Re: A new kind of Happy

[Guest guest]

What a beautiful insight; that one really resonated with me and brought a tear

to my eye because my nada was the same way as yours: our house had to be perfect

at all times, so much so that it felt like nobody actually lived there.

It was a sterile environment in which things and appearances were more important

than living human beings. How joyful for you that you've embraced a healthy

" happy medium " between order/perfectionism/hyper-cleanliness vs

clutter/filth/neglect. You've found the middle road, the one that includes

shades of gray that the bpds can't ever seem to comprehend.

-Annie

>

> Growing up my folks kept their house really really clean. It was to the point

where it was uncomfortable as a child because we were not allowed toys in our

rooms, or in the main living areas of the house. We were only allowed to play in

the unfinished basement that had no carpets, no window, and just a few dim

lights. We could not even hang anything up on the walls or fridge because it

might look sloppy. It was not ideal for a childs play area, but the house always

looked nice. I still like clean spaces to this day, something that looks like a

magazine house.

>

> Now I am a mother and I always allow my children to keep toys in their room,

or living room, or projects displayed in the kitchen. They can mess their room

if they want to and are only asked to clean up their own bedroom every so often.

>

> Believe it or not I am still most comfortable when my house is clean and

messes drive me crazy but I try and understand that messes are part of life.

>

> Yesterday before bed I cleaned up dinner dishes, and looked around the kitchen

seeing a big mess, clay and pipe cleaner that my son is using to make a Native

American project for school, dehydrator out because my husband is making beef

jerky, sports bags and school bags slewed across the floor. I decided not to

tackle any of the mess and to just let it be and I went to bed, even though I

hate the feeling of a mess.

>

> Then I had a dream that my house was really clean the way that I like it. In

my dream I walked into a sparkling kitchen and at first glance I was satisfied

with the look and I called out loud in my dream " Who cleaned this mess up? " but

nobody replied and I realized I was alone and felt sad and lonely and empty. In

my dream I realized I don't mind the mess of a house as long as it means I have

love in my house and family and each other.

>

> When I woke up I went to my kitchen and I saw sports bags, beef jerky, clay

and pipe cleaners and I felt happy.

>

> LB

>

[Guest guest]

Lizzy and Anny-

We might have grown up in the same exact house! lol

Lizzy, I think your dream is wonderful. It is very moving to me that you got

such a meaningful realisation during your dream. I wonder where this wisdom is

coming from.

I am a believer and I think sometimes there is a higher power that just sends

powerful messages through dreams. But it is a very personal opinion, you don't

have to agree.

I think it is a beautiful story.

I like that you told yourself " it's ok, I can leave the mess around and go to

bed now " , it is very kind to yourself, it is a loving attitude toward yourself,

one that says " you do not need to look perfect at all times " .

I was raised in a very polished and sterile environment as well. My BP Mom's

rages were often triggered by some kind of minor mess. From a tiny bug that

pooped on a window, to a little pile of mud at the doo, something...

Chores were also a typical way of punishment/retaliation for my Mom, if we were

having too much " fun " and she was in a pissy mood.

Cause we all had to be miserable! ;-)

So now as and adult it is also super important for me to live in a super clean

environment.

I clean up every day, hate to leave dirty dishes behind, or dirty laundry.

Things have to look their best at all time.

I realise that the most stressed out I am, the more I am anxious to live in a

very clean environment.

I realized through therapy that the compulsion to keep things spotless clean in

my place comes from the same compulsion that my BP Mom probably has: a

compulsive need to CONTROL your environment.

The desire for a " controlled " environment is a logical reaction to a past of

abuse, where we did not have control, and a general feeling of vulnerability.

My grandmother has a beautiful house, not excessivly clean, some mess in the

kitchen most the time because she cooks a lot.

So I know that desire for perfect appearances didn't come from my Grandma'

model. My BP Mom was abused at her boarding school.

Very much like you Lizzy, I " train " myself to be ok with some dirty dishes in

the sink, with a kitchen floor that is not impeccable, and also, with not

looking all put together all the time myself.

I often think to myself that I am doing this FOR me, that I am being nice to

myself, that I am perfect and lovable as I am, with a not-so- perfect

appartment, with some things out of place, or no make up on.

But it is a training, and it is terribly hard to fight those impulses to clean

everything to feel ok and safe.

Today for example, I did the usual " clean everything up " routine.

I am glad I am not alone!

Thanks for sharing Lizzy & Anny,

Coralie

[Guest guest]

Its when the perfectionism / obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (or the

less severe plain old obsessive-compulsive disorder) takes the form of

*screaming* at the children and terrifying them, or battering them or

denigrating/humiliating/shaming them for things like not folding the towels

perfectly or not making the bed " right " and things like that when it really

starts being traumatic and damaging to the children.

