Guest guest Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 Thanks,Girlscout Yeah,that ceremony would have been good fun if it had been the way you reframed it! Actually,the mayor's staff did take a photo of us " prize winners " but it mysteriously disappeared; I think there was a blurb in the town newspaper about the ceremony and that was never saved. That's great you really enjoy working with those kids.I'm sure they enjoy having you there,too.I can imagine you must be alot of fun > > -----I hate your parents, too!!!!!! Wow, I wish I could go back in > time and go with you to that presentation. i would have taken a ton of > pictures, called the local newspaper, put you in the front row. wow! > > You know,now I work with kids a lot and I ALWAYS make a huge deal out of the > stuff the do. . . They are jerks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 Oh wow,Annie,you brought up so many really excellent points in your post! It *is* psychological cannibalism to be sure. What you wrote about the *uniqueness of a PD parent's targeted behavior* should be required reading for every judge in the nation who makes determinations in parental rights termination cases.That is most definitely and undeniably a crucial factor of the illness when a *parent* is involved.Cluster B types see everyone as a means to their own ends anyway; as mere objects for their own use like appliances--but how much more so when the " object " is owned outright by them: their own child.It seems to me that anyone who would be responsible for protecting a child would overlook the essential dynamic of *dangerous in particular* at the child's true peril. In another parental right's termination hearing in Oregon the judge opted to restore custody to the BPD bio mother because she had been " successful " babysitting *other people's children*.When you think about it in terms of your insight here,that ruling is just the essence of sheer ignorance.It is even a totally moot point or simply irrelevant to how that BPD mother would in fact parent her own child.How a BPD behaves with children in general has *nothing* to do in fact,no bearing whatsoever upon,how she would treat her own kids.The concept of a BPD " mother " viewing her offspring as mere possessions/appendages to use at her whim is central to understanding why such a " mother " *will* be abusive.Or just *is* abusive since such an attitude of psychological cannibalism is completely inimical to the child's well being--and unless the BPD/Cluster B is intensively counseled,*targeted danger* to their child is inevitable. At any rate I personally believe that most of these people are too mentally ill to be raising children,even with counseling.There is too much risk that they will " learn " how to behave towards the counselor while continuing to commit abuse in private. > > Wow. It seems to me that a key behavior with the bpd mother is that its (virtually) exclusively her own children and her own grandchildren who are in danger of emotional and physical abuse or neglect from her. > > The uniqueness of this targeted behavior is hard to comprehend. If a person is *dangerous*, that means dangerous to everyone, right? But no, this particular mental illness in combination with this unique mother-child relationship has a unique potential for damage. > (The most similar thing I can think of is that a schoolyard bully will tend to target one victim at a time, and the bully waits for the victim to be alone before the bully & the bully's gang attacks.) > > The bpd/npd/aspd mother can appear angelic to other people's children because they ARE " other " . For the children of other people, nada is performing her role as the ideal woman or the ideal teacher because she gets public recognition and praise for that. > > The bpd/npd/aspd mother can appear angelic toward her own children, in public, as well. > > Why does this happen? These are just my theories, so, take into account that this is just my personal opinion. > > Nada may actively resent having had children of her own. Perhaps she truly didn't want to have kids but felt cultural, familial or marital pressure to do so. > > Or perhaps nada had an unrealistic, perfectionistic, childish fantasy of what motherhood was supposed to be like, and the reality fell far short of that. The day-to-day acts of parenting are not glamorous, there are no cameras, there is no public praise, so nada now feels used, unappreciated, and actively resents having to care for those she gave birth to who (in nada's opinion) never show her enough gratitude or appreciation for her sacrifices. > > Unless nada is psychotic, she comprehends that she can't just dump her kids somewhere and be rid of them. She is stuck with them. What is she getting out of parenthood? Not enough. Not *nearly* enough to warrant and reward her efforts sufficiently. > > So nada's children tend to be assigned roles that suit nada's needs: > > 1. Her appendage (you don't thank your arm for lifting a cup to your lips) or her possession (you don't thank your shoes for transporting you to the store.) I think this would fall into " The Forgotten Child " category. > > 2. Her idealized, perfect reflection; the bearer of all her own perceived good traits. This is the " Golden Child " who can do no wrong. Being over-indulged, pampered, and rescued/protected from any natural consequences for bad behavior infantilizes the child, making him or her emotionally dependent on mommy, possibly for life, and can turn this child/adult into a hideous, narcissistic bully. > > 3. The scapegoat. The child on whom nada chooses to project all her own self-loathing, all her own bad, unwanted traits. This child deserves to be alternately punished and ignored, according to nada. Nada even feels justified and entitled to do this. This poor, bewildered all-bad child becomes nada's emotional or even physical punching bag and can literally be starved to death for attention and approval. > > 4. Some other person, other than nada. This child is cast in the role of nada's parent: either a beloved parent or a hated parent, or nada's rescuer. This