Re: another inappropriate response (cognitive disonan...

October 9, 2010

Wow, you're braver than me. I'd be afraid that if I tried to help my nada bathe

herself when she didn't want to, she would interpret that as me deliberately

trying to hurt her.

A couple of years ago nada blamed Sister for exacerbating an injury nada'd

already received alone in her own home. Nada had a minor slip-and-fall one

night, but even minor falls can break bones in the elderly who have

osteoporosis. Nada broke several arm/wrist bones. Nada refused to call 911,

though, and waited until around mid-morning before phoning Sister about it

claiming that Sister would " be mad " at her for calling at night.

By waiting nearly 12 hours, the injuries had swollen up and delayed the

treatment, so nada got extended play on her role as the pitiful victim who was

" afraid " to call her daughter for help. So, she's quite capable of putting a

negative, blaming spin on things already, even without the complicating factor

of Alzheimers.

I plan to never be alone with my nada ever again, for that and other reasons.

Mainly because yes, she is nuts.

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > Hi Charlie,

> > > >

> > > > I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have time

> to try

> > > to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

> > > spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and

> > > consequences is right on the money.

> > > >

> > > > Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since we

> > > couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap a

> > > " reward " from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only " reward "

> we got

> > > from managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve

> *their*

> > > needs,never ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve from

> > > punishment that was mainly hollow because there was always the threat

> of

> > > punishment the next time.We were used,manipulated and abandoned--not

> > > raised,not parented.And like you said,held captive: captive to a

> mentally

> > > ill person's arbitrary whims.There was no rhyme or reason of action

> follows

> > > consequence that a child could understand aside from dreading

> punishment and

> > > wanting to avoid it.

> > > >

> > > > Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went in

> to the

> > > kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like sh*t

> or

> > > threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I didn't

> > > exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet

> every

> > > morning *I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen and

> said

> > > good morning or started to.If the same exact behavior from me elicited

> > > wildly different reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make sense

> of

> > > that? Since I was too young to think of my own mother: Oh well,she's

> > > crazy,don't take anything she says seriously...

> > > >

> > > > And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like with

> your

> > > happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when we

> are

> > > trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't

> mirrored

> > > back to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents had

> > > terrible eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember feeling

> > > nauseous and sick from eating too much junk.I actually *liked*

> vegetables

> > > because when I got to eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't feel

> > > sick.So when we went grocery shopping I tried to " help " nada make

> better

> > > food choices by asking her to buy spinach or Cream of Wheat instead of

> Pop

> > > Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants that,it's gross.I'm not buying

> that. "

> > > >

> > > > *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that *nobody*

> wants

> > > that.The consequence to my action there being: you are nobody.Which is

> what

> > > your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be healthy

> mean

> > > nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

> > > >

> > > > I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the consequences

> of my

> > > actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must

> simply

> > > endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to access

> > > because it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later memories,from

> about

> > > four onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body

> remembers

> > > me feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find

> nada,but I

> > > have a clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not to

> drink

> > > orange juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me heart

> burn is

> > > easy.But I have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I won't

> have

> > > to simply endure being tired the next day--I have to *remind* myself

> that I

> > > can in fact *prevent* being too tired *myself*,by my own actions.It's

> the

> > > infant in me that never learned that and accessing the awareness that

> my

> > > infant self doesn't know how to prevent tiredness still amounts to me

> having

> > > to even notice when I'm going into " helplessly enduring " it mode.

> > > >

> > > > A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all day--when a

> > > friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and

> eating

> > > well,I absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but was

> trying

> > > to gather my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that answered

> his

> > > question.To him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't gather

> > > strength from NOTHING. "

> > > >

> > > > When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly what I

> had

> > > been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather

> strength

> > > from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said the

> same

> > > thing to nada or fada,they would have been like: Yeah,ok,whatever.My

> actions

> > > that day (not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying

> there in

> > > bed with the flu believing that I could just gather my forces out of

> thin

> > > air and swan off to the grocery store to buy soup--which made no

> sense.I had

> > > learned so early to stoically endure consequences I couldn't prevent

> that my

> > > own actions were like a moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've had

> to

> > > retrain myself to be that caretaker to myself who is in control of

> keeping

> > > myself tended to.Nowadays at the first sign of the flu or a cold I pay

> > > attention and go buy myself juice and treats like mangos and chicken

> > > vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle with *knowing* that I

> can

> > > control and direct my own survival and prevent my own " demise " --parts

> of me

> > > also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential anxiety

> because I

> > > feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's hard at

> times

> > > to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these very

> > > young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated from

> our

> > > immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to address

> our

> > > adult needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are

> protected

> > > from extremity.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

>

October 10, 2010

Annie, what is up with them not calling 911 when their hurt. My parents

have done it numerous times over the past 7 years. For years they would not

hesitate after a fall or injury to call my husband & I. And the obedient

KO that I was, would rush over there and my husband would pick up nada off

the floor, I'd tend to her wounds. I'd ask fada why he didn't call 911 and

his reply was always " well, she didn't want me to " . How stupid is that?

Finally after several years of this, I told fada that if either one of them

fell again, to call 911, not my husband & I. Most of their slip & falls

were not minor and we had no business even moving nada from the floor to the

bed. My husband & I would end up calling 911 anyway because nada's wound

were so bad. And, yes, I would get yelled at and blamed by nada for

calling 911; She'd scream at me from her hospital bed " get me out of this GD

place, this is your fault! " . Even thru alzheimers, they can still twist and

manipulate and turn it all around on you. Amazing, really.

Laurie

In a message dated 10/9/2010 9:02:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

Wow, you're braver than me. I'd be afraid that if I tried to help my nada

bathe herself when she didn't want to, she would interpret that as me

deliberately trying to hurt her.

A couple of years ago nada blamed Sister for exacerbating an injury nada'd

already received alone in her own home. Nada had a minor slip-and-fall one

night, but even minor falls can break bones in the elderly who have

osteoporosis. Nada broke several arm/wrist bones. Nada refused to call 911,

though, and waited until around mid-morning before phoning Sister about it

claiming that Sister would " be mad " at her for calling at night.

By waiting nearly 12 hours, the injuries had swollen up and delayed the

treatment, so nada got extended play on her role as the pitiful victim who

was " afraid " to call her daughter for help. So, she's quite capable of

putting a negative, blaming spin on things already, even without the

complicating

factor of Alzheimers.

I plan to never be alone with my nada ever again, for that and other

reasons. Mainly because yes, she is nuts.

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > Hi Charlie,

> > > >

> > > > I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have time

> to try

> > > to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

> > > spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and

> > > consequences is right on the money.

> > > >

> > > > Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since we

> > > couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap a

> > > " reward " from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only

" reward "

> we got

> > > from managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve

> *their*

> > > needs,never ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve

from

> > > punishment that was mainly hollow because there was always the

threat

> of

> > > punishment the next time.We were used,manipulated and abandoned--not

> > > raised,not parented.And like you said,held captive: captive to a

> mentally

> > > ill person's arbitrary whims.There was no rhyme or reason of action

> follows

> > > consequence that a child could understand aside from dreading

> punishment and

> > > wanting to avoid it.

