Re: how to forgive these clueless friends?

[Guest guest]

,I had to think about this one a bit because there have definitely been

times when I've felt that someone has so thoroughly invalidated the most painful

things in my life that I simply no longer feel close to them.As in,I feel

profoundly alienated by the invalidation and in turn by the person.I think

that's a very natural response.

If the relationship is important to me I try to ascertain to what degree

the invalidation was motivated by basic good will--like did they have my best

interests at heart or simply didn't understand why it hurts so much and/or does

this person generally take my best interests into account and just flubbed this

one? Or was the invalidation motivated more by a desire on the part of the other

person to remain indifferent or to blow off my pain? And if I suspect the

latter,is this a pattern with this person I hadn't wanted to acknowledge before

this particular invalidation occurred? Or was the incident of not caring a one

off/this person has " been there " for me emotionally in other instances,but for

reasons of their own which have nothing to do fundamentally with the validity of

my pain,they are unable to deal with this one thing I have shared?

Sometimes invalidation is a red flag,sometimes it isn't--and yes it's hard

sometimes to tell the difference!

Two examples I can think of are:

--Red flag invalidation: guy I'm dating who knows I was raped lends me a

video of a movie I had expresed interest in seeing but doesn't warn me that

there is a segment in the movie about a child being raped.I watch the movie

alone at home and feel like I've been punched in the gut when I see that part of

the movie; I feel completely invalidated and unheard and very hurt that he

seemed not to realize that I needed to be forewarned and perhaps advised that I

might not enjoy the movie after all.I thought he *knew* what a major trauma that

had been for me because we had discussed this at length previously.When I asked

him why he hadn't warned me,he said, " Well,yes,I remembered you had that

experience and I thought you'd appreciate how the grandmother goes after the

rapist with a shotgun... "

Basic goodwill factor: low.Because what he was really saying was: I don't

want to believe that your experience of being raped would affect our

relationship,so I didn't warn you about that part of the movie/I didn't want to

deal with that being an issue for you/I wanted you to deal with it on your own

by feeling vicariously vindicated by this fictional rapist's ass kicking

grandmother/Etc...

And I had to admit to myself after that: He hadn't actually been very

empathetically tuned in to that particular trauma before then even though we had

discussed it,at least not in the way I needed him to be.

Could I disregard that in light of what I did like about him? No.It

impacted too much on my feelings of trust--and that he hadn't even thought to

warn me about those scenes in the movie *was* an issue for me that I couldn't

overlook--he wanted me to put that trauma aside for *him*,for it to be a non

issue for the sake of *his* comfort level.

--Non red flag invalidation: A couple of years ago I had a coworker who

was making my job difficult because she felt threatened by me,in ways both petty

(but cumulatively extremely annoying) and serious (as in calling my competence

into question).Another coworker I'll call Tree was one of my most loyal

supporters.She kept my spirits up while the other coworker was pulling her

crap,understandingly listened to me vent about it times when it was getting to

be too much,and never stabbed me in the back.But when I shared with her that the

coworker's campaign against me was causing me significant distress because it

reminded me of how my mother had treated me,she told me, " Oh,you know,you really

shouldn't let it get under your skin so much. "

Ouch.That hurt--because I had opened up and tried to communicate to her

just how much and *why* it was bothering me.And at that point it felt like she

was implying that I was the one who was making it into something more than it

needed to be and that I was inflicting suffering upon myself by making that

association.

But when I later tried to explain to her that,for me,this wasn't the

case,she said, " You have so much going for you here and honestly you're so much

better than her at this job that someday soon you're going to surpass her no

matter what she says or does that I just think it's a shame you're focusing on

whatever happened in your past--I mean,it would be a damned shame if you let

that hold you back. "

I felt misunderstood.It was clear she didn't get the fact that I was

being triggered nor had she gotten what it meant to me that this coworker was

behaving like my nada.Or truly understood how my nada had damaged me.But she was

speaking to me with an attitude of basic good will and positive regard for

me,which was also the general mutual tone of our relationship,so I decided to

let that one misunderstanding slide.It just wasn't something she was going to

understand but there was still much that was validating about our friendship in

other ways that I didn't want to write her off even though she did not

understand a core issue that caused me deep enduring pain.But she had my best

interests at heart and had only unintentionally invalidated me.

I don't know if that's helpful but I do understand that it's tricky to

sort out--and it's just hard to get validation for our nada/abuse issues and it

does hurt.

>

> Walked, a question for you...how do you forgive them? A problem I've had

throughout my life, a flea perhaps, is that I cannot forgive " friends " who do

what you describe. I often end the friendship or it is never the same for me

again. This has led me to isolate more and more and to just not even try to

tell people things that I know if they respond uncaringly I'll never forgive it.

The pain this triggers in me is just huge and probably related to the constant

invalidation and lack of understanding meted out by my nada.

