Re: Re: Why enmeshment?

[Guest guest]

I keep getting books on the subject and the one that I am reading " The Mom

Factor " by McCloud. I am not finished but it explains how the nurturing,

containment, support and love that should come from our mothers affect our

ability to relate to others in adult life. For intance, he calls the phantom mom

one that is emotionally distant, affects our later life in that we are afraid to

be vulnerable and keep a distance in our relationships.

 

 

Subject: Re: Why enmeshment?

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 12:26 PM

 

Me personally, its been hard to find that normal, mentally healthy, middle road

in life, in relationships with other people. I think its due to the

black-and-white-thinking flea that I absorbed from my nada. But now that I know

that I tend to do that, I can get a little emotional distance and try to work on

it.

If Jane your co-worker genuinely feels that you called her a liar and that hurt

her feelings, then, I think its OK to apologize to her. Your intention wasn't to

insult her, you just couldn't believe that the third party, the other co-worker,

would deliberately slam a door in Jane's face. But Jane *interpreted* that as

you calling her a liar (probably due to her warped pd cognitive processing.)

Unfortunately with pd people, even if you do apologize she will probably remain

hostile and resentful and perhaps even feel entitled to retaliate against you.

But at least you would have done the right thing and apologized for

inadvertently hurting her feelings.

RE the big question of WHY is it that we keep going back for more abuse, why do

we keep trying over and over to normalize those with pd that are in our lives,

why do we even feel attracted to and befriend and even marry those with the

identical personality disorders our parents have ... good question.

I've heard two theories. One is that during our most impressionable, malleable,

formative years, we become imprinted on our parents' behaviors as " normal. " The

truth is that these behaviors aren't normal at all, they're just our reality and

they become familiar to us. Our parents define for us what loving behaviors look

like and feel like. So when we hit puberty and encounter the very familiar

traits and characteristics that were modeled to us as " normal " , our subconscious

(and newly-awakening hormones) equate these " normal " , familiar traits as

*appropriate and attractive.* So our subconscious is saying something like,

" Wow, he's cute, and he's cold and rejecting just like my mother / helpless and

needy just like my mother / angry and dramatic just like my father! I think I'm

in love! "

The other theory is that we find those with pds (like our parents) attractive or

engaging because we feel compelled to keep trying to make the relationship with

our parents work out, even if its by proxy. We keep working at it trying to make

the outcome positive this time: we're trying to make our parents love us and

approve of us, just using a substitute instead of the real thing.

-Annie

>

> I am more and more amazed at how I, up until now, seemed to attract--or be

drawn to--people that eventually became enmeshed with me, or wanted to be. I

mean emotionally fused to the point that they would become upset if I pulled

away and I would become jealous as well if they were friendly with others.

sick!!!

>

> At the company I used to work at, I was in the same department for 10 years.

There were only 3 of us in the department. I didn’t realize it at the

time, but we were enmeshed. I remember feeling funny, like “there’s

something wrong with this situation.� But I definitely knew I

wasn’t being authentic, I was pretending to like certain things and would

do activities that I had no interest in, all to be part of the gang. When I look

back on it now, I think of what a waste those 10 years were. It saddens me that

I diminished myself because of this unhealthy pattern in myself. And hate to say

it without sounding like a blamer, but I do blame my parents. They were both

very much of the don’t rock the boat/make others happy/what will the

neighbors say variety. And it really affected my personality. When I left that

company, I felt so free. I felt like a new person.

>

> Now, I’ve been in my present company for five years. I’m

definitely much more aware of myself, therapy has helped. But when I started

here, I found myself working alongside someone who I had to see and talk to

every day. I’ll call her Jane. She is a complainer, fearful, anxious.

Reminded me so much of my mother, which was dreadful. Well, Jane and I grew

closer, because of my sick relational pattern (and hers) and because my father

had been diagnosed with lung cancer. She was very nice about it and would check

in to see how he was doing and how I was (now I think it was just her way of

latching onto me), so I readily accepted her friendship.

>

> After 3 years of therapy and taking inventory of myself and my patterns, I

began to scale back my contact with my mother AND with Jane as much as possible.

As I said, she complains always. There is not a conversation with her that does

not include a complaint, a grievance shared, or mean gossip about people she

feels have wronged her. For the most part, I just ignore her and say something

" oh? that's too bad. " I limit my contribution to the point that the conversation

just dies.