> > > >

> > > > Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went in

> to the

> > > kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like

sh*t

> or

> > > threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I

didn't

> > > exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet

> every

> > > morning *I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen and

> said

> > > good morning or started to.If the same exact behavior from me

elicited

> > > wildly different reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make

sense

> of

> > > that? Since I was too young to think of my own mother: Oh well,she's

> > > crazy,don't take anything she says seriously...

> > > >

> > > > And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like with

> your

> > > happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when we

> are

> > > trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't

> mirrored

> > > back to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents

had

> > > terrible eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember

feeling

> > > nauseous and sick from eating too much junk.I actually *liked*

> vegetables

> > > because when I got to eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't

feel

> > > sick.So when we went grocery shopping I tried to " help " nada make

> better

> > > food choices by asking her to buy spinach or Cream of Wheat instead

of

> Pop

> > > Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants that,it's gross.I'm not

buying

> that. "

> > > >

> > > > *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that *nobody*

> wants

> > > that.The consequence to my action there being: you are nobody.Which

is

> what

> > > your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be healthy

> mean

> > > nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

> > > >

> > > > I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the

consequences

> of my

> > > actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must

> simply

> > > endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to

access

> > > because it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later

memories,from

> about

> > > four onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body

> remembers

> > > me feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find

> nada,but I

> > > have a clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not

to

> drink

> > > orange juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me heart

> burn is

> > > easy.But I have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I

won't

> have

> > > to simply endure being tired the next day--I have to *remind* myself

> that I

> > > can in fact *prevent* being too tired *myself*,by my own

actions.It's

> the

> > > infant in me that never learned that and accessing the awareness

that

> my

> > > infant self doesn't know how to prevent tiredness still amounts to

me

> having

> > > to even notice when I'm going into " helplessly enduring " it mode.

> > > >

> > > > A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all day--when

a

> > > friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and

> eating

> > > well,I absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but was

> trying

> > > to gather my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that

answered

> his

> > > question.To him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't

gather

> > > strength from NOTHING. "

> > > >

> > > > When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly what

I

> had

> > > been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather

> strength

> > > from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said the

> same

> > > thing to nada or fada,they would have been like: Yeah,ok,whatever.My

> actions

> > > that day (not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying

> there in

> > > bed with the flu believing that I could just gather my forces out of

> thin

> > > air and swan off to the grocery store to buy soup--which made no

> sense.I had

> > > learned so early to stoically endure consequences I couldn't prevent

> that my

> > > own actions were like a moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've

had

> to

> > > retrain myself to be that caretaker to myself who is in control of

> keeping

> > > myself tended to.Nowadays at the first sign of the flu or a cold I

pay

> > > attention and go buy myself juice and treats like mangos and chicken

> > > vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle with *knowing* that

I

> can

> > > control and direct my own survival and prevent my own

" demise " --parts

> of me

> > > also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential anxiety

> because I

> > > feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's hard at

> times

> > > to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these

very

> > > young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated from

> our

> > > immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to

address

> our

> > > adult needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are

> protected

> > > from extremity.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

October 10, 2010

Wow,Annie...god...what your nada did is so much like my fada.I think you're very

wise to protect yourself from any false allegations of maltreatment.I agree with

you that,unfortunately,your nada is quite capable of doing that.

If you don't mind me asking,do you have an idea of why your nada blamed

your sister like she did? I mean,do you think it was more manipulation/trotting

out the victim card to score points or do you think there was also some paranoia

involved?

My fada did things like what you've described here a few times when he

had a health problem but didn't call on me to help him claiming I'd be " mad " if

he did so.Although I had told him to call me right away if he needed me,even if

it was four o clock in the morning.I'm sure your sister had also clearly

communicated to your nada that she was available if there was an emergency.She

is fortunate to have you to back her up and be a co-voice of sanity!

In my case fada was able to employ a sick triangulation with my brother

with fada as (my) victim,me as the persecutor who would be " mad " if he

" bothered " me and my brother as the rescuer who had to travel from many miles

away to help fada when he had a health crisis because he was too " afraid " to ask

me--but never even *told* me he was having X problem.Fada also told other family

members that I became " angry " with him if he had a problem and needed my

help,which couldn't have been farther from the truth.I was often

concerned,yes,and insisted he make an appointment with his doctor/s and took him

to them,but I never got angry with him.Even when he was diagnosed with a

terminal condition and knew he was going to die,he didn't tell me.I was visiting

him in the hospital regularly at the time and he lied to me and told me he was

going into rehab when in fact he was being sent to hospice to die.I had a

project going on at work that was going to cut into evening visitation hours and

he told me not to worry about him,he was fine,just concentrate on your project

this week.While the other family members all knew the doctors had said he was

going to die and assumed I also knew this,so during the week they were all

comforting him through the terminal diagnosis I was suddenly AWOL.He let them

assume I wasn't there because I just didn't care.Of course if I had known he was

being sent to hospice the next week to die I would have made arrangements at

work to be dismissed from the project.Of course when I found out what was really

going on and insisted that I hadn't known,the FOO accused me of lying.I had left

work early that evening because he hadn't answered his phone all day and when I

got to the hospital was told he had been taken to the hospice and I was standing

there all confused and going, " I think you mean he was taken to the rehab center "

and the poor nurse was patting me on the arm and saying, " No,honey,I'm so

sorry,but no,your father was sent to hospice " and my heart was pounding because

it was all so surreal--that was how I found out he was dying.

If my brother and I had been functioning as a team and working together

from the basis of our father being mentally ill,that would not have happened.But

he was operating from the assumption that I always got " angry " with fada if he

had a problem.And actually dying would qualify as a major problem,wouldn't it!

So fada had set me up to look like this horrible,cold hearted daughter who just

dumped him in his hour of most dire need.

Sorry this is so long.I wish I knew how to condense all this

complicated crap better.The point I'm so laboriously trying to make here is that

reflecting on what he did right before he died (and other instances before

then),I see paranoia in addition to sheer manipulation.He didn't trust me,at

all.I'd say fada is on the Cluster B spectrum with mainly features of NPD and

BPD,not so much sociopathy like nada.I remember you calling BPD " schizophrenia

lite " and when I read your post,I was like,my god: The way he was behaving was

like " paranoid schizophrenia lite " because he seemed to believe he *had* to lie

to me to protect himself.It's crazy.Protect himself from a daughter who would

have been there for him if only she'd known what was going on?

That night he told me not to worry about him--he'd go to rehab while I

concentrated on work--I had moved his IV trolley very slightly to the side

intending to make space for me to bend over his bed and kiss him goodnight on

the forehead before I left.As soon as I touched the IV trolley,he snarled, " Don't

touch that,I need that " as if I intended to rip out his IVs.I murmured gently, " I

was just moving it a little bit so I can kiss you goodnight " and he submitted to

my goodnight kiss without a word.Now I wonder if,instead of understanding my

intentions,he was laying there thinking: Yeah,sure,you were--like a paranoid.

