Re:how to forgive these clueless friends?

[Guest guest]

You realize that since they did not experience what we have, that they aren't

being insensitive, they are really not capable of giving you sensitivity about

it because unlike us, they don't get it. It is like expecting an active

alcoholic to understand that he is hurting other people with his drinking in the

midst of tying one on. If they ever figure it out, you MIGHT get some

compassion from them but I wouldn't count on it.

My one friend who took care of her feeble, ailing NORMAL elderly mother AND

father tells me I am being heartless not moving down with nada and taking care

of her 24-7. It bothered me at first but then I realized that really it isn't

her fault she doesn't get it. It isn't in the realm of understanding to realize

that my nada is NOT normal and NOT all that loving (unless it suits her at the

time) and then just as suddenly can be the uncaring bitch from hell two minute

later. Nothing I would do would suit - she wouldn't appreciate me - she'd

insult me - verbally abuse me and worst of all to me try her best to maintain

control which is something I cannot EVER tolerate again.

So forgive them their insensitivity and cluelessness. Find what good you can in

them and enjoy your friendships with them. We all have our faults and this is

theirs.

[Guest guest]

Well put, Marilyn.

In a way, it seems to me that we adult kids of mentally ill parents are in the

same boat as returning shell-shocked war veterans.

Regular people who have not been in combat situations find it difficult if not

impossible to comprehend what the returning or retired soldier with ptsd has

been through.

In our relatively comfortable, safe, war-free lives, we don't experience the

horrors of war: best friend gets hit by a grenade and blows into bloody

fragments next to you, survivor guilt after losing many friends in combat,

" friendly " native turns out to be a spy sent to destroy your whole platoon,

having to kill other human beings close up or die yourself, etc. Its trauma.

Its trauma that human beings aren't meant to experience but its happening on a

daily basis and and it inflicts severe psychological injury.

That is the closest thing I can think of to the experience of a child growing up

with mentally ill parents in charge, and most people just can't comprehend the

depth of the damage it does.

All I can think of to say is " Thank God I don't understand the horrific reality

of war, and thank God my friends don't understand the horrific reality of being

raised by mentally ill parents. "

-Annie

>

> You realize that since they did not experience what we have, that they aren't

being insensitive, they are really not capable of giving you sensitivity about

it because unlike us, they don't get it. It is like expecting an active

alcoholic to understand that he is hurting other people with his drinking in the

midst of tying one on. If they ever figure it out, you MIGHT get some

compassion from them but I wouldn't count on it.

>

> My one friend who took care of her feeble, ailing NORMAL elderly mother AND

father tells me I am being heartless not moving down with nada and taking care

of her 24-7. It bothered me at first but then I realized that really it isn't

her fault she doesn't get it. It isn't in the realm of understanding to realize

that my nada is NOT normal and NOT all that loving (unless it suits her at the

time) and then just as suddenly can be the uncaring bitch from hell two minute

later. Nothing I would do would suit - she wouldn't appreciate me - she'd

insult me - verbally abuse me and worst of all to me try her best to maintain

control which is something I cannot EVER tolerate again.

>

> So forgive them their insensitivity and cluelessness. Find what good you can

in them and enjoy your friendships with them. We all have our faults and this

is theirs.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Marilyn and Annie, it's helpful to see others who have worked past this

issue so that maybe one day I will. I have to admit though even though my mind

understands what you guys have said - about forgiving them they can't understand

- my heart does not.

Take the example of a shell-shocked veteran. If I had a friend who was a war

vet with PTSD even though I have never been to war, I believe I would show him

more understanding than people I've told about my nada have shown me. If he

startled when cars backfired, I'd get why. If he felt fear when he heard a

plane overhead, I'd know why. If he had trouble trusting others because he

feared they were spies infiltrating his unit, I'd know why. I'd know that

these emotions were beyond his control (without a lot of treatment) and very

powerful and real for him. I wouldn't tell him to " get over it " or that he's

" just overreacting " and needs to forgive those in his past who hurt him.

It doesn't take a lot of *imagination* to relate to and understand most

difficulties. True it'll never be the same as first hand knowledge, but it's

enough to at least respect another person's experience. I don't get why these

" friends " do not have the imagination to do so while at the same time feeling

entitled to the benefits of my imagination in their behalf.

