Re: another inappropriate response (cognitive disonance?)

[Guest guest]

My mother was exactly the same - I remember Mum would go into a horrible rage

(and once locked me outside) for not eating all my dessert, or getting a bruise,

or a cold, but other major things that normal mothers would probably get upset

at didnt cause her to blink an eyelid (like the time I broke an antique crystal

sugar bowl, I was stunned when she didnt care).

It was very confusing!

>

> Here's an odd trait my nada would exhibit. She would usually get more angry

at me for minor infractions than she would for the really bad things I did! If

I made a mess, was too noisy, dressed myself incorrectly (shirt on backwards,

couldn't tie shoes properly, etc.) or fell and cut my knee, there was hell to

pay. Nada would trigger into a terrifying rage and scream at me, and hit me.

>

> But when I was TRULY horrible to my poor little Sister (I almost drowned her,

when I was 6 and she was 2. And there were other incidents. I should have been

taken to a child psychiatrist, frankly,) it was like, no big deal!!!

>

> Very confusing, to be punished and traumatized over almost nothing and then

when I was being actively malicious, to be just mildly reprimanded??? Its

insane. I was raised by an insane mother and an uninvolved, passive father.

>

> My poor little Sister is lucky to be alive, truly.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Me,too.We had some neighbors who moved in two houses down from us who had a girl

my age.They had moved to the suburbs from a rough inner city neighborhood and

this girl was apparently accustomed to having to establish social position by

picking and winning fights.She came into my yard one day when we were seven to

try to taunt me into a fight.

I warned her about three times to drop it.I told her there was no need for

us to fight and that if she didn't quit it I was going to teach her a lesson.She

took that as me being a coward who was afraid to fight her and pushed

me,going: " I can take you,I can take you.What? Are you AFRAID? "

So I knocked her down and broke her arm.She was screaming in pain and I

coldly continued to twist her arm up behind her back.She was begging me to stop

and I didn't care.I let go of her after a moment because she was making so much

noise screaming I was sure nada could hear it and she'd come tearing out of the

house into the yard wanting to hurt *me*.Because everything was always my fault

and because nada always treated me like I was a horrible person.I figured she'd

just lay into me.And there I was actually doing something nasty.

The neighbor girl ran screaming from our yard as nada appeared at the

back door.I went to her shaking with fear at the prospect of whatever punishment

she was going to mete out to me and said to her, " I think I just really hurt J "

since there seemed to be no point in trying to deny it.

She had little reaction to this information.Just an indifferent

shrug.She didn't even ask me what had happened.I was very surprised and confused

because I knew that I had done something wrong.

J had to go to the hospital to have her arm put in a cast.Nada never

attempted to contact her family--when J's older brother came to out house to

tell her that the fight had resulted in a trip to the hospital,nada displayed

the same bizarre indifference.It was like she would not,or could not,react.

I felt so cast adrift by her attitude,like I didn't know myself what

to do and I felt very much left alone to deal with the fall out from the fight.

I think that she had this inappropriate non response,which was most

certainly due to cognitive dissonance,because she was both seeing me as an

extension of herself while at the same time denying her own propensity towards

physical violence.That doesn't make much logical sense but that was how she was:

she had injured me in the past to the point where I should have been taken to

the hospital (arm fractures,dislocated shoulder) but didn't because she might

have been found out.Then she acted like nothing had happened.She really had

badly injured me but in her mind she wasn't the kind of " bad person " who does

things like that,so nada seeing herself as " good " sort of erased the violence

from the plane of reality.I had learned from *her* to snap like that to point of

breaking someone's arm but it was like if she even acknowledged what I had done

that might prompt a consideration of her own behavior so she just went into this

state of blank indifference/denial.

It's hard to explain but it was like in that instance she needed

to see me as an extension of her " good " self in order to not have to face the

truth of her own bad behavior,so she kind of merged my violence with hers into a

blanket denial that it even mattered.

Which left me feeling like a creep--into my adulthood whenever I

thought of that day in my yard I felt scared of myself,like I must have been

some psycho kid.When what I really was,was a child who had no healthy guidance

whatsoever and had only learned extreme reactions from nada.Even though I had

tried to not even have that fight with J,when she insisted all I knew how to do

was snap.Because that is what nada did with me: snapped.That was my model for

what you do when someone really pisses you off.You hurt them.

The neighbors were understandably disturbed that I had gone that far

and nada left me alone to deal with them wondering what was " wrong " with me.And

left me alone to worry what was wrong with me.Because I had been trained to

believe that nada was always right and that there was something wrong with

*me*,never with her.And to bear other peoples' judgment on my own and always to

spare her from judgment.While she acted like nothing untoward had happened.

On the other hand,that same year she got angry with me for touching a

sugar bowl that was part of a formal dinner set,so out of spite because I felt

insulted that she didn't trust me not to brak her precious sugar bowl,I took it

outside and walked around the block with it.Wanting to show her up--but I

tripped on a bump in the sidewalk and dropped the damn thing and cracked it.I

was horrified and tried to hide it in the buffet in the dining room but she

caught me in the act and when she saw the crack in her sugar bowl she went

ballistic.Now,*that* was the end of the world,a truly awful thing I had done.She

was punching me on the back as I cowered and screaming that I was a

rotten,selfish idiot. " What is WRONG with you! " she screamed.

Breaking another kid's arm means nothing but cracking her sugar bowl is

a serious crime.Cognitive dissonance!

> >

> > Here's an odd trait my nada would exhibit. She would usually get more angry

at me for minor infractions than she would for the really bad things I did! If

I made a mess, was too noisy, dressed myself incorrectly (shirt on backwards,

couldn't tie shoes properly, etc.) or fell and cut my knee, there was hell to

pay. Nada would trigger into a terrifying rage and scream at me, and hit me.

> >

> > But when I was TRULY horrible to my poor little Sister (I almost drowned

her, when I was 6 and she was 2. And there were other incidents. I should have

been taken to a child psychiatrist, frankly,) it was like, no big deal!!!

> >

> > Very confusing, to be punished and traumatized over almost nothing and then

when I was being actively malicious, to be just mildly reprimanded??? Its

insane. I was raised by an insane mother and an uninvolved, passive father.

> >

> > My poor little Sister is lucky to be alive, truly.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

These inappropriate responses and behaviors on the part of our personality

disordered parents *should* have been big, red waving warning flags to other

adults that something was terribly, terribly wrong and that this individual

wasn't capable of raising a child.

Not that I'm blaming you, as an abused 7 year old child you were completely

blameless. Your feeling guilty about that incident decades later is proof that

your normal human empathy is intact.

You didn't intend to break her arm, just to protect yourself and make her leave

you alone.

I buy your theory of how and why the cognitive dissonance process occurred in

your mother's brain RE not reacting appropriately to the arm-breaking incident,

and yet over-reacting to the sugarbowl crack. That's probably similar if not

identical to my nada's badly warped cognitive process as well.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Here's an odd trait my nada would exhibit. She would usually get more

angry at me for minor infractions than she would for the really bad things I

did! If I made a mess, was too noisy, dressed myself incorrectly (shirt on

backwards, couldn't tie shoes properly, etc.) or fell and cut my knee, there was

hell to pay. Nada would trigger into a terrifying rage and scream at me, and

hit me.

> > >

> > > But when I was TRULY horrible to my poor little Sister (I almost drowned

her, when I was 6 and she was 2. And there were other incidents. I should have

been taken to a child psychiatrist, frankly,) it was like, no big deal!!!