Later,after I had discovered he was actually dying and asked him why

in the world he hadn't told me,he muttered cryptically, " That's just the way it

is. "

Just the way what is? That you demonized me all of my life so you'd

never have to bear the guilt of abusing me? And that now you must continue to

see me as demonic rather than caring so you won't have to deal with how very

wrong you are,how very wrong you were,how very wrong you have always been with

me? Even to the point of this developing into actual paranoia,like a paranoid

schizophrenic who believes someone wants to poison them and pretends to sip the

drink they offer him while thinking inwardly: Ha ha,you thought you could trick

me but I just tricked *you*.Who then tells others in all seriousness, " She tried

to poison me but I got away,I was on to her game. "

Just...not as obviously as that: " paranoid schizophrenia lite " where

the Cluster B is substituting the other person's " anger " and abandonment for

poisoning: I couldn't get help from this person for my injury because I was so

afraid of angering them and now look how much worse it all is...When that fear

has no basis in reality; when that fear is in fact paranoia.When that " fear "

pretty much amounts to mistrusting someone like a paranoid schizophrenic,at

least in the moment.Because I don't think that fada layed there in his hospital

bed and plotted out that lie he told me--it was more like he came up with it

irrationally in order to " protect " himself.And I think what he was protecting

himself from,was awareness.

Like: due to my personality disordered thinking,if I admit into my

awareness that my daughter is in fact a decent person who has good will towards

me,not malice,then I was wrong to have demonized her/split her all bad,as a

child.Because my thought process is fairly primitive,if she is " good " now,she

would have also been " good " then.But if she is good and I made a mistake,that

makes me bad.If I am a bad person who makes mistakes on the order of despising

my own child for no reason,the awareness of that will annihilate me on the

spot.So I must protect myself from annihilating awareness by reinforcing for

myself my perception of her as threatening: that my own vulnerablity would anger

her; that if I am in need,she will be " mad " at me and now my broken arm is so

swollen/I am actually dying it is clear,it must be clear to all witnesses,that I

AM the victim here.The innocent victim who was afraid to call for help,like the

man who was offered a poisoned drink and didn't say anything until he was " safe "

in the presence of people he could tell his story to.

I don't know if I'm explaining this very well but your post made me

think that BPD/Cluster B really *is* a form of " schizophrenia lite " .The mistrust

they have is that extreme.Even of their own children.It does amount to

" psychosis lite " even if it's temporary,yet it's such a deeply entrenched

unconscious process that it will inevitably repeat.My fada couldn't stop doing

it even when he was *dying*.I was expecting him to want to clear the decks and

make amends at the end of his life but he couldn't--he was too mentally ill.

Again,you are wise to be taking your nada's mental illness on board and

to protect yourself.It's so damned tragic.And again,your sister is fortunate to

have you as back up.

>

> Wow, you're braver than me. I'd be afraid that if I tried to help my nada

bathe herself when she didn't want to, she would interpret that as me

deliberately trying to hurt her.

>

> A couple of years ago nada blamed Sister for exacerbating an injury nada'd

already received alone in her own home. Nada had a minor slip-and-fall one

night, but even minor falls can break bones in the elderly who have

osteoporosis. Nada broke several arm/wrist bones. Nada refused to call 911,

though, and waited until around mid-morning before phoning Sister about it

claiming that Sister would " be mad " at her for calling at night.

>

> By waiting nearly 12 hours, the injuries had swollen up and delayed the

treatment, so nada got extended play on her role as the pitiful victim who was

" afraid " to call her daughter for help. So, she's quite capable of putting a

negative, blaming spin on things already, even without the complicating factor

of Alzheimers.

>

> I plan to never be alone with my nada ever again, for that and other reasons.

Mainly because yes, she is nuts.

>

> -Annie

October 10, 2010

- I'm sorry. Wow, I know that hurt you.

And never worry about posting something long. We will read it. Here for you.

And now I have a question - is alzheimers common in BPDs? Sounds like it is,

at least according to this group. Dear God, I need to triple up my NC if

nada is not just going to be a crazy bitch, but an alzheimer's crazy bitch.

Wow, my blood is running cold imagining that.

>

> Annie, what is up with them not calling 911 when their hurt. My parents

> have done it numerous times over the past 7 years. For years they would not

>

> hesitate after a fall or injury to call my husband & I. And the obedient

> KO that I was, would rush over there and my husband would pick up nada off

> the floor, I'd tend to her wounds. I'd ask fada why he didn't call 911 and

> his reply was always " well, she didn't want me to " . How stupid is that?

> Finally after several years of this, I told fada that if either one of them

>

> fell again, to call 911, not my husband & I. Most of their slip & falls

> were not minor and we had no business even moving nada from the floor to

> the

> bed. My husband & I would end up calling 911 anyway because nada's wound

> were so bad. And, yes, I would get yelled at and blamed by nada for

> calling 911; She'd scream at me from her hospital bed " get me out of this

> GD

> place, this is your fault! " . Even thru alzheimers, they can still twist and

>

> manipulate and turn it all around on you. Amazing, really.

>

> Laurie

>

> In a message dated 10/9/2010 9:02:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> anuria-67854@... <anuria-67854%40mypacks.net> writes:

>

> Wow, you're braver than me. I'd be afraid that if I tried to help my nada

> bathe herself when she didn't want to, she would interpret that as me

> deliberately trying to hurt her.

>

> A couple of years ago nada blamed Sister for exacerbating an injury nada'd

> already received alone in her own home. Nada had a minor slip-and-fall one

> night, but even minor falls can break bones in the elderly who have

> osteoporosis. Nada broke several arm/wrist bones. Nada refused to call 911,

>

> though, and waited until around mid-morning before phoning Sister about it

> claiming that Sister would " be mad " at her for calling at night.

>

> By waiting nearly 12 hours, the injuries had swollen up and delayed the

> treatment, so nada got extended play on her role as the pitiful victim who

> was " afraid " to call her daughter for help. So, she's quite capable of

> putting a negative, blaming spin on things already, even without the

> complicating

> factor of Alzheimers.

>

> I plan to never be alone with my nada ever again, for that and other

> reasons. Mainly because yes, she is nuts.

>

> -Annie

>

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Charlie,

> > > > >

> > > > > I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have time

>

> > to try

> > > > to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

> > > > spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and

> > > > consequences is right on the money.

> > > > >

> > > > > Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since we

> > > > couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap a

> > > > " reward " from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only

> " reward "

> > we got

> > > > from managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve

> > *their*

> > > > needs,never ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve

> from

> > > > punishment that was mainly hollow because there was always the

> threat

> > of

> > > > punishment the next time.We were used,manipulated and abandoned--not

> > > > raised,not parented.And like you said,held captive: captive to a

> > mentally

> > > > ill person's arbitrary whims.There was no rhyme or reason of action

> > follows

> > > > consequence that a child could understand aside from dreading

> > punishment and

> > > > wanting to avoid it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went in

> > to the

> > > > kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like

> sh*t

> > or

> > > > threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I

> didn't

> > > > exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet

> > every

> > > > morning *I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen and

> > said

> > > > good morning or started to.If the same exact behavior from me

> elicited

> > > > wildly different reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make

> sense

> > of

> > > > that? Since I was too young to think of my own mother: Oh well,she's

> > > > crazy,don't take anything she says seriously...