>

> So how do you do it? How do you still have a genuine friendship after they've

invalidated the most painful thing in your life? I'd put those questions to

others here too if they'd like to jump in.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks , that makes a lot of sense. And can I go back in time and slap

that boyfriend for you? What the hell. I see what you are saying with both of

your examples that it's the overall tone of the relationship that matters -

whether the incident is part of a pattern or not, what the real feeling of

relationship is with the person. A boyfriend who could not understand that rape

would be a sensitive subject for you shows a profound lack of empathy and

awareness. Even if he were a good guy in other ways (but I bet the lack of

empathy showed up elsewhere) that's a huge problem in a relationship. But I

could see your coworker genuinely wanted you to succeed and believed you could -

she just couldn't understand triggers. Still I'd think that would have been a

limiter in how close you could be with her.

From this pov I still don't really regret the friendships I've ended though it

makes me sad. These were relationships that should never have become as big a

part of my life as they were to begin with because I'd ignored so many signs

that the relationships had severe limitations. But when someone invalidates

something huge it becomes impossible to ignore anymore.

Thanks,

>

> ,I had to think about this one a bit because there have definitely been

times when I've felt that someone has so thoroughly invalidated the most painful

things in my life that I simply no longer feel close to them.As in,I feel

profoundly alienated by the invalidation and in turn by the person.I think

that's a very natural response.

>

> If the relationship is important to me I try to ascertain to what

degree the invalidation was motivated by basic good will--like did they have my

best interests at heart or simply didn't understand why it hurts so much and/or

does this person generally take my best interests into account and just flubbed

this one? Or was the invalidation motivated more by a desire on the part of the

other person to remain indifferent or to blow off my pain? And if I suspect the

latter,is this a pattern with this person I hadn't wanted to acknowledge before

this particular invalidation occurred? Or was the incident of not caring a one

off/this person has " been there " for me emotionally in other instances,but for

reasons of their own which have nothing to do fundamentally with the validity of

my pain,they are unable to deal with this one thing I have shared?

>

> Sometimes invalidation is a red flag,sometimes it isn't--and yes it's

hard sometimes to tell the difference!

>

> Two examples I can think of are:

>

> --Red flag invalidation: guy I'm dating who knows I was raped lends me

a video of a movie I had expresed interest in seeing but doesn't warn me that

there is a segment in the movie about a child being raped.I watch the movie

alone at home and feel like I've been punched in the gut when I see that part of

the movie; I feel completely invalidated and unheard and very hurt that he

seemed not to realize that I needed to be forewarned and perhaps advised that I

might not enjoy the movie after all.I thought he *knew* what a major trauma that

had been for me because we had discussed this at length previously.When I asked

him why he hadn't warned me,he said, " Well,yes,I remembered you had that

experience and I thought you'd appreciate how the grandmother goes after the

rapist with a shotgun... "

>

> Basic goodwill factor: low.Because what he was really saying was: I

don't want to believe that your experience of being raped would affect our

relationship,so I didn't warn you about that part of the movie/I didn't want to

deal with that being an issue for you/I wanted you to deal with it on your own

by feeling vicariously vindicated by this fictional rapist's ass kicking

grandmother/Etc...

>

> And I had to admit to myself after that: He hadn't actually been very

empathetically tuned in to that particular trauma before then even though we had

discussed it,at least not in the way I needed him to be.

>

> Could I disregard that in light of what I did like about him? No.It

impacted too much on my feelings of trust--and that he hadn't even thought to

warn me about those scenes in the movie *was* an issue for me that I couldn't

overlook--he wanted me to put that trauma aside for *him*,for it to be a non

issue for the sake of *his* comfort level.

>

> --Non red flag invalidation: A couple of years ago I had a coworker who

was making my job difficult because she felt threatened by me,in ways both petty

(but cumulatively extremely annoying) and serious (as in calling my competence

into question).Another coworker I'll call Tree was one of my most loyal

supporters.She kept my spirits up while the other coworker was pulling her

crap,understandingly listened to me vent about it times when it was getting to

be too much,and never stabbed me in the back.But when I shared with her that the

coworker's campaign against me was causing me significant distress because it

reminded me of how my mother had treated me,she told me, " Oh,you know,you really

shouldn't let it get under your skin so much. "

>

> Ouch.That hurt--because I had opened up and tried to communicate to

her just how much and *why* it was bothering me.And at that point it felt like

she was implying that I was the one who was making it into something more than

it needed to be and that I was inflicting suffering upon myself by making that

association.

