Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

October 8, 2000

how about taking responsibility for myself , my actions and sanity

as opposed to " turning it over " ? how about believing in myself to

do what's best for

me, how about self empowerment as opposed to a doctrine of

powerlessness? how about self respect as opposed to ego

destruction?

the steps have nothing, i repeat nothing, to do with alcoholism.

they are formula for religious conversion at the beginning and

they still are 60 years later.

for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to

god or other supposed " higher being " ) you have to create the

need. if i believe in

myself to " restore " my sanity, there is no need for god. No need

for god!? that blasphemy! so to create the need, you have to

believe the you are

powerless, you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

believe without the god belief system you will die. the steps

accomplish that fairly well. if

its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to

begin with?

AA likes to claim its " spiritual not religious " because you can

" make anything your hp " , as if this alone make sit a non religious

belief system they are proposing.

these quote from bill seem to cast doubt on that

revisionist history of AA:

Bill and Dr. Bob

Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in March, 1943

Bill :

" Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset... "

An alcoholic is a fellow who is " trying to get his religion out of a

bottle, " when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity

with God. . . . "

" There is a definite religious element here,

Dr. Bob:

" Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate

the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of

Alcoholics Anonymous to others. " The paper added: " He

particularly recommended reading the Bible. "

LIVING CREATOR GOD:

from " There is a Solution "

" it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or

color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form

a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon

as we are willing and honest enough to try. "

------

hmmm. seems no mater how willing and honest i am, a door

knob and ash tray aren't my " living creator "

suppose we were talking about a religious sect of snake

handlers, and they claimed by handling the snake, you would

have the power of the snake god to

" restore your sanity " . but i tell them don't like snake handling,

its

a religious belief and has nothing to do with my alcoholism. they

tell me to pretend the

snake is anything i want, just as long as i continue to handle the

snake and belief it will restore my sanity. if i do so, is it any

less a

religious act on my

part? am i not being told to make a leap of faith in the snake, and

to believe my " restored " sanity is creditable to the snake?

if i fail to remain sober, i will be told the " program is perfect'

and

that i must not have been handling the snake right. im also told

that to stray away from

the snake , would mean facing institutions, jails or death. that the

only way i could keep what i got, to keep my sanity was to

continue to cary the message

of the snake.

do you think many people would think that what i just described

wasnt a religious cult, but a " spiritual " fellowship? do you think

the supreme court

would let that be taught in public schools? do you think the

christian coalition would like that? why wouldnt they if it was only

" spirtual " and not

relgious?

to answer your question, what comes after AA is to start thinking

for yourself agian, as opposed to being fed what to think.

October 8, 2000

sorry for the inadvertant sexism on my part here, afterall how can

god be a 'he " if there is no god? all those paintings of god as a

big ole white guy with a beard stuck in my brain i guess.

> its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to

> begin with?

>

October 8, 2000

Hey I will talk to you, although I don't think you were talking to me.

>how about taking responsibility for myself , my actions and sanity >as opposed to "turning it over"? how about believing in myself to >do what's best for >me, how about self empowerment as opposed to a doctrine of >powerlessness? how about self respect as opposed to ego >destruction?

Hey, sounds good and all, for a sane person. But what about an active alcoholic? First of all, active alcoholics do not take responsibility for themselves, their actions or their (lack of) sanity. Secondly, they can NOT trust themselves to do what is best for them. Self empowerment is what they need, but they are in no position to acquire it. I disagree with any program that adheres to destroying self respect, but I don't think AA does so (I am sure individuals within AA do, however). It teaches self respect, but it also teaches the required humility... and humility is REQUIRED to move from the state of insanity to the state of sanity that alcoholics who seek out AA want. If one is not humble but doesn't drink then he is merely dry. An active alcoholic doesn't know anything about these things and is very unlikely to refrain from drinking without the help of others, which is the main focus of AA. Politics and squabbling aren't what AA, recovery or life is all about. Helping others and the self is what its about. If the tenants of AA are mistranslated, then argue with that, and if those tenants are wrong, then point that out too, but don't make things up. Turning it over means giving up control - becoming dependent on others (and God if you swing that way) until you are capable of being dependent on yourself. If you want to place your life in the hands of an active alcoholic, go for it.

The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. --Albert Einstein

>the steps have nothing, i repeat nothing, to do with alcoholism. >they are formula for religious conversion at the beginning and >they still are 60 years later.

You seem too adament about all of this. Have you sought professional help? We can just split hairs here if you want. Why say something so absolute, and thus so ridiculous? The steps have a whole lot to do with alcoholism. First and foremost, lest you forget, they are merely suggestions. The first step pertains to almost any person with any disorder, addiction etc. The following steps are not religous as religion must have some type of deity. The steps are a formula for success... not even original thoughts of Dr Bob or Bill W - these steps were taken from various forms of what we now call self help (it was not so common, but it was starting out). These were steps that these guys found to work, on themselves and a hell of a lot of other people!

>for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to >god or other supposed "higher being") you have to create the need.

Millions of alcoholics who could/can not stop drinking alone was/is the need.

>if i believe in myself to "restore" my sanity, there is no need for god.

That sounds great, too, but a number of people will tell you they were unable to "restore" their sanity without outside help... AA is indeed a good place to go for that help. Keep believing in yourself, I have no reason to disbelieve that you can do it alone, but I don't see your purpose in continuing to fashion falsehoods about a program that helps people!

>No need >for god!? that blasphemy!

In some parts of the world there is "good AA" and other parts just have AA. I have excused myself from anything that I did not consider good AA. I have never heard anyone act that way towards an agnostic at a good AA group, or even a bad one for that matter.

>so to create the need, you have to >believe the you are >powerless,

Are you sober? Are you drinking? If your sober (and an alcoholic), how can you not admit that, for a time, you were powerless over alcohol? If you are an alcoholic, and if you drink, you are powerless over it - thats what an alcoholic is - someone who is powerless over alcohol! What is your definition? If you don't beleive you are powerless, then what do you believe you are?

>you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

Do you believe you differently? I believe alcholism is terminal. I have been sober enough and alive enough to see that alcoholic people remain alcholic. If you want to be the guinea pig who proves differently, then by all means, go for it.

>believe without the god belief system you will die.

Where do you get this? I am still agnostic, although AA got me sober. I don't spout off about how horrible it is. It helped me get sober, and fuck you, I am grateful for it.

>the steps >accomplish that fairly well. if >its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to >begin with?

HE WASN'T - CAN'T YOU READ? MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO GO TO AN AA MEETING - THEY WILL READ IT TO YOU.

You can't have it both ways. You keep mentioning the steps saying all these things that they do not say. Yes, Bill W and Dr Bob were both "believers" (in God) but they made a lot of allowances for people who did not and would not accept a God. Your saying that AA forces religion is bullshit, and unless you can come up with some good support for your arguments, I am going to killfile you. As Bill W is a believer, and a prolific writer, I am not at all surprised that you can find lots of examples where he mentions God. But that doesn't have anything to do with your curreent argument - AA doesn't force God on people... AA doesn't force anything on people... indubitably individuals attempt to force all kinds of things on others. For example you are trying to force the idea that AA is this horrible cult, and I am trying to force some reason into your noggin. I wish you would calm down and try to say whatever it is you mean to say without all the anger and resentment. And if you mean to say that AA is a horrible cult, please tell me why you have such an absurd idea.

It sounds like you suffered some sort of trauma at the hands of some AA people?? Thanks for answering my question, now that I read your whole post I guess you were talking to me. I am glad you think its a good idea for me to think for myself than to be fed what to think. I do think for myself. I have a year sober, not much really, and I have attended one AA meeting in the past six months, not bragging not feeling guilt, just telling you a fact. I have thought about going and picking up a 1 year chip but I haven't yet. I still haven't decided if I am going to. I have my own reasons for not going to meetings. I hope you don't think I have been defending AA in this reply; I have been defending reality - meaning I believe you are making things up - things that are unreal - if I saw these things in AA, I would have to agree with you and I would likely complain, too, but I have not. I have seen other things I didn't like and I will be glad to tell you sometime. If you are complaining about people not thinking for themselves, I think you need to start somewhere much more basic than AA... there are much larger, much more dangerous and much more destructive organizations and institutions in this world. Why not target them? Which side are you on boy?

Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to god or other supposed "higher being") you have to create the need. if i believe in myself to "restore" my sanity, there is no need for god. No need for god!? that blasphemy! so to create the need, you have to believe the you are powerless, you have to believe you are incurable. you have to believe without the god belief system you will die. the steps accomplish that fairly well. if its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to begin with?AA likes to claim its "spiritual not religious" because you can "make anything your hp", as if this alone make sit a non religious belief system they are proposing.these quote from bill seem to cast doubt on that revisionist history of AA:Bill and Dr. BobShrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in March, 1943Bill :"Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset..."An alcoholic is a fellow who is "trying to get his religion out of a bottle," when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity with God. . . ""There is a definite religious element here,Dr. Bob:"Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles ofAlcoholics Anonymous to others." The paper added: "He particularly recommended reading the Bible."LIVING CREATOR GOD:from "There is a Solution""it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, orcolor are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon as we are willing and honest enough to try."------hmmm. seems no mater how willing and honest i am, a door knob and ash tray aren't my "living creator"suppose we were talking about a religious sect of snake handlers, and they claimed by handling the snake, you would have the power of the snake god to "restore your sanity". but i tell them don't like snake handling,its a religious belief and has nothing to do with my alcoholism. they tell me to pretend the snake is anything i want, just as long as i continue to handle the snake and belief it will restore my sanity. if i do so, is it anyless a religious act on my part? am i not being told to make a leap of faith in the snake, and to believe my "restored" sanity is creditable to the snake? if i fail to remain sober, i will be told the "program is perfect'and that i must not have been handling the snake right. im also told that to stray away from the snake , would mean facing institutions, jails or death. that the only way i could keep what i got, to keep my sanity was to continue to cary the message of the snake.do you think many people would think that what i just described wasnt a religious cult, but a "spiritual" fellowship? do you think the supreme court would let that be taught in public schools? do you think the christian coalition would like that? why wouldnt they if it was only "spirtual " and not relgious?to answer your question, what comes after AA is to start thinking for yourself agian, as opposed to being fed what to think.

October 8, 2000

I dunno, How could God be a he if there was a God?!

Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

sorry for the inadvertant sexism on my part here, afterall how can god be a 'he" if there is no god? all those paintings of god as a big ole white guy with a beard stuck in my brain i guess. > its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to > begin with?>

October 9, 2000

For the most part, people who don't do the steps do the same kind of stuff

as people who don't eat brussel sprouts.

-- wally

Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

> Well I am new to this. I have been in AA a while. If you don't do the

>steps, what do you do? Just wondering.

>

> Thanks,

> Anonymous

October 9, 2000

> sorry for the inadvertant sexism on my part here, afterall how

can

> god be a 'he " if there is no god? all those paintings of god as

a

> big ole white guy with a beard stuck in my brain i guess.

October 9, 2000

Hey -- you must be one of them " tenants of AA " . Haven't paid any rent there

myself for 13 years -- don't like bent landlords. Tenets, schmenets . .

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

>Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:45:43 -0400

>

> Hey I will talk to you, although I don't think you were talking to me.

>

> >how about taking responsibility for myself , my actions and sanity

> >as opposed to " turning it over " ? how about believing in myself to

> >do what's best for

> >me, how about self empowerment as opposed to a doctrine of

> >powerlessness? how about self respect as opposed to ego

> >destruction?

>

>Hey, sounds good and all, for a sane person. But what about an active

>alcoholic? First of all, active alcoholics do not take responsibility for

>themselves, their actions or their (lack of) sanity. Secondly, they can

>NOT trust themselves to do what is best for them. Self empowerment is what

>they need, but they are in no position to acquire it. I disagree with any

>program that adheres to destroying self respect, but I don't think AA does

>so (I am sure individuals within AA do, however). It teaches self respect,

>but it also teaches the required humility... and humility is REQUIRED to

>move from the state of insanity to the state of sanity that alcoholics who

>seek out AA want. If one is not humble but doesn't drink then he is merely

>dry. An active alcoholic doesn't know anything about these things and is

>very unlikely to refrain from drinking without the help of others, which is

>the main focus of AA. Politics and squabbling aren't what AA, recovery or

>life is all about. Helping others and the self is what its about. If the

>tenants of AA are mistranslated, then argue with that, and if those tenants

>are wrong, then point that out too, but don't make things up. Turning it

>over means giving up control - becoming dependent on others (and God if you

>swing that way) until you are capable of being dependent on yourself. If

>you want to place your life in the hands of an active alcoholic, go for it.

>

>The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of

>thinking we were at when we created them. --Albert Einstein

>

> >the steps have nothing, i repeat nothing, to do with alcoholism.

> >they are formula for religious conversion at the beginning and

> >they still are 60 years later.

>

> You seem too adament about all of this. Have you sought professional

>help? We can just split hairs here if you want. Why say something so

>absolute, and thus so ridiculous? The steps have a whole lot to do with

>alcoholism. First and foremost, lest you forget, they are merely

>suggestions. The first step pertains to almost any person with any

>disorder, addiction etc. The following steps are not religous as religion

>must have some type of deity. The steps are a formula for success... not

>even original thoughts of Dr Bob or Bill W - these steps were taken from

>various forms of what we now call self help (it was not so common, but it

>was starting out). These were steps that these guys found to work, on

>themselves and a hell of a lot of other people!

>

> >for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to

> >god or other supposed " higher being " ) you have to create the need.

>

> Millions of alcoholics who could/can not stop drinking alone was/is the

>need.

>

> >if i believe in myself to " restore " my sanity, there is no need for god.

>

> That sounds great, too, but a number of people will tell you they were

>unable to " restore " their sanity without outside help... AA is indeed a

>good place to go for that help. Keep believing in yourself, I have no

>reason to disbelieve that you can do it alone, but I don't see your purpose

>in continuing to fashion falsehoods about a program that helps people!

>

> >No need

> >for god!? that blasphemy!

>

> In some parts of the world there is " good AA " and other parts just have

>AA. I have excused myself from anything that I did not consider good AA.

>I have never heard anyone act that way towards an agnostic at a good AA

>group, or even a bad one for that matter.

>

> >so to create the need, you have to

> >believe the you are

> >powerless,

>

> Are you sober? Are you drinking? If your sober (and an alcoholic),

>how can you not admit that, for a time, you were powerless over alcohol?

>If you are an alcoholic, and if you drink, you are powerless over it -

>thats what an alcoholic is - someone who is powerless over alcohol! What

>is your definition? If you don't beleive you are powerless, then what do

>you believe you are?