> > > > >

> > > > > And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like with

> > your

> > > > happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when we

> > are

> > > > trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't

> > mirrored

> > > > back to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents

> had

> > > > terrible eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember

> feeling

> > > > nauseous and sick from eating too much junk.I actually *liked*

> > vegetables

> > > > because when I got to eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't

> feel

> > > > sick.So when we went grocery shopping I tried to " help " nada make

> > better

> > > > food choices by asking her to buy spinach or Cream of Wheat instead

> of

> > Pop

> > > > Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants that,it's gross.I'm not

> buying

> > that. "

> > > > >

> > > > > *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that *nobody*

> > wants

> > > > that.The consequence to my action there being: you are nobody.Which

> is

> > what

> > > > your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be healthy

> > mean

> > > > nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the

> consequences

> > of my

> > > > actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must

> > simply

> > > > endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to

> access

> > > > because it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later

> memories,from

> > about

> > > > four onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body

> > remembers

> > > > me feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find

> > nada,but I

> > > > have a clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not

> to

> > drink

> > > > orange juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me heart

>

> > burn is

> > > > easy.But I have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I

> won't

> > have

> > > > to simply endure being tired the next day--I have to *remind* myself

> > that I

> > > > can in fact *prevent* being too tired *myself*,by my own

> actions.It's

> > the

> > > > infant in me that never learned that and accessing the awareness

> that

> > my

> > > > infant self doesn't know how to prevent tiredness still amounts to

> me

> > having

> > > > to even notice when I'm going into " helplessly enduring " it mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all day--when

> a

> > > > friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and

> > eating

> > > > well,I absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but was

> > trying

> > > > to gather my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that

> answered

> > his

> > > > question.To him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't

> gather

> > > > strength from NOTHING. "

> > > > >

> > > > > When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly what

> I

> > had

> > > > been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather

> > strength

> > > > from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said the

> > same

> > > > thing to nada or fada,they would have been like: Yeah,ok,whatever.My

> > actions

> > > > that day (not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying

> > there in

> > > > bed with the flu believing that I could just gather my forces out of

> > thin

> > > > air and swan off to the grocery store to buy soup--which made no

> > sense.I had

> > > > learned so early to stoically endure consequences I couldn't prevent

> > that my

> > > > own actions were like a moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've

> had

> > to

> > > > retrain myself to be that caretaker to myself who is in control of

> > keeping

> > > > myself tended to.Nowadays at the first sign of the flu or a cold I

> pay

> > > > attention and go buy myself juice and treats like mangos and chicken

> > > > vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle with *knowing* that

> I

> > can

> > > > control and direct my own survival and prevent my own

> " demise " --parts

> > of me

> > > > also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential anxiety

> > because I

> > > > feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's hard at

> > times

> > > > to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these

> very

> > > > young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated from

> > our

> > > > immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to

> address

> > our

> > > > adult needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are

> > protected

> > > > from extremity.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

October 10, 2010

My theory is that there is a set of baseline needs that my nada must have: she

needs to be seen as perfect, she needs to be seen as a victim, and she needs to

be in control. (The fact that these needs tend to contradict each other is

beside the point; she is after all insane.)

All her other behaviors and delusions come into play to support those baseline

needs.

You are indeed correct, and my Sister has told our nada repeatedly that its OK

to call anytime IF ITS AN EMERGENCY. Nada had also repeatedly been told to not

call between certain hours at night because Sister's son was both in college and

working part time, and badly needed his sleep UNLESS IT WAS AN EMERGENCY,

But nada's need to be seen as perfect probably conjured up this kind of

self-dialogue ( " I'm not stupid enough to slip and fall and I don't have

osteoporosis and my bones aren't broken... " ).

Sister gave nada a narcissistic injury by forbidding nada to phone her at night

unless it was an emergency, so, this was a perfect opportunity for nada to " get

Sister back " for setting that boundary with her. ( " I'll show her, she can't

tell ME what to do! " , thinks nada.) Delaying her call served nada's purpose by

making her look pathetic and victimized by Sister. It also served her need for

control. ( " I'LL decide when or if I'm going to call my daughter. " )

So all the projecting, the dissociating, the denying, the delusions, the

paranoia... all of these serve nada's baseline needs. They prop us this false

reality she's constructed to live in, in which she is the perfect mother AND a

victim of her nasty, selfish, hateful, lying, ungrateful, crazy children. But

she's in control, and perfect, thank you very much.

-Annie

> >

> > Wow, you're braver than me. I'd be afraid that if I tried to help my nada

bathe herself when she didn't want to, she would interpret that as me

deliberately trying to hurt her.

> >

> > A couple of years ago nada blamed Sister for exacerbating an injury nada'd

already received alone in her own home. Nada had a minor slip-and-fall one

night, but even minor falls can break bones in the elderly who have

osteoporosis. Nada broke several arm/wrist bones. Nada refused to call 911,

though, and waited until around mid-morning before phoning Sister about it

claiming that Sister would " be mad " at her for calling at night.

> >

> > By waiting nearly 12 hours, the injuries had swollen up and delayed the

treatment, so nada got extended play on her role as the pitiful victim who was

" afraid " to call her daughter for help. So, she's quite capable of putting a

negative, blaming spin on things already, even without the complicating factor

of Alzheimers.

> >

> > I plan to never be alone with my nada ever again, for that and other

reasons. Mainly because yes, she is nuts.

> >

> > -Annie

>

October 10, 2010

I'm just speculating here, but there could be several reasons why some of our

elderly parents refuse to do things like call 911 when they're hurt, or call a

cab when they need a ride. These might be some of the reasons that occur to

them:

1. I'm afraid of how much it will cost to call an ambulance.

2. The paramedics are authority figures and I won't be in control once they

arrive.

3. Paramedics are emotionally detached professionals, they're not personally

emotionally invested in me. They may even scold me or prevent me from revving

up into a really fine & dramatic hysteria fit.

4. My adult children won't be here to experience all the drama and they won't be

here to attempt to comfort me; I won't have an audience.

5. Simply calling an ambulance or a cab will interfere with my ability to play

the victim; by calmly dealing with this issue, I'm just being a reasonable and

responsible adult. How boring.

6. That's what my adult children are for: its their job to take care of me, now.

7. This will get me a lot of attention and time from my adult children.

8. I can be dramatic and cry and wail loudly, and I can scream at them and call

them stupid and clumsy for hurting me when they try to help me, and I'll feel

quite justified in doing so. What a great opportunity to hurl emotional abuse

at them! I can make them feel guilty for not living closer to me and showing up

quicker, too!

9. I can be in total control for a while. I can tell my adult children what to

do and how to do it, and they will obey me.

10. It won't cost me anything; my adult children will pick up the tab.

Just my two cents worth.

-Annie

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Charlie,

> > > > >

> > > > > I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have time

>

> > to try

> > > > to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

> > > > spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and

> > > > consequences is right on the money.

> > > > >

> > > > > Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since we

> > > > couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap a

> > > > " reward " from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only

> " reward "

> > we got

> > > > from managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve

> > *their*

> > > > needs,never ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve

> from

> > > > punishment that was mainly hollow because there was always the

> threat

> > of

> > > > punishment the next time.We were used,manipulated and abandoned--not

> > > > raised,not parented.And like you said,held captive: captive to a

> > mentally

> > > > ill person's arbitrary whims.There was no rhyme or reason of action

> > follows

> > > > consequence that a child could understand aside from dreading

> > punishment and

> > > > wanting to avoid it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went in

> > to the

> > > > kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like

> sh*t

> > or

> > > > threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I

> didn't

> > > > exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet

> > every

> > > > morning *I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen and

> > said

> > > > good morning or started to.If the same exact behavior from me

> elicited

> > > > wildly different reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make

> sense

> > of

> > > > that? Since I was too young to think of my own mother: Oh well,she's

> > > > crazy,don't take anything she says seriously...