But then again, the more subtle behavior of forbidding a child to even have toys

in her own room is pretty severe too; that conveys the message that the child

doesn't even deserve to exist. Even convicts incarcerated in federal pens get

to decorate their damned cels, for pete's sake.

Sister and I never even dreamed of asking friends over to play inside or sleep

over, that would have been WAY too stressful for nada and even if she agreed

that it was OK, it would likely have resulted in her screaming at me in front of

a friend and embarrassing the crap out of me. I'd go to sleepovers at friends'

houses and play at their houses because it was too anxiety-drenched and

potentially disastrous to have them over to my parent's house.

And don't get me started on the abnormal levels of stress, anxiety and

perfectionist cleaning rituals we'd be subjected to if nada and dad wanted to

have a dinner party or something. It gives me a headache just thinking about

it. It made me never want to entertain friends in my home as an adult, ever.

I'm glad that in late middle age I have finally got over that phobia.

My nada would also use chores as punishment and as a form of humiliation. Its

probably not so surprising that when my Sister and I each left home and each had

our own place, we (without consulting each other) went through a horrible-slob /

filthy-disorganized-clutter phase for several years. Both of us, it seems,

chose to " rebel " in the same way, by basically flipping nada the finger RE her

housekeeping perfectionism. And maybe we were both hoping that it would be

" nada bane " , that nada would never want to come visit us! Ha! That just

occurred to me as a distinct possibility.

See, to me, its normal and healthy to want to have your home neat, clean and

organized, its the extremism or obsessiveness about it to the point where

verbally abusing the spouse and kids and shrieking at them about it that it

becomes a mental disorder.

Personality-disordered individuals seem to fall into the extreme end of a given

behavior. We've had threads of discussion before about this being the common

factor: extremism.

Apparently a lot of nadas fall into the other extreme end and live in shockingly

filthy squalor: they allow their child's home to become a vermin-infested

garbage dump and fire-trap, to the point where neighbors call in complaints to

the health department because of the rats or the stench.

Either extreme is an unpleasant and stressful environment for a child, but at

least the hyper-clean nadas' kids won't get bitten by rats while they sleep.

-Annie

>

>

> Lizzy and Anny-

> We might have grown up in the same exact house! lol

> Lizzy, I think your dream is wonderful. It is very moving to me that you got

such a meaningful realisation during your dream. I wonder where this wisdom is

coming from.

> I am a believer and I think sometimes there is a higher power that just sends

powerful messages through dreams. But it is a very personal opinion, you don't

have to agree.

> I think it is a beautiful story.

> I like that you told yourself " it's ok, I can leave the mess around and go to

bed now " , it is very kind to yourself, it is a loving attitude toward yourself,

one that says " you do not need to look perfect at all times " .

>

> I was raised in a very polished and sterile environment as well. My BP Mom's

rages were often triggered by some kind of minor mess. From a tiny bug that

pooped on a window, to a little pile of mud at the doo, something...

> Chores were also a typical way of punishment/retaliation for my Mom, if we

were having too much " fun " and she was in a pissy mood.

> Cause we all had to be miserable! ;-)

>

> So now as and adult it is also super important for me to live in a super clean

environment.

> I clean up every day, hate to leave dirty dishes behind, or dirty laundry.

Things have to look their best at all time.

> I realise that the most stressed out I am, the more I am anxious to live in a

very clean environment.

>

> I realized through therapy that the compulsion to keep things spotless clean

in my place comes from the same compulsion that my BP Mom probably has: a

compulsive need to CONTROL your environment.

>

> The desire for a " controlled " environment is a logical reaction to a past of

abuse, where we did not have control, and a general feeling of vulnerability.

> My grandmother has a beautiful house, not excessivly clean, some mess in the

kitchen most the time because she cooks a lot.

> So I know that desire for perfect appearances didn't come from my Grandma'

model. My BP Mom was abused at her boarding school.

>

> Very much like you Lizzy, I " train " myself to be ok with some dirty dishes in

the sink, with a kitchen floor that is not impeccable, and also, with not

looking all put together all the time myself.

> I often think to myself that I am doing this FOR me, that I am being nice to

myself, that I am perfect and lovable as I am, with a not-so- perfect

appartment, with some things out of place, or no make up on.

>

> But it is a training, and it is terribly hard to fight those impulses to clean

everything to feel ok and safe.

> Today for example, I did the usual " clean everything up " routine.

> I am glad I am not alone!

>

> Thanks for sharing Lizzy & Anny,

> Coralie

>

[Guest guest]

" Sister and I never even dreamed of asking friends over to play inside or sleep

over, that would have been WAY too stressful for nada and even if she agreed

that it was OK, it would likely have resulted in her screaming at me in front of

a friend and embarrassing the crap out of me. I'd go to sleepovers at friends'

houses and play at their houses because it was too anxiety-drenched and

potentially disastrous to have them over to my parent's house. "

Dear Annie,

Yes, I understand your point about how obcessive cleanliness can become totally

abusive or even just a tool for abuse, an excuse, when there are kids around.

