Re: Psychiatry: A Definition

[Guest guest]

This is pretty well where I came in.

Without referring to the other disorders, I am amazed that a

qualified

psychiatrist could ever write this about schizophrenia - unless he'd

gone psychotic himself. I can scarcely believe that anyone can deny

the reality of schizophrenia who has met anyone with anything other

than the mildest of cases.

P.

> Psychiatry: 1. Conflicts without adversaries. 2. An ostensibly

> medical discipline whose subject matter is neither minds nor mental

> diseases, but lies. These lies begin with the names of the

> participants in the transaction--the designation of one party

> as 'patient' even though he is not ill, and of the other

> as 'therapist' even though he is not treating any illness; they

> continue with the lies that comprise the subject matter of the

> discipline--the psychiatric 'diagnoses', 'prognoses',

> and 'treatments' and they end with the lies that, like shadows,

> follow ex-mental patients through the rest of their lives--the

> records of denigrations called 'depression', schizophrenia', or

> whatnot, and of imprisonments called 'hospitalization'. If we

wished

> to give psychiatry an honest name, we could call it

'mendacitology',

> or the study and practice of lies.

>

> Dr. S. Szasz

> The Untamed Tongue

[Guest guest]

Szaz was the co-founder of " Citizens Committee on Human Rights " ,

along with the Church of Scientology, according to the CCHR website.

(http://www.cchr.org/wicchr.htm)

Of course, the Church of Scientology wants to eradicate

psychiatry. There will be no need for any mental health treatments

after Scientology " clears the planet, " meaning that each and every

one of us will have spent more than a quarter million bucks to

eradicate the souls of dead space aliens who were massacred 75

million years ago by the great space emporer Xenu and now cling to

our bodies.

> > Psychiatry: 1. Conflicts without adversaries. 2. An ostensibly

> > medical discipline whose subject matter is neither minds nor

mental

> > diseases, but lies. These lies begin with the names of the

> > participants in the transaction--the designation of one party

> > as 'patient' even though he is not ill, and of the other

> > as 'therapist' even though he is not treating any illness; they

> > continue with the lies that comprise the subject matter of the

> > discipline--the psychiatric 'diagnoses', 'prognoses',

> > and 'treatments' and they end with the lies that, like shadows,

> > follow ex-mental patients through the rest of their lives--the

> > records of denigrations called 'depression', schizophrenia', or

> > whatnot, and of imprisonments called 'hospitalization'. If we

> wished

> > to give psychiatry an honest name, we could call it

> 'mendacitology',

> > or the study and practice of lies.

> >

> > Dr. S. Szasz

> > The Untamed Tongue

[Guest guest]

Pete, Tommy: I think any disorder where a person is hallucinating

requires treatment. The main ones I am aware of are schizophrenia and

bipolar.

I think, too, that if a person chooses not to medicate, and can build

as independent a life as possible around that kind of experience,

without being a danger to themselves or others, they should be

allowed

to do so. I know a guy with schizophrenia who said he was worse on

medication than off. He and I were involved in a program that did

wilderness outings for adults with " severe and persistent " mental

illness. That's how he stayed sane, basically, living in the woods as

much as possible. I don't know what Mike is doing now, that program

underwent some changes due to lack of funding.

There is a group called MadNation, they advocate for the rights of

mentally ill people to determine their own course of treatment.

http://www.madnation.org/

You want to see something scary? In Minnesota, we jail the mentally

ill. Progressive, huh?

http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/mentally_ill/index.html

OK, I've gone far enough.

judith

> > Psychiatry: 1. Conflicts without adversaries. 2. An ostensibly

> > medical discipline whose subject matter is neither minds nor

mental

> > diseases, but lies. These lies begin with the names of the

> > participants in the transaction--the designation of one party

> > as 'patient' even though he is not ill, and of the other

> > as 'therapist' even though he is not treating any illness; they

> > continue with the lies that comprise the subject matter of the

> > discipline--the psychiatric 'diagnoses', 'prognoses',

> > and 'treatments' and they end with the lies that, like shadows,

> > follow ex-mental patients through the rest of their lives--the

> > records of denigrations called 'depression', schizophrenia', or

> > whatnot, and of imprisonments called 'hospitalization'. If we

> wished

> > to give psychiatry an honest name, we could call it

> 'mendacitology',

> > or the study and practice of lies.

> >

> > Dr. S. Szasz

> > The Untamed Tongue

[Guest guest]

SZasz is the person I learnt about in my abnormal Psychology module

of ny degree in 1980s . There was a lot of anti- psychiatry stuff being

written at that time , also RD Laing etc . I had not heard of him for a very

long time

[Guest guest]

That wast in the late sixties. I don't suppose Szasz had the support

that he has now. Are you trying to make some association with the

dead space alliens and Szasz? What a horrible cheap shot at a man

who

has spent a career exposing the horrors of the torture chamber known

as institutional psychiatry.