>

> So yesterday, she began kvetching about a woman in our dept who she claimed

slammed a door in her face (that is, she walked through a door and didn’t

hold it open for her). Before she even started her story, I said, “oh you

mean Sally?? I LIKE Sally.� That was my way of saying, stop. Don’t

continue this story. But she went on, with great venom, to say what a b***ch

Sally is. I said, “I really can’t imagine Sally would do

that.� Jane freaked out and said, “don’t you think it was

mean of Sally to do that??� I said, “I wasn’t there,

Jane.�

>

> Like my mother, you cannot disagree with Jane. She practically spit at me when

she said, “I am so glad so and so was there with me. SHE knows I’m

not lying.� After that, there was no talking to her. We ended our

conversation with her saying, “I hope YOU don’t get a door slammed

in YOUR face today.� It was so unpleasant, the force she spat her words

out with, it was startling. And then she can’t imagine why no one †"

NO ONE †" will befriend her in our department.

>

> I saw her later in the day and she fake-smiled/immediately scowled at me. She

really is a child.

>

> My question is: WWWHHHHYYY, knowing my patterns and my family history with

this kind of lunacy, do I have the desire to approach Jane and clarify things??

Why is this bugging me so much? I don’t want to give her dirty looks, I

don’t want to pretend I don’t see her. I just want to not have her

behavior matter to me. Sigh. Any insights out there from fellow recovering

enmeshed ones?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Fiona

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, you always amaze me. Your insight is 'right on'. I always felt

when I met someone I was attracted to as a friend or boyfriend, they always,

always, needed help in some way. I felt the need to " fix it " . I was

always attracted to either the ones that needed help, or maybe just a little

love and kindness from someone. Wow! we all need a little love and

kindness.....but it was really an obsession with me. " WHAT CAN I DO TO MAKE

THIS

PERSON HAPPY? " Sound familiar to anyone?

Laurie

In a message dated 10/7/2010 1:26:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

Me personally, its been hard to find that normal, mentally healthy, middle

road in life, in relationships with other people. I think its due to the

black-and-white-thinking flea that I absorbed from my nada. But now that I

know that I tend to do that, I can get a little emotional distance and try to

work on it.

If Jane your co-worker genuinely feels that you called her a liar and that

hurt her feelings, then, I think its OK to apologize to her. Your

intention wasn't to insult her, you just couldn't believe that the third party,

the

other co-worker, would deliberately slam a door in Jane's face. But Jane

*interpreted* that as you calling her a liar (probably due to her warped pd

cognitive processing.)

Unfortunately with pd people, even if you do apologize she will probably

remain hostile and resentful and perhaps even feel entitled to retaliate

against you. But at least you would have done the right thing and apologized

for inadvertently hurting her feelings.

RE the big question of WHY is it that we keep going back for more abuse,

why do we keep trying over and over to normalize those with pd that are in

our lives, why do we even feel attracted to and befriend and even marry

those with the identical personality disorders our parents have ... good

question.

I've heard two theories. One is that during our most impressionable,

malleable, formative years, we become imprinted on our parents' behaviors as

" normal. " The truth is that these behaviors aren't normal at all, they're just

our reality and they become familiar to us. Our parents define for us what

loving behaviors look like and feel like. So when we hit puberty and

encounter the very familiar traits and characteristics that were modeled to us

as " normal " , our subconscious (and newly-awakening hormones) equate these

" normal " , familiar traits as *appropriate and attractive.* So our

subconscious is saying something like, " Wow, he's cute, and he's cold and

rejecting

just like my mother / helpless and needy just like my mother / angry and

dramatic just like my father! I think I'm in love! "

The other theory is that we find those with pds (like our parents)

attractive or engaging because we feel compelled to keep trying to make the

relationship with our parents work out, even if its by proxy. We keep working

at

it trying to make the outcome positive this time: we're trying to make our

parents love us and approve of us, just using a substitute instead of the

real thing.

-Annie

>

> I am more and more amazed at how I, up until now, seemed to attract--or

be drawn to--people that eventually became enmeshed with me, or wanted to

be. I mean emotionally fused to the point that they would become upset if I

pulled away and I would become jealous as well if they were friendly with

others. sick!!!