> > > > >

> > > > > And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like with

> > your

> > > > happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when we

> > are

> > > > trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't

> > mirrored

> > > > back to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents

> had

> > > > terrible eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember

> feeling

> > > > nauseous and sick from eating too much junk.I actually *liked*

> > vegetables

> > > > because when I got to eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't

> feel

> > > > sick.So when we went grocery shopping I tried to " help " nada make

> > better

> > > > food choices by asking her to buy spinach or Cream of Wheat instead

> of

> > Pop

> > > > Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants that,it's gross.I'm not

> buying

> > that. "

> > > > >

> > > > > *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that *nobody*

> > wants

> > > > that.The consequence to my action there being: you are nobody.Which

> is

> > what

> > > > your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be healthy

> > mean

> > > > nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the

> consequences

> > of my

> > > > actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must

> > simply

> > > > endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to

> access

> > > > because it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later

> memories,from

> > about

> > > > four onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body

> > remembers

> > > > me feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find

> > nada,but I

> > > > have a clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not

> to

> > drink

> > > > orange juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me heart

>

> > burn is

> > > > easy.But I have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I

> won't

> > have

> > > > to simply endure being tired the next day--I have to *remind* myself

> > that I

> > > > can in fact *prevent* being too tired *myself*,by my own

> actions.It's

> > the

> > > > infant in me that never learned that and accessing the awareness

> that

> > my

> > > > infant self doesn't know how to prevent tiredness still amounts to

> me

> > having

> > > > to even notice when I'm going into " helplessly enduring " it mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all day--when

> a

> > > > friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and

> > eating

> > > > well,I absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but was

> > trying

> > > > to gather my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that

> answered

> > his

> > > > question.To him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't

> gather

> > > > strength from NOTHING. "

> > > > >

> > > > > When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly what

> I

> > had

> > > > been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather

> > strength

> > > > from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said the

> > same

> > > > thing to nada or fada,they would have been like: Yeah,ok,whatever.My

> > actions

> > > > that day (not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying

> > there in

> > > > bed with the flu believing that I could just gather my forces out of

> > thin

> > > > air and swan off to the grocery store to buy soup--which made no

> > sense.I had

> > > > learned so early to stoically endure consequences I couldn't prevent

> > that my

> > > > own actions were like a moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've

> had

> > to

> > > > retrain myself to be that caretaker to myself who is in control of

> > keeping

> > > > myself tended to.Nowadays at the first sign of the flu or a cold I

> pay

> > > > attention and go buy myself juice and treats like mangos and chicken

> > > > vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle with *knowing* that

> I

> > can

> > > > control and direct my own survival and prevent my own

> " demise " --parts

> > of me

> > > > also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential anxiety

> > because I

> > > > feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's hard at

> > times

> > > > to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these

> very

> > > > young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated from

> > our

> > > > immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to

> address

> > our

> > > > adult needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are

> > protected

> > > > from extremity.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

>

October 10, 2010

Wow , our dinner time was very different. Nada cooked every

night; roasts, potatoes, rolls, the kicker is the ONLY veg. fada liked was peas,

which happens to be the only one I hate. I'd have to sit at the table for

hours after dinner was over until I ate all of them; gagging all the way.

Let me just say, we ended up with a health collie dog! She loved peas.

What she didn't eat, I put in the planter on the kitchen table. Mind you,

bro and sis never had to eat their peas. What the hell?

Laurie

In a message dated 10/10/2010 9:06:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

christine.depizan@... writes:

My parents were both into playing a sport--nada was an avid tennis player

who played regularly with a few different partners and fada was a soccer

coach.But the cognitive dissonance was that neither of them ate decent

food--nada's tennis matches were fueled by diet Tab and potato chips; fada

stuffed his face at Mc's or KFC and then went off to play soccer.After

every game he bought himself a huge " Slurpee " --if you don't have those out your

way basically they're iced sugar water and artificial dye.Fada eventually

acquired adult onset diabetes even though he was still a soccer coach and

still getting plenty of exercize.

We didn't have set mealtimes.A typical dinner was a bag of rolls on the

table and some packages of lunch meat and everyone helped themselves.A fancy

meal was when nada heated up tv dinners.It's shocking to me now that my

brother and I almost never ate wholesome food as children.

Their own parents weren't like this.They had both eaten real dinners every

night with a fresh protein and fresh vegetables.It's like,to them,being an

independant adult meant: I get to eat all the candy I want now and I don't

have to have yucky vegetables anymore,I'm all grown up!

Our kitchen cupboards were full of cookies,chips,candy bars.We always had

a variety of ice cream in the fridge.They didn't care if my brother and I

helped ourselves to this junk at our whim: we were never told no,you can't

have another cookie,you've already had too many.Nada went through phases of

not feeding me at all (long story,but she always fed my brother) and to

this day the memory of having nothing to eat but sugary junk makes me want to

throw up.I remember having such a terrible headache from going days without

an actual meal at a time when nada wasn't feeding me and deciding to eat a

raw lemon in the hope that eating something approximating real food would

cure my headache--because I could *not* eat another cookie or candy bar,even

trying to was SO nauseating.Being so hungry I felt faint but the only

" food " I could scavenge for myself was junk that made me feel sick.That was a

weekend when the only nutritious things I found to eat were that lemon and

some c elery.

My friends loved to come over to my house for snacktime.They thought it

was awesome that they could have all the candy bars they

wanted. " Wow,,you're so lucky " they said...while I was thinking: You're

going to go

home to a hot meal of real food--now,you are *really* lucky...

The upside to all this is that junk and candy still make me feel sick and

balanced hot meals still feel like a real treat so I'm a pretty healthy

eater

>

> Beautiful post - wow!!!

>

> What health lessons did you guys learn? My Nada was TERRIBLE with

anything

> related to physical health. She ate tootsie rolls out of the bottom of

her

> purse constantly, swilled coke (later diet coke for her 300 lb figure)

and

> consumed entire bags of sour cream and onion chips in a sitting. She

also

> hid and hoarded food in her underwear drawer (my God, the crumbs!)

>

> My health as a child was not good. My grandmother would feed me real

meals,

> and my dad would. . . but not nada.

>

> Just wondered, my guess is that there will be 2 schools of thought - the

> extremly controlled BPDs who wouldn't let a potato chip cross their

> threshhold and would tell you you were fat for even seeing it and the

other

> - the BPD with absolutly no interest in health or knowledge or curiosity

and

> horrible habits.

>

> Interesting that I went on to major in public health in school, isn't it

> I guess I saw a knowledge gap.

October 10, 2010

Wow Annie, sure do wish I could have lunch with you one day. You are so

right-on all the time! About 7 yrs ago, I told nada not to call me EVER

after 4PM; her cocktail time. She never called me again, ever. Her

controlling the situation? I think so.

Laurie

In a message dated 10/10/2010 12:45:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

My theory is that there is a set of baseline needs that my nada must have:

she needs to be seen as perfect, she needs to be seen as a victim, and she

needs to be in control. (The fact that these needs tend to contradict each

other is beside the point; she is after all insane.)

