal.

While I certainly believe in listening to governmental warnings and traveling

safely, most of us don't get that many chances to travel abroad before the

requirements of adult life shackle us to mortgages and jobs. If he's got a

chance to go, he should heed the warnings, make sure he's got his safety plan in

place, and GO, for cryin' out loud.

>

> >

> >

> > Hi Felicia,

> >

> > As someone with a hermit mother, this is typical drag-her-to-interact kind

> > of behavior (for instance, my mother never once has attended one of my

> > daughter's ballet recitals when she was younger. she could have but if it

> > involves seeing new people and possibly seeing people she knows, she just

> > won't do it.

> >

> > I do agree with I think it was climberkayak's post - why do you have to

> > orchestrate this email exchange? Please know I'm not criticizing you. You

> > sound in the emails eager to see a relationship happen between your mother

> > and your child, which is a good thing, but why? Especially if you have to

> > force it to happen.

> >

> > Fiona

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<I don't know why I can't give it up. I just keep going back for more.>

well, if it makes you feel any better, you're not alone. I go back again and

again. My attempts are starting to dwindle, which is a good sign I guess.

>

> >

> >

> > Hi Felicia,

> >

> > As someone with a hermit mother, this is typical drag-her-to-interact kind

> > of behavior (for instance, my mother never once has attended one of my

> > daughter's ballet recitals when she was younger. she could have but if it

> > involves seeing new people and possibly seeing people she knows, she just

> > won't do it.

> >

> > I do agree with I think it was climberkayak's post - why do you have to

> > orchestrate this email exchange? Please know I'm not criticizing you. You

> > sound in the emails eager to see a relationship happen between your mother

> > and your child, which is a good thing, but why? Especially if you have to

> > force it to happen.

> >

> > Fiona

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think emails are really tempting if you're trying to distance from a BP (I am

going for no contact but I still hope that this is relevant for you if that's

not your way). They can make it seem that since you are writing everything out

and all the words are laid out right there for somebody to see that the

recipient is going to read everything in that way and misunderstandings can be

cleared. But really for a borderline they'll just make a joke out of everything

even if it's plainly written out like that. When they talk to you verbally you

can shut them out but when they talk to you by email YOU DO get all their words

because you have to read them into your head yourself. And what is it that

you're eating up but a rotting plate of delusion and hopelessness (with a

topping of facade)? You're pretty much giving her a chance to feed off you:

you're making an offer to hear her response but she's not really going to be

doing the same for you. She's going to use your vulnerability to her advantage,

you know she will. It sounds harsh but the reality behind it is a lot sadder.

Why should you have to feel like you've just had your soul violated when talking

to your " mom " ? Basic give and take doesn't apply here.

My own nada is obsessed with sending emails (and spreading my email address to

various other clueless adults who she gets to further her work) and it's pretty

common for her to add in guilt-tripping lines. Email is writing and writing is a

craft and I'm sure that makes it even easier to formulate fantasies through it.

Honestly these days when I see an email from her I JUST DELETE IT, I don't even

open it. If I open it I'm nourishing that part of me that believes something in

there could be important or worth reading; I'd be nourishing that part of me

that gives her the benefit of the doubt that she does not deserve. After I

stopped opening the emails I realized that even the most important news would do

no good coming from her. Everything that comes out of her is just twisted,

INCLUDING things that are gems in reality. If we want to have hold of those gems

we shouldn't try and get them through a borderline, because it'll never happen.

But I'm sure we all know that by now looking at our own childhoods.

>

> Would anyone care to comment about the following email? Fiona, Doug?? Someone

with a hermit Nada? It is wrong the response? Guilt tripping?

>

> ADULT CHILD ME-I was thinking yesterday from our conversation that it is high

time that an independent relationship be formed and nurtured with Spencer

separate from me. Spencer, almost 20, is more or less an adult. He will always

be my child but now deserves the respect to be treated as an adult. Even though

he has not had any positive male role models-no father, step father, grandfather

or even uncle, I think that Spencer has it together more than any of us

including myself. I think he would enjoy a care package or even a physical

letter from you. Since you go to the post office frequently, this should be

fairly easy. I think Spencer would very much appreciate the attention and

interest in his studies and his travels. Spencer has demonstrated and continues

to behave in a thoughtful and mature manner. Although I think issues will arise

in the future for him to have to deal with. What do you think?

>

> NADA-I know--- I've been intending to send him an e-mail but can never think

of anything to say except " how are you and what are you doing " and know that is

not very interesting. And honestly afraid I might say something wrong. He

made some pictures when they were here on a camera. When I ever get the roll

finished and developed I was going to send them to him. I will have to try

to find his mailing address again. I don't know what I did with it.