>

> At the company I used to work at, I was in the same department for 10

years. There were only 3 of us in the department. I didn’t realize it at

the time, but we were enmeshed. I remember feeling funny, like

“there’s

something wrong with this situation.†But I definitely knew I

wasn’t

being authentic, I was pretending to like certain things and would do

activities that I had no interest in, all to be part of the gang. When I look

back on it now, I think of what a waste those 10 years were. It saddens me

that I diminished myself because of this unhealthy pattern in myself. And

hate to say it without sounding like a blamer, but I do blame my parents. They

were both very much of the don’t rock the boat/make others happy/what

will the neighbors say variety. And it really affected my personality. When

I left that company, I felt so free. I felt like a new person.

>

> Now, I’ve been in my present company for five years. I’m

definitely much more aware of myself, therapy has helped. But when I started

here, I

found myself working alongside someone who I had to see and talk to every

day. I’ll call her Jane. She is a complainer, fearful, anxious. Reminded

me so much of my mother, which was dreadful. Well, Jane and I grew closer,

because of my sick relational pattern (and hers) and because my father had

been diagnosed with lung cancer. She was very nice about it and would

check in to see how he was doing and how I was (now I think it was just her way

of latching onto me), so I readily accepted her friendship.

>

> After 3 years of therapy and taking inventory of myself and my patterns,

I began to scale back my contact with my mother AND with Jane as much as

possible. As I said, she complains always. There is not a conversation with

her that does not include a complaint, a grievance shared, or mean gossip

about people she feels have wronged her. For the most part, I just ignore

her and say something " oh? that's too bad. " I limit my contribution to the

point that the conversation just dies.

>

> So yesterday, she began kvetching about a woman in our dept who she

claimed slammed a door in her face (that is, she walked through a door and

didnâ

€™t hold it open for her). Before she even started her story, I said,

“

oh you mean Sally?? I LIKE Sally.†That was my way of saying, stop. Donâ

€™t continue this story. But she went on, with great venom, to say what a

b***ch Sally is. I said, “I really can’t imagine Sally would do

that.â€

 Jane freaked out and said, “don’t you think it was mean of

Sally

to do that??†I said, “I wasn’t there, Jane.â€Â

>

> Like my mother, you cannot disagree with Jane. She practically spit at

me when she said, “I am so glad so and so was there with me. SHE knows

Iâ

€™m not lying.†After that, there was no talking to her. We ended our

conversation with her saying, “I hope YOU don’t get a door slammed

in

YOUR face today.†It was so unpleasant, the force she spat her words out

with, it was startling. And then she can’t imagine why no one †" NO

ONE â

€ " will befriend her in our department.

>

> I saw her later in the day and she fake-smiled/immediately scowled at

me. She really is a child.

>

> My question is: WWWHHHHYYY, knowing my patterns and my family history

with this kind of lunacy, do I have the desire to approach Jane and clarify

things?? Why is this bugging me so much? I don’t want to give her dirty

looks, I don’t want to pretend I don’t see her. I just want to not

have

her behavior matter to me. Sigh. Any insights out there from fellow

recovering enmeshed ones?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Fiona

>

[Guest guest]

Hon, you are entitled to set the tone for your relationship. If you want

more distance, go for it. The prob for me always seems to be the guilt I

feel when I pull away from someone. SCREW GUILT!!!

>

>

> Laurie - YUP! sounds very familiar to me.

> Too familiar.

>

>

>

> > >

> > > I am more and more amazed at how I, up until now, seemed to attract--or

>

> > be drawn to--people that eventually became enmeshed with me, or wanted to

>

> > be. I mean emotionally fused to the point that they would become upset if

> I

> > pulled away and I would become jealous as well if they were friendly with

>

> > others. sick!!!

> > >

> > > At the company I used to work at, I was in the same department for 10

> > years. There were only 3 of us in the department. I didn’t realize

> it at

> > the time, but we were enmeshed. I remember feeling funny, like

>  " there’s

> > something wrong with this situation.†But I definitely knew I

> wasn’t

> > being authentic, I was pretending to like certain things and would do

> > activities that I had no interest in, all to be part of the gang. When I

> look

> > back on it now, I think of what a waste those 10 years were. It saddens

> me

> > that I diminished myself because of this unhealthy pattern in myself. And

>

> > hate to say it without sounding like a blamer, but I do blame my parents.

> They

> > were both very much of the don’t rock the boat/make others

> happy/what

> > will the neighbors say variety. And it really affected my personality.

> When

> > I left that company, I felt so free. I felt like a new person.