All her other behaviors and delusions come into play to support those

baseline needs.

You are indeed correct, and my Sister has told our nada repeatedly that

its OK to call anytime IF ITS AN EMERGENCY. Nada had also repeatedly been

told to not call between certain hours at night because Sister's son was both

in college and working part time, and badly needed his sleep UNLESS IT WAS

AN EMERGENCY,

But nada's need to be seen as perfect probably conjured up this kind of

self-dialogue ( " I'm not stupid enough to slip and fall and I don't have

osteoporosis and my bones aren't broken... " ).

Sister gave nada a narcissistic injury by forbidding nada to phone her at

night unless it was an emergency, so, this was a perfect opportunity for

nada to " get Sister back " for setting that boundary with her. ( " I'll show

her, she can't tell ME what to do! " , thinks nada.) Delaying her call served

nada's purpose by making her look pathetic and victimized by Sister. It also

served her need for control. ( " I'LL decide when or if I'm going to call my

daughter. " )

So all the projecting, the dissociating, the denying, the delusions, the

paranoia... all of these serve nada's baseline needs. They prop us this

false reality she's constructed to live in, in which she is the perfect mother

AND a victim of her nasty, selfish, hateful, lying, ungrateful, crazy

children. But she's in control, and perfect, thank you very much.

-Annie

> >

> > Wow, you're braver than me. I'd be afraid that if I tried to help my

nada bathe herself when she didn't want to, she would interpret that as me

deliberately trying to hurt her.

> >

> > A couple of years ago nada blamed Sister for exacerbating an injury

nada'd already received alone in her own home. Nada had a minor slip-and-fall

one night, but even minor falls can break bones in the elderly who have

osteoporosis. Nada broke several arm/wrist bones. Nada refused to call 911,

though, and waited until around mid-morning before phoning Sister about it

claiming that Sister would " be mad " at her for calling at night.

> >

> > By waiting nearly 12 hours, the injuries had swollen up and delayed

the treatment, so nada got extended play on her role as the pitiful victim

who was " afraid " to call her daughter for help. So, she's quite capable of

putting a negative, blaming spin on things already, even without the

complicating factor of Alzheimers.

> >

> > I plan to never be alone with my nada ever again, for that and other

reasons. Mainly because yes, she is nuts.

> >

> > -Annie

>

October 10, 2010

Wow! This describes my nada's phone behavior *exactly*. Wow. When I began

working full time after college I told my nada that I wanted to talk only on the

weekend unless it was an emergency because I had so little time after work and

it was exhausting. This resulted in her rarely ever calling me at all, even on

the weekend always up to me to call her. And of course if I didn't call when

she expected she'd lay the guilt on, but she wouldn't call me with anything even

when she should have. I found out FIVE YEARS later that she had been brooding,

stewing, and stirring a cauldron of hate over my setting a boundary on calls for

all of that time. The entire time. Even now many years later the phone is

still a source of bizarre dysfunctionality in our relationship. I haven't

tried to correct because really I'd rather choose when I talk to her anyway, but

still it adds to this baseline of nasty stuff not said but brewing in the

background.

Anyway Annie your theory about those three basic needs to be in control, the

victim, and perfect is one of the best summations of this I've heard.

>

> My theory is that there is a set of baseline needs that my nada must have: she

needs to be seen as perfect, she needs to be seen as a victim, and she needs to

be in control. (The fact that these needs tend to contradict each other is

beside the point; she is after all insane.)

>

> All her other behaviors and delusions come into play to support those baseline

needs.

>

> You are indeed correct, and my Sister has told our nada repeatedly that its OK

to call anytime IF ITS AN EMERGENCY. Nada had also repeatedly been told to not

call between certain hours at night because Sister's son was both in college and

working part time, and badly needed his sleep UNLESS IT WAS AN EMERGENCY,

>

> But nada's need to be seen as perfect probably conjured up this kind of

self-dialogue ( " I'm not stupid enough to slip and fall and I don't have

osteoporosis and my bones aren't broken... " ).

>

> Sister gave nada a narcissistic injury by forbidding nada to phone her at

night unless it was an emergency, so, this was a perfect opportunity for nada to

" get Sister back " for setting that boundary with her. ( " I'll show her, she

can't tell ME what to do! " , thinks nada.) Delaying her call served nada's

purpose by making her look pathetic and victimized by Sister. It also served

her need for control. ( " I'LL decide when or if I'm going to call my daughter. " )

>

> So all the projecting, the dissociating, the denying, the delusions, the

paranoia... all of these serve nada's baseline needs. They prop us this false

reality she's constructed to live in, in which she is the perfect mother AND a

victim of her nasty, selfish, hateful, lying, ungrateful, crazy children. But

she's in control, and perfect, thank you very much.

>

> -Annie

>

October 10, 2010

That's so kind of you Laurie. I'm glad that my posts are relevant for you; our

nadas must be really similar to each other. I find so much validation and

support here myself; I'm glad this Group is here for us KOs.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Wow, you're braver than me. I'd be afraid that if I tried to help my

> nada bathe herself when she didn't want to, she would interpret that as me

> deliberately trying to hurt her.

> > >

> > > A couple of years ago nada blamed Sister for exacerbating an injury

> nada'd already received alone in her own home. Nada had a minor slip-and-fall

> one night, but even minor falls can break bones in the elderly who have

> osteoporosis. Nada broke several arm/wrist bones. Nada refused to call 911,

> though, and waited until around mid-morning before phoning Sister about it

> claiming that Sister would " be mad " at her for calling at night.

> > >

> > > By waiting nearly 12 hours, the injuries had swollen up and delayed

> the treatment, so nada got extended play on her role as the pitiful victim

> who was " afraid " to call her daughter for help. So, she's quite capable of

> putting a negative, blaming spin on things already, even without the

> complicating factor of Alzheimers.

> > >

> > > I plan to never be alone with my nada ever again, for that and other

> reasons. Mainly because yes, she is nuts.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> >

>

October 10, 2010

I'm glad my theory gave you some insight; our nadas must be very like each other

also! I have observed that my nada definitely resented and rebelled against it

when either Sister or I gave her a boundary of any kind; we're not allowed to do

that, in nada's world. Only nada gets to make any rules. She's very much the

little despot.

My nada's retaliatory boundary ( " I won't call you even if I AM having an

emergency! " ) was meant to do damage. I think nada wanted to make Sister look

really bad, uncaring, mean and negligent to get back at Sister for setting the

" no night calls unless its an emergency " boundary. Nada felt compelled to " one

up " the situation, to get even PLUS do some damage as a warning or punishment.

That has to do with her baseline need to be in control at all times.

Understanding why she does these things doesn't make it hurt any less, but at

least it helps lessen the guilt a little, at least for me.

Bottom line: she is mentally ill. These are mentally ill behaviors.

Vengefulness is difficult enough to process and deal with as an adult KO; but no

minor child should be subjected to these kinds of mind games and punitive,

retaliatory, vindictive behaviors by their own parent. Its unconscionable.

-Annie

> >

> > My theory is that there is a set of baseline needs that my nada must have:

she needs to be seen as perfect, she needs to be seen as a victim, and she needs

to be in control. (The fact that these needs tend to contradict each other is

beside the point; she is after all insane.)

> >

> > All her other behaviors and delusions come into play to support those

baseline needs.