>

> >you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

>

> Do you believe you differently? I believe alcholism is terminal. I

>have been sober enough and alive enough to see that alcoholic people remain

>alcholic. If you want to be the guinea pig who proves differently, then by

>all means, go for it.

>

> >believe without the god belief system you will die.

>

> Where do you get this? I am still agnostic, although AA got me sober.

>I don't spout off about how horrible it is. It helped me get sober, and

>fuck you, I am grateful for it.

>

> >the steps

> >accomplish that fairly well. if

> >its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to

> >begin with?

>

>HE WASN'T - CAN'T YOU READ? MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO GO TO AN AA MEETING - THEY

>WILL READ IT TO YOU.

>

> You can't have it both ways. You keep mentioning the steps saying all

>these things that they do not say. Yes, Bill W and Dr Bob were both

> " believers " (in God) but they made a lot of allowances for people who did

>not and would not accept a God. Your saying that AA forces religion is

>bullshit, and unless you can come up with some good support for your

>arguments, I am going to killfile you. As Bill W is a believer, and a

>prolific writer, I am not at all surprised that you can find lots of

>examples where he mentions God. But that doesn't have anything to do with

>your curreent argument - AA doesn't force God on people... AA doesn't force

>anything on people... indubitably individuals attempt to force all kinds

>of things on others. For example you are trying to force the idea that AA

>is this horrible cult, and I am trying to force some reason into your

>noggin. I wish you would calm down and try to say whatever it is you mean

>to say without all the anger and resentment. And if you mean to say that

>AA is a horrible cult, please tell me why you have such an absurd idea.

>

> It sounds like you suffered some sort of trauma at the hands of some AA

>people?? Thanks for answering my question, now that I read your whole post

>I guess you were talking to me. I am glad you think its a good idea for me

>to think for myself than to be fed what to think. I do think for myself.

>I have a year sober, not much really, and I have attended one AA meeting in

>the past six months, not bragging not feeling guilt, just telling you a

>fact. I have thought about going and picking up a 1 year chip but I

>haven't yet. I still haven't decided if I am going to. I have my own

>reasons for not going to meetings. I hope you don't think I have been

>defending AA in this reply; I have been defending reality - meaning I

>believe you are making things up - things that are unreal - if I saw these

>things in AA, I would have to agree with you and I would likely complain,

>too, but I have not. I have seen other things I didn't like and I will be

>glad to tell you sometime. If you are complaining about people not

>thinking for themselves, I think you need to start somewhere much more

>basic than AA... there are much larger, much more dangerous and much more

>destructive organizations and institutions in this world. Why not target

>them? Which side are you on boy?

> Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

>

> for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to

> god or other supposed " higher being " ) you have to create the

> need. if i believe in

> myself to " restore " my sanity, there is no need for god. No need

> for god!? that blasphemy! so to create the need, you have to

> believe the you are

> powerless, you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

> believe without the god belief system you will die. the steps

> accomplish that fairly well. if

> its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to

> begin with?

>

> AA likes to claim its " spiritual not religious " because you can

> " make anything your hp " , as if this alone make sit a non religious

> belief system they are proposing.

>

> these quote from bill seem to cast doubt on that

> revisionist history of AA:

>

> Bill and Dr. Bob

> Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in March, 1943

>

> Bill :

> " Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset... "

> An alcoholic is a fellow who is " trying to get his religion out of a

> bottle, " when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity

> with God. . . . "

> " There is a definite religious element here,

>

> Dr. Bob:

> " Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate

> the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of

> Alcoholics Anonymous to others. " The paper added: " He

> particularly recommended reading the Bible. "

>

> LIVING CREATOR GOD:

> from " There is a Solution "

> " it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or

> color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form

> a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon

> as we are willing and honest enough to try. "

> ------

>

> hmmm. seems no mater how willing and honest i am, a door

> knob and ash tray aren't my " living creator "

>

> suppose we were talking about a religious sect of snake

> handlers, and they claimed by handling the snake, you would

> have the power of the snake god to

> " restore your sanity " . but i tell them don't like snake handling,

> its

> a religious belief and has nothing to do with my alcoholism. they

> tell me to pretend the

> snake is anything i want, just as long as i continue to handle the

> snake and belief it will restore my sanity. if i do so, is it any

> less a

> religious act on my

> part? am i not being told to make a leap of faith in the snake, and

> to believe my " restored " sanity is creditable to the snake?

>

> if i fail to remain sober, i will be told the " program is perfect'

> and

> that i must not have been handling the snake right. im also told

> that to stray away from

> the snake , would mean facing institutions, jails or death. that the

> only way i could keep what i got, to keep my sanity was to

> continue to cary the message

> of the snake.

>

> do you think many people would think that what i just described

> wasnt a religious cult, but a " spiritual " fellowship? do you think

> the supreme court

> would let that be taught in public schools? do you think the

> christian coalition would like that? why wouldnt they if it was only

> " spirtual " and not

> relgious?

>

> to answer your question, what comes after AA is to start thinking

> for yourself agian, as opposed to being fed what to think.

>

_________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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October 9, 2000

My apologies Doug

Re: Welcome to 12-step-free>>>> for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to> god or other supposed "higher being") you have to create the> need. if i believe in> myself to "restore" my sanity, there is no need for god. No need> for god!? that blasphemy! so to create the need, you have to> believe the you are> powerless, you have to believe you are incurable. you have to> believe without the god belief system you will die. the steps> accomplish that fairly well. if> its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to> begin with?>>> AA likes to claim its "spiritual not religious" because you can> "make anything your hp", as if this alone make sit a non religious> belief system they are proposing.>>> these quote from bill seem to cast doubt on that> revisionist history of AA:>> Bill and Dr. Bob> Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in March, 1943>> Bill :> "Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset..."> An alcoholic is a fellow who is "trying to get his religion out of a> bottle," when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity> with God. . . ."> "There is a definite religious element here,>> Dr. Bob:> "Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate> the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of> Alcoholics Anonymous to others." The paper added: "He> particularly recommended reading the Bible.">>> LIVING CREATOR GOD:> from "There is a Solution"> "it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or> color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form> a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon> as we are willing and honest enough to try."> ------>>> hmmm. seems no mater how willing and honest i am, a door> knob and ash tray aren't my "living creator">>>> suppose we were talking about a religious sect of snake> handlers, and they claimed by handling the snake, you would> have the power of the snake god to> "restore your sanity". but i tell them don't like snake handling,> its> a religious belief and has nothing to do with my alcoholism. they> tell me to pretend the> snake is anything i want, just as long as i continue to handle the> snake and belief it will restore my sanity. if i do so, is it any> less a> religious act on my> part? am i not being told to make a leap of faith in the snake, and> to believe my "restored" sanity is creditable to the snake?>> if i fail to remain sober, i will be told the "program is perfect'> and> that i must not have been handling the snake right. im also told> that to stray away from> the snake , would mean facing institutions, jails or death. that the> only way i could keep what i got, to keep my sanity was to> continue to cary the message> of the snake.>> do you think many people would think that what i just described> wasnt a religious cult, but a "spiritual" fellowship? do you think> the supreme court> would let that be taught in public schools? do you think the> christian coalition would like that? why wouldnt they if it was only> "spirtual " and not> relgious?>>> to answer your question, what comes after AA is to start thinking> for yourself agian, as opposed to being fed what to think.>>>_________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.

October 9, 2000

> Subject:

> Re: Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

> Date:

> Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:45:43 -0400

> From:

> " coolguy "

> Reply-To:

> 12-step-freeegroups

> To:

> <12-step-freeegroups>

> References:

> 1

>

> Hey I will talk to you, although I don't think you were talking to me.

>

> >how about taking responsibility for myself , my actions and sanity

> >as opposed to " turning it over " ? how about believing in myself to

> >do what's best for

> >me, how about self empowerment as opposed to a doctrine of

> >powerlessness? how about self respect as opposed to ego

> >destruction?

>

> Hey, sounds good and all, for a sane person. But what about an active

alcoholic? First of all, active alcoholics do not take responsibility for

> themselves, their actions or their (lack of) sanity. Secondly, they can NOT

trust themselves to do what is best for them. Self empowerment

> is what they need, but they are in no position to acquire it. I disagree with

any program that adheres to destroying self respect,

>

Coolguy,

What about " Relieve me of the bondage of self that I can better do thy

will? " and " Of myself I am nothing " ? What about " fear, that evil and

corroding thread, " " Anger shuts out the Sunlight of the Spirit " ? What

about " When I'm alone with myself I'm behind enemy lines " ? What about

" alcoholic thinking " ?

When one has been convinced that their feelings are wrong, their

thoughts are wrong and they should _get rid of the self_, and the self

is compared to _nothing_, what is that if not destroying _self_

respect? Certainly, when feeling impulsed to engage in self-destructive

behaviors, feelings and thoughts may not make sense but that is merely a

matter of not knowing their origins, their meaning and learning better

ways to " deal with " them (learning to have them and not try to destroy

them).

> but I don't

> think AA does so (I am sure individuals within AA do, however). It teaches

self respect, but it also teaches the required humility... and

> humility is REQUIRED to move from the state of insanity to the state of sanity

that alcoholics who seek out AA want.

>

No, humility is required to become a good grouper. There is a bit about

this at:

http://www.aakills.com/books/revealed.htm

where the origins of AA in the Oxford Group are discussed.

> If one is not humble but

> doesn't drink then he is merely dry. An active alcoholic doesn't know

anything about these things and is very unlikely to refrain from drinking

> without the help of others, which is the main focus of AA.

>

Actually, about 70% of people stop or moderate their drinking on their

own. The only way anyone could possibly " recover " alone is on a

deserted island with no one present. A much healthier way to recover is

to adopt the attitudes of those to whom alcohol is irrelevant to their

lives, not those who continuously obsess about it.

> Politics and squabbling aren't what AA, recovery or life is all about.

Helping others

> and the self is what its about. If the tenants of AA are mistranslated, then

argue with that, and if those tenants are wrong, then point that out

> too, but don't make things up. Turning it over means giving up control -

becoming dependent on others (and God if you swing that way) until

> you are capable of being dependent on yourself. If you want to place your

life in the hands of an active alcoholic, go for it.

>

The choices, no matter what you have been led to believe, are not

" active alcoholic " or good grouper. The real world is not so narrow, so

black and white. As a matter of fact, according to AA board member

Vaillant's research, those who go to AA not only have no better

success at remaining abstinent than those who refuse to go, but AA seems

to almost totally wipe out the moderation-recovery category. So with

AA, people do worse overall.

>

> The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of

thinking we were at when we created them.

> --Albert Einstein

>

> >the steps have nothing, i repeat nothing, to do with alcoholism.

> >they are formula for religious conversion at the beginning and

> >they still are 60 years later.

>

> You seem too adament about all of this. Have you sought professional

help?

>

You will find the origins of your charge of the need for professional

health in the words of Buchman, Bill 's spiritual leader at

the above mentioned URL.

> We can just split hairs here if you want. Why say

> something so absolute, and thus so ridiculous? The steps have a whole lot to

do with alcoholism. First and foremost, lest you forget, they

> are merely suggestions.

>

They are " merely suggestions " which if one doesn't follow, they are

supposedly condemning themselves to " jails, institutions and death. "

Of course AA is a religious program even if one of their most fervently

held religious beliefs (and clichés) is that they are " spiritual, not

religious. " That is obvious to most anyone who is not a member,

including several state Supreme Court rulings.

> The first step pertains to almost any person with any disorder, addiction etc.

The following steps are not religous as

> religion must have some type of deity. The steps are a formula for success...

not even original thoughts of Dr Bob or Bill W - these steps

> were taken from various forms of what we now call self help (it was not so

common, but it was starting out). These were steps that these

> guys found to work, on themselves and a hell of a lot of other people!

>

No, the Steps are the codification of the Oxford Group's " spiritual

principles. " Bill first asked American Oxford Group leader Sam

Shoemaker to write them but Shoemaker thought that could do a

better job because of the Oxford Group belief of " like working with

like " (the origin of " one alcoholic working with another " ).

>

> >for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to

> >god or other supposed " higher being " ) you have to create the need.

>

> Millions of alcoholics who could/can not stop drinking alone was/is the

need.

>

Does that mean that the Moonies, who probably have millions of members

but members who moderate alcohol/drug use rather than abstain works

better than AA or is somehow more powerful because alcoholics and

addicts in the Moonies manage to abstain?

>

> >if i believe in myself to " restore " my sanity, there is no need for god.

>

> That sounds great, too, but a number of people will tell you they were

unable to " restore " their sanity without outside help...

>

And at every Wednesday-night prayer meeting one will hear testimonials

about how they've been saved only by the Grace of God and it only could

have happened in that particular religious sect.

The reason why we have an FDA is because people have been very easily

fooled by snake oil salesmen.

> AA is indeed a

> good place to go for that help. Keep believing in yourself, I have no reason

to disbelieve that you can do it alone, but I don't see your purpose

> in continuing to fashion falsehoods about a program that helps people!

>

How is AA a good place to go? According to their own statistics,

virtually everyone drops out in the first year and of those who do stay,

a large number binge drinks from time to time. The results are so bad,

that AA now refuses to release the data from their triennial membership

survey to even alcoholism researchers and only releases a glossy

pamphlet that glosses over the fact of monumental failure.

One to two million people are coerced into step groups every year. If

they are so great, how come there are still " drinking alcoholics " left?

>

> >No need

> >for god!? that blasphemy!

>

> In some parts of the world there is " good AA " and other parts just have AA.

I have excused myself from anything that I did not consider

> good AA. I have never heard anyone act that way towards an agnostic at a good

AA group, or even a bad one for that matter.

>

> >so to create the need, you have to

> >believe the you are

> >powerless,

>

> Are you sober? Are you drinking? If your sober (and an alcoholic), how

can you not admit that, for a time, you were powerless over

> alcohol? If you are an alcoholic, and if you drink, you are powerless over it

- thats what an alcoholic is - someone who is powerless over

> alcohol! What is your definition? If you don't beleive you are powerless,

then what do you believe you are?

>

You just gave the AA definition of alcoholic which is identical to

Oxford Group's definition of " wretched sinner. "

> >you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

> Do you believe you differently? I believe alcholism is terminal. I have

been sober enough and alive enough to see that alcoholic people

> remain alcholic. If you want to be the guinea pig who proves differently,

then by all means, go for it.

>

> >believe without the god belief system you will die.

>

> Where do you get this? I am still agnostic, although AA got me sober. I

don't spout off about how horrible it is. It helped me get sober,

> and fuck you, I am grateful for it.

>

> >the steps

> >accomplish that fairly well. if

> >its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to

> >begin with?