Tommy

> > > Psychiatry: 1. Conflicts without adversaries. 2. An ostensibly

> > > medical discipline whose subject matter is neither minds nor

> mental

> > > diseases, but lies. These lies begin with the names of the

> > > participants in the transaction--the designation of one party

> > > as 'patient' even though he is not ill, and of the other

> > > as 'therapist' even though he is not treating any illness; they

> > > continue with the lies that comprise the subject matter of the

> > > discipline--the psychiatric 'diagnoses', 'prognoses',

> > > and 'treatments' and they end with the lies that, like shadows,

> > > follow ex-mental patients through the rest of their lives--the

> > > records of denigrations called 'depression', schizophrenia', or

> > > whatnot, and of imprisonments called 'hospitalization'. If we

> > wished

> > > to give psychiatry an honest name, we could call it

> > 'mendacitology',

> > > or the study and practice of lies.

> > >

> > > Dr. S. Szasz

> > > The Untamed Tongue

[Guest guest]

Tommy --

I'm not making an association between Szaz and Scientology. He

did that himself, and is still prominently featured as a founder of

CCHR on the organization's website.

Res ipsa loquitur.

--Bob

P.S. Did you know Scientology teaches the mentally ill, and others

who fall below a certain level on L. Ron Hubbard's emotional " tone

scale, " should be " sisposed of quietly and without sorrow " ? (Hubbard

estimated that's twenty percent of the population).

-- In 12-step-freeegroups, " Tommy Perkins " <perkinstommy@h...>

wrote:

> That wast in the late sixties. I don't suppose Szasz had the

support

> that he has now. Are you trying to make some association with the

> dead space alliens and Szasz? What a horrible cheap shot at a man

> who

> has spent a career exposing the horrors of the torture chamber

known

> as institutional psychiatry.

>

> Tommy

>

>

>

>

> > > > Psychiatry: 1. Conflicts without adversaries. 2. An

ostensibly

> > > > medical discipline whose subject matter is neither minds nor

> > mental

> > > > diseases, but lies. These lies begin with the names of the

> > > > participants in the transaction--the designation of one party

> > > > as 'patient' even though he is not ill, and of the other

> > > > as 'therapist' even though he is not treating any illness;

they

> > > > continue with the lies that comprise the subject matter of

the

> > > > discipline--the psychiatric 'diagnoses', 'prognoses',

> > > > and 'treatments' and they end with the lies that, like

shadows,

> > > > follow ex-mental patients through the rest of their lives--

the

> > > > records of denigrations called 'depression', schizophrenia',

or

> > > > whatnot, and of imprisonments called 'hospitalization'. If

we

> > > wished

> > > > to give psychiatry an honest name, we could call it

> > > 'mendacitology',

> > > > or the study and practice of lies.

> > > >

> > > > Dr. S. Szasz

> > > > The Untamed Tongue

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Tell me why.

/message/12-step-free/10596

Tommy

> > > > > Psychiatry: 1. Conflicts without adversaries. 2. An

> ostensibly

> > > > > medical discipline whose subject matter is neither minds

nor

> > > mental

> > > > > diseases, but lies. These lies begin with the names of the

> > > > > participants in the transaction--the designation of one

party

> > > > > as 'patient' even though he is not ill, and of the other

> > > > > as 'therapist' even though he is not treating any illness;

> they

> > > > > continue with the lies that comprise the subject matter of

> the

> > > > > discipline--the psychiatric 'diagnoses', 'prognoses',

> > > > > and 'treatments' and they end with the lies that, like

> shadows,

> > > > > follow ex-mental patients through the rest of their lives--

> the

> > > > > records of denigrations called 'depression',

schizophrenia',

> or

> > > > > whatnot, and of imprisonments called 'hospitalization'. If

> we

> > > > wished

> > > > > to give psychiatry an honest name, we could call it

> > > > 'mendacitology',

> > > > > or the study and practice of lies.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dr. S. Szasz

> > > > > The Untamed Tongue

[Guest guest]

> This is pretty well where I came in.

>

> Without referring to the other disorders, I am amazed that a

> qualified

> psychiatrist could ever write this about schizophrenia - unless

he'd

> gone psychotic himself. I can scarcely believe that anyone can deny

> the reality of schizophrenia who has met anyone with anything other

> than the mildest of cases.

>

> P.