>

> Well put, Marilyn.

>

> In a way, it seems to me that we adult kids of mentally ill parents are in the

same boat as returning shell-shocked war veterans.

>

> Regular people who have not been in combat situations find it difficult if not

impossible to comprehend what the returning or retired soldier with ptsd has

been through.

>

> In our relatively comfortable, safe, war-free lives, we don't experience the

horrors of war: best friend gets hit by a grenade and blows into bloody

fragments next to you, survivor guilt after losing many friends in combat,

" friendly " native turns out to be a spy sent to destroy your whole platoon,

having to kill other human beings close up or die yourself, etc. Its trauma.

Its trauma that human beings aren't meant to experience but its happening on a

daily basis and and it inflicts severe psychological injury.

>

> That is the closest thing I can think of to the experience of a child growing

up with mentally ill parents in charge, and most people just can't comprehend

the depth of the damage it does.

>

> All I can think of to say is " Thank God I don't understand the horrific

reality of war, and thank God my friends don't understand the horrific reality

of being raised by mentally ill parents. "

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, , but I also think we

are a LOT more sensitive and intuitive because of what we went through than they

are. We FEEL more than most people do because we know what it feels like first

hand to be abused horrifically and neglected and emotionally abandoned in turns

and they do not.

Most people can only understand something deeply if they themselves have been

through it. Otherwise it is like watching a movie to them of someone else's

life and experiences. I myself can't watch horror movies or people being abused

in any way even though I know it is not real because I FEEL THEIR PAIN as silly

as that sounds. Often my reaction to that is anger and I want justice for the

abused right then and there which is silly since it isn't reality but when I do

hear of it in the real world in the news, I want these abusers hung out to dry

quickly and without compassion. So perhaps in a sense MY compassion for abusers

isn't what it should be as my one friend points out and I am 'expecting normalcy

from a mentally ill old woman' (in my nada's case) but I'm just expecting a bit

more BALANCE in her sorry life (though I am not going to get that). In MY mind

even though obviously our nadas and fadas are mentally ill and incapable of

acting like a sane, rational parent, they still are responsible for their

actions or am I wrong there?

In time you will come to a place where I have which is that you accept that

these friends of yours will never get it and if you want understanding and

compassion, it will have to come from people like you and I who have been there

and not people who, in my mind, have lived charmed childhoods with a Donna

or Mrs. Cleaver mother or a great, understanding father like Ward Cleaver or

Donna 's husband the doctor. We have to realize that that part of our lives

(though it still haunts us) is over thank God and though we carry all the battle

scars, 'fleas', or whatever you choose to call them, we have to try to put it in

perspective so it doesn't continue to eat us up inside and destroy what

happiness we can find in the here and now which for some of us isn't much, but

we've got to try or the nadas and fadas have continued to win and we've lost.

Feel sorry for your friends who don't get it because I think we're higher

evolved than they are because we DO have compassion for others more than they do

and we DO feel their pain even though they can't feel ours. Yes it was a

horrible way to grow in that compassion and sensitivity for others, but I like

to believe through our greatest pain comes our greatest soul's growth.

[Guest guest]

" I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, , but I also think

we are a LOT more sensitive and intuitive because of what we went through than

they are. We FEEL more than most people do because we know what it feels like

first hand to be abused horrifically and neglected and emotionally abandoned in

turns and they do not. "

That's totally been my experience, and I'm curious about one thing: do you

sometimes find yourself TOO sensitive or TOO intuitive? My husband and I have

learned that I tend to get super nervous every time he betrays even the

slightest hint of irritation at everything (which is often) because I can pick

up on the tiniest emotional hiccup, and I always get frightened by it (being

very used to taking the blame for every problem).

[Guest guest]

Marilyn and Psyclone, yep I guess it as if growing up that way just sensitizes

us and most " lucky " people don't get that sensitization. I'll work on trying

not to feel so pissed about it...but I'll tell ya it is hard! And yep Marilyn I

have the same problem with horror movies - I even have to cover my eyes while

watching some tv shows!

