Re: How to distinguish between bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder

[Guest guest]

Dear T.P.,

I have a friend who has a bi-polar Mom, but I didn't grow up with it. From what

she's told me, I *think* I've gleaned some of the differences, but I'm not sure.

In case it's helpful, here's some of what I understand--bi-polars have true

'manic' phases where they are up all night and hyper-active, hyper-sexual, hyper

everything. Then, when they have downs, they are true depressive downs, they

are *truly* helpless and not just feigning helpless in a waify way to get

attention. Their mood swings are not based on abandonment or splitting black

the person; a person can be split white for a lifetime with a bi-polar. That

being said, the bi-polar mother that I know in particular does seem a lot like a

narcissist--everything is all about her, all the time; she did parentify and

commit covert incest with her child, and her child is severely co-dependent.

What I don't know is whether she did this out of need to harm the child, which

is what bpds and npds do, or if she just let the child 'take care' of her

emotionally because she truly needed it; and I don't know if her 'all about me'

thing was npd or just drama-queen intensity level.

I'm sure others will have input, too.

Best wishes,

Charlie

>

> Can anyone tell me some factual information about how to distinguish between

bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder? Do they have the same

symptomatology or different? If different, what is different? Is borderline a

form of bipolar disorder? Vice versa?

>

> Also, isn't narcissism prevalent in both bipolar and borderline disorders?

>

> I'm really curious and have a family member that I think might have been

misdiagnosed by the psychiatrist. If that is true, then wouldn't it follow that

the treatment won't work because she is being treated for the wrong thing?

Doesn't the treatment plan follow the correct diagnosis?

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Charlie

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sun, October 17, 2010 3:56:01 PM

Subject: Re: How to distinguish between bipolar disorder and

borderline personality disorder

Â

Dear T.P.,

I have a friend who has a bi-polar Mom, but I didn't grow up with it. From what

she's told me, I *think* I've gleaned some of the differences, but I'm not sure.

In case it's helpful, here's some of what I understand--bi-polars have true

'manic' phases where they are up all night and hyper-active, hyper-sexual, hyper

everything. Then, when they have downs, they are true depressive downs, they are

*truly* helpless and not just feigning helpless in a waify way to get attention.

Their mood swings are not based on abandonment or splitting black the person; a

person can be split white for a lifetime with a bi-polar. That being said, the

bi-polar mother that I know in particular does seem a lot like a

narcissist--everything is all about her, all the time; she did parentify and

commit covert incest with her child, and her child is severely co-dependent.

What I don't know is whether she did this out of need to harm the child, which

is what bpds and npds do, or if she just let the child 'take care' of her

emotionally because she truly needed it; and I don't know if her 'all about me'

thing was npd or just drama-queen intensity level.

I'm sure others will have input, too.

Best wishes,

Charlie

>

> Can anyone tell me some factual information about how to distinguish between

>bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder? Do they have the same

>symptomatology or different? If different, what is different? Is borderline a

>form of bipolar disorder? Vice versa?

>

> Also, isn't narcissism prevalent in both bipolar and borderline disorders?

>

> I'm really curious and have a family member that I think might have been

>misdiagnosed by the psychiatrist. If that is true, then wouldn't it follow that

>the treatment won't work because she is being treated for the wrong thing?

>Doesn't the treatment plan follow the correct diagnosis?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi TP,

Those are great questions; the behaviors of the various mental illnesses can

overlap, so it is confusing to figure out what's really going on with any given

individual. Only a psychiatrist can diagnose mental illness, but I think that

knowledge is power, and have found reading about the various pds and mood

disorders and educating myself about them has been very helpful to my own growth

and healing.

You can read online at Wikipedia parts of the " Diagnostic and Statistical

Manual, edition IV " which is what the American Psychiatric Association uses to

categorize and define mental illnesses. And there are many books out now about

borderline pd that you might find helpful, like, " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " , and " Stop Walking On Eggshells " .

This is the main difference between bipolar disorder and borderline pd, from my

point of view:

Currently, bipolar disorder is classified as an " Axis I " mental illness in the

DSM-IV. Axis I disorders respond well to talk therapy and drug therapy.

Personality disorders are classified as " Axis II " mental illnesses. Axis II

disorders: personality disorders and mental retardation, do not respond to

either talk therapy or drug therapy.