>

> HE WASN'T - CAN'T YOU READ? MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO GO TO AN AA MEETING - THEY

WILL

> READ IT TO YOU.

>

Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves . . .

Why is Power capitalized? Could they be talking about Him?

Step 3: . . . turn our will and lives over to the care of God . . .

There's God.

Step 5: Admitted to God . . .

And again.

Step 6: Were entirely ready to have God . . .

Step 7: Humbly asked Him . . .

Anywhere else that Him even uncapitalized is referring to doorknob or

bedpan?

Step 11: Him, God and His

How is God _not_ there?

>

> You can't have it both ways. You keep mentioning the steps saying all

these things that they do not say. Yes, Bill W and Dr Bob were

> both " believers " (in God) but they made a lot of allowances for people who did

not and would not accept a God.

>

They made allowances in the sense that they found they could better

convert with the " any concept of God you think might exist " idea. A

tremendous amount was written about the importance of this for

conversion in the Oxford Group literature, most particularly by Sam

Shoemaker.

> Your saying that AA forces

> religion is bullshit, and unless you can come up with some good support for

your arguments, I am going to killfile you. As Bill W is a believer,

> and a prolific writer, I am not at all surprised that you can find lots of

examples where he mentions God. But that doesn't have anything to do

> with your curreent argument - AA doesn't force God on people... AA doesn't

force anything on people... indubitably individuals attempt to

> force all kinds of things on others. For example you are trying to force the

idea that AA is this horrible cult, and I am trying to force some

> reason into your noggin. I wish you would calm down and try to say whatever

it is you mean to say without all the anger and resentment.

> And if you mean to say that AA is a horrible cult, please tell me why you have

such an absurd idea.

>

I think you are the person who is not calm.

>

> It sounds like you suffered some sort of trauma at the hands of some AA

people?? Thanks for answering my question, now that I read your

> whole post I guess you were talking to me. I am glad you think its a good

idea for me to think for myself than to be fed what to think. I do

> think for myself. I have a year sober, not much really, and I have attended

one AA meeting in the past six months, not bragging not feeling

> guilt, just telling you a fact. I have thought about going and picking up a 1

year chip but I haven't yet. I still haven't decided if I am going to. I

> have my own reasons for not going to meetings.

>

There are many reasons to not go. It is just a terrible shame that

people are led to believe they'll die if they don't go.

> I hope you don't think I have been defending AA in this reply; I have been

defending reality -

>

You have been defending the AA reality.

> meaning I believe you are making things up - things that are unreal - if I saw

these things in AA, I would have to agree with you and I would

> likely complain, too, but I have not. I have seen other things I didn't like

and I will be glad to tell you sometime. If you are complaining about

> people not thinking for themselves, I think you need to start somewhere much

more basic than AA... there are much larger, much more

> dangerous and much more destructive organizations and institutions in this

world. Why not target them? Which side are you on boy?

>

The step groups are participants in the coercion of one to two million

people into step indoctrination. People have been imprisoned, lost

their families, lost their jobs, even been refused life-saving medical

care for refusing to " internalize spiritual principles. " Of course

you've seen none of this. The AA traditions were very carefully set up

to keep this separate and hidden from not only from the general public

but, in practical effect, from most members. Who do you think NCADD and

ASAM are? ( http://www.ncadd.org )

Ken Ragge

>

> Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

>

> for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to

> god or other supposed " higher being " ) you have to create the

> need. if i believe in

> myself to " restore " my sanity, there is no need for god. No need

> for god!? that blasphemy! so to create the need, you have to

> believe the you are

> powerless, you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

> believe without the god belief system you will die. the steps

> accomplish that fairly well. if

> its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to

> begin with?

>

> AA likes to claim its " spiritual not religious " because you can

> " make anything your hp " , as if this alone make sit a non religious

> belief system they are proposing.

>

> these quote from bill seem to cast doubt on that

> revisionist history of AA:

>

> Bill and Dr. Bob

> Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in March, 1943

>

> Bill :

> " Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset... "

> An alcoholic is a fellow who is " trying to get his religion out of a

> bottle, " when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity

> with God. . . "

> " There is a definite religious element here,

>

> Dr. Bob:

> " Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate

> the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of

> Alcoholics Anonymous to others. " The paper added: " He

> particularly recommended reading the Bible. "

>

> LIVING CREATOR GOD:

> from " There is a Solution "

> " it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or

> color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form

> a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon

> as we are willing and honest enough to try. "

> ------

>

> hmmm. seems no mater how willing and honest i am, a door

> knob and ash tray aren't my " living creator "

>

> suppose we were talking about a religious sect of snake

> handlers, and they claimed by handling the snake, you would

> have the power of the snake god to

> " restore your sanity " . but i tell them don't like snake handling,

> its

> a religious belief and has nothing to do with my alcoholism. they

> tell me to pretend the

> snake is anything i want, just as long as i continue to handle the

> snake and belief it will restore my sanity. if i do so, is it any

> less a

> religious act on my

> part? am i not being told to make a leap of faith in the snake, and

> to believe my " restored " sanity is creditable to the snake?

>

> if i fail to remain sober, i will be told the " program is perfect'

> and

> that i must not have been handling the snake right. im also told

> that to stray away from

> the snake , would mean facing institutions, jails or death. that the

> only way i could keep what i got, to keep my sanity was to

> continue to cary the message

> of the snake.

>

> do you think many people would think that what i just described

> wasnt a religious cult, but a " spiritual " fellowship? do you think

> the supreme court

> would let that be taught in public schools? do you think the

> christian coalition would like that? why wouldnt they if it was only

> " spirtual " and not

> relgious?

>

> to answer your question, what comes after AA is to start thinking

> for yourself agian, as opposed to being fed what to think.

>

October 9, 2000

" there are much larger, much more dangerous and much

more destructive organizations and institutions in this world. Why

not target them? Which side are you on boy? "

There may be cults which are more abusive than AA, although AA is

horribly abusive, but AA is the most dangerous cult in the world for

one simple reason; it is promoted with billions of dollars by the

wealthiest and most powerful government in the world, the U.S. I am

on the side of the U.S. Constitution and this promotion is quite

unconstitutional.

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/index.html

http://rational.org/recovery/Cult.html

October 9, 2000

i dont know why i bothered to respond to you, you are without

manners, you asked a question and i fairly and without malice

answered it. for this, in your

reply to me, you questioned my sanity, my sobriety, my ability to

read the word god in steps, and insulted me with 'fuck you " . just

what i would have expected.

>

> Hey, sounds good and all, for a sane person. But what about

an active alcoholic? First of all, active alcoholics do not take

responsibility for themselves,

their actions or their (lack of) sanity.

they get themselves into AA at some point don't they? they seek

help don't they? they make a choice to stop drinking and so so at

some point if they are to

get sober don't they? that is taking responsibility. no one ,

absolutely no one get sober without taking responsibility so

themselves.

AA sabotages self responsibility by asking people to turn it over

to something else.

>Secondly, they can NOT trust themselves to do what is best for

them.

sez who? you? bill wilson? sounds like what a cult would say to

retain recruits. if i though what you teach, i probably would go out

and drink. of course

they can trust themselves, assuming they went into AA willingly

or treatment, they obviously were trust worthy enough to do that

for themselves.

unfortunately once they get there, they are TAUGHT otherwise.

the oxford group, believed anyone who wasn't god controlled

was literally insane and a

public enemy, this is why a god in steps is said to restore us to

sanity, not because alcoholics ae insane, but because the non

god controlled are insane.

>Self empowerment is what they need, but they are in no

position to acquire it.

that is AA bullshit. to decide not not to drink and to follow thru on

your choice IS self empowerment. only in AA do people like you

teach others they are

incapable of doing that most basic of human actions for

themselves, and thas must strip self responsibly away and

create depend ecny on " higher " forces

to do it for them and take responsibility. AA strips self

empowerment away and self responsibility , and replaces it

worth powerlessness and group/hp

dependency

It teaches self respect, but it also teaches the required

humility...

and humility is REQUIRED to move from the state of insanity to

the state of sanity that

alcoholics who seek out AA want.

sez who? they seek out AA because they are told its for

alcoholism, hot humility. they often don't seek out aa at all, but

are forced into it by courts.

>f one is not humble but doesn't drink then he is merely dry.

sez who again? everything you say is straight from oxford group

teachings and has NOTHING to do with alcoholism, but more

with they require

suppression of self require for god control. why are you here

again?

>An active alcoholic doesn't know anything about these things

and is very unlikely to refrain from drinking without the help of

others, which is the main

focus of AA.

funny, aa has no more success than no treatment all. there is no

a single study which can demonstrate aa is more effective than

non treatment. nor do other

sobriety groups share aa's teachings that humility is required, or

the fallacy of a dry drunk. these are concepts which are unique to

AA dogma.

AA as you have shown, is not self help, its self helplessness.

>Politics and squabbling aren't what AA, recovery or life is all

about. Helping others and the self is what its about.

>by teaching them they are powerless, diseased, ego maniacs,

insane and incapable of staying sane with aa's " spirituality is

help, no thank you.

>If the tenants of AA are mistranslated, then argue with that, and

if those tenants are wrong, then point that out too, but don't make

things up.

what exactly did i make up? what part of this quote did i

mistranslate?

" Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset... "

An alcoholic is a fellow who is " trying to get his religion out of a

bottle, " when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity

with God. . . . "

" There is a definite religious element here, -Bill :

" Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate

the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of

Alcoholics Anonymous to others. " The paper added: " He

particularly recommended reading the Bible. " -Dr. Bob:

LIVING CREATOR GOD:

from " There is a Solution "

" it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or

color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form

a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon

as we are willing and

honest enough to try. "

>Turning it over means giving up control - becoming dependent

on others (and God if you swing that way) until you are capable of

being dependent on

>yourself. If you want to place your life in the hands of an active

alcoholic, go for it.

i don't need to place my life in anyone's hands. you are one

making things up. where does it say anywhere about " becoming

dependent on others " or

turning your will over to an individual and not god, or some

Higher Power or Creator in big book? exactly where?

> >the steps have nothing, i repeat nothing, to do with

alcoholism.

> >they are formula for religious conversion at the beginning and

> >they still are 60 years later.

>

> You seem too adamant about all of this. Have you sought

professional help?

this is not worth responding to, why are you on this list again.

you asked me a question and answered fairly, and for this you

insult me? i have no

interest in reading anything else you may write to me. of course

im adamant, im speaking the truth. how many times is alcohol

mentioned in steps? how

many times is god? have you sought a reading comprehension

class?

>We can just split hairs here if you want.

i have no need to split anything, the steps speak for themselves.

they are clearly a formula for religious conversion

>Why say something so absolute, and thus so ridiculous? The

steps have a whole lot to do with alcoholism.

where in steps does it say, we decided to stop drinking? where

does it say " Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to

the care of God " ?

your one is is ridiculous. your arguments may work on a fresh

and desperate drunk, but not someone capable of clear thinking.

>First and foremost, lest you forget, they are merely suggestions.

they are what they are. suggestions, orders, whatever, they are a

formula for conversion. calling the " suggestions " doesn't change

that fact. they aren't

called the " 12 suggestions " . if they are suggestions, then it also

must be a suggestion that to not flow them leads to jails,

institutions and death.

>The first step pertains to almost any person with any disorder,

addiction etc.

once again, teaching powerlessness is counter productive,

unless of course you need to be powerless in order for god to

take control

>The following steps are not religious as religion must have

some type of deity.

Buddhism doesn't have a deity. Buddha was a philosopher, not

a god. and they clearly have a deity, God.

>The steps are a formula for success...

in your opinion. you haven't offered anything from bill

which refutes what i have said or quoted

not even original thoughts of Dr >Bob or Bill W - these steps

were taken from various forms of what we now call self help (it

was not so common, but it

>was starting out). These were >steps that these guys found to

work, on themselves and a hell of a lot of other people!

you dont even know your own history of AA. they come from not

various forms of self help, but from the Oxford group and bible.

" The specific Biblical ideas taken from these sources were later

embodied in A.A.'s basic text Alcoholics Anonymous, in its

Twelve Steps, and in its

Fellowship. Those six sources were (1) The Bible. (2) Quiet

Time and the daily devotionals. (3) The teachings of the

Reverend M. Shoemaker,

Jr.. (4) The life-changing program of the Oxford Group. (5) The

details recorded by Co-founder Dr. Bob's wife in Anne 's

Journal, 1933-1939. (6)

The Christian literature early AAs read for spiritual growth "

source:http://www.dickb.com/

they also hurt a hell of allot of people, namley the ones who

couldn't buy into AA's religious teachings, and who were told

they should go back out and

come back in when they were ready.

>

> >for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to

> >god or other supposed " higher being " ) you have to create the

need.

>

> Millions of alcoholics who could/can not stop drinking alone

was/is the need.

no, they all stopped drinking on their own, unless of course you

believe god, santa Claus or ashtrays literally stopped them from

picking up. the need was

bill wilson need to proselytize.

>

> >if i believe in myself to " restore " my sanity, there is no need

for

god.

>

> That sounds great, too, but a number of people will tell you

they were unable to " restore " their sanity without outside help...

AA is indeed a good place

to go for that help. Keep believing in yourself, I have no reason to

disbelieve that you can do it alone, but I don't see your purpose

in continuing to

fashion falsehoods about a program that helps people!

>

what have i said or quoted which is false? i said it was religious.

bill wilson said it was religious. was he being false when he

said There is a definite

religious element here, " ?

>

> >No need

> >for god!? that blasphemy!

>

> In some parts of the world there is " good AA " and other parts

just have AA. I have excused myself from anything that I did not

consider good AA. I

have never heard anyone act that way towards an agnostic at a

good AA group, or even a bad one for that matter.

i was being dramatic rather than literal, sorry if i was unclear. but

the truth of what i wrote comes through in your arguments.

perhaps if i said " no need

for steps or higher power!?!? that blasphemy! " you would have

understood.