>

The following comes from the Reason interview which I posted a few

weeks back:

Reason: The psychiatrist E. Fuller Torrey has written that " studies

using techniques such

as magnetic resonance imaging and positron

emission

tomography scans have proved

that schizophrenia and manic depressive illness

are

physical disorders of the brain in

exactly the same way as Parkinson's disease or

multiple sclerosis. " Is that true? If not,

what do these studies actually show?

Szasz: Most educated people, if they think about

it, know how real disease is

diagnosed. Take anemia. If a person comes in and

says he is tired, he has no energy,

and he looks very pale, the physician may think he

is anemic. But the diagnosis is not

made until there is a finding in the laboratory

that he has a diminished blood count, a

diminished hemoglobin level. Conversely, a

laboratory technician can blindly make a

diagnosis of anemia simply on the basis of vials

of

blood submitted to him or

her--without having any idea of whose blood it is.

As soon as that can be done with

schizophrenia, it will be a brain disease, exactly

as neurosyphilis was recognized as a

brain disease.

Reason: In other words, you would need to be able

to look at the scan and say, " This

is a schizophrenic. "

Szasz: Or this is not a schizophrenic....My

skepticism is infinitely high, because I actually

lived through a time when a man got the Nobel

Prize

for discovering that excessively

activated electrical circuits in the frontal lobe

cause schizophrenia. The cure for that was

lobotomy. Or consider electric shock treatment:

The

rationale was that epileptics don't

get schizophrenia, which was complete nonsense.

There has been a long series of claims

like these.

And the idea of schizophrenia as a brain disease

negates the justification for involuntary

treatment. The diseases that Torrey

mentions--Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis--can under

no circumstances be legally treated without the

consent of the patient. This is really just

propaganda for coercion. It does not stand the

least scrutiny. But you see, they don't

have to be right; they have power.

Reason: Is it possible that some of the people who

are now diagnosed as

schizophrenics do in fact have some kind of

neurological defect?

Szasz: Absolutely.

Reason: If that could be demonstrated, would it

change your view of mental illness?

Szasz: No, because they would then simply have a

disease with which they would have

to live, just like Hawking has to live

with

amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. In other

words, having a disease does not define everything

that you do.

Reason: But people with certain kinds of brain

diseases--Alzheimer's, for

example--might reach a point where they're no

longer able to take care of themselves,

and they could legally be declared incompetent.

Should that same sort of procedure be

possible with some of the people now diagnosed as

schizophrenics, if they do in fact

have a brain disease?

Szasz: In principle, that should be possible, but

the judgment of whether you can or

cannot take care of yourself ought to be a

common-sense, empirical one, not an

esoteric, psychiatric one. Also, the old Roman

principle of cui bono should be the

guiding light. Charges of incompetence used to be

brought by greedy children against

their rich, elderly parents--especially if the

father, say, wanted to marry a young woman.

The charge is also brought after someone dies, to

contest the person's last will. So here

the issue of competence is really tied to the

motives of the person who is raising the

question.

[Guest guest]

Hi judith

Pressure of time, and a wish not to continue to distract 12sf with

offtopic issues, means I cannot comment much on this, however, I will

say that I am glad you raise the issue of the impriosnment of the

mentlly ill. If there is no concept of mental illness, then

psychotic ppl must suffer the full penalty of any antisocial behavior

they show - which in many cases wuil mean imprisonment. " Reality

Therapy " and 12-step admirer Glasser talked abt a psychiatric program

where putting cuffs on patients he reported approvingly as indicating

that " violence would not be tolerated " . This is the logical

conclusion of the anti-psychiatry view - the tretament of the thought

disordered will go back 200 yrs to impriosnment nand restraints - all

in the name of their human rights!

P.

> > > Psychiatry: 1. Conflicts without adversaries. 2. An ostensibly

> > > medical discipline whose subject matter is neither minds nor

> mental

> > > diseases, but lies. These lies begin with the names of the

> > > participants in the transaction--the designation of one party

> > > as 'patient' even though he is not ill, and of the other

> > > as 'therapist' even though he is not treating any illness; they

> > > continue with the lies that comprise the subject matter of the

> > > discipline--the psychiatric 'diagnoses', 'prognoses',

> > > and 'treatments' and they end with the lies that, like shadows,

> > > follow ex-mental patients through the rest of their lives--the

> > > records of denigrations called 'depression', schizophrenia', or

> > > whatnot, and of imprisonments called 'hospitalization'. If we

> > wished

> > > to give psychiatry an honest name, we could call it

> > 'mendacitology',

> > > or the study and practice of lies.

> > >

> > > Dr. S. Szasz

> > > The Untamed Tongue