Guest guest Posted October 16, 2010 Report Share Posted October 16, 2010 Hey , Yes, I completely relate. I'm much more compassionate to other people who are needy/frightened/anxious than I do with my mother. As soon as my mother goes into waif mode, I become like a soldier or a statue. No response. No emotion. I barely respond. I don't want to encourage it as I've done before. Reading your post is a reflection of my daily conversations with my mother; everything is a drama, a reason to melt down and I'm supposed to join her in it and commiserate and ask how I can help. I'm with you; I just " uh huh " her until it's over and I can hang up. I know what you mean about being concerned your heart will harden. I'm involved in my church and feel my back go up around people who remind me of my mother's tactics and I have to ask myself….am I just trigger happy or is this person truly in need? It's hard to know. I also feel like I'm quite tired of being the ultra understanding, compassionate, listening ear who will do anything to make the hurt go away for others. I really need to do some inventory in regards to this. I read " Boundaries " by Cloud/Townsend years ago and think I need to re-read it again. Fiona > > I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. > > Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a waify nada relate? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2010 Report Share Posted October 16, 2010 I'm afraid of becoming hardened and cynical about other people's real needs, myself. Its something I have to stay aware of, because I tend to do that same thing, becoming rigid and unresponsive when someone (particularly someone I don't know well) seems emotionally needy plus demanding, controlling or bossy: nada's behaviors. -Annie > > Hey , > > Yes, I completely relate. I'm much more compassionate to other people who are needy/frightened/anxious than I do with my mother. As soon as my mother goes into waif mode, I become like a soldier or a statue. No response. No emotion. I barely respond. I don't want to encourage it as I've done before. > > Reading your post is a reflection of my daily conversations with my mother; everything is a drama, a reason to melt down and I'm supposed to join her in it and commiserate and ask how I can help. I'm with you; I just " uh huh " her until it's over and I can hang up. > > I know what you mean about being concerned your heart will harden. I'm involved in my church and feel my back go up around people who remind me of my mother's tactics and I have to ask myself….am I just trigger happy or is this person truly in need? It's hard to know. > > I also feel like I'm quite tired of being the ultra understanding, compassionate, listening ear who will do anything to make the hurt go away for others. I really need to do some inventory in regards to this. > > I read " Boundaries " by Cloud/Townsend years ago and think I need to re-read it again. > > Fiona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2010 Report Share Posted October 16, 2010 I can relate to you. I used to be such a ham for anyone and easy to manipulate and use. I changed. I still have empathy and sympathy. I still care for others very deeply and care what happens to others and still don't want anyone hurt. But I've come to realize I don't have control over most of that. I've also come to realize that someone may NEED help. But the question is, the one I ask myself now, is does the person WANT help? Or does the person just want to use me and/or others to do things for them. Parents often have to use " tough love " with teens and even after high school -- offspring that just won't go to work, earn a living, etc. I believe there is a " tough love " quotient for all of us, too. We can be enslaved by another or choose not to be. We can choose when to do things for another and when not to. If it is better for the other person to learn to do things for themselves, I will role model for a bit. If they don't start doing for themselves, I am not going to enable them (as long as they truly are capable of doing whatever task it is for themselves). Some people need help in the way of learning to be self-sufficient, but they don't WANT that kind of help. ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 12:34:20 AM Subject: lifetime allotment?  I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a waify nada relate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2010 Report Share Posted October 16, 2010 Not much to add except ..... YES!! Totally relate. When I try to tell people my situation with waify I have to stop and explain --- " if it was just this one thing, or that one thing, it would be different " . It's just that it's a LIFETIME of this behavior, in every and all situations, that adds up to just feel like a whole lot of drama about nothing. And when it actually IS something, oh man! Watch out! So it does become exausting and it does make you feel cold and hardened when you don't cave and give into it. And when I do stay more distant from it, I can hear the criticisms that are probably going through her head and might be shared with others -- oh, she's so selfish, she doesn't understand because she isn't in this situation, she doesn't have it hard like I do, no one has so much crazy bad stuff happen to them, etc., etc.! > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a waify nada relate? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2010 Report Share Posted October 16, 2010 Yeah. I'm just sick and tired, sick and tired, sick and tired of tap dancing and tap dancing and tap dancing to take care of other people while my own life has been utter shit since I arrived on the planet. It's simple compassion fatigue. I need my own needs to be met. They never have been, and I need to feel good for a change and not bad. You can only do so much for other people when your own gas tank has been empty for the past ten years yourself. --LL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2010 Report Share Posted October 16, 2010 Sossity, you get it - it's that accumulation, that drip drip drip of this experience that is the problem. Sorry you are having to deal with this too. It's so insidious because it has its harmful effects but yet I don't feel justified to go NC over it, even LC and certainly not in anyone else's eyes. And yet it IS a problem and it feels the most powerful thing I can do is to change *me* - yet I don't want to change me because damnit SHE's the one with the problem! Well, okay I've got issues too, but *she* started it. And you are so right, when there is a real problem they milk it for all it is worth. Fiona, it is a hard thing because when I read that you are " the ultra understanding, compassionate, listening ear who will do anything to make the hurt go away for others " this sounds to me like you bring a beautiful compassion to this world. And it's a sad thing that you should feel burnt out on it, but I relate very much. I'm not sure how we can maintain that level of being there for others and protect ourselves too. Some have told me that it's possible to be compassionate and have boundaries, but I honestly don't believe it. I've met these boundaried compassionate people and they do a good job at expressing a bit of caring and then putting up a wall. Which is their right, but some people truly do legitimately need way more than that. But then when need becomes a way to ensnare or enslave a caring person then it becomes something else which we are unfortuntaely to familiar with. Thanks for mentioning " Boundaries " I still need to read that one. Annie, of course you want to avoid taking it to far but it sounds to me like you've got some good early warning systems set up. I'm often the most vulnerable with someone I don't know well - I still have the childhood lesson that " strangers are good " . 'cause in my world they were and I always hoped they would take me away and tell me I was adopted and here's my real wonderful parents. , I hear ya about being sick and tired. When I think on that my nada is in her last year or two of being able to live independently without a lot of help - either me setting up services, a home, etc. I feel afraid. I'm also in line for her sister/my aunt because I'll be her last living relative and she's a few years younger than my nada. And yet they do need eldercare, neither has done anything so horrible for me to cut them loose knowing there is no one else. Yet, I blanche at the thought of it. " It's simple compassion fatigue. " Indeed. I know you do caretaking for two people and you've shared how rough it is but you feel it is necessary. I hope there's some way to balance others needs with your own....and for me too. HUGS to all you guys, it means a lot to be understood about this here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 I can empathize. For me my mother wants to unload and wants sympathy but is unwilling to change or reach out for any professiona or peer-oriented help (like 12 step Coda/al-anon, etc). So it becomes same old same old and I wonder if I am enabling her by continuing to listen. I once heard a woman in one of the codependency meetings talking about how she went to an al-anon oriented counselor once and for everything she said, the woman replied, " and what are you going to DO about it? " over and over. At first I didn't understand this but now I get it. It seemed cruel at the time but with my mother I think it would help. She doesn't want to change, she wants a shoulder to cry on. Endlessly. It comes from honest trauma, her mother died when she was ten years old and her father was an alcoholic, pedophile, and compulsive gambler. But none of us can help or heal her buried trauma and pain. And so the cycle continues. ly it is exhausting. I am considering telling her I am just not qualified to listen to her woe and manipulative comments anymore. Another point...I never, until very recently, realized just how much aggression she veils in these comments and how destructive she is to me and other people because of it. It is like I am seeing her for the first time. It's very unsettling. Because she catches you off guard and there is just no way you can respond. Her father did alot of damage to me as a child with just a week-long interaction with this kind of psychological manipulation (coupled with sexual abuse) and it's unnerving to see she has picked up this trait as well. I am 42 and I have never put these pieces together. > > I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. > > Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a waify nada relate? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 I think that we all have limits. Once we start to learn more about the illness, and take control of our own mental health, we start to tolerate less BS. I know thats certainly what has happened with me. I very easily recognize the trap, I have less tolerance for drama and distance myself from people who are BPD like. > > I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. > > Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a waify nada relate? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 Dude!!! Joe, did I just hear you say your nada was sexually abused by her father, and then she left you with him for a full week??? *WTH!!!!!!!!!!!!