>

> >so to create the need, you have to

> believe the you are

> >powerless,

> Are you sober? Are you drinking? If your sober (and an

alcoholic), how can you not admit that, for a time, you were

powerless over alcohol? If you

> are an alcoholic, and if you drink, you are powerless over it -

thats what an alcoholic is - someone who is powerless over

alcohol! What is your >

definition? If you don't believe you are powerless, then what do

you believe you are?

once again, you insult me. every alcoholic who quits drinking,

every alcoholic, choose to stop drinking and does so. nothing

powerless about that fits any

definition of powerless i have ever seen.

every human being has the control of what they put into their

bodies, its matter if they have motivation to change their

behavior.

the only reason word powerless is even used, is to justify god

control. there is no need for god control is you are not powerless.

the oxford group taught

this as a path towards god control and AA 12-steps copied

oxford group teachings

>

> >you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

>

> Do you believe you differently? I believe alcholism is

terminal. I have been sober enough and alive enough to see

that alcoholic people remain

alcoholic. If you want to be the guinea pig who proves differently,

then by all means, go for it.

i stopped being alcoholic when i stopped drinking. no doctor on

planet ,if they were to examine me could say, " your an alcoholic "

because i stopped being

" alcoholic " when i was no longer chemically or emotionally

dependent upon alcohol. AA biggest lie was to convince million

of people they we incurable

to perpetually justify their continued membership and practicing

of steps. my name is dave, im a sober human being. i WAS an

alcoholic.

> >believe without the god belief system you will die.

>

> Where do you get this? I am still agnostic, although AA got

me sober. I don't spout off about how horrible it is. It helped me

get sober, and fuck

you, I am grateful for it.

once gain, you viciously insult me. why? i wasn't attacking your

beliefs, only stating mine, and for this you say " fuck you " to me?

>

> >the steps

> >accomplish that fairly well. if

> >its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps

to

> >begin with?

>

> HE WASN'T - CAN'T YOU READ? MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO GO

TO AN AA MEETING - THEY WILL READ IT TO YOU.

i can read, but im not sure you can. my question was, if it wasn't

about god, why was god in steps to begin with. lets count out

how many times God is

referred to, shall we?

AA's 12 STEPS

1.

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives

had become unmanageable.

2.

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could

restore us to sanity.

3.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care

of

God as we understood Him.

4.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5.

Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the

exact nature of our wrongs.

6.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of

character.

7.

Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8.

Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing

to make amends to them all.

9.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except

when to do so would injure them or others.

10.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were

wrong promptly admitted it.

11.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our

conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only

for knowledge

of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps,

we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice

these principles in all our affairs.

>

> You can't have it both ways.

> You keep mentioning the steps saying all these things that

they do not say. Yes, Bill W and Dr Bob were both " believers " (in

God) but they made a lot

> of allowances for people who did not and would not accept a

God. Your saying that AA forces religion is bullshit, and unless

you can come up with > >

> some good support for your arguments, I am going to killfile

you.

killfile me? be my guest and save me trouble doing it to you. i

dont feelliek being atatced for answering questions. my

arguments are clear, yours are a

struggle against the english language.

> As Bill W is a believer, and a prolific writer, I am not at all

surprised that you can find lots of examples where he mentions

God.

i can hardly find any which he DOESN'T

>But that doesn't have anything to do with your curreent

argument - AA doesn't force God on people... AA doesn't force

anything on people..

tell that to peopl who are court ordered. tell that to people who

are told they will destrory themselves with out AA and the steps.

AA preys upon people in

the most vulnerable places in their lives in order to use it as an

opportunity to inject thier god control belief sytems.

>indubitably individuals attempt to force all kinds of things on

others. For example you are trying to force the idea that AA is this

horrible cult, and I am

>trying to force some reason into your noggin. I wish you would

calm down and try to say whatever it is you mean to say without

all the anger and

>resentment. And if you mean to say that AA is a horrible cult,

please tell me why you have such an absurd idea.

i just did. twice.look up word of cult in dictionary. ah hell, here

ya

go

cult (klt)

n.

1.

a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be

extremist or false, with its followers often living in an

unconventional manner under the guidance

of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

b. The followers of such a religion or sect.

2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious

ceremony and ritual.

4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its

originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a

particular disease.

5.

a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a

person, principle, or thing.

b. The object of such devotion.

6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually

artistic or intellectual interest.

you wish i would calm down? who are yu kidding? my awnser to

your question was wriiten with the utermost scincerity. i wss

angry. your one who has

been angry and resentful. my word, what a world you live in. yo

insult my intelligence, my sanity, my reading ability and you said

fuck you to boot!

>

> It sounds like you suffered some sort of trauma at the hands

of some AA people?? Thanks for answering my question, now

that I read your whole

post I guess you were talking to me.

so did you decide to insult me before or after you read whole

thing?

> I have thought about going and picking up a 1 year chip but I

haven't yet. I still haven't decided if I am going to. I have my

own

reasons for not going >

to meetings. I hope you don't think I have been defending AA in

this reply; I have been defending reality - meaning I believe you

are making things up -

nothing i wrote was " making things up " . maybe you should read

up on aa hsitory and oxford group before you claim that. i offered

as evidence the

words of bill wilson , dr. bob, the 12-steps and big book to

support my argument. you offered no eviidence, denied the

evident use of god in steps and

were insulting.

October 9, 2000

(sorry for double post, i wanted to clean up my typos)

i dont know why i bothered to respond to you, you are with out

manners, you asked a question and i fairly ad with out malice

answered it. for this, in your

reply to me, you question my sanity, my sobriety, my ability to

read the word god in steps, and insult me with 'fuck you " . just

what i would have expected

from a stepper.

>

> Hey, sounds good and all, for a sane person. But what about

an active alcoholic? First of all, active alcoholics do not take

responsibility for themselves,

their actions or their (lack of) sanity.

they get themselves into AA at some point don't they? they seek

help don't they? they make a choice to stop drinking and do so at

some point if they are to

get sober don't they? that is taking responsibility. no one ,

absolutely no one gets sober without taking responsibility to

themselves.

AA sabotages self responsibility by asking people to turn it over

to something else.

>Secondly, they can NOT trust themselves to do what is best for

them.

sez who? you? bill wilson? sounds like what a cult would say to

retain recruits. if i thought what you teach, i probably would go out

and drink. of course they

can trust themselves, assuming they went into AA willingly or

treatment, they obviously were trust worthy enough to do that for

themselves. unfortunately

once they get there, they are TAUGHT otherwise. the oxford

group, believed anyone who wasn't god controlled was literally

insane and a public enemy, this

is why god is in steps i and s said to restore us to sanity, not

because alcoholics are insane, but because the non-god

controlled are insane.

>Self empowerment is what they need, but they are in no

position to acquire it.

that is AA bullshit. to decide not not to drink and to follow thru on

your choice IS self empowerment. only in AA do people like you

teach others they are

incapable of doing that most basic of human actions for

themselves, and they must strip self responsibly away and

create dependency on " higher " forces to

do it for them and take responsibility. AA strips self

empowerment away and self responsibility , and replaces it with

powerlessness and group/hp

dependency

>It teaches self respect, but it also teaches the required

humility... and humility is REQUIRED to move from the state of

insanity to the state of sanity that

>alcoholics who seek out AA want.

sez who? they seek out AA because they are told its for

alcoholism, not humility. they often don't seek out aa at all, but

are forced into it by courts.

>f one is not humble but doesn't drink then he is merely dry.

sez who again? everything you say is straight from oxford group

teachings and has NOTHING to do with alcoholism, but more

with the required

suppression of self for god control. why are you here again?

>An active alcoholic doesn't know anything about these things

and is very unlikely to refrain from drinking without the help of

others, which is the main

focus of AA.

funny, aa has no more success than no treatment all. there is no

a single study which can demonstrate aa is more effective than

non treatment. nor do other

sobriety groups share aa's teachings that humility is required, or

the fallacy of a " dry drunk " . these are concepts which are unique

to AA dogma.

AA as you have shown, is not self help, its self helplessness.

>Politics and squabbling aren't what AA, recovery or life is all

about. Helping others and the self is what its about.

>by teaching them they are powerless, diseased, ego maniacs,

insane and incapable of staying sane with aa's " spirituality is

help, no thank you.

>If the tenants of AA are mistranslated, then argue with that, and

if those tenants are wrong, then point that out too, but don't make

things up.

what exactly did i make up? what part of this quote did i

mistranslate?

" Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset... "

An alcoholic is a fellow who is " trying to get his religion out of a

bottle, " when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity

with God. . . . "

" There is a definite religious element here, -Bill :

" Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate

the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of

Alcoholics Anonymous to others. " The paper added: " He

particularly recommended reading the Bible. " -Dr. Bob:

LIVING CREATOR GOD:

from " There is a Solution "

" it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or

color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form

a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon

as we are willing and honest

enough to try. "

>Turning it over means giving up control - becoming dependent

on others (and God if you swing that way) until you are capable of

being dependent on

>yourself. If you want to place your life in the hands of an active

alcoholic, go for it.

i don't need to place my life in anyone's hands. you are one

making things up. where does it say anywhere about " becoming

dependent on others " or turning

your will over to an individual and not god, or some Higher Power

or Creator in big book? exactly where?

> >the steps have nothing, i repeat nothing, to do with

alcoholism.

> >they are formula for religious conversion at the beginning and

> >they still are 60 years later.

>

> You seem too adamant about all of this. Have you sought

professional help?

this is not worth responding to, why are you on this list again.

you asked me a question and answered fairly, and for this you

insult me? i have no interest in

reading anything else you may write to me. of course im

adamant, im speaking the truth. how many times is alcohol

mentioned in steps? how many times is

god? have you sought a reading comprehension class?

>We can just split hairs here if you want.

i have no need to split anything, the steps speak for themselves.

they are clearly a formula for religious conversion

>Why say something so absolute, and thus so ridiculous? The

steps have a whole lot to do with alcoholism.

where in steps does it say, we decided to stop drinking? where

does it say " Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to

the care of God " ?

your one who is ridiculous. your arguments may work on a fresh

and desperate drunk, but not someone capable of clear thinking.

>First and foremost, lest you forget, they are merely suggestions.

they are what they are. suggestions, orders, whatever, they are a

formula for conversion. calling the " suggestions " doesn't change

that fact. they aren't called

the " 12 suggestions " . if they are suggestions, then it also must

be a suggestion that to not flow them leads to jails, institutions

and death.

>The first step pertains to almost any person with any disorder,

addiction etc.

once again, teaching powerlessness is counter productive,

unless of course you need to be powerless in order for god to

take control

>The following steps are not religious as religion must have

some type of deity.

Buddhism doesn't have a deity. Buddha was a philosopher, not

a god. and they clearly have a deity, God, a god who is a " living

creator "

>The steps are a formula for success...

in your opinion. you haven't offered anything from bill

which refutes what i have said or quoted

not even original thoughts of Dr >Bob or Bill W - these steps

were taken from various forms of what we now call self help (it

was not so common, but it

>was starting out). These were >steps that these guys found to

work, on themselves and a hell of a lot of other people!

you dont even know your own history of AA. they come from not

various forms of self help, but from the Oxford group and bible.

" The specific Biblical ideas taken from these sources were later

embodied in A.A.'s basic text Alcoholics Anonymous, in its

Twelve Steps, and in its

Fellowship. Those six sources were (1) The Bible. (2) Quiet

Time and the daily devotionals. (3) The teachings of the

Reverend M. Shoemaker, Jr..

(4) The life-changing program of the Oxford Group. (5) The

details recorded by Co-founder Dr. Bob's wife in Anne 's

Journal, 1933-1939. (6) The

Christian literature early AAs read for spiritual growth "

source:http://www.dickb.com/

they also hurt a hell of allot of people, namley the ones who

couldn't buy into AA's religious teachings, and who were told

they should go back out and come

back in when they were ready.

>

> >for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to

> >god or other supposed " higher being " ) you have to create the

need.

>

> Millions of alcoholics who could/can not stop drinking alone

was/is the need.

no, they all stopped drinking on their own, unless of course you

believe god, santa Claus or ashtrays literally stopped them from

picking up. the need was bill

wilson need to proselytize.

>

> >if i believe in myself to " restore " my sanity, there is no need

for

god.

>

> That sounds great, too, but a number of people will tell you

they were unable to " restore " their sanity without outside help...

AA is indeed a good place to

go for that help. Keep believing in yourself, I have no reason to

disbelieve that you can do it alone, but I don't see your purpose

in continuing to fashion

falsehoods about a program that helps people!

>

what have i said or quoted which is false? i said it was religious.

bill wilson said it was religious. was he being false when he

said " There is a definite

religious element here, " ?

>

> >No need

> >for god!? that blasphemy!

>

> In some parts of the world there is " good AA " and other parts

just have AA. I have excused myself from anything that I did not

consider good AA. I

have never heard anyone act that way towards an agnostic at a

good AA group, or even a bad one for that matter.

i was being dramatic rather than literal, sorry if i was unclear. but

the truth of what i wrote comes through in your arguments.

perhaps if i said " no need for

steps or higher power!?!? that blasphemy! " you would have

understood.

>

> >so to create the need, you have to

> believe the you are

> >powerless,

> Are you sober? Are you drinking? If your sober (and an

alcoholic), how can you not admit that, for a time, you were

powerless over alcohol? If you >

are an alcoholic, and if you drink, you are powerless over it -

thats what an alcoholic is - someone who is powerless over

alcohol! What is your > definition?

> If you don't believe you are powerless, then what do you believe

you are?

once again, you insult me. every alcoholic who quits drinking,

every alcoholic, choose to stop drinking and does so. nothing

powerless about that fits any

definition of powerless i have ever seen.

every human being has the control of what they put into their

bodies, its matter if they have motivation to change their

behavior.

the only reason word powerless is even used, is to justify god

control. there is no need for god control is you are not powerless.

the oxford group taught this

as a path towards god control and AA 12-steps copied oxford

group teachings

>

> >you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

>

> Do you believe you differently? I believe alcoholism is

terminal. I have been sober enough and alive enough to see

that alcoholic people remain

alcoholic. If you want to be the guinea pig who proves differently,

then by all means, go for it.

i stopped being alcoholic when i stopped drinking. no doctor on

planet ,if they were to examine me could say, " your an alcoholic "

because i stopped being

" alcoholic " when i was no longer chemically or emotionally

dependent upon alcohol. AA 's biggest lie was to convince

million of people they we incurable to

perpetually justify their continued membership and practicing of

steps. my name is dave, im a sober human being. i WAS an

alcoholic. my former habit is

not my identity

> >believe without the god belief system you will die.

>

> Where do you get this? I am still agnostic, although AA got

me sober. I don't spout off about how horrible it is. It helped me

get sober, and fuck you, I

am grateful for it.

once gain, you viciously insult me. why? i wasn't attacking your

beliefs, only stating mine, and for this you say " fuck you " to me?

>

> >the steps

> >accomplish that fairly well. if

> >its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps

to

> >begin with?

>

> HE WASN'T - CAN'T YOU READ? MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO GO

TO AN AA MEETING - THEY WILL READ IT TO YOU.

i can read, but im not sure you can. my question was, if it wasn't

about god, why was god in steps to begin with. lets count out

how many times God is

referred to, shall we?

AA's 12 STEPS

1.

