mental illness: WAS: centralizing efforts revisited

[Guest guest]

>

> first of all, I am not using the same N=1 sample size. I am using

> self-report, and it is a leapof assumption to think that I am the

>only one who has overcome psychosis without the 'sympathetic arm' of

>the mental health system.

I never said that. At the time, your argument was solely based on

your own expereince which you were using as an argument against

coerced treatment in general - in other words, you were doing the

generalizing, not me - my response was primarily just pointing that

out. I never claimed you were the only one, I just pointed out that

all your experiences indicate is that *you* are one - it tells us

almost nothing about other ppl, and that is the point I was making; I

never said you were the only such person, just pointed out that, on

the basis of what you said, you actually provided no evidence that

showed that you werent.

>

> Many of the people I saw in the hospital (over a period of six

>weeks) were labeled schizophrenic, as were many on the mailing lists.

> This 'labeling' is one of the major issues that these survivors are

>fighting. Another issue is the drugs that have been forced on them.

> Most patients are not warned of the horrendous side-effects of these

>drugs (many of them are irreversible over time) before being doped

>up, and after being doped up, it is very difficult to think for

>oneself.

They will have been diagnosed as schizophrenic, which is only

" labelling " them to the extent that diagnosing someone diabetic is

" labelling " them as diabetic. I also note that one schizophrenic

firend was never told he was schizophrenic - he worked it out for

himself, asked the shrink who confirmed it. His difficulties had

nothing whatsoever with having been " labelled " .

> Please do not assume that I base my opinions on a sample of 'N=1';

>this is very demeaning.

I didnt assume that - in the post to which I responded, your arguments

were solely based on your own experience. This would suggest that you

think your experience alone is an adequate argument (if not, you

presumably would have offered more), which means in fact that you

think that an N=1 sample is an adequate basis for your opinion, in

that you thought it enough to persuade me. Ok, you draw on other

sources - but you didnt offer them, and I can only respond to what you

offer.

> Don't get me started on general medicine. My opinion: Yes, most

>medicine should be discarded. Whether you agree or not, this is my

>opinion.

Well thats ok with me, but I would say that that needs to be taken

into consideration when someone assesses your views. your attacks on

Psychiatry are part of a hostility to medicine in general. Someone

who does not have that hostility may hence be skeptical of your

attacks on Psychiatry as simply reflecting your general hostility to

medicine. Do you discard repairmen?

> I don't know, Pete, but you and I must know very different types of

> 'schizophrenics'. I have never spoken to one who is 'grateful' for

>the intervention of forced hospitalization and/or forced drugging.

Actually, I didnt say that I knew grateful ones, I said that Szasz

expressed disapproval of coerced treatement even if they *were*

grateful, which was the point I wished to make. As it happens, I have

met ones who have been grateful. However, they are hardly going to

shout from the rooftops how grateful they are that Psychiatry saved

them from themselves. Far more would never say they were grateful, but

nevertheless accept that they needed the hospitalization. rather like

when ppl beat a drink problem without AA, ppl who recover succesfully

in the psychiatric system arent going to base their identity around

their experience, joining email lists and going on about how

marvellous psychiatry is. Instead, they are going to want to go

quietly on with their lives and not want to flaunt their earlier

difficulties; this is especially true if they still are still

symptomatic and still medicated, which is true in the great majority

of cases of schizophrenia. However, someone who rejects the

psychiatric paradigm their dx, and their treatment and considers

themselves a " survivor " of it is far more likely to talk

about itand organize and campaign to propogate their views. Hence, a

skewed sample results, just like we hardly ever hear from ppl who

mature out of addiction, especially those who still drink or do drugs

moderately!

>In fact, most, if not all, hate the medication. I have, however,

>spoken to some who are 'grateful' for the shelter, in the form of a

>hospital or halfway house, as the only 'home' they have known in

>adult life. I see this as a very tragic by-product of the social

>injustices that have, along with the mental health system, encouraged

>dependency by propagating the belief that these people are incapable

>of helping themselves, and have, by so doing, perpetuated the

>thinking and behavior labeled as 'schizophrenia'.

I lived in such a place for 18 months. I am well aware that most hate

the medication, and how bad the side-effects can be. however, there

must be a tradeoff against the horrors of chronic psychosis which the

drugs may control. when people feel pretty well on the medication

obviously they are going to resent having to take it. However, in my

experience they may attribute to the medication symptoms which are

actually being partly *controlled* by the medication.

> By the way, Pete, this 'gratitude for intervention' sounds an awful

>lot like the 12-steppers who are 'grateful' for the intervention that

>brought them into the rooms. Hmmmm....

Is there any way that they could be grateful which you would *not*

consider to be 'awfully like' that expressed by steppers? Again, I

actually dont claim most are grateful - however, I think the most well

recovered usually are aware that they did in fact need the treatment

that they have been given.

> I have doctoral credits in Psychology...and chose not to complete

the doctoral program I was in because of what was taught. I don't

believe in most of it...and, again, this is my opinion....

I respect this - and I have the opinion to disagree.

> If you have ever read most of my posts, you would have seen that I

sign them 'Ellen'. Sorry you missed that.

I didnt miss it - I had no reason to remember a meaningless addy as

yours. you didnt sign the ones I responded too.