* > > > I think that we all have limits. Once we start to learn more about the > illness, and take control of our own mental health, we start to tolerate > less BS. I know thats certainly what has happened with me. I very easily > recognize the trap, I have less tolerance for drama and distance myself from > people who are BPD like. > > > > > > I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate > in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went > pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked > about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and > concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I > think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was > supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. > > > > Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy > weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things > I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of > how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I > don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken > advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? > > > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a > waify nada relate? > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 > > It's so insidious because it has its harmful effects but yet I don't feel justified to go NC over it, even LC and certainly not in anyone else's eyes. And yet it IS a problem and it feels the most powerful thing I can do is to change *me* - yet I don't want to change me because damnit SHE's the one with the problem! Well, okay I've got issues too, but *she* started it. And you are so right, when there is a real problem they milk it for all it is worth. > > I so sympathize... I read the stories of the horrible, unthinkable abuse that so many here have suffered and i feel that I really got off easy with my BPD waif mother! And I can't imagine going NC or LC most of the time, and no one else would understand if I did... But boundaries <sigh> yes - I need them and I am working on them. My t says I am very much the caretaker/mother figure in the relationship and I am horribly, almost paralyzingly non-confrontational!!!!! But lately it has actually been a huge relief to start to hear a story and then step back and not get sucked in. In the past I would hear the story, get stressed and upset, feel very guilty and sad for her. Now it has been altered, as I realize two things: 1, the story is, highly likely, not as she tells it 2, there is precious little I can do about it, it's up to HER to make the changes!!!! The other day she told me - out of the blue while we were talking about something else entirely - about how when she got divorced from my dad and moved back in with my grandmother, how Grandma " wasn't nice to her at all after her divorce " , and even made her sign a covered up paper that turned out to be her tax returns, which she then took and said it would teach nada responsibility. At first, for a second, I thought " how awful of Grandma! she really was mean to nada " Then seconds later (and this is new for me) I stepped back and thought... there are missing facts here. Who would sign a covered up document??? And why WOULD Grandma take that $? Maybe because nada was living there unemployed, free of charge while Grandma did the cooking, cleaning and babysitting for me while nada went out? Knowing the personalities involved, THAT was the real story. Nada was just splitting Grandma as she's done many times over the years, which is so confusing to a child who has only ever been shown love by Grandma! Of course no ones perfect, and parents make mistakes. But this is the way it works in nadas mind - one step to try to create a boundary equaled being " mean " to her. (Preaching to the choir I realize) So at that point in the story from nada I was able to think it through and realize it was her distorted perception of events and then explain it to myself again... from a different perspective. Does that make sense? It's been happening a lot, and it's incredible to me that now at age 38 I am FINALLY seeing her through different eyes, and understanding so much more! Thanks for letting me vent, I learn so much from all of you guys and am in awe of your strength, resilience and humor as well. ;-) Keep on keepin' on!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 > > I once heard a woman in one of the codependency meetings talking about how she went to an al-anon oriented counselor once and for everything she said, the woman replied, " and what are you going to DO about it? " over and over. WOW! I love this, it's so perfect!!! I wonder if I could get the gumption to actually say this to nada. (reference previous post about debilitating-at-times non-confrontational tendencies!) I have tried the more subtle ways and was met with tear filled hurt words, " so you are saying this is all my fault?! " Um... well, no, some of it yes, based on your awful decisions (!!) but really what I am saying is that it is not what happens to you but your reactions to it. One of my FAVORITE sayings is: If you are not changing it, you are choosing it. I think that's because I try so hard NOT to be the victim!