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives

had become unmanageable.

2.

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could

restore us to sanity.

3.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care

of

God as we understood Him.

4.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5.

Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the

exact nature of our wrongs.

6.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of

character.

7.

Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8.

Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing

to make amends to them all.

9.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except

when to do so would injure them or others.

10.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were

wrong promptly admitted it.

11.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our

conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only

for knowledge

of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps,

we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice

these principles in all our affairs.

>

> You can't have it both ways.

> You keep mentioning the steps saying all these things that

they do not say. Yes, Bill W and Dr Bob were both " believers " (in

God) but they made a lot >

of allowances for people who did not and would not accept a

God. Your saying that AA forces religion is bullshit, and unless

you can come up with > > >

some good support for your arguments, I am going to killfile you.

killfile me? be my guest and save me trouble doing it to you. i

dont feel like being attacked for answering questions. my

arguments are clear, yours are a

struggle against the english language.

> As Bill W is a believer, and a prolific writer, I am not at all

surprised that you can find lots of examples where he mentions

God.

i can hardly find any which he DOESN'T

>But that doesn't have anything to do with your current argument

- AA doesn't force God on people... AA doesn't force anything on

people..

tell that to people who are court ordered. tell that to people who

are told they will destroy themselves with out AA and the steps.

AA preys upon people in the

most vulnerable places in their lives in order to use it as an

opportunity to inject their god control belief systems.

>indubitably individuals attempt to force all kinds of things on

others. For example you are trying to force the idea that AA is this

horrible cult, and I am

>trying to force some reason into your noggin. I wish you would

calm down and try to say whatever it is you mean to say without

all the anger and

>resentment. And if you mean to say that AA is a horrible cult,

please tell me why you have such an absurd idea.

i just did. twice.look up word of cult in dictionary. ah hell, here

ya

go

cult (klt)

n.

1.

a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be

extremist or false, with its followers often living in an

unconventional manner under the guidance of

an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

b. The followers of such a religion or sect.

2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious

ceremony and ritual.

4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its

originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a

particular disease.

5.

a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a

person, principle, or thing.

b. The object of such devotion.

6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually

artistic or intellectual interest.

you wish i would calm down? who are you kidding? my answer

to your question was written with the uttermost sincerity. i was

angry. your one who has

been angry and resentful. my word, what a world you live in. yo

insult my intelligence, my sanity, my reading ability and you said

fuck you to boot!

>

> It sounds like you suffered some sort of trauma at the hands

of some AA people?? Thanks for answering my question, now

that I read your whole post I

guess you were talking to me.

so did you decide to insult me before or after you read whole

thing?

> I have thought about going and picking up a 1 year chip but I

haven't yet. I still haven't decided if I am going to. I have my

own

reasons for not going > to

meetings. I hope you don't think I have been defending AA in this

reply; I have been defending reality - meaning I believe you are

making things up -

nothing i wrote was " making things up " . maybe you should read

up on aa history and oxford group before you claim that. i offered

as evidence the words of

bill wilson , dr. bob, the 12-steps and big book to support my

argument. you offered no evidence, denied the evident use of

god in steps and were insulting.

October 9, 2000

-----Original Message-----From: coolguy Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 8:46 PMTo: 12-step-freeegroupsSubject: Re: Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

> If the tenants of AA are mistranslated, then argue with that, and if those tenants are wrong, then point that out too, but don't make things up.

He isn't making this up and AA's dogma isn't being mistranslated. AA's are doing what the dogma intends them to do convert, convert, convert. Haven't been there long enough for the conversion to happen? Don't worry we've got the answer for you to. its: Don't leave before the miracle happens.

> > the steps have nothing, i repeat nothing, to do with alcoholism. > > they are formula for religious conversion at the beginning and > > they still are 60 years later.

> You seem too adament about all of this. Have you sought professional help? We can just split hairs here if you want.

And steppers are adamant that they have a disease. And docs are adamant that what AA's have is a mental disorder. And I'm adamant that AA's need to believe that to drum up business for AA and the docs need that to drum up business for themselves. Both are robbing you. One steals your power over people places and things and the other takes you're money for providing a service most of us can do for ourselves. Me I just changed my behavior. It's much easier that way and ultimately more fulfilling and self empowering.

I don't see him splitting any hairs here.

> Why say something so absolute, and thus so ridiculous?

I don't see it as ridiculous at all. AA's own history, documentation and publications support this assertion.

> The steps have a whole lot to do with alcoholism. First and foremost, lest you forget, they are merely suggestions.

Suggestions? Well if you aren't working the steps than you aren't working the program and if you aren't working the program you haven' t gotten with the program and if you haven't gotten with the program you're in denial and a dry drunk on a quick track to JI or death. Lets take a look at the steps though since you seem to feel they aren't about religious conversion.

1. admit powerlessness over an inanimate object (alcohol) I believe Ken and have established why the powerlessness is so necessary in the conversion process.

2. believe that GOD can restore them to sanity.

3. make a decision to turn their will and lives over to the care of GOD

4. Make an extensive moral inventory of themselves.

5. Admit to GOD , to themselves, and to another human being the exact nature of their wrongs. (confession)

6. Become ready to have GOD remove all their defects of character. (submission)

7. Humbly ask GOD to remove their shortcomings. (Prayer for redemption)

8. Make a list of all persons they had harmed, and become willing to make amends to them all. (prepare for restitution)

9. Make direct amends to the people listed in 8 above. (make restitution)

10. Continue to take a personal (moral) inventory and when they make mistakes promptly admit to them. ( reinforce the persons shortcomings, constantly remind yourself that you aren't good enough)

11. Seek through prayer and meditation to improve their conscious contact with GOD , praying only for knowledge of His will for them and the power to carry out that will. (remind yourself daily that only by the grace of God have you received a reprieve from your behavior...errr disease)

12. After the conversion process is complete from working the 11 previous steps, They must proselytize AA to other alcoholics, and to practice these principals in all of their affairs. (Time to pay the piper. You've received the grace of god now go out and convert others.) If they don't find any alcoholics they create them by constantly ramming the denial phrase down peoples throats until they submit to the possibility that they too have a disease. After all they must have ha vn't the government or the courts sent them to AA?

That's my take on it here's another: http://pages.about.com/robertwarner/

Cool Guy, after really having read the steps and understanding AA's history, it's truly ridiculous to insist anything but that the steps are steps to religious conversion.

> >for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to > >god or other supposed "higher being") you have to create the need.

> Millions of alcoholics who could/can not stop drinking alone was/is the need.

I take issue with that number, millions. I'm curious where did you get it? I've heard aa's define alcoholism in such a way as to literally make 90% of the world's population alcoholic. From what I've been able to gather AA's believe that everyone who ever entered through the doors of AA were alcoholic. This seems odd to me with the increasing frequency of court/military/employer ordered attendance on the rise.

Even if I were to follow along with the beginning of your statement above our logical conclusions would differ. If you're into faith healing, great good for you, but lets be honest that that's what it is.

> >No need > >for god!? that blasphemy!

> In some parts of the world there is "good AA" and other parts just have AA. I have excused myself from anything that I did not consider good AA. I have never heard

> anyone act that way towards an agnostic at a good AA group, or even a bad one for that matter.

I have heard people treated that way too many times to count in too many different meetings to count. The atheist/agnostic says his/her schpeil and a 42 year old woman and pleasant as you please says:

"My name is Martha and I'm diseased. You know I used to lie and cheat and steal and do anything to get my alcohol fix I ended up in jail too many times to count and oh what you said just scares me to death for you because I know without God, I'm sorry I mean my HP, I would be dead right now and well you remind me so much of me back then. I thank God, excuse me, my HP every day that He lead me to the light and AA and I pray to Him everyday for people like you. It just makes me so sad for you."

With four measly sentences pleasant little vicious Martha has just managed to psychically rape the previous speaker and implanted the notion that not only does that person need an HP to stay alive but that the only HP that will do is her God the Christian God.

> > you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

> Do you believe you differently? I believe alcholism is terminal. I have been sober enough and alive enough to see that alcoholic people remain alcholic. If you want

> to be the guinea pig who proves differently, then by all means, go for it.

I'm the human that has proved differently as have most of the members of this list.

> > believe without the god belief system you will die.

> Where do you get this? I am still agnostic, although AA got me sober. I don't spout off about how horrible it is. It helped me get sober, and fuck you, I am grateful for it.

Then according to Bill W you're rather vain.

"Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it?"

Well I for one take credit for my own decision and actions in curtailing my destructive drinking. If you choose to give that credit to AA so be it. The above quote from w should clearly show you that he expected your eventual conversion since you, as yet, have not converted you haven't really gotten with his program. I applaud you for that.

> > the steps > > accomplish that fairly well. if > > its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to > > begin with?

> HE WASN'T - CAN'T YOU READ? MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO GO TO AN AA MEETING - THEY WILL READ IT TO YOU.

Who's the one having difficulty reading? If you can't see the Christian god in the steps then you're as blind as a bat worse really because a bat doesn't choose to be blind it just is.

> You can't have it both ways. You keep mentioning the steps saying all these things that they do not say. Yes, Bill W and Dr Bob were both "believers" (in God)

> but they made a lot of allowances for people who did not and would not accept a God. Your saying that AA forces religion is bullshit, and unless you can come up

> with some good support for your arguments, I am going to killfile you. As Bill W is a believer, and a prolific writer, I am not at all surprised that you can find lots of

> examples where he mentions God. But that doesn't have anything to do with your curreent argument - AA doesn't force God on people... AA doesn't force anything

> on people... indubitably individuals attempt to force all kinds of things on others.

That's a no win game you're attempting to engage him in. You ask him to support his argument then immediately proceed to tell him no matter what he shows you you won't believe it. That rather convenient of you since W wrote things like this all the time:

"[W]e decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children. Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom."

> I wish you would calm down and try to say whatever it is you mean to say without all the anger and resentment.

You just told him "fuck you" and gave him the noggin crack, and now you're asking him to calm down. It's you that should calm down.

October 9, 2000

Dave, Ken, Tommy, and Doug,

Thanks for responding to 'Coolguy'. Dave, you used remarkable self-

constraint considering how you were insulted and ridiculed.

I was wondering why this character was posting on this list, until it

hit me: This is an excellent example of cult behavior. Why else

would someone venture onto a list whose philosophy speaks for itself,

and try to 'convert' its members? No one would except someone who

has been cult-brainwashed, and not particularly well, I might add,

judging by the quality of aurguments I heard.

Coolguy...I hope you don't think that anyone here is susceptible to

the garbage you are spewing out...unlike you, we are far too

intelligent for that.

Ellen

> i dont know why i bothered to respond to you, you are without

> manners, you asked a question and i fairly and without malice

> answered it. for this, in your

> reply to me, you questioned my sanity, my sobriety, my ability to

> read the word god in steps, and insulted me with 'fuck you " . just

> what i would have expected.

>

> >

> > Hey, sounds good and all, for a sane person. But what about

> an active alcoholic? First of all, active alcoholics do not take

> responsibility for themselves,

> their actions or their (lack of) sanity.

>

> they get themselves into AA at some point don't they? they seek

> help don't they? they make a choice to stop drinking and so so at

> some point if they are to

> get sober don't they? that is taking responsibility. no one ,

> absolutely no one get sober without taking responsibility so

> themselves.

> AA sabotages self responsibility by asking people to turn it over

> to something else.

>

> >Secondly, they can NOT trust themselves to do what is best for

> them.

> sez who? you? bill wilson? sounds like what a cult would say to

> retain recruits. if i though what you teach, i probably would go

out

> and drink. of course

> they can trust themselves, assuming they went into AA willingly

> or treatment, they obviously were trust worthy enough to do that

> for themselves.

> unfortunately once they get there, they are TAUGHT otherwise.

> the oxford group, believed anyone who wasn't god controlled

> was literally insane and a

> public enemy, this is why a god in steps is said to restore us to

> sanity, not because alcoholics ae insane, but because the non

> god controlled are insane.

>

> >Self empowerment is what they need, but they are in no

> position to acquire it.

> that is AA bullshit. to decide not not to drink and to follow thru

on

> your choice IS self empowerment. only in AA do people like you

> teach others they are

> incapable of doing that most basic of human actions for

> themselves, and thas must strip self responsibly away and

> create depend ecny on " higher " forces

> to do it for them and take responsibility. AA strips self

> empowerment away and self responsibility , and replaces it

> worth powerlessness and group/hp

> dependency

>

> It teaches self respect, but it also teaches the required

> humility...

> and humility is REQUIRED to move from the state of insanity to

> the state of sanity that

> alcoholics who seek out AA want.

> sez who? they seek out AA because they are told its for

> alcoholism, hot humility. they often don't seek out aa at all, but

> are forced into it by courts.

>

> >f one is not humble but doesn't drink then he is merely dry.

> sez who again? everything you say is straight from oxford group

> teachings and has NOTHING to do with alcoholism, but more

> with they require

> suppression of self require for god control. why are you here

> again?

>

> >An active alcoholic doesn't know anything about these things

> and is very unlikely to refrain from drinking without the help of

> others, which is the main

> focus of AA.

>

> funny, aa has no more success than no treatment all. there is no

> a single study which can demonstrate aa is more effective than

> non treatment. nor do other

> sobriety groups share aa's teachings that humility is required, or

> the fallacy of a dry drunk. these are concepts which are unique to

> AA dogma.

> AA as you have shown, is not self help, its self helplessness.

>

> >Politics and squabbling aren't what AA, recovery or life is all

> about. Helping others and the self is what its about.

> >by teaching them they are powerless, diseased, ego maniacs,

> insane and incapable of staying sane with aa's " spirituality is

> help, no thank you.

>

> >If the tenants of AA are mistranslated, then argue with that, and

> if those tenants are wrong, then point that out too, but don't make

> things up.

>

> what exactly did i make up? what part of this quote did i

> mistranslate?

>

> " Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset... "

> An alcoholic is a fellow who is " trying to get his religion out of

a

> bottle, " when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity

> with God. . . . "

> " There is a definite religious element here, -Bill :

>

> " Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate

> the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of

> Alcoholics Anonymous to others. " The paper added: " He

> particularly recommended reading the Bible. " -Dr. Bob:

>

> LIVING CREATOR GOD:

> from " There is a Solution "

> " it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or

> color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form

> a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon

> as we are willing and

> honest enough to try. "

>

> >Turning it over means giving up control - becoming dependent

> on others (and God if you swing that way) until you are capable of

> being dependent on

> >yourself. If you want to place your life in the hands of an

active

> alcoholic, go for it.