> > >

> > > Now, I’ve been in my present company for five years. I’m

> > definitely much more aware of myself, therapy has helped. But when I

> started here, I

> > found myself working alongside someone who I had to see and talk to every

>

> > day. I’ll call her Jane. She is a complainer, fearful, anxious.

> Reminded

> > me so much of my mother, which was dreadful. Well, Jane and I grew

> closer,

> > because of my sick relational pattern (and hers) and because my father

> had

> > been diagnosed with lung cancer. She was very nice about it and would

> > check in to see how he was doing and how I was (now I think it was just

> her way

> > of latching onto me), so I readily accepted her friendship.

> > >

> > > After 3 years of therapy and taking inventory of myself and my

> patterns,

> > I began to scale back my contact with my mother AND with Jane as much as

> > possible. As I said, she complains always. There is not a conversation

> with

> > her that does not include a complaint, a grievance shared, or mean gossip

>

> > about people she feels have wronged her. For the most part, I just ignore

>

> > her and say something " oh? that's too bad. " I limit my contribution to

> the

> > point that the conversation just dies.

> > >

> > > So yesterday, she began kvetching about a woman in our dept who she

> > claimed slammed a door in her face (that is, she walked through a door

> and didnâ

> > €™t hold it open for her). Before she even started her story, I said,

>  "

> > oh you mean Sally?? I LIKE Sally.†That was my way of saying, stop.

> Donâ

>

> > €™t continue this story. But she went on, with great venom, to say

> what a

> > b***ch Sally is. I said,  " I really can’t imagine Sally would

> do that.â€

> >  Jane freaked out and said,  " don’t you think it was mean of

> Sally

> > to do that??†I said,  " I wasn’t there, Jane.â€Â

> > >

> > > Like my mother, you cannot disagree with Jane. She practically spit at

> > me when she said,  " I am so glad so and so was there with me. SHE

> knows Iâ

> > €™m not lying.†After that, there was no talking to her. We

> ended our

> > conversation with her saying,  " I hope YOU don’t get a door

> slammed in

> > YOUR face today.†It was so unpleasant, the force she spat her words

> out

> > with, it was startling. And then she can’t imagine why no one

> †" NO ONE â

> > € " will befriend her in our department.

> > >

> > > I saw her later in the day and she fake-smiled/immediately scowled at

> > me. She really is a child.

> > >

> > > My question is: WWWHHHHYYY, knowing my patterns and my family history

> > with this kind of lunacy, do I have the desire to approach Jane and

> clarify

> > things?? Why is this bugging me so much? I don’t want to give her

> dirty

> > looks, I don’t want to pretend I don’t see her. I just want

> to not have

> > her behavior matter to me. Sigh. Any insights out there from fellow

> > recovering enmeshed ones?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > Fiona

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi

Recently a guy latched on to me and he wanted to see me so hed invite me to do

things even though I didn't show a lot of interest. I was trying to find him

attractive but something was off. He invited me to his house for a special

dinner he was going to cook. I realized he was going to expect something in

return and I wasn't attracted so I told him I didn't want to come over a day

ahead of time. A couple of days later I got the guilt trip of my life. " He

expected more of me. You made me angry. You hurt me " I said sorry twice he said

" well that's a start " etc etc. It was similar to what you're describing I

think. I wanted to keep it chill. He wanted to turn up the heat and then found

himself wounded to the max when I couldn't comply with HIS script. Very

imperious for such a meek little guy.

Please excuse any typos or terseness, this message was sent from a mobile

device.

Re: Why enmeshment?

Fiona,I had a coworker a bit like Jane a couple of years ago.She used my fada's

death as a way to latch on to me,calling me at home when I was on bereavement

leave *from work in front of other coworkers*,giving me flowers when I returned

to work,telling me I could call her if I needed to " talk " --and then getting

angry with me and holding a lllloooonnnnggg grudge when I didn't call her to cry

on her shoulder about fada.The more I tried to keep it casual and light because

I had caught a whiff of dysfunction from her from the beginning,the more cloying

she became.I got that too from her,the " Oh,,I missed you! " when we

hadn't worked on the same day...We both had a black knit dress and one day she

suggested we both wear our knits dresses on a Friday " so we can be twins " .I kid

you not.I was like: god,do I have a big red X on my forehead or something,that I

attract these types? I think now the thing was,I was too easy going because I

was too *used* to putting up with boundary violations from nada.She ended up

turning on me and trying to smear me to our other coworkers when I didn't want

to be her extra special friend.I later learned that she had done this to a

couple of other people and that she was a total narcissist.Her feelings were as

fact as deep as the kitchen sink,it turned out.So please remember you have

nothing to feel guilty about for wanting to avoid Jane.She sounds potentially

toxic.