> > >

> > > Very confusing, to be punished and traumatized over almost nothing and

then when I was being actively malicious, to be just mildly reprimanded??? Its

insane. I was raised by an insane mother and an uninvolved, passive father.

> > >

> > > My poor little Sister is lucky to be alive, truly.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Annie and ,

The other day I heard an npr parenting show and the guest was the proponent of

'smart discipline'. (At least I think that's what it was called.) He explained

his child-rearing theory of how there need to be predictable and proportionate

consequences for childrens' actions. They need to know the rules; if they break

them, there is a negative consequence, if they follow them, there is a reward.

They need to learn that temper tantrums and violence will not pressure the

parent into making exceptions to the rules.

This jolted me into a gut realization of just how much I was *not* raised. I

was conditioned by force. I was not 'taught' anything except one truth: if I

don't please nada, there will be suffering. (And my father being a passive but

very violent narcissist, I was also taught if I don't please him, I might die.)

Now I am learning just how MUCH I have to learn to parent myself. Some very

young parts of me do not understand actions and consequences. If I don't sleep

enough, I'll be tired tomorrow. If I don't eat right, I will feel bad. I can

see how I have so much physical anxiety still in my home life. I am still

trying to learn that I have the control now to keep myself physically safe. *I*

am the one with the job now, I have control of if there's food on the table, if

there's an apartment to live in, when I sleep, etc. Parts of me still don't

understand that.

All of that complete unpredicatability--done intentionally to exploit the

child--it's not parenting. It's captivity by force. We have to reparent

ourselves now if we are going to get rid of the base level existential anxiety

that tells us we don't have control of our basic physical safety.

I'm also thinking about developing a system of rewards. I remember the kids

next door had a chart on their fridge--if they made a 'happy plate' (ie, ate

their vegetables) every night for a week, they got to have ice cream. I

remember being very young and trying to make a chart for my own nada, I wanted

to make a 'happy plate'. But nada of course wanted to project her feelings of

being fat onto me, so she refused to reward me for *eating* anything, vegetables

or no, and anyway she had no wish to actually parent me in such a manner. The

chart was left dangling, unused, on my refridgerator. Looking back it just rips

me up, poor little 8 year old me trying to 'help' my mother raise me, by making

a chart. And her being so MEAN and not participating.

So this is a good theme to thing about!

--Charlie

> > >

> > > Here's an odd trait my nada would exhibit. She would usually get more

angry at me for minor infractions than she would for the really bad things I

did! If I made a mess, was too noisy, dressed myself incorrectly (shirt on

backwards, couldn't tie shoes properly, etc.) or fell and cut my knee, there was

hell to pay. Nada would trigger into a terrifying rage and scream at me, and

hit me.

> > >

> > > But when I was TRULY horrible to my poor little Sister (I almost drowned

her, when I was 6 and she was 2. And there were other incidents. I should have

been taken to a child psychiatrist, frankly,) it was like, no big deal!!!

> > >

> > > Very confusing, to be punished and traumatized over almost nothing and

then when I was being actively malicious, to be just mildly reprimanded??? Its

insane. I was raised by an insane mother and an uninvolved, passive father.

> > >

> > > My poor little Sister is lucky to be alive, truly.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

In addiction recovery we teach addicts to recognize their distorted

thinking patterns. The term used is " Stinkin Thinkin. "

Cute, and accurate. The way we think is caught up in how we live and

act. So BP s learn to think in a way that matches thier life and

choices. Since they stink, so does their thinking.

Addicts must choose to change the way they act and live, even if they

don t agree on the thinking model. They " Fake it till they make it " .

In short, we know your thinking is screwed up. So do you. Trust wiser,

sounder heads. Do as we say, even if you don t agree with it, until

your thinking patterns heal and catch up with you.

They can t do it alone. Neither can BP s. No one can force them to

change or get sober. Nor can they with BP s.

Doug

> > > >

> > > > Here's an odd trait my nada would exhibit. She would usually

get more angry at me for minor infractions than she would for the really

bad things I did! If I made a mess, was too noisy, dressed myself

incorrectly (shirt on backwards, couldn't tie shoes properly, etc.) or

fell and cut my knee, there was hell to pay. Nada would trigger into a

terrifying rage and scream at me, and hit me.

> > > >

> > > > But when I was TRULY horrible to my poor little Sister (I almost

drowned her, when I was 6 and she was 2. And there were other incidents.

I should have been taken to a child psychiatrist, frankly,) it was like,

no big deal!!!

> > > >

> > > > Very confusing, to be punished and traumatized over almost

nothing and then when I was being actively malicious, to be just mildly

reprimanded??? Its insane. I was raised by an insane mother and an

uninvolved, passive father.

> > > >

> > > > My poor little Sister is lucky to be alive, truly.

> > > >

> > > > -Annie

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

(((((((Charlotte))))))))

I wish I could fill out the " happy plate " chart for 8-year-old Charlotte and

give her ice cream for a reward; Charlotte was such a good little girl, who

through no fault of her own got the fuzzy end of the stick instead of the

lollipop for a mother. Your story made me tear up.

Its just so tragic that truly incapable, damaged, incompetent, emotionally

dysregulated, malignantly self-absorbed, occasionally psychotic mentally-ill

people are just handed their babies to raise and there's no oversight, no

supervision, no monitoring because the damage they do is emotional and

developmental and covert in nature, not blatant, physical, and obvious to a

blind and deaf passerby.

Its just truly sad.

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > Here's an odd trait my nada would exhibit. She would usually get more

angry at me for minor infractions than she would for the really bad things I

did! If I made a mess, was too noisy, dressed myself incorrectly (shirt on

backwards, couldn't tie shoes properly, etc.) or fell and cut my knee, there was

hell to pay. Nada would trigger into a terrifying rage and scream at me, and

hit me.

> > > >

> > > > But when I was TRULY horrible to my poor little Sister (I almost drowned

her, when I was 6 and she was 2. And there were other incidents. I should have

been taken to a child psychiatrist, frankly,) it was like, no big deal!!!

> > > >

> > > > Very confusing, to be punished and traumatized over almost nothing and

then when I was being actively malicious, to be just mildly reprimanded??? Its

insane. I was raised by an insane mother and an uninvolved, passive father.

> > > >

> > > > My poor little Sister is lucky to be alive, truly.

> > > >

> > > > -Annie

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Ok,I just wrote a long post in reply to yours,Charlie,and Yahoo redirected me to

sign in and obliterated my reply in the process.Argh!!!! I'll try again

later.Thanks for sharing your thoughts,I found your post very interesting

because I have similar issues with self care and very young ego states.

(who is seriously annoyed with Yahoo at this exact moment)

> > > >

> > > > Here's an odd trait my nada would exhibit. She would usually get more

angry at me for minor infractions than she would for the really bad things I

did! If I made a mess, was too noisy, dressed myself incorrectly (shirt on

backwards, couldn't tie shoes properly, etc.) or fell and cut my knee, there was

hell to pay. Nada would trigger into a terrifying rage and scream at me, and

hit me.

> > > >

> > > > But when I was TRULY horrible to my poor little Sister (I almost drowned

her, when I was 6 and she was 2. And there were other incidents. I should have

been taken to a child psychiatrist, frankly,) it was like, no big deal!!!

> > > >

> > > > Very confusing, to be punished and traumatized over almost nothing and

then when I was being actively malicious, to be just mildly reprimanded??? Its

insane. I was raised by an insane mother and an uninvolved, passive father.