>

> i don't need to place my life in anyone's hands. you are one

> making things up. where does it say anywhere about " becoming

> dependent on others " or

> turning your will over to an individual and not god, or some

> Higher Power or Creator in big book? exactly where?

>

> > >the steps have nothing, i repeat nothing, to do with

> alcoholism.

> > >they are formula for religious conversion at the beginning and

> > >they still are 60 years later.

> >

> > You seem too adamant about all of this. Have you sought

> professional help?

>

> this is not worth responding to, why are you on this list again.

> you asked me a question and answered fairly, and for this you

> insult me? i have no

> interest in reading anything else you may write to me. of course

> im adamant, im speaking the truth. how many times is alcohol

> mentioned in steps? how

> many times is god? have you sought a reading comprehension

> class?

>

> >We can just split hairs here if you want.

> i have no need to split anything, the steps speak for themselves.

> they are clearly a formula for religious conversion

>

> >Why say something so absolute, and thus so ridiculous? The

> steps have a whole lot to do with alcoholism.

> where in steps does it say, we decided to stop drinking? where

> does it say " Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over

to

> the care of God " ?

> your one is is ridiculous. your arguments may work on a fresh

> and desperate drunk, but not someone capable of clear thinking.

>

> >First and foremost, lest you forget, they are merely suggestions.

> they are what they are. suggestions, orders, whatever, they are a

> formula for conversion. calling the " suggestions " doesn't change

> that fact. they aren't

> called the " 12 suggestions " . if they are suggestions, then it also

> must be a suggestion that to not flow them leads to jails,

> institutions and death.

>

> >The first step pertains to almost any person with any disorder,

> addiction etc.

> once again, teaching powerlessness is counter productive,

> unless of course you need to be powerless in order for god to

> take control

>

> >The following steps are not religious as religion must have

> some type of deity.

> Buddhism doesn't have a deity. Buddha was a philosopher, not

> a god. and they clearly have a deity, God.

>

> >The steps are a formula for success...

> in your opinion. you haven't offered anything from bill

> which refutes what i have said or quoted

>

> not even original thoughts of Dr >Bob or Bill W - these steps

> were taken from various forms of what we now call self help (it

> was not so common, but it

> >was starting out). These were >steps that these guys found to

> work, on themselves and a hell of a lot of other people!

>

> you dont even know your own history of AA. they come from not

> various forms of self help, but from the Oxford group and bible.

>

> " The specific Biblical ideas taken from these sources were later

> embodied in A.A.'s basic text Alcoholics Anonymous, in its

> Twelve Steps, and in its

> Fellowship. Those six sources were (1) The Bible. (2) Quiet

> Time and the daily devotionals. (3) The teachings of the

> Reverend M. Shoemaker,

> Jr.. (4) The life-changing program of the Oxford Group. (5) The

> details recorded by Co-founder Dr. Bob's wife in Anne 's

> Journal, 1933-1939. (6)

> The Christian literature early AAs read for spiritual growth "

> source:http://www.dickb.com/

>

> they also hurt a hell of allot of people, namley the ones who

> couldn't buy into AA's religious teachings, and who were told

> they should go back out and

> come back in when they were ready.

>

> >

> > >for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to

> > >god or other supposed " higher being " ) you have to create the

> need.

>

> >

> > Millions of alcoholics who could/can not stop drinking alone

> was/is the need.

>

> no, they all stopped drinking on their own, unless of course you

> believe god, santa Claus or ashtrays literally stopped them from

> picking up. the need was

> bill wilson need to proselytize.

>

> >

> > >if i believe in myself to " restore " my sanity, there is no need

> for

> god.

> >

> > That sounds great, too, but a number of people will tell you

> they were unable to " restore " their sanity without outside help...

> AA is indeed a good place

> to go for that help. Keep believing in yourself, I have no reason

to

> disbelieve that you can do it alone, but I don't see your purpose

> in continuing to

> fashion falsehoods about a program that helps people!

> >

>

> what have i said or quoted which is false? i said it was religious.

> bill wilson said it was religious. was he being false when he

> said There is a definite

> religious element here, " ?

>

> >

> > >No need

> > >for god!? that blasphemy!

> >

> > In some parts of the world there is " good AA " and other parts

> just have AA. I have excused myself from anything that I did not

> consider good AA. I

> have never heard anyone act that way towards an agnostic at a

> good AA group, or even a bad one for that matter.

>

> i was being dramatic rather than literal, sorry if i was unclear.

but

> the truth of what i wrote comes through in your arguments.

> perhaps if i said " no need

> for steps or higher power!?!? that blasphemy! " you would have

> understood.

>

> >

> > >so to create the need, you have to

> > believe the you are

> > >powerless,

> > Are you sober? Are you drinking? If your sober (and an

> alcoholic), how can you not admit that, for a time, you were

> powerless over alcohol? If you

> > are an alcoholic, and if you drink, you are powerless over it -

> thats what an alcoholic is - someone who is powerless over

> alcohol! What is your >

> definition? If you don't believe you are powerless, then what do

> you believe you are?

>

> once again, you insult me. every alcoholic who quits drinking,

> every alcoholic, choose to stop drinking and does so. nothing

> powerless about that fits any

> definition of powerless i have ever seen.

> every human being has the control of what they put into their

> bodies, its matter if they have motivation to change their

> behavior.

>

> the only reason word powerless is even used, is to justify god

> control. there is no need for god control is you are not powerless.

> the oxford group taught

> this as a path towards god control and AA 12-steps copied

> oxford group teachings

>

> >

> > >you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

> >

> > Do you believe you differently? I believe alcholism is

> terminal. I have been sober enough and alive enough to see

> that alcoholic people remain

> alcoholic. If you want to be the guinea pig who proves

differently,

> then by all means, go for it.

>

> i stopped being alcoholic when i stopped drinking. no doctor on

> planet ,if they were to examine me could say, " your an alcoholic "

> because i stopped being

> " alcoholic " when i was no longer chemically or emotionally

> dependent upon alcohol. AA biggest lie was to convince million

> of people they we incurable

> to perpetually justify their continued membership and practicing

> of steps. my name is dave, im a sober human being. i WAS an

> alcoholic.

>

> > >believe without the god belief system you will die.

> >

> > Where do you get this? I am still agnostic, although AA got

> me sober. I don't spout off about how horrible it is. It helped

me

> get sober, and fuck

> you, I am grateful for it.

>

> once gain, you viciously insult me. why? i wasn't attacking your

> beliefs, only stating mine, and for this you say " fuck you " to me?

>

> >

> > >the steps

> > >accomplish that fairly well. if

> > >its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps

> to

> > >begin with?

> >

> > HE WASN'T - CAN'T YOU READ? MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO GO

> TO AN AA MEETING - THEY WILL READ IT TO YOU.

>

> i can read, but im not sure you can. my question was, if it wasn't

> about god, why was god in steps to begin with. lets count out

> how many times God is

> referred to, shall we?

>

> AA's 12 STEPS

> 1.

> We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives

> had become unmanageable.

> 2.

> Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could

> restore us to sanity.

> 3.

> Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care

> of

> God as we understood Him.

> 4.

> Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

> 5.

> Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the

> exact nature of our wrongs.

> 6.

> Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of

> character.

> 7.

> Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

> 8.

> Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing

> to make amends to them all.

> 9.

> Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except

> when to do so would injure them or others.

> 10.

> Continued to take personal inventory and when we were

> wrong promptly admitted it.

> 11.

> Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our

> conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only

> for knowledge

> of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

>

> 12.

> Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps,

> we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice

> these principles in all our affairs.

>

> >

> > You can't have it both ways.

> > You keep mentioning the steps saying all these things that

> they do not say. Yes, Bill W and Dr Bob were both " believers " (in

> God) but they made a lot

> > of allowances for people who did not and would not accept a

> God. Your saying that AA forces religion is bullshit, and unless

> you can come up with > >

> > some good support for your arguments, I am going to killfile

> you.

>

> killfile me? be my guest and save me trouble doing it to you. i

> dont feelliek being atatced for answering questions. my

> arguments are clear, yours are a

> struggle against the english language.

>

> > As Bill W is a believer, and a prolific writer, I am not at all

> surprised that you can find lots of examples where he mentions

> God.

>

> i can hardly find any which he DOESN'T

>

> >But that doesn't have anything to do with your curreent

> argument - AA doesn't force God on people... AA doesn't force

> anything on people..

>

> tell that to peopl who are court ordered. tell that to people who

> are told they will destrory themselves with out AA and the steps.

> AA preys upon people in

> the most vulnerable places in their lives in order to use it as an

> opportunity to inject thier god control belief sytems.

>

> >indubitably individuals attempt to force all kinds of things on

> others. For example you are trying to force the idea that AA is

this

> horrible cult, and I am

> >trying to force some reason into your noggin. I wish you would

> calm down and try to say whatever it is you mean to say without

> all the anger and

> >resentment. And if you mean to say that AA is a horrible cult,

> please tell me why you have such an absurd idea.

>

> i just did. twice.look up word of cult in dictionary. ah hell, here

> ya

> go

> cult (klt)

> n.

>

> 1.

> a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be

> extremist or false, with its followers often living in an

> unconventional manner under the guidance

> of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

> b. The followers of such a religion or sect.

> 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

> 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious

> ceremony and ritual.

> 4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its

> originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a

> particular disease.

> 5.

> a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a

> person, principle, or thing.

> b. The object of such devotion.

> 6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually

> artistic or intellectual interest.

>

> you wish i would calm down? who are yu kidding? my awnser to

> your question was wriiten with the utermost scincerity. i wss

> angry. your one who has

> been angry and resentful. my word, what a world you live in. yo

> insult my intelligence, my sanity, my reading ability and you said

> fuck you to boot!

>

> >

> > It sounds like you suffered some sort of trauma at the hands

> of some AA people?? Thanks for answering my question, now

> that I read your whole

> post I guess you were talking to me.

>

> so did you decide to insult me before or after you read whole

> thing?

>

> > I have thought about going and picking up a 1 year chip but I

> haven't yet. I still haven't decided if I am going to. I have my

> own

> reasons for not going >

> to meetings. I hope you don't think I have been defending AA in

> this reply; I have been defending reality - meaning I believe you

> are making things up -

>

> nothing i wrote was " making things up " . maybe you should read

> up on aa hsitory and oxford group before you claim that. i offered

> as evidence the

> words of bill wilson , dr. bob, the 12-steps and big book to

> support my argument. you offered no eviidence, denied the

> evident use of god in steps and

> were insulting.

October 9, 2000

>there are much larger, much more dangerous and much more

>destructive organizations and institutions in this world. Why not

>target them? Which side are you on boy?

im on side of intellectual honesty, wherever it may lay.

your is an empty challenge, " don't pick on us for our injustices,

pick on the other guy " . i target AA because they lie every day to

newcomers about their

religious nature, i target AA because their white wash worked

well enough to convince millions of people they are incurable,

insane, and diseased and

powerless without thier faith healing belief sytems. i target AA

becuse its member routinely disort or denie the facts of their

group, without providing any

evidence to support their claims or effectiveness. only slogans

and double speak.

by the way, my name is dave, not " boy " . learn some manners.

October 9, 2000

>Who's the one having difficulty reading? If you can't see the

Christian god in the steps then you're as blind as a bat worse

really because a bat doesn't choose to be blind it just is.

LOL. thats a keeper

October 9, 2000

Great to read all this.........I know why I dont talk to steppers any more. I hope you can shake off this jargon and mind paralysis and start thinking for your self soon

October 9, 2000

What do you mean what about what?

>What about "Relieve me of the bondage of self that I can better do thy>will?" and "Of myself I am nothing"? What about "fear, that evil and>corroding thread," "Anger shuts out the Sunlight of the Spirit"? What>about "When I'm alone with myself I'm behind enemy lines"? What about>"alcoholic thinking"?

What do you mean what what what about what? So are you trying to construe these ideas as destroyers of self respect? Nice try. There is a difference between losing all self respect and examining the self to remove those parts of the self that are really shitty. I think you have been behind enemy lines too long. The first quote is from a prayer, if you are not a praying person then what does that matter to you?

>When one has been convinced that their feelings are wrong, their>thoughts are wrong and they should _get rid of the self_, and the self>is compared to _nothing_, what is that if not destroying _self_>respect? Certainly, when feeling impulsed to engage in self-destructive>behaviors, feelings and thoughts may not make sense but that is merely a>matter of not knowing their origins, their meaning and learning better>ways to "deal with" them (learning to have them and not try to destroy>them).

How could one become convinced of such if it is not true? I would say that person deceived himself; it was not AA that deceived him. Still you have this anger towards AA (in particular) that I don't get. People deceive themselves with the words and ideals spoonfed to them by all types of people - why don't you get mad at Hollywood, or the Catholic church (or any other) - these are actively participating in the destruciton of (1) the self respect of millions while AA occasionally destroys the self respect of an otherwise unsalvagable person. None of your examples are from the twelve steps (notice I didn't say twelve commandments) and I didn't lose my self respect from AA or the 12 steps. I think one who does manage to lose his self respect to some individuals (or group) within AA is already so far lost that it is an actual improvement... meaning that he becomes capable of functioning (living life on life's terms). Eventually (maybe after years) he will probably find himself (question his sprirtual/emotional captors), if he has really lost himself to AA or otherwise. If he is locked up in jail or dies of overdose or accident, there is less chance of him living life on life's terms, eh? So are you saying he is better off dead? I'd say he is better off alive and on nearly the right path (with always the possibility of finding the right track) than dead and on no path OR alive and on the entirely wrong path.

1 - they are only aiding in the destruction of millions - you can lead a horse to water; you can't make it drink... in the same way they aren't forcing people to drink their poison - people are choosing to. I believe more people have left the Catholic church after coming to AA than have joined the Catholic church thanks to AA. If people choose to believe some bullshit that is presented to them in an AA meeting or by an AA member, is it right to blame the entire organization? Hell no. Leave blame where blame is due, and don't blame the whole world (or the whole institution) because something is not right.

I am still not convinced that AA as intended tries to destroy self respect. I think AA does a good job of letting folks rest on their laurels... on letting folks believe they have done enough work, that they do not need to try anymore. So does any church or government in the world, and many other clubs as well. Groups of any kind grow because they attract people - people are attracted to things that make them feel good. - if people are lazy and don't wish to change or grow, they are going to seek (or be attracted to) things that make them feel comfortable staying the wayt hey are. While I believe that recovery (growth, if you prefer) is a life long process, AA in general tends to tell people they are OK, they don't need to grow anymore. But, if they will buy that, then they didn't have self respect in the first place, did they - they just wanted to be comforted and feel accepted and be told they were doing what they "should do"? I can't blame AA for not making people seek to grow more; not many institutions do (or can)... its the responsibility of individuals to grow and to promote growth within others. And I can't even tell if you are trying to grow or promote growth in others, or if you are merely trying to sabotage something that is more good than bad (of course its not perfect). The fact that AA does promote growth at all is a good thing - every cloud has a silver lining.