I like 's suggestion that you let her know somehow that your

reaction to the door slamming incident was nothing personal.You do that with

*everybody*.You would have said the same thing to *anybody*.I suspect that might

take the wind out of her sails and bore her,and besides,like said,what is

she going to say? Especially to anyone else.It makes you look like the

reasonable one.

> >

> > - you nailed it.

> > I decided to miss my cue and Jane got furious.

> > And you described it so perfectly: that's exactly our relationship --she

complains, I tut-tut and validate her (oh, Jane, I'm sure it's not all that bad

blah blah).

> >

> > I would like to cease the relationship but we work together; there's the

challenge.

> >

> > As Annie suggested, I would apologize to her for the misunderstanding, but

she'll just gain more steam that way. I don't know how I'll proceed. It's

assumed between us that we go down for coffee every morning. When I've tried to

pull away from it, by making up excuses, she gets weird... " I missed you; are

you getting coffee next week?? " It's creepy.

> >

> > I think Sally slammed the door in her face on purpose. Jane's not well-liked

here at all. I mean, it's gotten ugly at times.

> >

> > thank you all for your insights; it's true, some part of me felt like

relating to her was " normal " and " comfortable. " Now I know better! I can spot

them a mile away lately and STEER AWAY. Now, what to do with Jane????

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow guys- the dude who gives you unwanted attention - isn't a good fit for

you - turns you off. . . keeps coming back after you tell him you aren't

interested. . .

well guess what I did when he wouldn't give up???? I MARRIED HIM!!!!!

7 years later I filed for divorce and BOY WAS HE PISSED.

Good job being smarter than I was!!!

On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:17 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Sounds like your " radar " for detecting personality disorder is working

> pretty well! I too am suspicious of those who are too friendly too fast, who

> give presents or do unusual favors for me too early in the relationship,

> etc. That feels to me like the person is trying to make me feel indebted to

> him or her in a way that obligates me to respond in kind. Too friendly too

> fast = red flag, for me. I do much better with slower-building

> relationships, or I guess I should say, I feel safer with developing a

> friendship slowly.

>

> Good for you for not feeling like you had to go ahead and attend his dinner

> and be " dessert " when you weren't ready for that. Good for you for listening

> to your intuition!

>

> I hope you don't allow him to pressure you and guilt you into dating him,

> that's not a good reason to date someone, in fact, its a horrible reason to

> date someone. From what you describe, he doesn't take " no " for an answer

> easily and resorts to using FOG (fear-obligation-guilt) to pressure others

> into complying with his wishes.

>

> That's how a guy I dated briefly in college acted. Wouldn't take " no " for

> an answer, and when I said I didn't want to go out with him anymore he began

> stalking me. Fortunately my parents wanted to move anyway, so I relocated

> with them and that's the only thing that made that guy give up.

>

> Listen to your gut!

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi

> > Recently a guy latched on to me and he wanted to see me so hed invite me

> to do things even though I didn't show a lot of interest. I was trying to

> find him attractive but something was off. He invited me to his house for a

> special dinner he was going to cook. I realized he was going to expect

> something in return and I wasn't attracted so I told him I didn't want to

> come over a day ahead of time. A couple of days later I got the guilt trip

> of my life. " He expected more of me. You made me angry. You hurt me " I said

> sorry twice he said " well that's a start " etc etc. It was similar to what

> you're describing I think. I wanted to keep it chill. He wanted to turn up

> the heat and then found himself wounded to the max when I couldn't comply

> with HIS script. Very imperious for such a meek little guy.

> > Please excuse any typos or terseness, this message was sent from a mobile

> device.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie and girlscout

Thanks for considering my situation. Early on I learned he was surrounded by big

N except one friend who had no self esteem. He was soooo nice. Basically he was

tolerable until week two I started hearing the same stories again. Ns seem to

have very little new to say but he was so generous! When the rage came out of

nowhere and the apology turned into a power play " well that's a start " he said.

True color time! He was also plagued with envy. I could see it irritating him

some times. Some Ns are meek little things so sweet and generous. That's the

type of N my father is.