> > > >

> > > > My poor little Sister is lucky to be alive, truly.

> > > >

> > > > -Annie

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Charlie,

I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have time to

try to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and consequences

is right on the money.

Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since we

couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap a " reward "

from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only " reward " we got from

managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve *their* needs,never

ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve from punishment that was

mainly hollow because there was always the threat of punishment the next time.We

were used,manipulated and abandoned--not raised,not parented.And like you

said,held captive: captive to a mentally ill person's arbitrary whims.There was

no rhyme or reason of action follows consequence that a child could understand

aside from dreading punishment and wanting to avoid it.

Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went in to

the kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like sh*t or

threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I didn't

exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet every morning

*I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen and said good morning

or started to.If the same exact behavior from me elicited wildly different

reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make sense of that? Since I was too

young to think of my own mother: Oh well,she's crazy,don't take anything she

says seriously...

And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like with your

happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when we are trying

to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't mirrored back to us

by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents had terrible eating

habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember feeling nauseous and sick from

eating too much junk.I actually *liked* vegetables because when I got to eat

them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't feel sick.So when we went grocery

shopping I tried to " help " nada make better food choices by asking her to buy

spinach or Cream of Wheat instead of Pop Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants

that,it's gross.I'm not buying that. "

*I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that *nobody* wants

that.The consequence to my action there being: you are nobody.Which is what your

nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be healthy mean nothing,are

nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the consequences of

my actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must simply

endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to access because

it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later memories,from about four

onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body remembers me

feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find nada,but I have a

clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not to drink orange

juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me heart burn is easy.But I

have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I won't have to simply endure

being tired the next day--I have to *remind* myself that I can in fact *prevent*

being too tired *myself*,by my own actions.It's the infant in me that never

learned that and accessing the awareness that my infant self doesn't know how to

prevent tiredness still amounts to me having to even notice when I'm going into

" helplessly enduring " it mode.

A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all day--when a

friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and eating well,I

absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but was trying to gather

my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that answered his question.To

him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't gather strength from

NOTHING. "

When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly what I

had been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather strength

from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said the same thing

to nada or fada,they would have been like: Yeah,ok,whatever.My actions that day

(not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying there in bed with the

flu believing that I could just gather my forces out of thin air and swan off to

the grocery store to buy soup--which made no sense.I had learned so early to

stoically endure consequences I couldn't prevent that my own actions were like a

moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've had to retrain myself to be that

caretaker to myself who is in control of keeping myself tended to.Nowadays at

the first sign of the flu or a cold I pay attention and go buy myself juice and

treats like mangos and chicken vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle

with *knowing* that I can control and direct my own survival and prevent my own

" demise " --parts of me also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential

anxiety because I feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's

hard at times to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these

very young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated from our

immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to address our adult

needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are protected from

extremity.

>

>

> Hi Annie and ,

>

> The other day I heard an npr parenting show and the guest was the proponent of

'smart discipline'. (At least I think that's what it was called.) He explained

his child-rearing theory of how there need to be predictable and proportionate

consequences for childrens' actions. They need to know the rules; if they break

them, there is a negative consequence, if they follow them, there is a reward.

They need to learn that temper tantrums and violence will not pressure the

parent into making exceptions to the rules.

>

> This jolted me into a gut realization of just how much I was *not* raised. I

was conditioned by force. I was not 'taught' anything except one truth: if I

don't please nada, there will be suffering. (And my father being a passive but

very violent narcissist, I was also taught if I don't please him, I might die.)

>

> Now I am learning just how MUCH I have to learn to parent myself. Some very

young parts of me do not understand actions and consequences. If I don't sleep

enough, I'll be tired tomorrow. If I don't eat right, I will feel bad. I can

see how I have so much physical anxiety still in my home life. I am still

trying to learn that I have the control now to keep myself physically safe. *I*

am the one with the job now, I have control of if there's food on the table, if

there's an apartment to live in, when I sleep, etc. Parts of me still don't

understand that.

>

> All of that complete unpredicatability--done intentionally to exploit the

child--it's not parenting. It's captivity by force. We have to reparent

ourselves now if we are going to get rid of the base level existential anxiety

that tells us we don't have control of our basic physical safety.

>

> I'm also thinking about developing a system of rewards. I remember the kids

next door had a chart on their fridge--if they made a 'happy plate' (ie, ate

their vegetables) every night for a week, they got to have ice cream. I

remember being very young and trying to make a chart for my own nada, I wanted

to make a 'happy plate'. But nada of course wanted to project her feelings of

being fat onto me, so she refused to reward me for *eating* anything, vegetables

or no, and anyway she had no wish to actually parent me in such a manner. The

chart was left dangling, unused, on my refridgerator. Looking back it just rips

me up, poor little 8 year old me trying to 'help' my mother raise me, by making

a chart. And her being so MEAN and not participating.

>

> So this is a good theme to thing about!

>

> --Charlie

[Guest guest]

These recent posts of yours, and Charlie, and others here make it so

sharply clear to me what an impoverished, barren, bleak emotional landscape we

grew up in as the children of personality-disordered parents. Almost, almost,

like feral children orphaned by war, we picked carefully through the garbage

middens for scraps of emotional nourishment, and tip-toed through the land-mines

hidden around everywhere hoping to turn up a scrap or two.

Our personality-disordered mothers were capable of providing only the most

rudimentary, minimal care-giving; some weren't even capable of that (like my

friend J's mother who ignored J to the point that she developed rickets from

malnourishment at about age 4 or so.)

Like your mother said, , to them we were " nobody. "

Even negative attention was some kind of attention, as opposed to the horror of

nonexistence and being ignored to death.

-Annie

>

> Hi Charlie,

>

> I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have time

to try to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and consequences

is right on the money.

>

> Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since we

couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap a " reward "

from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only " reward " we got from

managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve *their* needs,never

ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve from punishment that was

mainly hollow because there was always the threat of punishment the next time.We

were used,manipulated and abandoned--not raised,not parented.And like you

said,held captive: captive to a mentally ill person's arbitrary whims.There was

no rhyme or reason of action follows consequence that a child could understand

aside from dreading punishment and wanting to avoid it.

>

> Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went in

to the kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like sh*t or

threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I didn't

exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet every morning

*I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen and said good morning

or started to.If the same exact behavior from me elicited wildly different

reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make sense of that? Since I was too

young to think of my own mother: Oh well,she's crazy,don't take anything she

says seriously...

>

> And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like with

your happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when we are

trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't mirrored back

to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents had terrible

eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember feeling nauseous and sick

from eating too much junk.I actually *liked* vegetables because when I got to

eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't feel sick.So when we went grocery

shopping I tried to " help " nada make better food choices by asking her to buy

spinach or Cream of Wheat instead of Pop Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants

that,it's gross.I'm not buying that. "

>

> *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that *nobody*

wants that.The consequence to my action there being: you are nobody.Which is

what your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be healthy mean

nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

>

> I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the consequences

of my actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must simply

endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to access because

it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later memories,from about four

onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body remembers me

feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find nada,but I have a

clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not to drink orange

juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me heart burn is easy.But I

have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I won't have to simply endure

being tired the next day--I have to *remind* myself that I can in fact *prevent*

being too tired *myself*,by my own actions.It's the infant in me that never

learned that and accessing the awareness that my infant self doesn't know how to

prevent tiredness still amounts to me having to even notice when I'm going into

" helplessly enduring " it mode.