We disagree about humility... only through submission may you conquer. Better believe that.

>Actually, about 70% of people stop or moderate their drinking on their>own. The only way anyone could possibly "recover" alone is on a>deserted island with no one present. A much healthier way to recover is>to adopt the attitudes of those to whom alcohol is irrelevant to their>lives, not those who continuously obsess about it.

How do you know? Theoretically, 100% of people stop or moderate on their own. Its impossible for someone else to stop for you. So what. If the (only) 30% (that is several million) are helped to quit drinking through AA, then why bash it? Are you going to go out and help that many people yourself? Are there that many people reading this?

The choices, no matter what you have been led to believe, are not"active alcoholic" or good grouper. The real world is not so narrow, soblack and white. As a matter of fact, according to AA board member Vaillant's research, those who go to AA not only have no bettersuccess at remaining abstinent than those who refuse to go, but AA seemsto almost totally wipe out the moderation-recovery category. So withAA, people do worse overall.

Okay so you are pulling some more shit out of your ass. Since thats what you want to believe go ahead. I do believe in alcholism, and that some people are alcoholics. You seem to be in denial. Do you also deny cancer? Perhaps they don't know every fact about alcoholism... same with cancer. Perhaps there is or is not a cure... as yet I have not seen it. I did not say one must choose active alcoholism or good grouper. I think you have moved beyond making up things about AA to making up things I've said too! I won't stand for that.

>They are "merely suggestions" which if one doesn't follow, they are>supposedly condemning themselves to "jails, institutions and death.">Of course AA is a religious program even if one of their most fervently>held religious beliefs (and clichés) is that they are "spiritual, not>religious." That is obvious to most anyone who is not a member,>including several state Supreme Court rulings.

No actually, you don't have to follow the suggestions. You very well could end up in jail, looney bin or dead if YOU *resume* _drinking_... it doesn't say that if you don't follow _their_ suggestions you will be condemned. For as literal as you take all of this you certainly misquote enough. And then you say... "the real world is not so narrow, so black and white." Well nothing is, but you paint AA with an absolute brush... there were only four absolutes that I can remember... Why don't you take your absolute BS brush and start painting the government or something... that ought to keep you busy. Oh wait, we already have enough people working on that.

>Does that mean that the Moonies, who probably have millions of members>but members who moderate alcohol/drug use rather than abstain works>better than AA or is somehow more powerful because alcoholics and>addicts in the Moonies manage to abstain?

Umm what?

>And at every Wednesday-night prayer meeting one will hear testimonials>about how they've been saved only by the Grace of God and it only could>have happened in that particular religious sect.

Which is their "unalienable" (so far) right.

>The reason why we have an FDA is because people have been very easily>fooled by snake oil salesmen.

No, that is the reason you have the FDA - because you (and too many socialist pigs like you) believe people are too stupid to think for themselves and that you - their protector - must do the thinking for them. Well, their security comes at the price of their freedom, and you are the one who gets paid for it. If you would go out and get a life instead of sitting on your pedestal trying to protect the world from its own mindlessness the world would be a much better place - actually it would not make much difference as you are making no difference to anything, except spreading bullshit and lies about the ability of human beings to think for themselves. Let a person feel the consequences of making bad choices and perhaps he will think a little harder, and choose more cautiously, correctly next time... then maybe you would have fewer false prophets (in the guise of organizations that help people) that people cling to. AA does a very good job of emphasizing the importance of taking responsibility for one's own actions... more than any other institution (besides Judaism) that I have come in contact with. Maybe thats what you don't like about it???

>How is God _not_ there?

(as we understood him) - you can understand yourself to be god can you not? You do, don't you? Tis entirely in the eyes of the beholder... if those eyes have no imagination and decide to believe in something they don't believe, who's to blame? Not me.

>There are many reasons to not go. It is just a terrible shame that>people are led to believe they'll die if they don't go.

That has never happened to me. No one told me you better go to a meeting or you will die. I have been warned not to drink, thats a different thing, and I heed that warning. People are also led to believe that they will burn in hell if they don't worship one of a million "gods" and they are also led to believe a government can solve all their problems... I see much bigger things to bitch about than AA, which by and large does more good than harm (whether you can find facts that support or demerit that claim, I know the truth), and more good than most organzitions, instutitions or other types of groups of people. By and large it is a good group of people, which is something of a rarity in this world. And you condemn it. Fine, I condemn you because you are imperfect. I won't rest until the world knows what a terrible imperfect being you are. Actually its not worth my effort or time, and maybe someday you will see that your crusade against AA is a waste of your time too.

I know we can't be too far apart on everything - there must be some reason we subscribed to the same list, and it wasn't because I want to talk all of you into going back to AA! I didn't ask you to spout off everything you thought was wrong with AA, but you did, so I tried to set you straight where I think you are misthinking. I did ask what you do in place of working the steps. I don't know about you, but the steps don't seem right for me anymore, however I do want to continue with some sort of discipline that promotes the growth of my soul. I have thought a lot of times of a replacement for the steps of AA... I don't get the impression you have thought in this vein, as most of our conversation so far has been about the problems, without any solutions. ly I don't want to argue with you anymore. You have as much right to post here as anyone, but if you don't put forth anything useful (to me), I won't be reading what you have to say.

Re: Welcome to 12-step-free>>> for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over to> god or other supposed "higher being") you have to create the> need. if i believe in> myself to "restore" my sanity, there is no need for god. No need> for god!? that blasphemy! so to create the need, you have to> believe the you are> powerless, you have to believe you are incurable. you have to> believe without the god belief system you will die. the steps> accomplish that fairly well. if> its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps to> begin with?>>> AA likes to claim its "spiritual not religious" because you can> "make anything your hp", as if this alone make sit a non religious> belief system they are proposing.>>> these quote from bill seem to cast doubt on that> revisionist history of AA:>> Bill and Dr. Bob> Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in March, 1943>> Bill :> "Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset..."> An alcoholic is a fellow who is "trying to get his religion out of a> bottle," when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity> with God. . . "> "There is a definite religious element here,>> Dr. Bob:> "Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate> the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of> Alcoholics Anonymous to others." The paper added: "He> particularly recommended reading the Bible.">>> LIVING CREATOR GOD:> from "There is a Solution"> "it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or> color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form> a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon> as we are willing and honest enough to try."> ------>>> hmmm. seems no mater how willing and honest i am, a door> knob and ash tray aren't my "living creator">>>> suppose we were talking about a religious sect of snake> handlers, and they claimed by handling the snake, you would> have the power of the snake god to> "restore your sanity". but i tell them don't like snake handling,> its> a religious belief and has nothing to do with my alcoholism. they> tell me to pretend the> snake is anything i want, just as long as i continue to handle the> snake and belief it will restore my sanity. if i do so, is it any> less a> religious act on my> part? am i not being told to make a leap of faith in the snake, and> to believe my "restored" sanity is creditable to the snake?>> if i fail to remain sober, i will be told the "program is perfect'> and> that i must not have been handling the snake right. im also told> that to stray away from> the snake , would mean facing institutions, jails or death. that the> only way i could keep what i got, to keep my sanity was to> continue to cary the message> of the snake.>> do you think many people would think that what i just described> wasnt a religious cult, but a "spiritual" fellowship? do you think> the supreme court> would let that be taught in public schools? do you think the> christian coalition would like that? why wouldnt they if it was only> "spirtual " and not> relgious?>>> to answer your question, what comes after AA is to start thinking> for yourself agian, as opposed to being fed what to think.>

October 9, 2000

Its a lot less dangerous than the Catholic Church (in any age) or the United States Federal Govenrment, or the United Nations, or should I go on...

All of those are organizations, institutions. I didn't say cults, that was your word. I don't think any of the institutions on this page can be considered cults.

Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

"there are much larger, much more dangerous and much more destructive organizations and institutions in this world. Why not target them? Which side are you on boy?"There may be cults which are more abusive than AA, although AA is horribly abusive, but AA is the most dangerous cult in the world for one simple reason; it is promoted with billions of dollars by the wealthiest and most powerful government in the world, the U.S. I am on the side of the U.S. Constitution and this promotion is quite unconstitutional. http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/index.html http://rational.org/recovery/Cult.html

October 9, 2000

> Do you believe you differently? I believe alcoholism is

terminal. I have been sober enough and alive enough to see

that alcoholic people remain

alcholic. If you want to be the guinea pig who proves differently,

then by all means, go for it.

> Where do you get this? I am still agnostic, although AA got

me sober. I don't spout off about how horrible it is. It helped me

get sober, and fuck you, I

am grateful for it.

>I have a year sober, not much really, and I have attended one AA

meeting in the past six months, not bragging not feeling guilt,

just telling you a fact. I have

thought about going and picking up a 1 year chip but I haven't yet.

I still haven't decided if I am going to.

i have a hard time believing you were in AA for only a year. sober

yes, in AA no. its hard to believe that given the defensive and

angry nature of your tone to my

questioning of the AA belief system. also, the sheer number of

AA standard slogans and arguments you made were far to

numerous to be from someone

who has been to " one AA meeting in the past six months " and

perhaps less than year in Program. so, how long have you been

in AA? i would guess would

be alot of time to be, as you said of me, " too adament about all of

this " .

October 9, 2000

Coolguy: You are in the wrong newsgroup. I dont like your language. Work out

where you're at, clean up your act, then maybe come back, if what we have

here is what you want. I think you belong in AA by the sound of it. Enjoy

October 9, 2000

thanks ellen,

as i m sure ken and tommy, and doug could testify too,

being insulted and ridiculed for daring to question the steps is par

for the

course. i dont know why he was seemingly shocked as to my view point,

the

main page of this list (which he qouted) made it clear he wasnt going

to

hear 12-step pandering on this list.

-- In 12-step-freeegroups, spiriteda1@a... wrote:

> Dave, Ken, Tommy, and Doug,

>

> Thanks for responding to 'Coolguy'. Dave, you used remarkable self-

> constraint considering how you were insulted and ridiculed.

>

> I was wondering why this character was posting on this list, until

it

> hit me: This is an excellent example of cult behavior. Why else

> would someone venture onto a list whose philosophy speaks for

itself,

> and try to 'convert' its members? No one would except someone who

> has been cult-brainwashed, and not particularly well, I might add,

> judging by the quality of aurguments I heard.

>

> Coolguy...I hope you don't think that anyone here is susceptible to

> the garbage you are spewing out...unlike you, we are far too

> intelligent for that.

>

> Ellen

>

> > i dont know why i bothered to respond to you, you are without

> > manners, you asked a question and i fairly and without malice

> > answered it. for this, in your

> > reply to me, you questioned my sanity, my sobriety, my ability to

> > read the word god in steps, and insulted me with 'fuck you " . just

> > what i would have expected.

> >

> > >

> > > Hey, sounds good and all, for a sane person. But what about

> > an active alcoholic? First of all, active alcoholics do not take

> > responsibility for themselves,

> > their actions or their (lack of) sanity.

> >

> > they get themselves into AA at some point don't they? they seek

> > help don't they? they make a choice to stop drinking and so so at

> > some point if they are to

> > get sober don't they? that is taking responsibility. no one ,

> > absolutely no one get sober without taking responsibility so

> > themselves.

> > AA sabotages self responsibility by asking people to turn it over

> > to something else.

> >

> > >Secondly, they can NOT trust themselves to do what is best for

> > them.

> > sez who? you? bill wilson? sounds like what a cult would say to

> > retain recruits. if i though what you teach, i probably would go

> out

> > and drink. of course

> > they can trust themselves, assuming they went into AA willingly

> > or treatment, they obviously were trust worthy enough to do that

> > for themselves.

> > unfortunately once they get there, they are TAUGHT otherwise.

> > the oxford group, believed anyone who wasn't god controlled

> > was literally insane and a

> > public enemy, this is why a god in steps is said to restore us to

> > sanity, not because alcoholics ae insane, but because the non

> > god controlled are insane.

> >

> > >Self empowerment is what they need, but they are in no

> > position to acquire it.

> > that is AA bullshit. to decide not not to drink and to follow

thru

> on

> > your choice IS self empowerment. only in AA do people like you

> > teach others they are

> > incapable of doing that most basic of human actions for

> > themselves, and thas must strip self responsibly away and

> > create depend ecny on " higher " forces

> > to do it for them and take responsibility. AA strips self

> > empowerment away and self responsibility , and replaces it

> > worth powerlessness and group/hp

> > dependency

> >

> > It teaches self respect, but it also teaches the required

> > humility...

> > and humility is REQUIRED to move from the state of insanity to

> > the state of sanity that

> > alcoholics who seek out AA want.

> > sez who? they seek out AA because they are told its for

> > alcoholism, hot humility. they often don't seek out aa at all,

but

> > are forced into it by courts.

> >

> > >f one is not humble but doesn't drink then he is merely dry.

> > sez who again? everything you say is straight from oxford group

> > teachings and has NOTHING to do with alcoholism, but more

> > with they require

> > suppression of self require for god control. why are you here

> > again?

> >

> > >An active alcoholic doesn't know anything about these things

> > and is very unlikely to refrain from drinking without the help of

> > others, which is the main

> > focus of AA.

> >

> > funny, aa has no more success than no treatment all. there is no

> > a single study which can demonstrate aa is more effective than

> > non treatment. nor do other

> > sobriety groups share aa's teachings that humility is required,

or

> > the fallacy of a dry drunk. these are concepts which are unique

to

> > AA dogma.

> > AA as you have shown, is not self help, its self helplessness.

> >

> > >Politics and squabbling aren't what AA, recovery or life is all

> > about. Helping others and the self is what its about.

> > >by teaching them they are powerless, diseased, ego maniacs,

> > insane and incapable of staying sane with aa's " spirituality is

> > help, no thank you.

> >

> > >If the tenants of AA are mistranslated, then argue with that,

and

> > if those tenants are wrong, then point that out too, but don't

make

> > things up.

> >

> > what exactly did i make up? what part of this quote did i

> > mistranslate?