Please excuse any typos or terseness, this message was sent from a mobile

device.

Re: Re: Why enmeshment?

Wow guys- the dude who gives you unwanted attention - isn't a good fit for

you - turns you off. . . keeps coming back after you tell him you aren't

interested. . .

well guess what I did when he wouldn't give up???? I MARRIED HIM!!!!!

7 years later I filed for divorce and BOY WAS HE PISSED.

Good job being smarter than I was!!!

On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:17 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Sounds like your " radar " for detecting personality disorder is working

> pretty well! I too am suspicious of those who are too friendly too fast, who

> give presents or do unusual favors for me too early in the relationship,

> etc. That feels to me like the person is trying to make me feel indebted to

> him or her in a way that obligates me to respond in kind. Too friendly too

> fast = red flag, for me. I do much better with slower-building

> relationships, or I guess I should say, I feel safer with developing a

> friendship slowly.

>

> Good for you for not feeling like you had to go ahead and attend his dinner

> and be " dessert " when you weren't ready for that. Good for you for listening

> to your intuition!

>

> I hope you don't allow him to pressure you and guilt you into dating him,

> that's not a good reason to date someone, in fact, its a horrible reason to

> date someone. From what you describe, he doesn't take " no " for an answer

> easily and resorts to using FOG (fear-obligation-guilt) to pressure others

> into complying with his wishes.

>

> That's how a guy I dated briefly in college acted. Wouldn't take " no " for

> an answer, and when I said I didn't want to go out with him anymore he began

> stalking me. Fortunately my parents wanted to move anyway, so I relocated

> with them and that's the only thing that made that guy give up.

>

> Listen to your gut!

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi

> > Recently a guy latched on to me and he wanted to see me so hed invite me

> to do things even though I didn't show a lot of interest. I was trying to

> find him attractive but something was off. He invited me to his house for a

> special dinner he was going to cook. I realized he was going to expect

> something in return and I wasn't attracted so I told him I didn't want to

> come over a day ahead of time. A couple of days later I got the guilt trip

> of my life. " He expected more of me. You made me angry. You hurt me " I said

> sorry twice he said " well that's a start " etc etc. It was similar to what

> you're describing I think. I wanted to keep it chill. He wanted to turn up

> the heat and then found himself wounded to the max when I couldn't comply

> with HIS script. Very imperious for such a meek little guy.

> > Please excuse any typos or terseness, this message was sent from a mobile

> device.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm touched, thank you so much, buddy!!!!

I'll be your lady friend or gal any day!

>

>

> To all my lady friends on here,

> No, wait that doesnt sound right.

> You are not ladies, but you are friends.

> No, wait that doesnt work.

>

> Lets try,

>

> Hey Gals!

> ( lol, in a silly mood)

>

> The guy who moves way too fast, expects way too much, gets highly

> offended when you do not meet expectations or standards that he set

> without your approval or knowledge, should set of bells and red flags

> all over the place.

>

> For any woman, but in particular for KO s , since we were programmed to

> subsume our own self to that of another, it is a precursor to a

> controlling or abusive man. The guy who ends up cutting you off from

> your friends and family, draining your bank account, making you feel as

> small and unworthy as nada ever did, and perhaps, finally beating you,

> will not start out that way.

>

> He will start out with a charm offensive.

>

> Too much to write it all here, but I would urge you to read some and get

> to know what the abusive man is like, so warning bells go off. You, as

> a KO woman, are, I would guess, many times more likely than other women

> to end up in such a relationship.

>

> With my Big Brother hat on ,

>

> Doug

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi

> > > Recently a guy latched on to me and he wanted to see me so hed

> invite me to do things even though I didn't show a lot of interest. I

> was trying to find him attractive but something was off. He invited me

> to his house for a special dinner he was going to cook. I realized he

> was going to expect something in return and I wasn't attracted so I told

> him I didn't want to come over a day ahead of time. A couple of days

> later I got the guilt trip of my life. " He expected more of me. You made

> me angry. You hurt me " I said sorry twice he said " well that's a start "

> etc etc. It was similar to what you're describing I think. I wanted to

> keep it chill. He wanted to turn up the heat and then found himself

> wounded to the max when I couldn't comply with HIS script. Very

> imperious for such a meek little guy.

> > > Please excuse any typos or terseness, this message was sent from a

> mobile device.

> >

>

>

>