>

> A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all day--when a

friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and eating well,I

absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but was trying to gather

my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that answered his question.To

him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't gather strength from

NOTHING. "

>

> When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly what I

had been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather strength

from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said the same thing

to nada or fada,they would have been like: Yeah,ok,whatever.My actions that day

(not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying there in bed with the

flu believing that I could just gather my forces out of thin air and swan off to

the grocery store to buy soup--which made no sense.I had learned so early to

stoically endure consequences I couldn't prevent that my own actions were like a

moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've had to retrain myself to be that

caretaker to myself who is in control of keeping myself tended to.Nowadays at

the first sign of the flu or a cold I pay attention and go buy myself juice and

treats like mangos and chicken vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle

with *knowing* that I can control and direct my own survival and prevent my own

" demise " --parts of me also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential

anxiety because I feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's

hard at times to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these

very young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated from our

immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to address our adult

needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are protected from

extremity.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think you're right, and nadas will tend to fall into either extreme end of the

spectrum: either freakishly controlling or as negligent and uncaring as a

monitor lizard RE her child's health and nutritional needs. (Monitor lizards

just lay their eggs and then wander off, leaving the eggs and hatchlings

vulnerable to predators; sometimes they even wander back to their own nest and

eat their own eggs and hatchlings.)

Mine fell into the freakishly controlling camp. I was actually threatened,

screamed at and physically forced to eat foods that I found repulsive; by the

time was around 10 or 11 I was underweight and dreaded mealtimes at home,

although I ate well at the school cafeteria. The stress of knowing that at some

point during the meal I'd probably be forced to chew and swallow something that

would trigger my gag reflex made me even more anxious, stressed and nervous than

I was already, and I would lose my appetite altogether.

At one point when nada was screaming at me and I was crying and trying to

swallow some " congealed salad " thing she'd made, my throat just closed up, I

felt like I was choking and I vomited right there at the table.

Once I'd done that and upset dad and put him Sister off their food too, that put

an end to being forced to eat foods I didn't want to. If there was one thing

nada hated more than my being willful and rejecting something she'd made for me

to eat, it was mess. She had/has an obsessive-compulsive horror of messiness.

I am grateful that nada didn't try to make me eat my vomit as punishment; I've

read of other even more deeply disturbed and sadistic pd mothers who take that

even more extreme and horrific step.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Hi Charlie,

> > >

> > > I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have time to try

> > to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

> > spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and

> > consequences is right on the money.

> > >

> > > Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since we

> > couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap a

> > " reward " from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only " reward " we got

> > from managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve *their*

> > needs,never ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve from

> > punishment that was mainly hollow because there was always the threat of

> > punishment the next time.We were used,manipulated and abandoned--not

> > raised,not parented.And like you said,held captive: captive to a mentally

> > ill person's arbitrary whims.There was no rhyme or reason of action follows

> > consequence that a child could understand aside from dreading punishment and

> > wanting to avoid it.

> > >

> > > Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went in to the

> > kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like sh*t or

> > threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I didn't

> > exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet every

> > morning *I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen and said

> > good morning or started to.If the same exact behavior from me elicited

> > wildly different reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make sense of

> > that? Since I was too young to think of my own mother: Oh well,she's

> > crazy,don't take anything she says seriously...

> > >

> > > And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like with your

> > happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when we are

> > trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't mirrored

> > back to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents had

> > terrible eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember feeling

> > nauseous and sick from eating too much junk.I actually *liked* vegetables

> > because when I got to eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't feel

> > sick.So when we went grocery shopping I tried to " help " nada make better

> > food choices by asking her to buy spinach or Cream of Wheat instead of Pop

> > Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants that,it's gross.I'm not buying that. "

> > >

> > > *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that *nobody* wants

> > that.The consequence to my action there being: you are nobody.Which is what

> > your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be healthy mean

> > nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

> > >

> > > I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the consequences of my

> > actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must simply

> > endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to access

> > because it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later memories,from about

> > four onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body remembers

> > me feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find nada,but I

> > have a clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not to drink

> > orange juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me heart burn is

> > easy.But I have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I won't have

> > to simply endure being tired the next day--I have to *remind* myself that I

> > can in fact *prevent* being too tired *myself*,by my own actions.It's the

> > infant in me that never learned that and accessing the awareness that my

> > infant self doesn't know how to prevent tiredness still amounts to me having

> > to even notice when I'm going into " helplessly enduring " it mode.

> > >

> > > A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all day--when a

> > friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and eating

> > well,I absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but was trying

> > to gather my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that answered his

> > question.To him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't gather

> > strength from NOTHING. "

> > >

> > > When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly what I had

> > been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather strength

> > from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said the same

> > thing to nada or fada,they would have been like: Yeah,ok,whatever.My actions

> > that day (not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying there in

> > bed with the flu believing that I could just gather my forces out of thin

> > air and swan off to the grocery store to buy soup--which made no sense.I had

> > learned so early to stoically endure consequences I couldn't prevent that my

> > own actions were like a moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've had to

> > retrain myself to be that caretaker to myself who is in control of keeping

> > myself tended to.Nowadays at the first sign of the flu or a cold I pay

> > attention and go buy myself juice and treats like mangos and chicken

> > vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle with *knowing* that I can

> > control and direct my own survival and prevent my own " demise " --parts of me

> > also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential anxiety because I

> > feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's hard at times

> > to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these very

> > young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated from our

> > immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to address our

> > adult needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are protected

> > from extremity.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think the extremism is part of the borderline " black and white " thinking or

lack of thinking, i.e. cognitive dissonance. Their brains aren't wired right;

there is no perception of such a thing as a healthy middle road or gray areas

for the bpd; everything is perceived as either all good or all bad.

Hyper-clean and hyper-organized, or a complete slob.

Over-controlling, domineering & enmeshed with kids, or negligent.

Over-reactive to minor issues, under-reactive to real issues.

Overly-chipper and perky, or miserable/negative/raging.

Overly concerned with personal appearance, weight, clothes, health, etc, or

totally unconcerned to the point of lack of personal hygiene, wearing filthy,

torn clothes, destructive eating/drinking/addictions.

Extreme spending or extreme saving/penuriousness.

Perfectionism, or total chaos

etc.

It seems that " extremism " is often in evidence. Just plain contentment, healthy

enjoyment, mellowness, satisfaction, enjoying the simple things in life, etc.,

the middle road doesn't seem to happen much for nadas, or at least not

consistently.

-Annie

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Charlie,

> > > > >

> > > > > I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have time to

> > try

> > > > to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

> > > > spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and

> > > > consequences is right on the money.

> > > > >

> > > > > Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since we

> > > > couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap a

> > > > " reward " from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only " reward "

> > we got

> > > > from managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve

> > *their*

> > > > needs,never ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve from

> > > > punishment that was mainly hollow because there was always the threat

> > of

> > > > punishment the next time.We were used,manipulated and abandoned--not

> > > > raised,not parented.And like you said,held captive: captive to a

> > mentally

> > > > ill person's arbitrary whims.There was no rhyme or reason of action

> > follows

> > > > consequence that a child could understand aside from dreading

> > punishment and

> > > > wanting to avoid it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went in to

> > the

> > > > kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like sh*t

> > or

> > > > threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I didn't

> > > > exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet

> > every

> > > > morning *I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen and

> > said

> > > > good morning or started to.If the same exact behavior from me elicited

> > > > wildly different reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make sense

> > of

> > > > that? Since I was too young to think of my own mother: Oh well,she's

> > > > crazy,don't take anything she says seriously...