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 I think you are right. During our formative years enduring physical, emotional, or sexual abuse, neglect, being parentified or being exploited by our own parents was our " normal. " We had no control, no power to protect ourselves, and no options; we were trapped. So our psyches /subconscious kicked in and shielded us from the reality using denial or dissociation to keep us from plummeting too deeply into despair. But as adults, not seeing and not hearing abuse directed at us is counter-productive. As adults we do have power, and we can protect ourselves. So as adults, we need to be able to recognize abusive behaviors when we experience them and we need to be able to respond appropriately. My theory is that at some point in our adult years, the automatic defensive, protective mechanism of denial just " switches off. " We allow ourselves to see, hear, and experience the reality of how abusively our parents treat us, and we rebel against it, finally. We simply stand up like the adults we are and say, " Its not OK to treat me like that and I'm not going to take this anymore. " For some this " waking up " or " light bulb moment " comes sooner, for others it comes later. I think this tends to happen when the KO becomes a parent, herself or himself. The KO can't imagine treating her own beloved child the way she herself was treated. But, that's just my theory, a musing or speculation to take or leave. Maybe I'll call it " The Last Straw " theory. -Annie > > > > I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. > > > > Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? > > > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a waify nada relate? > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 That's just criminal on so many levels: deliberately leaving your own little girl with the man who sexually molested you, guaranteeing that your child would be be sexually violated (and emotionally abused) like you were. That's just, I can't even express how horrified and outraged I am. Its beyond sickening. Good Lord. You poor little child, I wish someone, anyone, could have rescued you. -Annie > > > > > > I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate > > in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went > > pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked > > about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and > > concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I > > think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was > > supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. > > > > > > Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy > > weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things > > I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of > > how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I > > don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken > > advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? > > > > > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a > > waify nada relate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 climberkayak, I know exactly what you are saying about being cold. My Dad had a stroke last christmas and became paralyzed. I live with him and it's been difficult watching him reject help and just endure. I found him many easy and cheap treatments that can work and since it's from me he just thinks they're tainted. It's like BPD'ers have absolutely no creative problem solving skills at all. They just sit and suffer forever. His whole family has left him and I'm all he has left. God, and do I hate them to the extreme, I hate them more than I hate my Dad. I really bonded with him during his hospital stay but as soon as he was home again he started to always be upset at me again. I was really shocked at that and honestly I care less and less that he's paralyzed now. If he won't accept free and very low cost treatments then there is nothing I can do and I'm becoming more and more O.k. with that. Hell, just becoming O.k. with it is making me pissed off at him. > > > > I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. > > > > Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? > > > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a waify nada relate? > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 Hi , If you are your dad's sole caregiver and he is paralyzed, that is truly *more* than a full-time job: it takes several people to care for someone who is not able to do anything for himself: can't feed himself, can't use the toilet by himself, needs to be turned on the bed to prevent bedsores, etc. I suggest that you consult with someone in Social Services to find out what options are available to you and your dad, RE getting part-time caregivers to come in so you're not doing all of it yourself. You'll soon reach " burnout " stage if you're doing such extreme care-giving 24-7. Its not a one-person job. Perhaps consult with a lawyer who is experienced in elder-care issues, find out if you can get power of attorney or make decisions for your father RE his care. Maybe he needs to be in an assisted living situation, depending on how paralyzed he is. All I'm saying is protect yourself. Its not required for you to sacrifice yourself on an altar to appease your dad when there are other options, better options, for both of you regarding his care and treatment. Just my two cents worth, to take or leave. -Annie > > > > > > I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. > > > > > > Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? > > > > > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a waify nada relate? > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 Annie, You're correct. He's partially paralyzed, can walk, talk, take care of himself, he has a limp and his left hand and arm are useless. Thankgod he's partially self sufficient, I take care of the house, dishes, cleaning, etc. I live there because I'm unemployed(Michigan) and he had a role in keeping me that way. I stood up to him and he had me arrested and prosecuted for a disorderly conduct in our house. Part and