> >

> > You are indeed correct, and my Sister has told our nada repeatedly that its

OK to call anytime IF ITS AN EMERGENCY. Nada had also repeatedly been told to

not call between certain hours at night because Sister's son was both in college

and working part time, and badly needed his sleep UNLESS IT WAS AN EMERGENCY,

> >

> > But nada's need to be seen as perfect probably conjured up this kind of

self-dialogue ( " I'm not stupid enough to slip and fall and I don't have

osteoporosis and my bones aren't broken... " ).

> >

> > Sister gave nada a narcissistic injury by forbidding nada to phone her at

night unless it was an emergency, so, this was a perfect opportunity for nada to

" get Sister back " for setting that boundary with her. ( " I'll show her, she

can't tell ME what to do! " , thinks nada.) Delaying her call served nada's

purpose by making her look pathetic and victimized by Sister. It also served

her need for control. ( " I'LL decide when or if I'm going to call my daughter. " )

> >

> > So all the projecting, the dissociating, the denying, the delusions, the

paranoia... all of these serve nada's baseline needs. They prop us this false

reality she's constructed to live in, in which she is the perfect mother AND a

victim of her nasty, selfish, hateful, lying, ungrateful, crazy children. But

she's in control, and perfect, thank you very much.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

October 11, 2010

Laurie,gagging on peas is unnecessary torture!

Something that has struck me about this thread is that no matter what the

particular food issue was,many of us were reduced to wanting or needing to vomit

by our nadas over something as basic as sustenance.Very telling,I think.

> >

> > Beautiful post - wow!!!

> >

> > What health lessons did you guys learn? My Nada was TERRIBLE with

> anything

> > related to physical health. She ate tootsie rolls out of the bottom of

> her

> > purse constantly, swilled coke (later diet coke for her 300 lb figure)

> and

> > consumed entire bags of sour cream and onion chips in a sitting. She

> also

> > hid and hoarded food in her underwear drawer (my God, the crumbs!)

> >

> > My health as a child was not good. My grandmother would feed me real

> meals,

> > and my dad would. . . but not nada.

> >

> > Just wondered, my guess is that there will be 2 schools of thought - the

> > extremly controlled BPDs who wouldn't let a potato chip cross their

> > threshhold and would tell you you were fat for even seeing it and the

> other

> > - the BPD with absolutly no interest in health or knowledge or curiosity

> and

> > horrible habits.

> >

> > Interesting that I went on to major in public health in school, isn't it

>

> > I guess I saw a knowledge gap.

>

October 11, 2010

Mmmm,Annie,I'm chewing on this right now.I think it's brilliant and a propos but

I need to chew on it a bit.

" The fact that these needs tend to contradict eachother is beside the

point; she is after all insane " LOL--thanks for that--I got a nice kind of

gallows humor chuckle out of that

>

> My theory is that there is a set of baseline needs that my nada must have: she

needs to be seen as perfect, she needs to be seen as a victim, and she needs to

be in control. (The fact that these needs tend to contradict each other is

beside the point; she is after all insane.)

>

> All her other behaviors and delusions come into play to support those baseline

needs.

>

> You are indeed correct, and my Sister has told our nada repeatedly that its OK

to call anytime IF ITS AN EMERGENCY. Nada had also repeatedly been told to not

call between certain hours at night because Sister's son was both in college and

working part time, and badly needed his sleep UNLESS IT WAS AN EMERGENCY,

>

> But nada's need to be seen as perfect probably conjured up this kind of

self-dialogue ( " I'm not stupid enough to slip and fall and I don't have

osteoporosis and my bones aren't broken... " ).

>

> Sister gave nada a narcissistic injury by forbidding nada to phone her at

night unless it was an emergency, so, this was a perfect opportunity for nada to

" get Sister back " for setting that boundary with her. ( " I'll show her, she

can't tell ME what to do! " , thinks nada.) Delaying her call served nada's

purpose by making her look pathetic and victimized by Sister. It also served

her need for control. ( " I'LL decide when or if I'm going to call my daughter. " )

>

> So all the projecting, the dissociating, the denying, the delusions, the

paranoia... all of these serve nada's baseline needs. They prop us this false

reality she's constructed to live in, in which she is the perfect mother AND a

victim of her nasty, selfish, hateful, lying, ungrateful, crazy children. But

she's in control, and perfect, thank you very much.

>

> -Annie

October 11, 2010

All reasons listed make sense (not to you and me), but in their mixed up,

controlling minds, it makes sense.

thanks,

Laurie

In a message dated 10/10/2010 1:13:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

I'm just speculating here, but there could be several reasons why some of

our elderly parents refuse to do things like call 911 when they're hurt, or

call a cab when they need a ride. These might be some of the reasons that

occur to them:

1. I'm afraid of how much it will cost to call an ambulance.

2. The paramedics are authority figures and I won't be in control once

they arrive.

3. Paramedics are emotionally detached professionals, they're not

personally emotionally invested in me. They may even scold me or prevent me

from

revving up into a really fine & dramatic hysteria fit.

4. My adult children won't be here to experience all the drama and they

won't be here to attempt to comfort me; I won't have an audience.

5. Simply calling an ambulance or a cab will interfere with my ability to

play the victim; by calmly dealing with this issue, I'm just being a

reasonable and responsible adult. How boring.

6. That's what my adult children are for: its their job to take care of

me, now.

7. This will get me a lot of attention and time from my adult children.

8. I can be dramatic and cry and wail loudly, and I can scream at them and

call them stupid and clumsy for hurting me when they try to help me, and

I'll feel quite justified in doing so. What a great opportunity to hurl

emotional abuse at them! I can make them feel guilty for not living closer to

me and showing up quicker, too!

9. I can be in total control for a while. I can tell my adult children

what to do and how to do it, and they will obey me.

10. It won't cost me anything; my adult children will pick up the tab.

Just my two cents worth.

-Annie

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Charlie,

> > > > >

> > > > > I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have

time

>

> > to try

> > > > to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

> > > > spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and

> > > > consequences is right on the money.

> > > > >

> > > > > Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since

we

> > > > couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap

a

> > > > " reward " from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only

> " reward "

> > we got

> > > > from managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve

> > *their*

> > > > needs,never ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve

> from

> > > > punishment that was mainly hollow because there was always the

> threat

> > of

> > > > punishment the next time.We were used,manipulated and

abandoned--not

> > > > raised,not parented.And like you said,held captive: captive to a

> > mentally

> > > > ill person's arbitrary whims.There was no rhyme or reason of

action

> > follows

> > > > consequence that a child could understand aside from dreading

> > punishment and

> > > > wanting to avoid it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went

in

> > to the

> > > > kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like

> sh*t

> > or

> > > > threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I

> didn't

> > > > exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet

> > every

> > > > morning *I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen

and

> > said

> > > > good morning or started to.If the same exact behavior from me

> elicited

> > > > wildly different reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make

> sense

> > of

> > > > that? Since I was too young to think of my own mother: Oh

well,she's

> > > > crazy,don't take anything she says seriously...