> > > > >

> > > > > And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like with

> > your

> > > > happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when we

> > are

> > > > trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't

> > mirrored

> > > > back to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents had

> > > > terrible eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember feeling

> > > > nauseous and sick from eating too much junk.I actually *liked*

> > vegetables

> > > > because when I got to eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't feel

> > > > sick.So when we went grocery shopping I tried to " help " nada make

> > better

> > > > food choices by asking her to buy spinach or Cream of Wheat instead of

> > Pop

> > > > Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants that,it's gross.I'm not buying

> > that. "

> > > > >

> > > > > *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that *nobody*

> > wants

> > > > that.The consequence to my action there being: you are nobody.Which is

> > what

> > > > your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be healthy

> > mean

> > > > nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the consequences

> > of my

> > > > actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must

> > simply

> > > > endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to access

> > > > because it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later memories,from

> > about

> > > > four onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body

> > remembers

> > > > me feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find

> > nada,but I

> > > > have a clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not to

> > drink

> > > > orange juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me heart

> > burn is

> > > > easy.But I have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I won't

> > have

> > > > to simply endure being tired the next day--I have to *remind* myself

> > that I

> > > > can in fact *prevent* being too tired *myself*,by my own actions.It's

> > the

> > > > infant in me that never learned that and accessing the awareness that

> > my

> > > > infant self doesn't know how to prevent tiredness still amounts to me

> > having

> > > > to even notice when I'm going into " helplessly enduring " it mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all day--when a

> > > > friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and

> > eating

> > > > well,I absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but was

> > trying

> > > > to gather my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that answered

> > his

> > > > question.To him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't gather

> > > > strength from NOTHING. "

> > > > >

> > > > > When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly what I

> > had

> > > > been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather

> > strength

> > > > from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said the

> > same

> > > > thing to nada or fada,they would have been like: Yeah,ok,whatever.My

> > actions

> > > > that day (not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying there

> > in

> > > > bed with the flu believing that I could just gather my forces out of

> > thin

> > > > air and swan off to the grocery store to buy soup--which made no

> > sense.I had

> > > > learned so early to stoically endure consequences I couldn't prevent

> > that my

> > > > own actions were like a moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've had

> > to

> > > > retrain myself to be that caretaker to myself who is in control of

> > keeping

> > > > myself tended to.Nowadays at the first sign of the flu or a cold I pay

> > > > attention and go buy myself juice and treats like mangos and chicken

> > > > vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle with *knowing* that I

> > can

> > > > control and direct my own survival and prevent my own " demise " --parts

> > of me

> > > > also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential anxiety

> > because I

> > > > feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's hard at

> > times

> > > > to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these very

> > > > young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated from

> > our

> > > > immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to address

> > our

> > > > adult needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are

> > protected

> > > > from extremity.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Wow, thanks for these great posts everyone--and thanks for re-creating

yours, becasue I was very interested to see it. {{{{{{Annnnnieee}}}}}}} on the

force-feedings. That is one of the worst things I've read here--it just really

kills me, and I'm so sorry you had to go through it. It is monstrous.

I'm not sure, but I think that the ignoring, the messiness and the hoarding may

be more traits that the 'low functioning' nadas exhibit, whereas the more high

functioning ones are controlling? I know that my nada was also obsessed with

keeping the house from being 'messy'. When I happened to spill kool-aid or

other drinks, it was the END of the world, she villified me as if I had done a

crime against humanity. She obsessed I was 'tracking mud' into the house every

time I came inside. She lit up the vacuum cleaner EVERY time I tried to take a

nap, out of 'punishment' for my being so dirty (or maybe for attention). To

this day, vacuums are a big trigger for my anxiety response. She also showed

favoritism by keeping my split good sister's clothes and room clean, but not

cleaning mine. Sigh.

--Charlie

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi Charlie,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I had to get going to work yesterday morning so I didn't have time

to

> > > try

> > > > > to recreate my post that got lost--and actually I can't recreate a

> > > > > spontaneous stream of thought--but what you said about actions and

> > > > > consequences is right on the money.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Our actions in our FOOs led to arbitrary consequences and since we

> > > > > couldn't predict what they would be adjusting our behavior to reap a

> > > > > " reward " from it was an exercize in futility mostly.The only " reward "

> > > we got

> > > > > from managing to please nada/fada was being used by them to serve

> > > *their*

> > > > > needs,never ours.Or the " reward " amounted to a temporary reprieve from

> > > > > punishment that was mainly hollow because there was always the threat

> > > of

> > > > > punishment the next time.We were used,manipulated and abandoned--not

> > > > > raised,not parented.And like you said,held captive: captive to a

> > > mentally

> > > > > ill person's arbitrary whims.There was no rhyme or reason of action

> > > follows

> > > > > consequence that a child could understand aside from dreading

> > > punishment and

> > > > > wanting to avoid it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Like,my nada was awful in the morning.Some mornings when I went in

to

> > > the

> > > > > kitchen she verbally attacked me: telling me my hair looked like sh*t

> > > or

> > > > > threatening to kill me,other days completely ignoring me as if I

didn't

> > > > > exist,other days cheerfully pouring me a glass of orange juice.Yet

> > > every

> > > > > morning *I* had done the same exact thing,went in to the kitchen and

> > > said

> > > > > good morning or started to.If the same exact behavior from me elicited

> > > > > wildly different reactions from nada,how was I supposed to make sense

> > > of

> > > > > that? Since I was too young to think of my own mother: Oh well,she's

> > > > > crazy,don't take anything she says seriously...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And then when we tragically try to " help " nada raise us like with

> > > your

> > > > > happy plate chart idea,we get *nothing* for our efforts.Even when we

> > > are

> > > > > trying to do something healthy,the rightness of our actions isn't

> > > mirrored

> > > > > back to us by the parent but more consigned to the void.My parents had

> > > > > terrible eating habits: they were junk food junkies.I remember feeling

> > > > > nauseous and sick from eating too much junk.I actually *liked*

> > > vegetables

> > > > > because when I got to eat them (only at my grandmother's) I didn't

feel

> > > > > sick.So when we went grocery shopping I tried to " help " nada make

> > > better

> > > > > food choices by asking her to buy spinach or Cream of Wheat instead of

> > > Pop

> > > > > Tarts--her response was, " Nobody wants that,it's gross.I'm not buying

> > > that. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *I* had just asked her to buy it and she said to me that *nobody*

> > > wants

> > > > > that.The consequence to my action there being: you are nobody.Which is

> > > what

> > > > > your nada did with your happy plate chart.Our efforts to be healthy

> > > mean

> > > > > nothing,are nothing.What we get instead of reward is erasure.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have a hard time at times connecting *myself* to the consequences

> > > of my

> > > > > actions because I'm constantly unconsciously assuming that I must

> > > simply

> > > > > endure,which I think is a very early ego state.Which is hard to access

> > > > > because it doesn't have the narrative frame of my later memories,from

> > > about

> > > > > four onwards.Like orange juice gives me heartburn because my body

> > > remembers

> > > > > me feeling distressed in the morning never knowing how I'd find

> > > nada,but I

> > > > > have a clear memory to connect that to.So consciously choosing not to

> > > drink

> > > > > orange juice because I can validate for myself why it gives me heart

> > > burn is

> > > > > easy.But I have to remind myself,still,to get enough sleep so I won't

> > > have

> > > > > to simply endure being tired the next day--I have to *remind* myself

> > > that I

> > > > > can in fact *prevent* being too tired *myself*,by my own actions.It's

> > > the

> > > > > infant in me that never learned that and accessing the awareness that

> > > my

> > > > > infant self doesn't know how to prevent tiredness still amounts to me

> > > having

> > > > > to even notice when I'm going into " helplessly enduring " it mode.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A couple of years ago I had the flu and hadn't eaten all day--when a