Within Axis II, the personality disorders, there are three " clusters " . " Cluster

B " includes histrionic pd, borderline pd, narcissistic pd, and antisocial pd.

These disorders are grouped together because they share the tendency to be

dramatic, emotional, and they act out their dysfunction toward other people.

A complicating factor is that its not uncommon for an individual to have more

than one mental illness at the same time; in fact, from what I've read (if I

understand it correctly) its rare for someone to be a " pure " borderline pd. A

person with borderline pd will usually have a mood disorder (like depression or

bi-polar disorder) or another personality disorder (like narcissistic pd or

obsessive-compulsive pd) as a " co-morbidity " .

Another complicating factor is " low-functioning " vs " high-functioning " persons

with pd. " Low-functioning " means the individual has little if any control over

her/his behavior. He has difficulty holding down a steady job because of an

inability to stay calm and rational. Low functioning persons with pds tend to

get into fights with neighbors and acquaintances, get arrested, etc.

" High-functioning " people with personality disorder have more ability to control

their dysfunctional thoughts and behaviors, and can save up their anger,

frustration and negativity and only unleash it where and when its safe for them

to do so: in the privacy of their own homes, against those who can't or won't

fight back: their helpless minor children and co-dependent, enabling spouses.

So, yes, it is indeed complicated. Only an experienced psychiatrist can tease

apart the various symptoms and behaviors and put a real diagnosis to a patient.

Another complicating factor is that currently, Axis II disorders are not usually

covered for treatment by medical insurance companies, because the DSM-IV

considers them " untreatable " . So, people with borderline pd are sometimes

deliberately misdiagnosed as having " bi-polar disorder " so that their insurance

will cover psychiatric treatment (probably because the doctor believes that some

kind of treatment is better than no treatment at all.)

That's my take on it, anyway.

Happy reading, there's a lot of material you're wanting to cover.

But it is fascinating, I think.

-Annie

>

> Can anyone tell me some factual information about how to distinguish between

bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder? Do they have the same

symptomatology or different? If different, what is different? Is borderline a

form of bipolar disorder? Vice versa?

>

> Also, isn't narcissism prevalent in both bipolar and borderline disorders?

>

> I'm really curious and have a family member that I think might have been

misdiagnosed by the psychiatrist. If that is true, then wouldn't it follow that

the treatment won't work because she is being treated for the wrong thing?

Doesn't the treatment plan follow the correct diagnosis?

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, this post rocks. I hope you might consider public awareness speaking one

day for lay people who need to learn about Cluster B disorders.

> >

> > Can anyone tell me some factual information about how to distinguish between

bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder? Do they have the same

symptomatology or different? If different, what is different? Is borderline a

form of bipolar disorder? Vice versa?

> >

> > Also, isn't narcissism prevalent in both bipolar and borderline disorders?

> >

> > I'm really curious and have a family member that I think might have been

misdiagnosed by the psychiatrist. If that is true, then wouldn't it follow that

the treatment won't work because she is being treated for the wrong thing?

Doesn't the treatment plan follow the correct diagnosis?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, that is very kind of you Charlotte!

-Annie

> > >

> > > Can anyone tell me some factual information about how to distinguish

between bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder? Do they have the

same symptomatology or different? If different, what is different? Is

borderline a form of bipolar disorder? Vice versa?

> > >

> > > Also, isn't narcissism prevalent in both bipolar and borderline disorders?

> > >

> > > I'm really curious and have a family member that I think might have been

misdiagnosed by the psychiatrist. If that is true, then wouldn't it follow that

the treatment won't work because she is being treated for the wrong thing?

Doesn't the treatment plan follow the correct diagnosis?

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, thank you for this thought-provoking answer.  I will continue

researching.  Some of the disorders seem to have hairline differences and

others

big ones.  I thought it was probable that there would be combinations.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sun, October 17, 2010 4:38:09 PM

Subject: Re: How to distinguish between bipolar disorder and

borderline personality disorder

 

Hi TP,

Those are great questions; the behaviors of the various mental illnesses can

overlap, so it is confusing to figure out what's really going on with any given

individual. Only a psychiatrist can diagnose mental illness, but I think that

knowledge is power, and have found reading about the various pds and mood

disorders and educating myself about them has been very helpful to my own growth

and healing.