> > > > >

> > > > > And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like

with

> > your

> > > > happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when

we

> > are

> > > > trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't

> > mirrored

> > > > back to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents

> had

> > > > terrible eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember

> feeling

> > > > nauseous and sick from eating too much junk.I actually *liked*

> > vegetables

> > > > because when I got to eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't

> feel

> > > > sick.So when we went grocery shopping I tried to " help " nada make

> > better

> > > > food choices by asking her to buy spinach or Cream of Wheat

instead

> of

> > Pop

> > > > Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants that,it's gross.I'm not

> buying

> > that. "

> > > > >

> > > > > *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that

*nobody*

> > wants

> > > > that.The consequence to my action there being: you are

nobody.Which

> is

> > what

> > > > your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be

healthy

> > mean

> > > > nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the

> consequences

> > of my

> > > > actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must

> > simply

> > > > endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to

> access

> > > > because it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later

> memories,from

> > about

> > > > four onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body

> > remembers

> > > > me feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find

> > nada,but I

> > > > have a clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not

> to

> > drink

> > > > orange juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me

heart

>

> > burn is

> > > > easy.But I have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I

> won't

> > have

> > > > to simply endure being tired the next day--I have to *remind*

myself

> > that I

> > > > can in fact *prevent* being too tired *myself*,by my own

> actions.It's

> > the

> > > > infant in me that never learned that and accessing the awareness

> that

> > my

> > > > infant self doesn't know how to prevent tiredness still amounts to

> me

> > having

> > > > to even notice when I'm going into " helplessly enduring " it mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all

day--when

> a

> > > > friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and

> > eating

> > > > well,I absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but

was

> > trying

> > > > to gather my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that

> answered

> > his

> > > > question.To him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't

> gather

> > > > strength from NOTHING. "

> > > > >

> > > > > When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly

what

> I

> > had

> > > > been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather

> > strength

> > > > from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said

the

> > same

> > > > thing to nada or fada,they would have been like:

Yeah,ok,whatever.My

> > actions

> > > > that day (not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying

> > there in

> > > > bed with the flu believing that I could just gather my forces out

of

> > thin

> > > > air and swan off to the grocery store to buy soup--which made no

> > sense.I had

> > > > learned so early to stoically endure consequences I couldn't

prevent

> > that my

> > > > own actions were like a moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've

> had

> > to

> > > > retrain myself to be that caretaker to myself who is in control of

> > keeping

> > > > myself tended to.Nowadays at the first sign of the flu or a cold I

> pay

> > > > attention and go buy myself juice and treats like mangos and

chicken

> > > > vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle with *knowing*

that

> I

> > can

> > > > control and direct my own survival and prevent my own

> " demise " --parts

> > of me

> > > > also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential anxiety

> > because I

> > > > feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's hard

at

> > times

> > > > to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these

> very

> > > > young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated

from

> > our

> > > > immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to

> address

> > our

> > > > adult needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are

> > protected

> > > > from extremity.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > >

> >

October 12, 2010

Another reason for them not to call:

" I've pulled so much crap all these years, my daughter's going to ship me to a

nursing home. "

And I will, too.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi Charlie,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have

> time

> >

> > > to try

> > > > > to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

> > > > > spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and

> > > > > consequences is right on the money.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since

> we

> > > > > couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap

> a

> > > > > " reward " from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only

> > " reward "

> > > we got

> > > > > from managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve

> > > *their*

> > > > > needs,never ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve

> > from

> > > > > punishment that was mainly hollow because there was always the

> > threat

> > > of

> > > > > punishment the next time.We were used,manipulated and

> abandoned--not

> > > > > raised,not parented.And like you said,held captive: captive to a

> > > mentally

> > > > > ill person's arbitrary whims.There was no rhyme or reason of

> action

> > > follows

> > > > > consequence that a child could understand aside from dreading

> > > punishment and

> > > > > wanting to avoid it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went

> in

> > > to the

> > > > > kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like

> > sh*t

> > > or

> > > > > threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I

> > didn't

> > > > > exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet

>

> > > every

> > > > > morning *I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen

> and

> > > said

> > > > > good morning or started to.If the same exact behavior from me

> > elicited

> > > > > wildly different reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make

> > sense

> > > of

> > > > > that? Since I was too young to think of my own mother: Oh

> well,she's

> > > > > crazy,don't take anything she says seriously...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like

> with

> > > your

> > > > > happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when

> we

> > > are

> > > > > trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't

> > > mirrored

> > > > > back to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents

> > had

> > > > > terrible eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember

> > feeling

> > > > > nauseous and sick from eating too much junk.I actually *liked*

> > > vegetables

> > > > > because when I got to eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't

> > feel

> > > > > sick.So when we went grocery shopping I tried to " help " nada make

> > > better

> > > > > food choices by asking her to buy spinach or Cream of Wheat

> instead

> > of

> > > Pop

> > > > > Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants that,it's gross.I'm not

> > buying

> > > that. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that

> *nobody*

> > > wants

> > > > > that.The consequence to my action there being: you are

> nobody.Which

> > is

> > > what

> > > > > your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be

> healthy

> > > mean

> > > > > nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the

> > consequences

> > > of my

> > > > > actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must

> > > simply

> > > > > endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to

> > access

> > > > > because it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later

> > memories,from

> > > about

> > > > > four onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body

> > > remembers

> > > > > me feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find

> > > nada,but I

> > > > > have a clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not

> > to

> > > drink

> > > > > orange juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me

> heart

> >

> > > burn is

> > > > > easy.But I have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I

> > won't

> > > have

> > > > > to simply endure being tired the next day--I have to *remind*

> myself

> > > that I

> > > > > can in fact *prevent* being too tired *myself*,by my own

> > actions.It's

> > > the

> > > > > infant in me that never learned that and accessing the awareness

> > that

> > > my

> > > > > infant self doesn't know how to prevent tiredness still amounts to

> > me

> > > having

> > > > > to even notice when I'm going into " helplessly enduring " it mode.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all

> day--when

> > a

> > > > > friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and

> > > eating

> > > > > well,I absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but

> was

> > > trying

> > > > > to gather my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that

> > answered

> > > his

> > > > > question.To him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't

> > gather

> > > > > strength from NOTHING. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly

> what

> > I

> > > had

> > > > > been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather

> > > strength

> > > > > from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said

> the

> > > same

> > > > > thing to nada or fada,they would have been like:

> Yeah,ok,whatever.My

> > > actions

> > > > > that day (not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying

> > > there in

> > > > > bed with the flu believing that I could just gather my forces out

> of

> > > thin

> > > > > air and swan off to the grocery store to buy soup--which made no

> > > sense.I had

> > > > > learned so early to stoically endure consequences I couldn't

> prevent

> > > that my

> > > > > own actions were like a moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've

> > had

> > > to

> > > > > retrain myself to be that caretaker to myself who is in control of

> > > keeping

> > > > > myself tended to.Nowadays at the first sign of the flu or a cold I

> > pay

> > > > > attention and go buy myself juice and treats like mangos and

> chicken

> > > > > vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle with *knowing*

> that

> > I

> > > can

> > > > > control and direct my own survival and prevent my own

> > " demise " --parts

> > > of me

> > > > > also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential anxiety

>

> > > because I

> > > > > feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's hard

> at

> > > times

> > > > > to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these

>

> > very

> > > > > young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated

> from

> > > our

> > > > > immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to

> > address

> > > our

> > > > > adult needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are

> > > protected

> > > > > from extremity.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > > >

> > >

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