child can become nada's substitute spouse, perhaps, or nada's bestest best friend, nada's sibling, or nada's/fada's whore. Anyone *except* the unique, individual human being that the child actually is. > > The danger is really only to the bpd mother's own children, or grandchildren: her possessions, hers, to indulge or punish or ignore or exploit as she wishes, as she is entitled to. > > That's why this is such a damnably difficult concept to get across to other people. I get frustrated because even *other support groups* just don't seem get this, that the bpd/npd/aspd mother can be a UNIQUE danger to her own children and her own grandchildren. > > The idea that a human mother will metaphorically eat her own young is just too shocking and reprehensible, I guess, but that seems to me to be what happens when a mother (in particular, as the primary caregiver) has undiagnosed and untreated Cluster B disorder(s). > > It is the psychological equivalent of human cannibalism. > > -Annie > > PS: > I stopped even asking my nada for help with homework by the end of 2nd grade. She would particularly make fun of me, shame me and humiliate me for not understanding math (her strong subject), and she'd become enraged with me if she couldn't explain a concept to me in a way I could get it. ( " You stupid idiot " was her favorite.) So like you, I had to struggle on my own. I remember Dad helping me once, when I was in 5th grade, I believe. 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Guest guest Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 Thanks, . The concept that a mother can be sweet and nurturing to other people's children, and hostile, resentful, punitive, negligent or exploitative toward her own children (or her own grandchildren, or her step-children for that matter) is so incomprehensible to most people that it must seem like the stuff of fairy-tale fantasy to them. ( " You mean literally, like a " Wicked Witch " come to life?! C'mon, you've got to be kidding me! " ) Its exactly the same dynamic as sociopathy (aka psychopathy): the ability to lead a double life. Like " The Sociopath Next Door " , this individual is the seemingly good, community-oriented, responsible citizen by day who also just happens to be a secret pedophile, or a serial killer, or a violent, emotionally abusive or completely cold and rejecting/negligent spouse/parent by night, in private, behind closed doors. If I'm understanding the material I've read correctly, normal, average people have no means of detecting psychopathic behavior, because an intelligent, high-functioning, somewhat attractive or charming psychopath can so easily pass as a regular human being. So, normal, average people simply can't believe that a mother who is an award-winning teacher of the year, or a beloved coach, a credit to her community/church/neighborhood/family, and a delightful individual in public, is neglecting or abusing or emotionally torturing her own child just to but not over the point of detectability, and has methodically set about discrediting the child's believability ahead of time, to cover herself. The fact that the Cluster B mother seems often to target *just one* of her own children for abuse or neglect compounds the problem exponentially. The targeted child is in a completely no-win situation. If we can get to a point in our societal evolution where children have free and unfettered, private access to actual lawyers who are mandated by the government to represent the child's interests as though the child has the same right to legal representation as an adult, then, that would be real progress, sez I. -Annie > > Oh wow,Annie,you brought up so many really excellent points in your post! It *is* psychological cannibalism to be sure. > > What you wrote about the *uniqueness of a PD parent's targeted behavior* should be required reading for every judge in the nation who makes determinations in parental rights termination cases.That is most definitely and undeniably a crucial factor of the illness when a *parent* is involved.Cluster B types see everyone as a means to their own ends anyway; as mere objects for their own use like appliances--but how much more so when the " object " is owned outright by them: their own child.It seems to me that anyone who would be responsible for protecting a child would overlook the essential dynamic of *dangerous in particular* at the child's true peril. > > In another parental right's termination hearing in Oregon the judge opted to restore custody to the BPD bio mother because she had been " successful " babysitting *other people's children*.When you think about it in terms of your insight here,that ruling is just the essence of sheer ignorance.It is even a totally moot point or simply irrelevant to how that BPD mother would in fact parent her own child.How a BPD behaves with children in general has *nothing* to do in fact,no bearing whatsoever upon,how she would treat her own kids.The concept of a BPD " mother " viewing her offspring as mere possessions/appendages to use at her whim is central to understanding why such a " mother " *will* be abusive.Or just *is* abusive since such an attitude of psychological cannibalism is completely inimical to the child's well being--and unless the BPD/Cluster B is intensively counseled,*targeted danger* to their child is inevitable. > > At any rate I personally believe that most of these people are too mentally ill to be raising children,even with counseling.There is too much risk that they will " learn " how to behave towards the counselor while continuing to commit abuse in private. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 " When we got home fada griped that he had missed some show on tv " for that > stupid thing " .Meaning the ceremony or me,I couldn't tell but it felt like > the same thing. " OMG. I can't believe anyone would say such a thing to any child, let alone his/her own. ((((())))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Awesome post Annie...just responding to this one part in particular " Or perhaps nada had an unrealistic, perfectionistic, childish fantasy of what motherhood was supposed to be like, and the reality fell far short of that. The day-to-day acts of parenting are not glamorous, there are no cameras, there is no public praise, so nada now feels used, unappreciated, and actively resents having to care for those she gave birth to who (in nada's opinion) never show her enough gratitude or appreciation for her sacrifices. " My " selfishness and ingratitude " was the most enraging trait I had growing up for my nada. Her greatest anger was reserved for this and those words were hurled at me like knives with devastating emotional force. To be selfish was to be unloved, unwanted, irredeemable and I had to immediately stop it and make up for it so that we could go back to our pretend loving relationship. Your explanation above makes a lot of sense - that for her the effort and expense of parenting was not given voluntarily or freely. Something imposed by circumstance and society which she had to follow through on so that child (me) better damn well provide a good return on her investment. Yes indeed, I believe you are right that BPD mothers are a very *particular* danger to their children above all others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Thanks . I think that's the dynamic that was going on with my nada. She had zero interest in babies or children at all before marriage, she even said so. She'd never even taken care of a pet before she had me. My nada seems to have had that " you're supposed to marry and have children " mind-set, but because she had no interest or experience with caring for children, she had incredibly unrealistic and fantasy-like expectations about what motherhood would be like. On top of that, from the fragments of statements and admissions she's made over the years, it also seems that she had post-partum depression or possibly even post-partum psychosis, and my dad ended up having to ask his mother (whom my nada didn't like) to come stay with them for a few weeks (months?) after I was born to help nada and show her how to take care of her newborn. Nada's parents had strangely taken it into their heads to go on an extended vacation around the time of the birth of their first grandchild (me.) I've always wondered about that, but it makes sense if I factor in my theory that my nada was the bully in her foo and her parents couldn't handle being around her under normal conditions, let alone her being pregnant. And I wanted to share with you that " selfish ingrate " was what I was called very frequently, also. In earlier posts I ruminated that my nada seemed to view Sister and me as something like investment instruments that didn't pay off for her in the spectacular way she expected us to, so we were perpetual disappointments to her. -Annie > > Awesome post Annie...just responding to this one part in particular > > " Or perhaps nada had an unrealistic, perfectionistic, childish fantasy of what > motherhood was supposed to be like, and the reality fell far short of that. The > day-to-day acts of parenting are not glamorous, there are no cameras, there is > no public praise, so nada now feels used, unappreciated, and actively resents > having to care for those she gave birth to who (in nada's opinion) never show > her enough gratitude or appreciation for her sacrifices. " > > My " selfishness and ingratitude " was the most enraging trait I had growing up for my nada. Her greatest anger was reserved for this and those words were hurled at me like knives with devastating emotional force. To be selfish was to be unloved, unwanted, irredeemable and I had to immediately stop it and make up for it so that we could go back to our pretend loving relationship. Your explanation above makes a lot of sense - that for her the effort and expense of parenting was not given voluntarily or freely. Something imposed by circumstance and society which she had to follow through on so that child (me) better damn well provide a good return on her investment. Yes indeed, I believe you are right that BPD mothers are a very *particular* danger to their children above all others. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2010 Report Share Posted November 4, 2010 Tre,    Did you freeze up or, maybe, did you learn a skill? Your mom, as a BP, made a dig. It's a trap. It's bait. It's how they get you.. and you, amazingly and beautifully, did not get snared by the trap. Try to see it as bait.. it's how BP starts trouble.. they love it. don't feed into it. I think you did the right thing. I'm no mom but a dig is a dig and I would have wanted to rip her throat out. Can be talking here your outlet? Can telling us that it hurt you be ok enough for you to be ok? You can tell her it bothered you. It may start a fight that you will never win. Just some thoughts..  ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Sun, October 24, 2010 10:23:41 PM Subject: Managing nada  HI I just deleted a really long post. I really just have a question and don't want to write a novel for the background info. Shorter version: I am LC with nada. I manage boundaries. I tell her when she says something that is not ok. This has been working for years. BUT. Today she called my 18 month old daughter's dress ugly. (It's a flowery toddler dress, how ugly could it be? Really!) I froze up and felt angry inside. I didn't say anything. I can't believe I did this. I have gotten good at defending myself when she says hurtful things to me. But this was my daughter, who I would do anything to defend and protect. And I just sat there and let the monster who tore me apart as a child start the same shit with my kid. I'm obviously beating myself up over this. My toddler has no idea what was going on, but someday (soon) she'll understand that her grandma called her dress ugly, and she'll be hurt. I don't understand how I could just sit there and not defend my daughter. I totally froze up!!!! How do I make sure that I stand up to her the next time she insults my kid??? tre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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