You can read online at Wikipedia parts of the " Diagnostic and Statistical

Manual, edition IV " which is what the American Psychiatric Association uses to

categorize and define mental illnesses. And there are many books out now about

borderline pd that you might find helpful, like, " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " , and " Stop Walking On Eggshells " .

This is the main difference between bipolar disorder and borderline pd, from my

point of view:

Currently, bipolar disorder is classified as an " Axis I " mental illness in the

DSM-IV. Axis I disorders respond well to talk therapy and drug therapy.

Personality disorders are classified as " Axis II " mental illnesses. Axis II

disorders: personality disorders and mental retardation, do not respond to

either talk therapy or drug therapy.

Within Axis II, the personality disorders, there are three " clusters " . " Cluster

B " includes histrionic pd, borderline pd, narcissistic pd, and antisocial pd.

These disorders are grouped together because they share the tendency to be

dramatic, emotional, and they act out their dysfunction toward other people.

A complicating factor is that its not uncommon for an individual to have more

than one mental illness at the same time; in fact, from what I've read (if I

understand it correctly) its rare for someone to be a " pure " borderline pd. A

person with borderline pd will usually have a mood disorder (like depression or

bi-polar disorder) or another personality disorder (like narcissistic pd or

obsessive-compulsive pd) as a " co-morbidity " .

Another complicating factor is " low-functioning " vs " high-functioning " persons

with pd. " Low-functioning " means the individual has little if any control over

her/his behavior. He has difficulty holding down a steady job because of an

inability to stay calm and rational. Low functioning persons with pds tend to

get into fights with neighbors and acquaintances, get arrested, etc.

" High-functioning " people with personality disorder have more ability to control

their dysfunctional thoughts and behaviors, and can save up their anger,

frustration and negativity and only unleash it where and when its safe for them

to do so: in the privacy of their own homes, against those who can't or won't

fight back: their helpless minor children and co-dependent, enabling spouses.

So, yes, it is indeed complicated. Only an experienced psychiatrist can tease

apart the various symptoms and behaviors and put a real diagnosis to a patient.

Another complicating factor is that currently, Axis II disorders are not usually

covered for treatment by medical insurance companies, because the DSM-IV

considers them " untreatable " . So, people with borderline pd are sometimes

deliberately misdiagnosed as having " bi-polar disorder " so that their insurance

will cover psychiatric treatment (probably because the doctor believes that some

kind of treatment is better than no treatment at all.)

That's my take on it, anyway.

Happy reading, there's a lot of material you're wanting to cover.

But it is fascinating, I think.

-Annie

>

> Can anyone tell me some factual information about how to distinguish between

>bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder? Do they have the same

>symptomatology or different? If different, what is different? Is borderline a

>form of bipolar disorder? Vice versa?

>

> Also, isn't narcissism prevalent in both bipolar and borderline disorders?

>

> I'm really curious and have a family member that I think might have been

>misdiagnosed by the psychiatrist. If that is true, then wouldn't it follow that

>the treatment won't work because she is being treated for the wrong thing?

>Doesn't the treatment plan follow the correct diagnosis?

>

[Guest guest]

Having dealt with both BPD and bipolar up close and personal now, I can tell you

that they are indeed very different.

A bipolar can experience moods that *look* something similar to the waify,

absolutely-no-self-esteem-whatsoever depressions my nada used to have, and when

on a " high " the bipolar can act BP-ish in that they can be snappy and churlish,

and on a very short fuse.

But on closer look with the bipolar it's all related to brain function and

" processing speed. " Bipolar has a lot in common with ADD. When my great aunt

is on a bipolar tear, her little mind can't stay on one topic any longer than a

bird can stay on one twig, she is talking a mile a minute, and sometimes not

appropriately reflective about what she says. But it's because her mind is

racing and she just can't pay attention to any one thing for too long. And

little things can seem very irritating to her. When she is on a " down, " she can

seem almost catatonic. But it's not because " so-and-so looked at me wrong,

ignored me, or wasn't friendly and now I feel horrible about myself because I

need to be validated every single little second to feel decent at all and I

wasn't. " (<----NADA!!!) It's just because her thought processes have slowed

down to the approximate speed of molasses crawling uphill in the winter time.

I don't know if this helps any...

--.

*this post has been trimmed*