partial of setting boundaries and mirroring his behavior, albeit with employment consequences. I did try to find out if he qualifies for home assistance pay from the SS but he just eeks out of the income requirements, oh well. He owes me a ton of money and can't pay due to ALWAYS being broke. I'm broke due to his goddamn control freak behavior but 'eh, what can I do other than run screaming to the homeless shelter. > > > > > > > > I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. > > > > > > > > Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? > > > > > > > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a waify nada relate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 Hi , There's been some great input on this thread; here is another thought for you. I think this is about projection. I think that Cluster Bs are unable to handle their own emotions, and they have a talent for making other people feel FOR them. The goal is not to help themselves or even to *get* help for themselves when they 'unload' like this--it's to transfer their own discomfort to another person, a person who is vulnerable to it (like a child) or willing to take it (like a friend or attorney or hairdresser or therapist who doesn't know the bpd well enough to not accept their panic). One real way to spot a bpd is when they unload a panicked, desperate 'problem' onto you about the way they are being treated by someone, and then when you sympathize and/or offer a solution, they either attack you or explain in a panic why that solution won't work...Their goal is projection, not solution. --Charlie > > I'm wondering if I'm nearing my lifetime allotment of what I'll tolerate in terms of waify behavior. Today I talked with my nada and overall it went pretty well. I was on my game, didn't reveal anything I shouldn't, talked about superficial stuff, but she made a couple of plays for sympathy and concern that were clearly manipulative. I saw through them (yay me) and I think I quite frustrated her with my lack of satisfying response. I was supposed to be concerned, offer sympathy, *worry* about her - and I didn't. > > Yet....as I thought about it later I thought her plays for sympathy weren't crazy or neurotic really. If someone else had said those same things I might not have even skipped a beat. BUT because it was her and because of how I've had to give Give GIVE my whole life I feel cold in response. I don't want my heart to harden. Yet it has been my giving nature she's taken advantage of the most so it is only fair, only right? > > Not sure if I really have a point here - just sharing. Anyone with a waify nada relate? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2010 Report Share Posted October 18, 2010 When I was a child and teen, my mother displayed more " Witch/Queen " type of bpd behaviors. She ruled us through fear and intimidation and threat, she punished using shame and humiliation, terror, threats of abandonment, and physical assaults. As she has aged, her MO has evolved. She stopped physically attacking us when we grew big enough that we could " take it " . (What point was there in beating me with the belt if I acted like it didn't hurt?) She continued with the emotional abuse, however; throughout my adult years (and Sister's) nada has been mostly the " Queen " type of bpd. As nada has aged, though, she has evolved into more of a " Waif " , and I can tell you that for me, that's the hardest to deal with as an adult. The whining, crying, begging and seeming remorseful behaviors are just not something I want to deal with. And my nada does the broken-winged little bird / pitiful angelic little old lady stuff really well, I can tell you. (Then, when you're not expecting it, she'll strike like a hidden viper with an insult or criticism. So the Witch is still there, just more covert now.) When you try to simply set reasonable boundaries with someone who is playing the Uber-Waif, it makes you feel like a monster. Its the worst manipulative weapon they have, and its the one that works when all else fails: they go pathetic. -Annie > > > > It's so insidious because it has its harmful effects but yet I don't feel justified to go NC over it, even LC and certainly not in anyone else's eyes. And yet it IS a problem and it feels the most powerful thing I can do is to change *me* - yet I don't want to change me because damnit SHE's the one with the problem! Well, okay I've got issues too, but *she* started it. And you are so right, when there is a real problem they milk it for all it is worth. > > > > > > I so sympathize... I read the stories of the horrible, unthinkable abuse that so many here have suffered and i feel that I really got off easy with my BPD waif mother! And I can't imagine going NC or LC most of the time, and no one else would understand if I did... But boundaries <sigh> yes - I need them and I am working on them. My t says I am very much the caretaker/mother figure in the relationship and I am horribly, almost paralyzingly non-confrontational!!!!! > > But lately it has actually been a huge relief to start to hear a story and then step back and not get sucked in. In the past I would hear the story, get stressed and upset, feel very guilty and sad for her. Now it has been altered, as I realize two things: 1, the story is, highly likely, not as she tells it 2, there is precious little I can do about it, it's up to HER to make the changes!!!! > > The other day she told me - out of the blue while we were talking about something else entirely - about how when she got divorced from my dad and moved back in with my grandmother, how Grandma " wasn't nice to her at all after her divorce " , and even made