>

> ADULT CHILD-1ST RESPONSE

> Here is the link to the school address. the pics are a great idea. I think

asking about his classes and what his interests are-which ones he enjoys etc is

always a safe bet. It shows an interest in him and allows him to express his

opinions. Opinions are neither right or wrong but part of being human. Using " I "

statements as opposed to " you " also allows for a healthy exchange of ideas

>

> After thinking about this, I thought I was being codependent and sent the

following email.

>

>

> ADULT CHILD-2ND RESPONSE

> I don't know how many times I have sent his address. Suffice to say, several

times. I think I understand why I am exhausted all the time. I just can't be a

mother. I have to be their father too and now it seems grandparent. It seems so

eerily reminiscent of Dave Ward. I have to keep track of the address and send it

again and again. I am asked what to say to him. I would think talking to a

grandmother might be useful. But here I go again, solving someone else's

problems instead of my own. I need a break from the insanity for a while

>

> NADA

> I DID NOT ASK YOU FOR HIS ADDRESS!! I was just rambling on. Don't

bother about doing anything for me! I am sorry I have not been the grandmother

and mother that you would have liked

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think you should beat up on yourself. It's an unmet need, which is still

a need. You have a need for her to act like an adult and not have to be

spoonfed, as a mom you are also addressing a need that your child has, to have a

caring grandparent, and your inner KO has a need for HER to be the adult once in

a while. I think because of the way our brains are wired it sometimes takes

daily vigilance to stay in the reality of the fact that they are not capable of

change. Or NC, which is probably the healthier route. Not possible for me right

now but I envy the people who have done it. I think your responses show concern

and love for your child, which is nothing to be ashamed of, but it's just one

more reminder she is happy the way she is and doesn't feel compelled to have the

relationship with him, or anyone, that is nurturing, because her narcissism

won't allow it. Just one of those things that happens to KO's, I can attest to

that. Don't beat up on yourself for expressing frustration at sending the

address over and over and her not keeping track of it. And screw her response,

frankly. You are in the right.

>

> >

> >

> > Hi Felicia,

> >

> > As someone with a hermit mother, this is typical drag-her-to-interact kind

> > of behavior (for instance, my mother never once has attended one of my

> > daughter's ballet recitals when she was younger. she could have but if it

> > involves seeing new people and possibly seeing people she knows, she just

> > won't do it.

> >

> > I do agree with I think it was climberkayak's post - why do you have to

> > orchestrate this email exchange? Please know I'm not criticizing you. You

> > sound in the emails eager to see a relationship happen between your mother

> > and your child, which is a good thing, but why? Especially if you have to

> > force it to happen.

> >

> > Fiona

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My Nada only learned to use e-mail on a very limited basis. I think its

kinda funny - she's not that old. . but i guess she didn't like computers.

However, considering that she sees herself as smarter and more beautiful

than everyone around her, why didn't it just come naturally.

Okay that's an aside. What I meant to say is that I also don't open emails

or listen to voice messages from my FOO. Don't want to - so I don't. I

actually have kind of a terror of voice messages, I hate em!!! Must be

family trauma.

>

>

>

>

> I think emails are really tempting if you're trying to distance from a BP

> (I am going for no contact but I still hope that this is relevant for you if

> that's not your way). They can make it seem that since you are writing

> everything out and all the words are laid out right there for somebody to

> see that the recipient is going to read everything in that way and

> misunderstandings can be cleared. But really for a borderline they'll just

> make a joke out of everything even if it's plainly written out like that.

> When they talk to you verbally you can shut them out but when they talk to

> you by email YOU DO get all their words because you have to read them into

> your head yourself. And what is it that you're eating up but a rotting plate

> of delusion and hopelessness (with a topping of facade)? You're pretty much

> giving her a chance to feed off you: you're making an offer to hear her

> response but she's not really going to be doing the same for you. She's

> going to use your vulnerability to her advantage, you know she will. It

> sounds harsh but the reality behind it is a lot sadder. Why should you have

> to feel like you've just had your soul violated when talking to your " mom " ?

> Basic give and take doesn't apply here.

>

> My own nada is obsessed with sending emails (and spreading my email address

> to various other clueless adults who she gets to further her work) and it's

> pretty common for her to add in guilt-tripping lines. Email is writing and

> writing is a craft and I'm sure that makes it even easier to formulate

> fantasies through it. Honestly these days when I see an email from her I

> JUST DELETE IT, I don't even open it. If I open it I'm nourishing that part

> of me that believes something in there could be important or worth reading;

> I'd be nourishing that part of me that gives her the benefit of the doubt

> that she does not deserve. After I stopped opening the emails I realized

> that even the most important news would do no good coming from her.

> Everything that comes out of her is just twisted, INCLUDING things that are

> gems in reality. If we want to have hold of those gems we shouldn't try and

> get them through a borderline, because it'll never happen. But I'm sure we

> all know that by now looking at our own childhoods.

>

>

>

> >

> > Would anyone care to comment about the following email? Fiona, Doug??

> Someone with a hermit Nada? It is wrong the response? Guilt tripping?