I notice small cues and react strongly to them - growing up this was important

because I would be able to anticipate when my nada's mood was about to turn

nasty or when she was building up hostility. If I had not been able to tune in

like that, each explosion of hers would have seemed out of the blue and I would

never have been able to figure out how to change my behavior to protect myself.

Geeesh that's effed up.

>

> " I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, , but I also think

we are a LOT more sensitive and intuitive because of what we went through than

they are. We FEEL more than most people do because we know what it feels like

first hand to be abused horrifically and neglected and emotionally abandoned in

turns and they do not. "

>

> That's totally been my experience, and I'm curious about one thing: do you

sometimes find yourself TOO sensitive or TOO intuitive? My husband and I have

learned that I tend to get super nervous every time he betrays even the

slightest hint of irritation at everything (which is often) because I can pick

up on the tiniest emotional hiccup, and I always get frightened by it (being

very used to taking the blame for every problem).

>

[Guest guest]

I am way too sensitive...especially if I think someone is not on my side about

something, lol. I also feel overly senstive to being called stupid and being

made to feel stupid.

My mother used to say when God gave out brains I heard trains and ran away.

Too bad I didn't run away when he handed out parents.

Re:how to forgive these clueless friends?

" I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, , but I also think

we are a LOT more sensitive and intuitive because of what we went through than

they are. We FEEL more than most people do because we know what it feels like

first hand to be abused horrifically and neglected and emotionally abandoned in

turns and they do not. "

That's totally been my experience, and I'm curious about one thing: do you

sometimes find yourself TOO sensitive or TOO intuitive? My husband and I have

learned that I tend to get super nervous every time he betrays even the

slightest hint of irritation at everything (which is often) because I can pick

up on the tiniest emotional hiccup, and I always get frightened by it (being

very used to taking the blame for every problem).

[Guest guest]

i wish i would have taken my mom up on one of her ultimatums...leaving, never

coming back, and having my family never talk to me again...I think I would have

been better off and healthier to leave such sickness.

Re:how to forgive these clueless friends?

" I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, , but I also think

we are a LOT more sensitive and intuitive because of what we went through than

they are. We FEEL more than most people do because we know what it feels like

first hand to be abused horrifically and neglected and emotionally abandoned in

turns and they do not. "

That's totally been my experience, and I'm curious about one thing: do you

sometimes find yourself TOO sensitive or TOO intuitive? My husband and I have

learned that I tend to get super nervous every time he betrays even the

slightest hint of irritation at everything (which is often) because I can pick

up on the tiniest emotional hiccup, and I always get frightened by it (being

very used to taking the blame for every problem).

[Guest guest]

Back and forth, back and forth, I go from hating her for what she did to me...to

feeling so sorry for her for this that she can't control...she is in pain

also...it's so hard!!!!!!!!!!!

Re:how to forgive these clueless friends?

" I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, , but I also think

we are a LOT more sensitive and intuitive because of what we went through than

they are. We FEEL more than most people do because we know what it feels like

first hand to be abused horrifically and neglected and emotionally abandoned in

turns and they do not. "

That's totally been my experience, and I'm curious about one thing: do you

sometimes find yourself TOO sensitive or TOO intuitive? My husband and I have

learned that I tend to get super nervous every time he betrays even the

slightest hint of irritation at everything (which is often) because I can pick

up on the tiniest emotional hiccup, and I always get frightened by it (being

very used to taking the blame for every problem).

[Guest guest]

Hey - you made me laugh! 'run away when he handed out parents " ! hee hee

Someone not being on my side is a big deal for me too.

tre

>

>

> I am way too sensitive...especially if I think someone is not on my side about

something, lol. I also feel overly senstive to being called stupid and being

made to feel stupid.

>

> My mother used to say when God gave out brains I heard trains and ran away.

>

> Too bad I didn't run away when he handed out parents.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The way I think about this is that from the instant we wake up each morning,

each adult has to make choices on a moment by moment basis.

Do I want breakfast or just coffee? Do I ignore that rude person or confront

him? Do I take an aspirin for this headache or just ride it out?

At any moment in time each and every day of my life-time, my mother could have

chosen to go into therapy. When she got angry, she could have chosen to go

outside and walk around the backyard to blow off steam instead of hitting me.