her sign a covered up paper that turned out to be her tax returns, which she then took and said it would teach nada responsibility. At first, for a second, I thought " how awful of Grandma! she really was mean to nada " Then seconds later (and this is new for me) I stepped back and thought... there are missing facts here. Who would sign a covered up document??? And why WOULD Grandma take that $? Maybe because nada was living there unemployed, free of charge while Grandma did the cooking, cleaning and babysitting for me while nada went out? Knowing the personalities involved, THAT was the real story. Nada was just splitting Grandma as she's done many times over the years, which is so confusing to a child who has only ever been shown love by Grandma! Of course no ones perfect, and parents make mistakes. But this is the way it works in nadas mind - one step to try to create a boundary equaled being " mean " to her. (Preaching to the choir I realize) > > So at that point in the story from nada I was able to think it through and realize it was her distorted perception of events and then explain it to myself again... from a different perspective. Does that make sense? It's been happening a lot, and it's incredible to me that now at age 38 I am FINALLY seeing her through different eyes, and understanding so much more! > > Thanks for letting me vent, I learn so much from all of you guys and am in awe of your strength, resilience and humor as well. ;-) Keep on keepin' on!!! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 > > > When you try to simply set reasonable boundaries with someone who is > playing the Uber-Waif, it makes you feel like a monster. Its the worst manipulative weapon they have, and its the one that works when all else fails: they go pathetic. > Oh, Annie, thank you so much for this! You really helped validate my feelings on the whole matter!! It's a huge relief to know that others really struggle with this, I felt like I was just a horrible person at times and it's damn near impossible to explain the situation to others. I do tend to think that I would not " allow " someone to be outwardly mean, negative, nasty to me, but this kind of weasly, backhanded, helpless, victimized waif thing is soooo hard for me to respond appropriately to. (err... reference pathological non-confrontationalism) I always tend to just manage and handle whatever things come up because I know I am strong enough and can handle it, and the waif obviously cannot. sigh... Thanks again for understanding and wording it so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 My friend has a bpd mother. She came at him with a ton of waify FOG. He came right back at her telling her she was using guilt to control and manipulate. She sputtered and then revealed horrible things about her childhood he had never ever heard before. Was she broken down by the truthful confrontation or was she upping the ante of the waif routine? Who knows. > > > > > > > > > > When you try to simply set reasonable boundaries with someone who is > > playing the Uber-Waif, it makes you feel like a monster. Its the worst > manipulative weapon they have, and its the one that works when all else > fails: they go pathetic. > > > > Oh, Annie, thank you so much for this! You really helped validate my > feelings on the whole matter!! It's a huge relief to know that others really > struggle with this, I felt like I was just a horrible person at times and > it's damn near impossible to explain the situation to others. I do tend to > think that I would not " allow " someone to be outwardly mean, negative, nasty > to me, but this kind of weasly, backhanded, helpless, victimized waif thing > is soooo hard for me to respond appropriately to. (err... reference > pathological non-confrontationalism) I always tend to just manage and handle > whatever things come up because I know I am strong enough and can handle it, > and the waif obviously cannot. sigh... > > Thanks again for understanding and wording it so well. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 Millicent, I can't speak for your friend's bpd mother. But my sister, bpd and bipolar and schizoaffective, ever since high school (we are now in our 60s) has lied about our parents. She has told everyone they are alcoholics. She has told everyone she was physically abused, emotionally and mentally abused, abandoned by her mother, you name it and she has said it. My parents were strict disciplinarians and we did get spanked with hands, and with different objects about the house my mom could lay her hands on -- she did not wait until she wasn't angry to spank. If we swore she did use soap in our mouths even though we'd learned the words from our parents. They did drink at times but were not alcoholics. The discipline we got was probably much less than either of our parents got, and we were never hit with a belt, etc. But to hear my sister talk about her childhood, having been there myself at the same time, one would think she'd been severely abused and I can tell you it just was not true, not true at all. And she would say we never had good Christmases -- we always had good Christmases. It used to bother me a LOT to hear her talk about our parents that way. She hones in on my mom more than dad. Now, it doesn't bother me quite so much because I will not allow her to talk about them in my presence. I laid the boundary and if she forgets or disrespects it, I walk away.  What bothers me, still, is that my sister truly believes what she says -- that it is true, that my parents were horrible and that she was severely abused. So while your friend's mother may not have been an angel, and while it is within the realm of possibility that she was abusive, it is also within the realm of possibility that though his mother may actually believe what she is saying, it just ain't so. ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 11:56:23 PM Subject: Re: Re: lifetime allotment?  My friend has a bpd mother. She came at him with a ton of waify FOG. He came right back at her telling her she was using guilt to control and manipulate. She sputtered and then revealed horrible things about her childhood he had never ever heard before. Was she broken down by the truthful confrontation or was she upping the ante of the waif routine? Who knows. > > > > > > > > > > When you try to simply set reasonable boundaries with someone who is > > playing the Uber-Waif, it makes you feel like a monster. Its the worst > manipulative weapon they have, and its the one that works when all else > fails: they go pathetic. > > > > Oh, Annie, thank you so much for this! You really helped validate my > feelings on the whole matter!! It's a huge relief to know that others really > struggle with this, I felt like I was just a horrible person at times and > it's damn near impossible to explain the situation to others. I do tend to > think that I would not " allow " someone to be outwardly mean, negative, nasty > to me, but this kind of weasly, backhanded, helpless, victimized waif thing > is soooo hard for me to respond appropriately to. (err... reference > pathological non-confrontationalism) I always tend to just manage and handle > whatever things come up because I know I am strong enough and can handle it, > and the waif obviously cannot. sigh... > > Thanks again for understanding and wording it so well. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 TinyP, I hear you. This lady is a liar and she appears to believe a lot of what she says. > > > Millicent, I can't speak for your friend's bpd mother. But my sister, bpd > and > bipolar and schizoaffective, ever since high school (we are now in our 60s) > has > lied about our parents. She has told everyone they are alcoholics. She > has > told everyone she was physically abused, emotionally and mentally abused, > abandoned by her mother, you name it and she has said it. My parents were > strict disciplinarians and we did get spanked with hands, and with > different > objects about the house my mom could lay her hands on -- she did not wait > until > she wasn't angry to spank. If we swore she did use soap in our mouths even > > though we'd learned the words from our parents. They did drink at times > but > were not alcoholics. The discipline we got was probably much less than > either > of our parents got, and we were never hit with a belt, etc. > > But to hear my sister talk about her childhood, having been there myself at > the > same time, one would think she'd been severely abused and I can tell you it > just > was not true, not true at all. > > And she would say we never had good Christmases -- we always had good > Christmases. > > It used to bother me a LOT to hear her talk about our parents that way. > She > hones in on my mom more than dad. Now, it doesn't bother me quite so > much because I will not allow her to talk about them in my presence. I > laid the > boundary and if she forgets or disrespects it, I walk away. What bothers > me, > still, is that my sister truly believes what she says -- that it is true, > that > my parents were horrible and that she was severely abused. > > So while your friend's mother may not have been an angel, and while it is > within > the realm of possibility that she was abusive, it is also within the realm > of > possibility that though his mother may actually believe what she is saying, > it > just ain't so. > > ________________________________ > From: Millicent Kunstler <millicentkunstler@...<millicentkunstler%40gmail.com> > > > To: WTOAdultChildren1 <WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 11:56:23 PM > Subject: Re: Re: lifetime allotment? > > > My friend has a bpd mother. She came at him with a ton of waify FOG. He > came > right back at her telling her she was using guilt to control and > manipulate. > She sputtered and then revealed horrible things about her childhood he had > never ever heard before. Was she broken down by the truthful confrontation > or was she upping the ante of the waif routine? Who knows. > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Sossity <XV11Star@...<XV11Star%40aol.com>> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you try to simply set reasonable boundaries with someone who is > > > > playing the Uber-Waif, it makes you feel like a monster. Its the worst > > manipulative weapon they have, and its the one that works when all else > > fails: they go pathetic. > > > > > > > Oh, Annie, thank you so much for this! You really helped validate my > > feelings on the whole matter!! It's a huge relief to know that others > really > > struggle with this, I felt like I was just a horrible person at times and > > it's damn near impossible to explain the situation to others. I do tend > to > > think that I would not " allow " someone to be outwardly mean, negative, > nasty > > to me, but this kind of weasly, backhanded, helpless, victimized waif > thing > > is soooo hard for me to respond appropriately to. (err... reference > > pathological non-confrontationalism) I always tend to just manage and > handle > > whatever things come up because I know I am strong enough and can handle > it, > > and the waif obviously cannot. sigh... > > > > Thanks again for understanding and wording it so well. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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