> >

> > ADULT CHILD ME-I was thinking yesterday from our conversation that it is

> high time that an independent relationship be formed and nurtured with

> Spencer separate from me. Spencer, almost 20, is more or less an adult. He

> will always be my child but now deserves the respect to be treated as an

> adult. Even though he has not had any positive male role models-no father,

> step father, grandfather or even uncle, I think that Spencer has it together

> more than any of us including myself. I think he would enjoy a care package

> or even a physical letter from you. Since you go to the post office

> frequently, this should be fairly easy. I think Spencer would very much

> appreciate the attention and interest in his studies and his travels.

> Spencer has demonstrated and continues to behave in a thoughtful and mature

> manner. Although I think issues will arise in the future for him to have to

> deal with. What do you think?

> >

> > NADA-I know--- I've been intending to send him an e-mail but can never

> think of anything to say except " how are you and what are you doing " and

> know that is not very interesting. And honestly afraid I might say something

> wrong. He made some pictures when they were here on a camera. When I ever

> get the roll finished and developed I was going to send them to him. I will

> have to try to find his mailing address again. I don't know what I did with

> it.

> >

> > ADULT CHILD-1ST RESPONSE

> > Here is the link to the school address. the pics are a great idea. I

> think asking about his classes and what his interests are-which ones he

> enjoys etc is always a safe bet. It shows an interest in him and allows him

> to express his opinions. Opinions are neither right or wrong but part of

> being human. Using " I " statements as opposed to " you " also allows for a

> healthy exchange of ideas

> >

> > After thinking about this, I thought I was being codependent and sent the

> following email.

> >

> >

> > ADULT CHILD-2ND RESPONSE

> > I don't know how many times I have sent his address. Suffice to say,

> several times. I think I understand why I am exhausted all the time. I just

> can't be a mother. I have to be their father too and now it seems

> grandparent. It seems so eerily reminiscent of Dave Ward. I have to keep

> track of the address and send it again and again. I am asked what to say to

> him. I would think talking to a grandmother might be useful. But here I go

> again, solving someone else's problems instead of my own. I need a break

> from the insanity for a while

> >

> > NADA

> > I DID NOT ASK YOU FOR HIS ADDRESS!! I was just rambling on. Don't bother

> about doing anything for me! I am sorry I have not been the grandmother and

> mother that you would have liked

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I want to thank everyone for their insightful responses to this email exchange.

It has taken me a few days to digest the fact that yes she is mentally ill. So

codependent of me.  Even though I have read all the literature and even

diagnosed her as a hermit BPD mother. I read that book too, I really didn't

believe it until Doug said it.  I have alot of work to do on my intuition

abilities. 6 years married to a BPD took its toll.

 

To answer the question about why I want my son to have a relationship with her

and also to address his desire to have a relationship. I think his response is

of course similar to mine. We vacillate between sympathy for her (she is ill and

probably dying) and anger at her behavior. We had a once in a lifetime

opportunity to travel to an island that had dolphin therapy for my daughter who

has autism. I felt sorry for my NADA because she had just been diagnosed with

emphysema according to her. So I thought she hasn't traveled and probably never

get to go anywhere. She stayed for a week with me and my kids. We travel all the

way to this beautiful island and get to the hotel room. We cant just go to

sleep, we have to find a cab and locate some place for her to eat dinner at

11pm. She HAS to eat. But before that, she walks into the bathroom of the hotel

room and screams " oh no! " ...I was like what?????what??? and she says there is no

bath tub!!!. She can't take

a shower. Has to be a tub. So  can we guess how the week went? We were so

relieved we she left early. One of her topics of chit chat was to blame the

young woman in Aruba for her own kidnapping and murder. At that comment, my son

hit the ceiling....He didn't care how sick she was, he didn't want to be around

her. But then time will go by and he will feel guilty(like me) and decide that

he should visit her because she is old (74) and she IS his grandmother.....

 

But again, as Doug stated, how could a relationship be possible when she refuses

to have a relationship with me?  I am reading " The Harpy's Child " children of

narcissists. She does everything listed in that article. I guess I have to

remind myself everyday.....UGH.

 

 

Subject: Re: Email exchange with Nada

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 11:53 PM

 

Well by God shes a BP isnt she?

lol

General comment, and this is just me, not a criticism of your choice. I

would not try to get a nada to establish and maintain a relationship

with one of my children , especially a young adult one.

Because, I tried for years and it was as much the abysmal failure as it

was to try a relationship with her myself.

Secondly, because I would have the discussion with the child, and warn

him, if you want to try, be aware she is what she is and most likely

will disappoint you. But it is your choice, you are an adult.

But that s just me. And yea, it is co dependant as hell! LOL. Are you

surprised, Felicia? You re a KO , there kid.

Doug

>

> Would anyone care to comment about the following email? Fiona, Doug??

Someone with a hermit Nada? It is wrong the response? Guilt tripping?

>