Re: Re: another inappropriate response (cognitive disonan...

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Annie, my nada, too, was freaky compulsive, obsessive on cleanliness.

Ironically, at 90 yrs. old w/alzheimers, she has to be forced to bathe and she

will take a swing at or cuss out anyone that tries to get her to bathe.

At one point, she went 5 weeks with no bath! Dishrag dad let her only

because he didn't want to get yelled at. I finally went to their home and

forced her into the shower (after being cussed out for an hour, then the tears

rolled down her face, then she took a swing at me, then she gave in). Just

so you know, I don't do that anymore. Avow Hospice handles her baths now.

Man, our families are nuts.

Laurie

In a message dated 10/9/2010 12:41:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

I think you're right, and nadas will tend to fall into either extreme end

of the spectrum: either freakishly controlling or as negligent and uncaring

as a monitor lizard RE her child's health and nutritional needs. (Monitor

lizards just lay their eggs and then wander off, leaving the eggs and

hatchlings vulnerable to predators; sometimes they even wander back to their

own

nest and eat their own eggs and hatchlings.)

Mine fell into the freakishly controlling camp. I was actually threatened,

screamed at and physically forced to eat foods that I found repulsive; by

the time was around 10 or 11 I was underweight and dreaded mealtimes at

home, although I ate well at the school cafeteria. The stress of knowing that

at some point during the meal I'd probably be forced to chew and swallow

something that would trigger my gag reflex made me even more anxious,

stressed and nervous than I was already, and I would lose my appetite

altogether.

At one point when nada was screaming at me and I was crying and trying to

swallow some " congealed salad " thing she'd made, my throat just closed up,

I felt like I was choking and I vomited right there at the table.

Once I'd done that and upset dad and put him Sister off their food too,

that put an end to being forced to eat foods I didn't want to. If there was

one thing nada hated more than my being willful and rejecting something

she'd made for me to eat, it was mess. She had/has an obsessive-compulsive

horror of messiness.

I am grateful that nada didn't try to make me eat my vomit as punishment;

I've read of other even more deeply disturbed and sadistic pd mothers who

take that even more extreme and horrific step.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Hi Charlie,

> > >

> > > I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have time

to try

> > to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

> > spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and

> > consequences is right on the money.

> > >

> > > Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since we

> > couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap a

> > " reward " from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only " reward "

we got

> > from managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve

*their*

> > needs,never ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve from

> > punishment that was mainly hollow because there was always the threat

of

> > punishment the next time.We were used,manipulated and abandoned--not

> > raised,not parented.And like you said,held captive: captive to a

mentally

> > ill person's arbitrary whims.There was no rhyme or reason of action

follows

> > consequence that a child could understand aside from dreading

punishment and

> > wanting to avoid it.

> > >

> > > Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went in

to the

> > kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like sh*t

or

> > threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I didn't

> > exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet

every

> > morning *I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen and

said

> > good morning or started to.If the same exact behavior from me elicited

> > wildly different reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make sense

of

> > that? Since I was too young to think of my own mother: Oh well,she's

> > crazy,don't take anything she says seriously...

> > >

> > > And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like with

your

> > happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when we

are

> > trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't

mirrored

> > back to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents had

> > terrible eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember feeling

> > nauseous and sick from eating too much junk.I actually *liked*

vegetables

> > because when I got to eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't feel

> > sick.So when we went grocery shopping I tried to " help " nada make

better

> > food choices by asking her to buy spinach or Cream of Wheat instead of

Pop

> > Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants that,it's gross.I'm not buying

that. "

> > >

> > > *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that *nobody*

wants

> > that.The consequence to my action there being: you are nobody.Which is

what

> > your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be healthy

mean

> > nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

> > >

> > > I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the consequences

of my

> > actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must

simply

> > endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to access

> > because it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later memories,from

about

> > four onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body

remembers

> > me feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find

nada,but I

> > have a clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not to

drink

> > orange juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me heart

burn is

> > easy.But I have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I won't

have

> > to simply endure being tired the next day--I have to *remind* myself

that I

> > can in fact *prevent* being too tired *myself*,by my own actions.It's

the

> > infant in me that never learned that and accessing the awareness that

my

> > infant self doesn't know how to prevent tiredness still amounts to me

having

> > to even notice when I'm going into " helplessly enduring " it mode.

> > >

> > > A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all day--when a

> > friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and

eating

> > well,I absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but was

trying

> > to gather my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that answered

his

> > question.To him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't gather

> > strength from NOTHING. "

> > >

> > > When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly what I

had

> > been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather

strength

> > from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said the

same

> > thing to nada or fada,they would have been like: Yeah,ok,whatever.My

actions

> > that day (not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying

there in

> > bed with the flu believing that I could just gather my forces out of

thin

> > air and swan off to the grocery store to buy soup--which made no

sense.I had

> > learned so early to stoically endure consequences I couldn't prevent

that my

> > own actions were like a moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've had

to

> > retrain myself to be that caretaker to myself who is in control of

keeping

> > myself tended to.Nowadays at the first sign of the flu or a cold I pay

> > attention and go buy myself juice and treats like mangos and chicken

> > vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle with *knowing* that I

can

> > control and direct my own survival and prevent my own " demise " --parts

of me

> > also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential anxiety

because I

> > feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's hard at

times

> > to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these very

> > young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated from

our

> > immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to address

our

> > adult needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are

protected

> > from extremity.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

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