Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 I think that is an important insight. We keep dashing ourselves repeatedly against a brick wall, hoping that we will somehow get through it. Our hopes have to be realistic. -Annie > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 Hey there, That is an appropriate term 'abandon hope'. If you can do that you have a fighting chance to get them into therapy as now you have realistic manipulation goals to get them into therapy or medication. I like to see it as when you accurately define a question then the answer is easy. So all the people who don't know their loved one has BPD, and tries to help them that is when hope is extremely destructive. I think all of us were there at some point. What I really hate are the psychologists who will NOT be realistic about BPD parents. I went through years and years of therapy with each therapist actually yelling at me to snap out of my cognitive dissidence about my Dad. Like geeze already, I considered legal action against one of them who was the most enabling of my parents. That was 20yrs ago and I still can't get over it. Subject: Abandon Hope To: WTOAdultChildren1 Date: Sunday, October 17, 2010, 11:47 AM  Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 Yes! Hope itself is the life blood of the soul and none of us can live without hope.But.In our FOOS *the kind* of hope we hold on to can actually hold us down and imprison us in the BPD hall of mirrors.Because it is false hope--it's a mirage and never the oasis in the BPD desert--it will never fill us up,replenish us,nourish us. It seems to me that unbinding oneself from unrealistic expectations from the FOO,releasing onself from basically hoping for a hope that can never be,does definitely belong on the Fear Obligation Guilt continuum--hope is also a weapon that is used against us. Great point,Walked to Happiness! > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 You have really been through a lot. Certainly, that therapist used his/her position to worsen your pain. Of course that would take a long time to get over. Yes, we've all thought we could help our BP family member, but the diagnostic manual psychologists use says that BPD is " untreatable " . Although I have met some Ts who do have BP patients, so there are people who do try to treat them. Of course, that must be really hard bc the BP would never admit anything is wrong with them, bc they are unable to reflect upon themselves. It's truly a world of crazies. Glad to see you on here, and keep posting. There is a lot of support and understanding here. Your experiences and feelings are real. > > > Subject: Abandon Hope > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Sunday, October 17, 2010, 11:47 AM > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 a desert is a good description, a desert without an oasis, and hope would be the mirage we see from time to time as we stumble about the desert dying of thirst. Better to leave the desert and find a place with springs and rivers and lakes that are real, so that we can quench our thirst, and not just live off of the vapors of a mirage. > > > > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 I read alot about hope as a downfall when I was into Buddhism. I think detachment is healthier in a lot of FOO situations. And quick acceptance. I think hope is generated by needs, leftover inborn needs of a child that never got them met. So we shouldn't feel guilty. I am trying to not feel bad about it but instead work on the recovery when I fall into their traps again. Accept and detach and move on. Til next time. lol. > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 I really do think instant acceptance of the way strangers are is very freeing but hard to do. I used to think this is horrible and I still do but the extreme practicality needed to deal with BPD'ers shows me everybody is o.k. just in this split second they exist. In that second you can figure out how to help them that second and that is a warm feeling. Slowing everything down to where you can part the situation out and see the opportunities to fix it everywhere for no cost other than more warm feelings albeit if you induldge your feelings and let them guide you're screwed. Stuff goes kablewy! Gotta be cold and calculating in your solutions for people but don't express that feeling, it can be insulting. > > > > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 this is a great thread. Hope is definitely something that keep syou hooked... for me there was something I called the " Snow White Fantasy " - in which my BPDSO woudl somehow awaken and be cured and then see that I had been there all along, waiting for her.... this died hard. I did not realize that I still had it, three years after the divorce.... but it was there. And my BPDSO has not been cured. never will be. she didn't cause it, can't control it, and can't cure it ( to use the alanon wording). when you work through this, you also have to work through the idea that the " idealized family " you thought you were going to get, will never really happen either. that also dies hard. the trick is to start hoping for something else... hoping for respect during the rest of your life - hoping that you yourself will be storng enough to move forward. think of yourself aqs a successful survivor - that's what I do..... I wrote a list of affirmations about whAT is better in my life now, and I refer to those when i need to reframe things.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 I love that revised acronym! Something like FOG with an H binder - like a chemistry equation for self destruction. patinage > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2010 Report Share Posted October 18, 2010 Walking To Happiness-- Thanks so much for posting this. You're right (I love how Patinage described it, with hope being the binding agent). Hope has been stronger, at times, than Fear, Obligation or Guilt. That was the one thing that kept me tied to abusive situations. I think this is magnified by being trained by BPD growing up. No matter what, they always have this ability to " hope " for the next big payoff, place of perfection, perfect person, etc. Which, of course, isn't a higher level of hope at all--it is merely delusion and insanity. You've given me a new prayer: " God, tie my hope to what is real and release my heart from what is not. " Blessings, Karla > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 I never gave up Hope. Right up to the day nada died, in a psychotic break, mad at me for not violating my bounderies for her. Do I regret it? No. I regret not setting and enforcing those bounderies with her DECADES before I finally did. But to Hope? No. That I would not have given up. The Hope, you see, was not about her, but about me. I had to , and have to , believe that people can change. She could have. That she did not, doesnt make my hope useless. I can change. I have changed. I will change. At least, I hope. Doug > > > > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 I want to tattoo this post to me.... our last counselor said that my problem was that I was simply hanging on to " hope " . She made it sound like a bad thing.. therefore I felt bad most of the time. I just recently poored my guts out to her again to be told that I needed to bite the bullet. Needless to say the visit was a big waste of my time and money. Don't need to do that again when I read inspiration here. My BP can change, if he wanted to. At the moment he doesn't and probably really can't. But I know I am changing and that counts for something... I hope jill > > > I never gave up Hope. Right up to the day nada died, in a psychotic > break, mad at me for not violating my bounderies for her. > > Do I regret it? No. I regret not setting and enforcing those bounderies > with her DECADES before I finally did. But to Hope? No. That I would > not have given up. The Hope, you see, was not about her, but about me. > I had to , and have to , believe that people can change. > > She could have. That she did not, doesnt make my hope useless. I can > change. I have changed. I will change. > > At least, I hope. > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation > Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to > the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > > > > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books > called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep > humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing > reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2010 Report Share Posted October 22, 2010 That's a beautiful prayer. I like it! > > > > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2010 Report Share Posted October 22, 2010 LOL! > > > > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2010 Report Share Posted October 22, 2010 I forget which book it was by Pema Chodron, but there was a whole section of her book titled " Abandon Hope " . You may want to read it before tatooing it! > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation > > Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to > > the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > > > > > > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books > > called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep > > humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing > > reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 I think acceptance applies to ourselves as well. I don't think I will ever not want them to be normal. So for me it's I accept I got my hopes up, try to accept it's normal, try to forgive myself for the hope and move on. > > > > > > > > > Maybe we should change the term we use on here, FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt), to FOGH and include Hope in there as something that binds us to the FOO in unhealthy ways? > > > > > > The spiritual teacher Pema Chodron has a chapter in one of her books called " abandon hope " . I think what she means is that HOPE can keep humans chained to unrealistic expectations, whereas clearly seeing reality and accepting it for what it is, FREES us humans. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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