> > > > > friend called and asked me if I was drinking plenty of fluids and

> > > eating

> > > > > well,I absurdly told him that I'd had nothing to eat all day but was

> > > trying

> > > > > to gather my strength to go out and get some food.To me,that answered

> > > his

> > > > > question.To him,it was ridiculous; he said, " ,you can't gather

> > > > > strength from NOTHING. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When he said that,it was a revelation.Because that is exactly what I

> > > had

> > > > > been conditioned by nada/fada to do in general: to try to gather

> > > strength

> > > > > from NOTHING.I didn't even realize I was doing it.If I had said the

> > > same

> > > > > thing to nada or fada,they would have been like: Yeah,ok,whatever.My

> > > actions

> > > > > that day (not eating) had led to the absurd consequence of laying

there

> > > in

> > > > > bed with the flu believing that I could just gather my forces out of

> > > thin

> > > > > air and swan off to the grocery store to buy soup--which made no

> > > sense.I had

> > > > > learned so early to stoically endure consequences I couldn't prevent

> > > that my

> > > > > own actions were like a moot point.And so,like you mentioned,I've had

> > > to

> > > > > retrain myself to be that caretaker to myself who is in control of

> > > keeping

> > > > > myself tended to.Nowadays at the first sign of the flu or a cold I pay

> > > > > attention and go buy myself juice and treats like mangos and chicken

> > > > > vindaloo...But on other levels I still struggle with *knowing* that I

> > > can

> > > > > control and direct my own survival and prevent my own " demise " --parts

> > > of me

> > > > > also don't understand that.I often feel a base existential anxiety

> > > because I

> > > > > feel like I can't mirror nothing.But we're NOT nothing! It's hard at

> > > times

> > > > > to access our something and accessing the *somethingness* of these

very

> > > > > young ego states can be a challenge because they're dissociated from

> > > our

> > > > > immediate consciousness.It seems to me that one solution is to address

> > > our

> > > > > adult needs in present time so that our inner younger selves are

> > > protected

> > > > > from extremity.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

my mother is highly dissociative as well. It is really coming out in the current

situation with my SIL and her kids, making a bad situation worse. I never knew

how she was going to react.

>

> Here's an odd trait my nada would exhibit. She would usually get more angry

at me for minor infractions than she would for the really bad things I did! If

I made a mess, was too noisy, dressed myself incorrectly (shirt on backwards,

couldn't tie shoes properly, etc.) or fell and cut my knee, there was hell to

pay. Nada would trigger into a terrifying rage and scream at me, and hit me.

>

> But when I was TRULY horrible to my poor little Sister (I almost drowned her,

when I was 6 and she was 2. And there were other incidents. I should have been

taken to a child psychiatrist, frankly,) it was like, no big deal!!!

>

> Very confusing, to be punished and traumatized over almost nothing and then

when I was being actively malicious, to be just mildly reprimanded??? Its

insane. I was raised by an insane mother and an uninvolved, passive father.

>

> My poor little Sister is lucky to be alive, truly.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

My parents were both into playing a sport--nada was an avid tennis player who

played regularly with a few different partners and fada was a soccer coach.But

the cognitive dissonance was that neither of them ate decent food--nada's tennis

matches were fueled by diet Tab and potato chips; fada stuffed his face at

Mc's or KFC and then went off to play soccer.After every game he bought

himself a huge " Slurpee " --if you don't have those out your way basically they're

iced sugar water and artificial dye.Fada eventually acquired adult onset

diabetes even though he was still a soccer coach and still getting plenty of

exercize.

We didn't have set mealtimes.A typical dinner was a bag of rolls on the

table and some packages of lunch meat and everyone helped themselves.A fancy

meal was when nada heated up tv dinners.It's shocking to me now that my brother

and I almost never ate wholesome food as children.

Their own parents weren't like this.They had both eaten real dinners

every night with a fresh protein and fresh vegetables.It's like,to them,being an

independant adult meant: I get to eat all the candy I want now and I don't have

to have yucky vegetables anymore,I'm all grown up!

Our kitchen cupboards were full of cookies,chips,candy bars.We always

had a variety of ice cream in the fridge.They didn't care if my brother and I

helped ourselves to this junk at our whim: we were never told no,you can't have

another cookie,you've already had too many.Nada went through phases of not

feeding me at all (long story,but she always fed my brother) and to this day the

memory of having nothing to eat but sugary junk makes me want to throw up.I

remember having such a terrible headache from going days without an actual meal

at a time when nada wasn't feeding me and deciding to eat a raw lemon in the

hope that eating something approximating real food would cure my

headache--because I could *not* eat another cookie or candy bar,even trying to

was SO nauseating.Being so hungry I felt faint but the only " food " I could

scavenge for myself was junk that made me feel sick.That was a weekend when the

only nutritious things I found to eat were that lemon and some celery.

My friends loved to come over to my house for snacktime.They thought

it was awesome that they could have all the candy bars they

wanted. " Wow,,you're so lucky " they said...while I was thinking: You're

going to go home to a hot meal of real food--now,you are *really* lucky...

The upside to all this is that junk and candy still make me feel sick

and balanced hot meals still feel like a real treat so I'm a pretty healthy

eater

>

> Beautiful post - wow!!!

>

>

> What health lessons did you guys learn? My Nada was TERRIBLE with anything

> related to physical health. She ate tootsie rolls out of the bottom of her

> purse constantly, swilled coke (later diet coke for her 300 lb figure) and

> consumed entire bags of sour cream and onion chips in a sitting. She also

> hid and hoarded food in her underwear drawer (my God, the crumbs!)

>

> My health as a child was not good. My grandmother would feed me real meals,

> and my dad would. . . but not nada.

>

> Just wondered, my guess is that there will be 2 schools of thought - the

> extremly controlled BPDs who wouldn't let a potato chip cross their

> threshhold and would tell you you were fat for even seeing it and the other

> - the BPD with absolutly no interest in health or knowledge or curiosity and

> horrible habits.

>

> Interesting that I went on to major in public health in school, isn't it

> I guess I saw a knowledge gap.

[Guest guest]

I'm guessing that you lived in a pretty home in a pretty neighborhood, but the

appearance was as false as a film set. You had what looked like the Ideal

American Mother... but the reality was she was completely psychopathic,

malicious, and focused on you as her target. No one would believe that such a

charming, pretty, and outwardly normal-appearing woman could hate her own little

daughter and repeatedly try to kill her.

The fact that you survived that kind of childhood at all is a pure miracle.

Your situation is so similar (to me) to that of " Sybil " who also had the

outwardly normal-appearing Apple Pie parents, but the reality behind closed

doors was a ghastly living nightmare of repeated tortures, injuries, terror, and

near-death incidents for a tiny, helpless, little child.