She could have counted to ten before screaming at me and calling me horrible

names for doing something as innocuous as loading the dishwasher " the wrong

way " , meaning not precisely how she herself would do it.

My mother could apparently choose to not slap me around and terrorize me in

public, so she certainly had the ability to not behave that way in private, but

she chose to because she felt entitled to, and it apparently (I'm guessing) gave

her a feeling of relief to unload her frustrations and anger on someone who

could not fight back.

So, when I start to feel sorry for my mother, I just remind myself that as an

adult, she had all the power and all the choice in how she might or might not

react toward her child on a moment by moment basis, and she chose to hurt me.

Over and over again.

I don't feel sorry for bullies.

-Annie

>

> Back and forth, back and forth, I go from hating her for what she did to

me...to feeling so sorry for her for this that she can't control...she is in

pain also...it's so hard!!!!!!!!!!!

>

[Guest guest]

You're right, Barry, it's so hard!!!!!!!!!!  There's a balance out there for

you, you just have to find it.  Personally, I don't think the hate thing worked

for me at all so I couldn't stay there.  But I can see how it happens.  But

feeling sorry for someone with BPD -- empathy might be better.  It isn't their

fault.  But there can be a conditioning process.  Before we can help anyone

else, we have to help ourselves and get strong and reclaim being whole.  It's

like a bank account -- if we keep making withdrawals of energy for them but

there aren't any deposits from anywhere, we go bankrupt -- the hate

predominates.  It's not wrong to get ourselves some information on wholeness

and

spirituality and growth; it's not wrong to work on ourselves until we are strong

enough and whole enough to deal with the problem in a loving but firmly

supportive way.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sun, October 24, 2010 8:00:11 PM

Subject: Re: Re:how to forgive these clueless friends?

 

Back and forth, back and forth, I go from hating her for what she did to me...to

feeling so sorry for her for this that she can't control...she is in pain

also...it's so hard!!!!!!!!!!!

Re:how to forgive these clueless friends?

" I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, , but I also think

we are a LOT more sensitive and intuitive because of what we went through than

they are. We FEEL more than most people do because we know what it feels like

first hand to be abused horrifically and neglected and emotionally abandoned in

turns and they do not. "

That's totally been my experience, and I'm curious about one thing: do you

sometimes find yourself TOO sensitive or TOO intuitive? My husband and I have

learned that I tend to get super nervous every time he betrays even the

slightest hint of irritation at everything (which is often) because I can pick

up on the tiniest emotional hiccup, and I always get frightened by it (being

very used to taking the blame for every problem).

[Guest guest]

Annie...you are so right...everything you just said is the truth...yet i still

have a strange compassion for her because i somehow believe she doesn't

understand that adults think before they speak or cut you off forever. It's my

life now...and i really need to stop obsessing about her needs a nd past...and

focus on living pain free for the rest of MY precious life. I almost committed

suicide because she left me no freakin way out of her wrath. and i was too

frozen and scared to save myself and leave. she could have thought about her

words and chosen to be loving, but she didn't. i have such a hard time with how

she tries to be loving now. she's lucky she didn't have to bury me. if i were a

more courageous person back then, i would have had the guts to kill myself.

amy

Re:how to forgive these clueless friends?

The way I think about this is that from the instant we wake up each morning,

each adult has to make choices on a moment by moment basis.

Do I want breakfast or just coffee? Do I ignore that rude person or confront

him? Do I take an aspirin for this headache or just ride it out?

At any moment in time each and every day of my life-time, my mother could have

chosen to go into therapy. When she got angry, she could have chosen to go

outside and walk around the backyard to blow off steam instead of hitting me.

She could have counted to ten before screaming at me and calling me horrible

names for doing something as innocuous as loading the dishwasher " the wrong

way " , meaning not precisely how she herself would do it.

My mother could apparently choose to not slap me around and terrorize me in

public, so she certainly had the ability to not behave that way in private, but

she chose to because she felt entitled to, and it apparently (I'm guessing) gave

her a feeling of relief to unload her frustrations and anger on someone who

could not fight back.

So, when I start to feel sorry for my mother, I just remind myself that as an

adult, she had all the power and all the choice in how she might or might not

react toward her child on a moment by moment basis, and she chose to hurt me.