>

> But when I later tried to explain to her that,for me,this wasn't the

case,she said, " You have so much going for you here and honestly you're so much

better than her at this job that someday soon you're going to surpass her no

matter what she says or does that I just think it's a shame you're focusing on

whatever happened in your past--I mean,it would be a damned shame if you let

that hold you back. "

>

> I felt misunderstood.It was clear she didn't get the fact that I was

being triggered nor had she gotten what it meant to me that this coworker was

behaving like my nada.Or truly understood how my nada had damaged me.But she was

speaking to me with an attitude of basic good will and positive regard for

me,which was also the general mutual tone of our relationship,so I decided to

let that one misunderstanding slide.It just wasn't something she was going to

understand but there was still much that was validating about our friendship in

other ways that I didn't want to write her off even though she did not

understand a core issue that caused me deep enduring pain.But she had my best

interests at heart and had only unintentionally invalidated me.

>

> I don't know if that's helpful but I do understand that it's tricky to

sort out--and it's just hard to get validation for our nada/abuse issues and it

does hurt.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi and kayak/climber

I am just joining this group today. My God the validation is really incredible

for the craziness of BPD. So much so that I am moving back in this groups

history and eating up all your perspectives.

, your thoughtful response is really striking a chord in me. It is an

issue that I often repeat over and over with the friends I allow myself. I set

up with friends that I allow to chronically invalidate my experiences. And then

my response is to withdrawal. And their response is one of provoked criticism

that I am thereby implying they were remiss and that they are aggressively not

going to tolerate it. So therefore I have no position but they do have the

stronger basis for me needing to make amends to them for my fault in ever being

justifiably hurt and withdrawing. And if I permanently do sever ties with them

I am then isolated by their bad mouthing me to the group. It becomes mean

girls.

I constantly set myself up with best friends who are Bipolar(they are fun), ADD

( my father, sister, husband), ODD (everybody). With all the counseling I have

sought no one addresses in real steps how to not allow that these are the people

who get close to me. I am always lonely and wishing for the right kind of good

sharing friendship that I really do deserve. I think that well cared for

individuals sense my history and don't relate to me. I don't relate to them

either because I have never had what they take for granted and enjoy that

security with. I envy them.

I only learned that my mother, sister and daughter were BPD 2 years ago.

I sincerely would appreciate your and the groups insights.

Sue

> >

> > Walked, a question for you...how do you forgive them? A problem I've had

throughout my life, a flea perhaps, is that I cannot forgive " friends " who do

what you describe. I often end the friendship or it is never the same for me

again. This has led me to isolate more and more and to just not even try to

tell people things that I know if they respond uncaringly I'll never forgive it.

The pain this triggers in me is just huge and probably related to the constant

invalidation and lack of understanding meted out by my nada.

> >

> > So how do you do it? How do you still have a genuine friendship after

they've invalidated the most painful thing in your life? I'd put those

questions to others here too if they'd like to jump in.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sue, welcome to the group! I don't want to take someone else's credit though -

that awesome response was 's post to my original question. You can't

go wrong looking up her old posts or the history in general this is an

awesome group of people.

What you wrote here:

" And their response is one of provoked criticism that I am thereby implying they

were remiss and that they are aggressively not going to tolerate it. So

therefore I have no position but they do have the stronger basis for me needing

to make amends to them for my fault in ever being justifiably hurt and

withdrawing. "

I can relate to all too well. And my thought is that friends who act like this

were never real friends to begin with. Now others on the groups might see this

differently, but my feeling is that for someone to put you in the place of

having " no position " and apologizing for being hurt just can't be a friend.

Even *if* you were in the wrong it just seems like a friend who truly cared

would respond a little more caringly somehow. I think as KO's we are very

vulnerable to making friends with people with PD's and people who need us to

take the " one down " position permanently in a relationship. Then in the rare

case we object they get righteously angry.

Sorry to hear you've got 3 BPD's in 3 generations to deal with - that sounds

awfully hard. I hope you find lots of good insight and support here.

welcome,

julie

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi and kayak/climber

> I am just joining this group today. My God the validation is really

incredible for the craziness of BPD. So much so that I am moving back in this

groups history and eating up all your perspectives.

>

> , your thoughtful response is really striking a chord in me. It is an

issue that I often repeat over and over with the friends I allow myself. I set

up with friends that I allow to chronically invalidate my experiences. And then

my response is to withdrawal. And their response is one of provoked criticism

that I am thereby implying they were remiss and that they are aggressively not

going to tolerate it. So therefore I have no position but they do have the

stronger basis for me needing to make amends to them for my fault in ever being

justifiably hurt and withdrawing. And if I permanently do sever ties with them

I am then isolated by their bad mouthing me to the group. It becomes mean

girls.

> I constantly set myself up with best friends who are Bipolar(they are fun),

ADD ( my father, sister, husband), ODD (everybody). With all the counseling I

have sought no one addresses in real steps how to not allow that these are the

people who get close to me. I am always lonely and wishing for the right kind

of good sharing friendship that I really do deserve. I think that well cared

for individuals sense my history and don't relate to me. I don't relate to

them either because I have never had what they take for granted and enjoy that

security with. I envy them.

> I only learned that my mother, sister and daughter were BPD 2 years ago.

> I sincerely would appreciate your and the groups insights.

> Sue

>

>