Your own mother went about trying to arrange injury, illness and even death for

you in ways that would appear accidental, or even your own fault. If you

starved to death, then, why, she could tearfully claim that she tried to get you

to eat but you refused. If you were overcome and drowned by the psychopathic

neighbor child (that she repeatedly put in your path), well then... oops,

accidents happen! If the gang of older boys who repeatedly violated you decided

that they wanted a bigger thrill by killing you... oops! If you as a

preschooler were snatched from the public playground where you were (repeatedly)

left unsupervised (except by another slightly older child), and never seen

again, well then... oops! again.

Its the pattern of neglect and abuse that is the telling factor. Its not just

one incident, its a series of incidents and situations arranged by your mother

to place you in danger of injury or death.

Plus, its her deliberately laying the groundwork so that you would never be

believed by anyone you might go to for help. All that adds up to purely

psychopathic behavior, in my opinion: completely without even a rudimentary

conscience, absolutely no empathy, absolutely no remorse, PLUS the cunningly

self-protective groundwork laid at the same time. ( " My poor little girl is

insane, don't believe anything she says about me! " )

And your father was just so amazingly oblivious, just so narcissisticly,

freaking oblivious and unconcerned. He might as well have been just a picture

on the wall.

I don't know if I believe in an afterlife or not, but if there is one I hope

there is a special, oh, such a VERY special place in Hell for Sybil's mom and

the other psychopathic pd people who mistreat their kids, and their enablers.

-Annie

> >

> > Beautiful post - wow!!!

> >

> >

> > What health lessons did you guys learn? My Nada was TERRIBLE with anything

> > related to physical health. She ate tootsie rolls out of the bottom of her

> > purse constantly, swilled coke (later diet coke for her 300 lb figure) and

> > consumed entire bags of sour cream and onion chips in a sitting. She also

> > hid and hoarded food in her underwear drawer (my God, the crumbs!)

> >

> > My health as a child was not good. My grandmother would feed me real meals,

> > and my dad would. . . but not nada.

> >

> > Just wondered, my guess is that there will be 2 schools of thought - the

> > extremly controlled BPDs who wouldn't let a potato chip cross their

> > threshhold and would tell you you were fat for even seeing it and the other

> > - the BPD with absolutly no interest in health or knowledge or curiosity and

> > horrible habits.

> >

> > Interesting that I went on to major in public health in school, isn't it

> > I guess I saw a knowledge gap.

>

[Guest guest]

Girlscout,that is definitely weird that your nada locked herself in the bathroom

when the inlaws came over for a meal!

The thing with nada not feeding me is complicated.Part of it is grudge

holding: she'd recall for some reason some time when I had " hated " the food she

gave me and then decide as she relived the memory that I needed to be punished

for it,sometimes years later.Like when I was in nursery school I had refused to

eat a fried egg sandwich she gave me because it had eggshell in it,so that was

her reason for " not bothering " to cook anything for me " because you never eat

it " .Really because *she* didn't feel like bothering.We've talked on here before

about nadas " weaponizing " food and mine most definitely did that with me.

Or in fifth grade I finally worked up the courage to ask her to please

toast the bread for my lunch sandwiches so they wouldn't get soggy and she had a

fit about me " hating " her food and stopped giving me any lunch at all.

Sometimes she was on a diet and just expected me to diet right along

with her.I mean,before the age of ten.So if nada was only drinking diet Tab and

eating only melba toast,that is what I was supposed to have too.

Other times it was some weird power and control thing where she wouldn't

call me to dinner and if I wandered into the kitchen and they were all eating

something she'd say some really nasty cutting thing to me knowing it would make

me retreat and that could go on for days.

Fada did this kind of thing to me too: certain food items were " his "

and if I ate them,I'd get slapped.He kicked me into the floor one day when I was

about ten because he thought I'd eaten the last of the cream cheese in the

fridge.

For four years (first to fourth grade) nada sent me to school every

day with a thermos of buttered noodles for lunch,that was it.

We weren't poor.All of the anger and abuse over food wasn't because we

were on a tight budget--and even then,healthy parents would make sure what food

they had went to feed the kids first.

I learned to mostly " switch off " my need to eat,except when it got to

the point of me having terrible headaches and feeling like I was going to

faint.Nada made sure to give me a Flintstone's vitamin every morning,so I guess

I had enough vitamins in my system to not get some disease.I scavenged alot:

fada planted strawberries every summer so I ate those in the morning.I ate

mulberries outside.They had been given a big bag of unshelled nuts one year for

Xmas so I used the nutcracker we had to eat those.I snuck slices of fadas's

processed cheese from the fridge.Or spoonfuls of his peanut butter.And there was

always milk to drink.

By the time I was in the seventh grade I had learned to get by on very

little.We only lived two blocks from the high school so I requested permission

to go home for lunch so I could watch tv and be all alone,blessedly alone,in the

peaceful quiet house.Nada never provided provisions for lunch so day after day I

had buttered minute rice and milk.

None of my teachers in grammar school seemed to notice that I was very

skinny.

It's crazy.In fifth grade there was an incident where nada tricked me

about some hand me downs a friend had given us and I was so pissed off,I told

the teacher what had happened.She seemed to get that what nada had done was

strange and I really thought that finally an adult was going to help me.This was

when nada wasn't giving me any lunch at all.Then suddenly she started packing me

lunches with things I had been asking for for years,like Granny Apples and

cheddar cheese.Along with little notes:

" Today is the first day of the rest of your life "

" Please eat your lunch, "

" Have a happy day! "

" Thinking of you,how is your day? "

The teacher asked me in this sort of accusatory tone if I was eating my

lunch and if I'd read nada's notes.I had in fact been throwing the notes right

into the trash because I knew they were bullshit,nada's " doting mother act " that

she had pulled countless times.I was,however,certainly eating my lunch.It was a

f*ing feast.I didn't understand at all why the teacher was asking me if I was

eating my lunch.But I told her that I wasn't keeping nada's little notes,trying

to make her see that something was wrong since she had seemed to be on the verge

of helping me after the hand me downs incident then had seemed to have let it

drop.I told her pointblank that I wasn't paying much attention to the notes

because nada was,I said to her, " just pretending to care,she doesn't really mean

what she says in those notes and it hurts my feelings to-- "

She interrupted me with: " How can you say that about your mother??

She's so worried about you.She told me she had to stop giving you lunch because

you refused to eat what she packed for you and she had to resort to giving you

nothing so you'd be hungry enough to eat your lunch and even now she's worried

you're so picky you won't eat what she's packing for you.She's so worried about

you and she's giving you those notes to try to cheer you up. "

And then,even more accusatory: " Are you throwing away your lunch,too? "

I was so horrified.She wasn't getting it.She was blaming *me*.How

worried had nada been for all the time she was only giving me buttered noodles

for lunch??? How worried was she at home when she never even called me to

dinner? How worried was she when she told me that they (her,fada and my brother)

were all " sick of " looking at me being so miserable at dinner and until I could

be happy and smile that I wasn't welcome at mealtimes? How worried had she been

when fada kicked me into the kitchen floor for eating his cream cheese and she

stood there and said, " If she wants to eat the last of the cream cheese,she can

buy it herself " ?

Nada was only giving me those notes and those lunches because

whatever the teacher had said to her about the hand me downs incident had

reminded her that she needed to cover her ass.But I couldn't get the teacher to

understand and she concluded that " conversation " that day with: " I'm going to

tell the lunch ladies to make sure you're not throwing away your lunch. "

Insanity.

>

> - can I ask about her not feeding you? Its okay if you don't want

> to talk about it. You were split black and your bro was golden, right?