But I can tell you than more often than not, I have felt the burden on my

shoulders, as an adult living by myself, to always keep things clean, almost as

if I wasn't doing it for myself. But to obey some rules, or else something bad

would happen.

What I am trying to say is that I think for myself at least, this need for order

around me can be too much for me. I look at myself and tell myself " this not

really who I want to be " , or " I wish I could be more relaxed, more ok about some

moderate mess around the house " .

I have to work on it to be more relaxed with things not in their place. It is

just between me, myself and I.

I bitch about putting things away with my BF, but other than that, it is a

pressure I put mostly on myself.

And it can be very tiring.

My previous post got me thinking afterwards.

I realised one thing, Lizzy's dream reminded me of the good old dichotomy

between:

how it looks as opposed to how it feels.

For me, it is a recuring theme. On the outside, if one doesn't look to close, my

Mom is amazing, gorgeous woman, always put together, beautiful house, great

decoration, not a thing out of place.

My BP Mom is obcessed about how things look.

If things look good, it is all that mattered.

The problem is that things *looked* good only on the outside. And they felt

awful very often.

My BP Mom could fool people so easily. She could scream one minute in private,

and be her charming self the next to the outside world or the guests. I often

felt like we were putting on a show. We had to look a certain way, so that

people would think we were happier than we were, and were living a different

lifestyle than we had.

It is not about experience, about human relationships, intamicy, and how things

truely feel. It is not about caring and letting some space for everyone, it is

about making sure that we *look* good on the picture.

Lizzy you went with what felt good, what felt right, and not what things looked

like.

It is my personal goal, to try and go with how things feel and worry less about

how they look.

Annie, you wrote:

" Sister and I never even dreamed of asking friends over to play inside or sleep

over, that would have been WAY too stressful for nada and even if she agreed

that it was OK, it would likely have resulted in her screaming at me in front of

a friend and embarrassing the crap out of me. I'd go to sleepovers at friends'

houses and play at their houses because it was too anxiety-drenched and

potentially disastrous to have them over to my parent's house. "

This is also my experience. I would never want to have friends over, because it

would have been an affront, it would have been a very daring thing for me to ask

my BP Mom. She would have been pissed that I asked her something like that,

which would have meant more stress for her.

And the other part is that me too, I would have been too embarrassed to let my

friends see my Mom how she is. To let my friends see how she could talk to me.

No way.

Coralie

[Guest guest]

What you said about just the looks mattering and not the feelings…. that was my

house in a nutshell. From a physical standpoint our home looked marvelous. Mom

and dad never divorced, the yard was full of flowers and veggies something I

started when I was about 10 and dad picked up with me later on. Our house was

immaculate inside as was the yard. My mom couldn't cook worth a crap but isn't

that why they made ready meals? 2 pretty daughters who got along well. The whole

family involved in church. Any families dream right?

A few people got close to us and instantly they saw how messed up we were. I

have heard so many times how perfect we looked from the outside but how messed

up we really were. It makes me sick.

Now I don't care about any of that garbage. I tend my gardens because I have

always loved flowers. I want a clean house because I am used to it, but I try to

let my kids mess the place up (to a degree) because I want my whole family to

feel comfortable not just me. I cook because I started as a child out of need,

but it turned out to be a hobby I love. I try not to blow my top when I am angry

like nada always did, most of the time I am able to keep cool, but if I do I

apologize to let my kids know its okay to make a mistake and even grown ups

screw up too. I am open about my dislike of my nada to my children, but I tell

them all the time how much I love her and even though she is very sick she is

not all bad, I tell them the good things she did too, like how she taught me to

love my sister. I hope they understand if not there is always therapy or blogs

where they can complain about me haha.

Here I am trying to make a happy medium almost 10 years later with a house and

family of my own. I think its working…its just a learning process and not an

easy one. LB

> " Sister and I never even dreamed of asking friends over to play inside or

sleep over, that would have been WAY too stressful for nada and even if she

agreed that it was OK, it would likely have resulted in her screaming at me in

front of a friend and embarrassing the crap out of me. I'd go to sleepovers at

friends' houses and play at their houses because it was too anxiety-drenched and

potentially disastrous to have them over to my parent's house. "

>

> This is also my experience. I would never want to have friends over, because

it would have been an affront, it would have been a very daring thing for me to

ask my BP Mom. She would have been pissed that I asked her something like that,

which would have meant more stress for her.

> And the other part is that me too, I would have been too embarrassed to let my

friends see my Mom how she is. To let my friends see how she could talk to me.

No way.

>

> Coralie

>