Over and over again.

I don't feel sorry for bullies.

-Annie

>

> Back and forth, back and forth, I go from hating her for what she did to

me...to feeling so sorry for her for this that she can't control...she is in

pain also...it's so hard!!!!!!!!!!!

>

[Guest guest]

I feel for your pain and for the double-bind you're in (if I'm understanding

correctly) because your mother is now behaving in a more normal, loving way in

an effort to elicit sympathy and attention from you.

Each person has to find his or her own way, there's no one-size-fits-all

solution for having (or not having) a relationship with a " nada " ( " not-a-mom "

/bpd mom); its completely individual.

What helped me may not be useful for you, but you never know.

I began to write down every memorable childhood incident that would come to me,

even fragments of memories, whenever I could. Some I could easily place in

time, others not so easily, but I didn't worry so much about having them in

order, just getting them down in writing was the goal. I also began keeping a

" diary " or " journal " of more current events RE my relationship with my mother.

What I began to notice was a pattern of behavior.

The years of memorable incidents started to put things into perspective for me:

that my mother had a characteristic way of behaving and that I had a

characteristic way of reacting to it.

It gave me a sense of empowerment to see that my mother's behaviors were more

predictable than I'd ever realized; and it made her behaviors more impersonal in

a way. It made her critical, insulting, demanding, perfectionist, unrealistic

expectations of me seem less like my fault, as I'd been raised to believe. Her

cognitive distortions and bottomless black hole of emotional need, her need to

totally control and dominate me, her rages and physical and emotional

assaults... none of that actually had anything to do with me.

I didn't make her that way, she came that way. Nada treated my dad, my Sister

and me, and her own older sister badly, nobody else. We were her targets. She

attacked us because she could get away with it. Her husband/my dad was

non-confrontational and enmeshed and enabling. Her sister realized that

confrontation was pointless and simply withdrew when attacked. My little Sister

and I couldn't confront our own mother and tell her to stop mistreating us; that

was beyond the realm of possibility.

The other thing was that I began to stop feeling quite so guilty and defective

and like I deserved to be mistreated, and instead I began to feel angry. I

tapped into a deep well of repressed anger over how I'd been repeatedly

emotionally scarred and traumatized. Anger can be very empowering when you are

actively being abused. My anger helped me separate emotionally from my nada,

helped me stop needing her approval, attention, or what passed for love from

her. I started having a sense of outrage. How dare she treat a little child

like that? How dare she try to make me believe that all of her rage, her hurt,

her frustrations and disappointments were my fault. Trying to cripple me with

guilt and bind me to her forever to act out her rage against... that is

reprehensible.

So: (a) noticing the repetitive cycle of her abusive behaviors, and ( letting

myself feel the righteous anger about the mistreatment inflicted on me helped me

to detach emotionally from my mother. I'm not completely detached, but I don't

feel responsible for making her happy any longer and I don't feel overwhelming

guilt for withdrawing from contact with her in order to protect myself from

further abuse.

I feel some guilt, but not overwhelming, devastating guilt.

So in my opinion, yes, you do deserve to have your own joyful, separate, adult

life, and protecting yourself from abuse doesn't make you a bad person.

-Annie

> >

> > Back and forth, back and forth, I go from hating her for what she did to

me...to feeling so sorry for her for this that she can't control...she is in

pain also...it's so hard!!!!!!!!!!!

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Grrr,,your nada just pisses me off.I'd like to say to her: God gave you the

precious gift of a child and you never understood what that was--now who was

stupid? Your daughter,on the other hand,had the brains not to follow your

example.You not only disregarded the well being of your own child but by doing

so you also put the well being of your future grandchildren in serious

jeopardy.Thankfully your daughter is a much more intelligent mother than you

were.

It sickens me to think of any " mother " deriving amusement from calling her

child " stupid " .It's sickening.

>

>

> I am way too sensitive...especially if I think someone is not on my side about

something, lol. I also feel overly senstive to being called stupid and being

made to feel stupid.

>

> My mother used to say when God gave out brains I heard trains and ran away.

>

> Too bad I didn't run away when he handed out parents.

>

>