>

> My nada just checked out for meals - disappeared totally. My dad and I would

> do it ourselves, and all the shopping. She never ate meals with us. When

> extended family (always my dad's parents, never her mother) came over for a

> meal, she would wait to get ready (bathe, hair, makeup) until they arrived,

> and then lock herself in the bathroom for hours while we waited. After a

> while (I mean like 15 years of this) my dad stopped waiting for her. She

> didn't seem to care. I think she still knew the attention was on her.

>

> In elementary school, she made my lunches though. As you can imagine, the

> other kids thought they were great - chocolate " candy bar " style granola

> bars and fruit roll ups and sugary treats and chips. I never ate any of it,

> just brought it home with me again after school. She would then send me to

> school again with the same lunch the next day. After all, twinkies don't go

> bad! And its interesting that to this day I do not eat lunch. i never have.

> I wasn't taught to eat a healthy meal at lunch. . . sometimes I'll eat a

> piece of fruit, or more likely a frothy, milky coffee drink. But I never eat

> lunch - unless its for a business meeting. I never even went in the lunch

> room one single time during jr high or high school.

>

> Weird.

[Guest guest]

Girlscout,I understand your reaction to your fifth grade teacher.And it was

*normal*--of course you didn't want to talk about something you very reasonably

needed a break from having to think about! And besides,why in the heck would a

fifth grade girl approach her male teacher to talk about her mother losing a

baby--one--and two,it's like your teacher just uncritically assumed that you

should share your mother's distress or take it on as a burden instead of

wondering after she came into school to tell him her sob story what *she* was

doing to help *you* understand/come to terms with what had happened.It sounds

like the answer to that was: nothing.Just inflicting her drama on you,and as you

said,constantly.And then to top it all off he assumed it was somehow incumbent

upon a kid to request assistance about a home matter and shamed you for not

doing so.He did everything wrong,in my opinion--and there you were actually

having a healthy,normal reaction to being so put upon by your nada over the

baby's death and all he did really was heap more dysfunction onto you instead of

supporting your right to have a boundary about it.*Attacking* you for not

" telling " him was a total violation of your boundaries,gawd...

My nada enlisted every single one of my grade schools teachers like that

in to taking up her side of things and expecting me to go along with it,even

when that would be to *my* severe detriment,much like your example with your

fifth grade teacher.

This is why I believe strongly that taking and passing some kind of

course about dysfunctional/personality disordered parents *must* be a

requirement for any aspiring school teacher/administrator to get their degree.It

is absolutely inevitable that at some point in their careers,they will have a

student with such a parent/s.Handling the situation wrong,like your teacher did

and mine did,carries a serious risk of harm to the student that could possibly

negatively affect them for the rest of their lives.Because there will be times

when even if the teacher recognizes abuse and reports it that the student will

not be removed from the home.There will be times when the dysfunction isn't at a

level reportable by law but is nonetheless destructive to that student's

psyche.In those kinds of cases,the teacher needs to have been properly trained

how to respond in a way that does not add to the student's suffering,at the

minimum.Better yet,they need to be trained to respond in ways that reinforce the

student's basic,inherent worthiness.I believe that *teachers* require this kind

of additional training because they are the ones who spend the most time with

students in the classroom.It isn't sufficient,in my view,for them to be trained

only to know when a student's issue needs to be referred to a school

psychologist or nurse or guidance counselor (and all of those should also be

required to take and pass a course in " the personality disordered parent " in

order to get their degree/license if they intend to practice in a school

setting)--the teacher also needs training in how to handle such a student's

needs for positive regard/moral support in the classroom itself.In my

imagination of such a course,there would be a sociological element to it as well

that touches upon the fact that abuse/dysfunction occurs across *all* economic

strata--with exercizes,questions,essays and tests about how the dysfunction of

middle class parents is often passed over--or worse,catered to-- and how it is

often unconsciously assumed that children from poorer backgrounds simply learn

how to " endure " the privations of any dysfunction in their home environment,as

if they are somehow " to that manner born " .

My fifth grade teacher had some major issues herself.Not the least of

which was being a complete moral coward,so I seriously wonder if she could have

been an advocate for me even with training.My first and second grade teacher,on

the other hand,probably woud have benefited greatly from training to empower her

to respond properly to a student in distress (me) and I have to wonder how

different the outcome would have been for me if she had known what to do for

me.Instead of what she did do: invalidate me and abandon me to my " fate " ,out of

*sheer* ignorance.

>

> Oh jeesus,

> Wow! I'd like to kick your nada down onto the floor and your teacher right

> with her.

>

> Yeah, I think my teachers talked to nada about me a time or two. They were

> worried because I had no friends. So nada arranged one single play date. It

> made me feel like crap - being singled out to play with a little girl who

> felt sorry for me. No one ever looked at nada or her behavior.After a while

> she stopped meeting with my teachers entirely and my dad started handling

> them exclusively. That actually worked much better, and when they saw a

> problem (like I was too scared to hand in my assignments even though I had

> done them), he would come and talk to me about it and we would work out a

> plan and take care of it. That was much better than being made to feel

> mentally ill and pathetic.

>

> And then nada went to my 5th grade teacher with the sob story of how my

> brother had died (the baby at birth). The teacher " attacked me " asking me

> why I hadn't talked to him. Dude, first of all I don't feel close to you and

> second of all I hear about it CONSTANTLY at home. My mother boobs about it

> still, 26 years later, like it happened 5 min ago. I needed a break from it.

>

>

> I know, trippy to hide in the bathroom from your in-laws when you are in

> your 40s, 50s, 60s. . . dude, grow up.

[Guest guest]

Yeah,Girlscout,your teacher did not get it in any way shape or form.That's

awful,that you had all the bloody details in your mind--and even more reason to

want to think about something else!!!!! I honestly think it's reprehensible that

your adult male teacher expected you as a little girl to just toss those

shameful bloody details over your shoulder and away from your consciousness and

just bounce up to him like Tigger wanting to share.He had no appreciation of

your reality OR your real needs.Especially at that age when " personal " issues

are beginning to mean something real and as pre-adolescent girls we *need* to

have boundaries about " personal " stuff.

Oh--you'd mentioned before that you majored in Public Health.Why not add

to it with further study? I mean,really,why not! You could take your enthusiasm

and public communication skills and really build on them--I can see you

educating the public,even being the one giving those needed training

classes.Just a thought.I'd like to do that in my state too in some capacity at a

later point when I'm more sorted re my traumas.There are so many lights that

need to be shined in to so many dark corners...

>

> Oh, thank you hon - I never realized how wrong he was - and it was half way

> through the school year too, so he must not have known me at all. Why would

> someone you're not even close to - and an adult man for that matter - feel

> good approaching a little girl about something as personal as childbirth and

> death? And believe me, my mother graced me with all the bloody details - so

> when I thought about it there was little left to the imagination. I guess

> there are men who are loving enough to do it, but he wasn't. Thank you, I

> feel like I just had a therapy session. A good one.

>

> I agree, teacher training would be wonderful! I would love to be the

> trainer/educator. In my state however, we don't even have school nurses in

> every school. And I've never seen or heard of an actual school psychologist.

> Maybe the have them at the district level? We are definitlely one down when

> it comes to mental health. We also have the highest perscription drug abuse

> rates in the nation - and tons of porn/sexual addiction, despite a

> conservative religious culture that pervades nearly every aspect of life.

> Wow, we've got problems. Still, the weather is beautiful and the scenery

> can't be beat ha ha - I guess I'd rather be mentally well than live in a

> beautiful place. It'd be nice to have both.

>

> Thank you, love.