> >

> > " Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset... "

> > An alcoholic is a fellow who is " trying to get his religion out

of

> a

> > bottle, " when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity

> > with God. . . . "

> > " There is a definite religious element here, -Bill :

> >

> > " Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate

> > the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of

> > Alcoholics Anonymous to others. " The paper added: " He

> > particularly recommended reading the Bible. " -Dr. Bob:

> >

> > LIVING CREATOR GOD:

> > from " There is a Solution "

> > " it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or

> > color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form

> > a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon

> > as we are willing and

> > honest enough to try. "

> >

> > >Turning it over means giving up control - becoming dependent

> > on others (and God if you swing that way) until you are capable

of

> > being dependent on

> > >yourself. If you want to place your life in the hands of an

> active

> > alcoholic, go for it.

> >

> > i don't need to place my life in anyone's hands. you are one

> > making things up. where does it say anywhere about " becoming

> > dependent on others " or

> > turning your will over to an individual and not god, or some

> > Higher Power or Creator in big book? exactly where?

> >

> > > >the steps have nothing, i repeat nothing, to do with

> > alcoholism.

> > > >they are formula for religious conversion at the beginning and

> > > >they still are 60 years later.

> > >

> > > You seem too adamant about all of this. Have you sought

> > professional help?

> >

> > this is not worth responding to, why are you on this list again.

> > you asked me a question and answered fairly, and for this you

> > insult me? i have no

> > interest in reading anything else you may write to me. of course

> > im adamant, im speaking the truth. how many times is alcohol

> > mentioned in steps? how

> > many times is god? have you sought a reading comprehension

> > class?

> >

> > >We can just split hairs here if you want.

> > i have no need to split anything, the steps speak for themselves.

> > they are clearly a formula for religious conversion

> >

> > >Why say something so absolute, and thus so ridiculous? The

> > steps have a whole lot to do with alcoholism.

> > where in steps does it say, we decided to stop drinking? where

> > does it say " Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over

> to

> > the care of God " ?

> > your one is is ridiculous. your arguments may work on a fresh

> > and desperate drunk, but not someone capable of clear thinking.

> >

> > >First and foremost, lest you forget, they are merely suggestions.

> > they are what they are. suggestions, orders, whatever, they are a

> > formula for conversion. calling the " suggestions " doesn't change

> > that fact. they aren't

> > called the " 12 suggestions " . if they are suggestions, then it

also

> > must be a suggestion that to not flow them leads to jails,

> > institutions and death.

> >

> > >The first step pertains to almost any person with any disorder,

> > addiction etc.

> > once again, teaching powerlessness is counter productive,

> > unless of course you need to be powerless in order for god to

> > take control

> >

> > >The following steps are not religious as religion must have

> > some type of deity.

> > Buddhism doesn't have a deity. Buddha was a philosopher, not

> > a god. and they clearly have a deity, God.

> >

> > >The steps are a formula for success...

> > in your opinion. you haven't offered anything from bill

> > which refutes what i have said or quoted

> >

> > not even original thoughts of Dr >Bob or Bill W - these steps

> > were taken from various forms of what we now call self help (it

> > was not so common, but it

> > >was starting out). These were >steps that these guys found to

> > work, on themselves and a hell of a lot of other people!

> >

> > you dont even know your own history of AA. they come from not

> > various forms of self help, but from the Oxford group and bible.

> >

> > " The specific Biblical ideas taken from these sources were later

> > embodied in A.A.'s basic text Alcoholics Anonymous, in its

> > Twelve Steps, and in its

> > Fellowship. Those six sources were (1) The Bible. (2) Quiet

> > Time and the daily devotionals. (3) The teachings of the

> > Reverend M. Shoemaker,

> > Jr.. (4) The life-changing program of the Oxford Group. (5) The

> > details recorded by Co-founder Dr. Bob's wife in Anne 's

> > Journal, 1933-1939. (6)

> > The Christian literature early AAs read for spiritual growth "

> > source:http://www.dickb.com/

> >

> > they also hurt a hell of allot of people, namley the ones who

> > couldn't buy into AA's religious teachings, and who were told

> > they should go back out and

> > come back in when they were ready.

> >

> > >

> > > >for the formula to work (work ,meaning turning your will over

to

> > > >god or other supposed " higher being " ) you have to create the

> > need.

> >

> > >

> > > Millions of alcoholics who could/can not stop drinking alone

> > was/is the need.

> >

> > no, they all stopped drinking on their own, unless of course you

> > believe god, santa Claus or ashtrays literally stopped them from

> > picking up. the need was

> > bill wilson need to proselytize.

> >

> > >

> > > >if i believe in myself to " restore " my sanity, there is no need

> > for

> > god.

> > >

> > > That sounds great, too, but a number of people will tell you

> > they were unable to " restore " their sanity without outside

help...

> > AA is indeed a good place

> > to go for that help. Keep believing in yourself, I have no

reason

> to

> > disbelieve that you can do it alone, but I don't see your purpose

> > in continuing to

> > fashion falsehoods about a program that helps people!

> > >

> >

> > what have i said or quoted which is false? i said it was

religious.

> > bill wilson said it was religious. was he being false when he

> > said There is a definite

> > religious element here, " ?

> >

> > >

> > > >No need

> > > >for god!? that blasphemy!

> > >

> > > In some parts of the world there is " good AA " and other

parts

> > just have AA. I have excused myself from anything that I did not

> > consider good AA. I

> > have never heard anyone act that way towards an agnostic at a

> > good AA group, or even a bad one for that matter.

> >

> > i was being dramatic rather than literal, sorry if i was unclear.

> but

> > the truth of what i wrote comes through in your arguments.

> > perhaps if i said " no need

> > for steps or higher power!?!? that blasphemy! " you would have

> > understood.

> >

> > >

> > > >so to create the need, you have to

> > > believe the you are

> > > >powerless,

> > > Are you sober? Are you drinking? If your sober (and an

> > alcoholic), how can you not admit that, for a time, you were

> > powerless over alcohol? If you

> > > are an alcoholic, and if you drink, you are powerless over it -

> > thats what an alcoholic is - someone who is powerless over

> > alcohol! What is your >

> > definition? If you don't believe you are powerless, then what do

> > you believe you are?

> >

> > once again, you insult me. every alcoholic who quits drinking,

> > every alcoholic, choose to stop drinking and does so. nothing

> > powerless about that fits any

> > definition of powerless i have ever seen.

> > every human being has the control of what they put into their

> > bodies, its matter if they have motivation to change their

> > behavior.

> >

> > the only reason word powerless is even used, is to justify god

> > control. there is no need for god control is you are not

powerless.

> > the oxford group taught

> > this as a path towards god control and AA 12-steps copied

> > oxford group teachings

> >

> > >

> > > >you have to believe you are incurable. you have to

> > >

> > > Do you believe you differently? I believe alcholism is

> > terminal. I have been sober enough and alive enough to see

> > that alcoholic people remain

> > alcoholic. If you want to be the guinea pig who proves

> differently,

> > then by all means, go for it.

> >

> > i stopped being alcoholic when i stopped drinking. no doctor on

> > planet ,if they were to examine me could say, " your an alcoholic "

> > because i stopped being

> > " alcoholic " when i was no longer chemically or emotionally

> > dependent upon alcohol. AA biggest lie was to convince million

> > of people they we incurable

> > to perpetually justify their continued membership and practicing

> > of steps. my name is dave, im a sober human being. i WAS an

> > alcoholic.

> >

> > > >believe without the god belief system you will die.

> > >

> > > Where do you get this? I am still agnostic, although AA got

> > me sober. I don't spout off about how horrible it is. It helped

> me

> > get sober, and fuck

> > you, I am grateful for it.

> >

> > once gain, you viciously insult me. why? i wasn't attacking your

> > beliefs, only stating mine, and for this you say " fuck you " to me?

> >

> > >

> > > >the steps

> > > >accomplish that fairly well. if

> > > >its wasn't attended to be about god, why was he put in steps

> > to

> > > >begin with?

> > >

> > > HE WASN'T - CAN'T YOU READ? MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO GO

> > TO AN AA MEETING - THEY WILL READ IT TO YOU.

> >

> > i can read, but im not sure you can. my question was, if it

wasn't

> > about god, why was god in steps to begin with. lets count out

> > how many times God is

> > referred to, shall we?

> >

> > AA's 12 STEPS

> > 1.

> > We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives

> > had become unmanageable.

> > 2.

> > Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could

> > restore us to sanity.

> > 3.

> > Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the

care

> > of

> > God as we understood Him.

> > 4.

> > Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

> > 5.

> > Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the

> > exact nature of our wrongs.

> > 6.

> > Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of

> > character.

> > 7.

> > Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

> > 8.

> > Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing

> > to make amends to them all.

> > 9.

> > Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except

> > when to do so would injure them or others.

> > 10.

> > Continued to take personal inventory and when we were

> > wrong promptly admitted it.

> > 11.

> > Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our

> > conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only

> > for knowledge

> > of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

> >

> > 12.

> > Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these

steps,

> > we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice

> > these principles in all our affairs.

> >

> > >

> > > You can't have it both ways.

> > > You keep mentioning the steps saying all these things that

> > they do not say. Yes, Bill W and Dr Bob were both " believers "

(in

> > God) but they made a lot

> > > of allowances for people who did not and would not accept a

> > God. Your saying that AA forces religion is bullshit, and unless

> > you can come up with > >

> > > some good support for your arguments, I am going to killfile

> > you.

> >

> > killfile me? be my guest and save me trouble doing it to you. i

> > dont feelliek being atatced for answering questions. my

> > arguments are clear, yours are a

> > struggle against the english language.

> >

> > > As Bill W is a believer, and a prolific writer, I am not at all

> > surprised that you can find lots of examples where he mentions

> > God.

> >

> > i can hardly find any which he DOESN'T

> >

> > >But that doesn't have anything to do with your curreent

> > argument - AA doesn't force God on people... AA doesn't force

> > anything on people..

> >

> > tell that to peopl who are court ordered. tell that to people who

> > are told they will destrory themselves with out AA and the

steps.

> > AA preys upon people in

> > the most vulnerable places in their lives in order to use it as

an

> > opportunity to inject thier god control belief sytems.

> >

> > >indubitably individuals attempt to force all kinds of things on

> > others. For example you are trying to force the idea that AA is

> this

> > horrible cult, and I am

> > >trying to force some reason into your noggin. I wish you would

> > calm down and try to say whatever it is you mean to say without

> > all the anger and

> > >resentment. And if you mean to say that AA is a horrible cult,

> > please tell me why you have such an absurd idea.

> >

> > i just did. twice.look up word of cult in dictionary. ah hell,

here

> > ya

> > go

> > cult (klt)

> > n.

> >

> > 1.

> > a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be

> > extremist or false, with its followers often living in an

> > unconventional manner under the guidance

> > of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

> > b. The followers of such a religion or sect.

> > 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

> > 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious

> > ceremony and ritual.

> > 4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its

> > originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a

> > particular disease.

> > 5.

> > a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a

> > person, principle, or thing.

> > b. The object of such devotion.

> > 6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually

> > artistic or intellectual interest.

> >

> > you wish i would calm down? who are yu kidding? my awnser to

> > your question was wriiten with the utermost scincerity. i wss

> > angry. your one who has

> > been angry and resentful. my word, what a world you live in. yo

> > insult my intelligence, my sanity, my reading ability and you

said

> > fuck you to boot!

> >

> > >

> > > It sounds like you suffered some sort of trauma at the hands

> > of some AA people?? Thanks for answering my question, now

> > that I read your whole

> > post I guess you were talking to me.

> >

> > so did you decide to insult me before or after you read whole

> > thing?

> >

> > > I have thought about going and picking up a 1 year chip but I

> > haven't yet. I still haven't decided if I am going to. I have my

> > own

> > reasons for not going >

> > to meetings. I hope you don't think I have been defending AA in

> > this reply; I have been defending reality - meaning I believe you

> > are making things up -

> >

> > nothing i wrote was " making things up " . maybe you should read

> > up on aa hsitory and oxford group before you claim that. i

offered

> > as evidence the

> > words of bill wilson , dr. bob, the 12-steps and big book to

> > support my argument. you offered no eviidence, denied the

> > evident use of god in steps and

> > were insulting.

October 9, 2000

What do you mean what about what?

>What about " Relieve me of the bondage of self that I can better do thy

>will? " and " Of myself I am nothing " ? What about " fear, that evil and

>corroding thread, " " Anger shuts out the Sunlight of the Spirit " ? What

>about " When I'm alone with myself I'm behind enemy lines " ? What about

> " alcoholic thinking " ?

What do you mean what what what about what? So are you trying to

construe these ideas as destroyers of self respect? Nice try. There is

a difference between losing all self respect and examining the self to

remove those parts of the self that are really shitty. I think you have

been behind enemy lines too long. The first quote is from a prayer, if

you are not a praying person then what does that matter to you?

Coolguy,

> What is the self when feeling and thoughts are removed? You are

then talking > about an empty abstraction, something from off in some

sort of intellectual or > spiritual abstraction. Even talking about

" parts of the self that are really shitty " you > are disrespecting

yourself.

What is the relevance if the quote if from a prayer or not? What

does that matter?

>When one has been convinced that their feelings are wrong, their

>thoughts are wrong and they should _get rid of the self_, and the self

>is compared to _nothing_, what is that if not destroying _self_

>respect? Certainly, when feeling impulsed to engage in

self-destructive

>behaviors, feelings and thoughts may not make sense but that is merely

a

>matter of not knowing their origins, their meaning and learning better

>ways to " deal with " them (learning to have them and not try to destroy

>them).

> How could one become convinced of such if it is not true?

How could people become convinced that the Communist system would

supplant Capitalism? How could people become convinced that throwing

virgins in a volcano would appease the Volcano God? How could people

become convinced that Hitler was good for Germany?

> I would say that person deceived himself; it was not AA that deceived

him.

Of course you would.

> Still you have this anger towards AA (in particular) that I don't

get. People deceive > themselves with the words and ideals spoonfed to

them by all

> types of people - why don't you get mad at Hollywood, or the Catholic

church (or > any other) - these are actively participating in the

destruciton

> of (1) the self respect of millions while AA occasionally destroys the

self respect of > an otherwise unsalvagable person. None of your

> examples are from the twelve steps (notice I didn't say twelve

commandments) and > I didn't lose my self respect from AA or the 12

steps.

Your comparing AA with other religions is rather a poor tact here. Most

everyone one this list I would think knows that one of the major

differences between a religion and a religious cult is that relgions are

honest about their beliefs, are straightforward with potential

recruits. If you ask a Catholic if they believe in the Virgin Birth,

they will not hesitate to tell you. If you ask a Moslem, or a Bhuddist,

or a Hindu what the groups' beliefs are, they will tell you. Groupers

can't even be honest, more often that not even with themselves that they

are a religious group.

> I

> think one who does manage to lose his self respect to some individuals

(or group) > within AA is already so far lost that it is an actual

> improvement... meaning that he becomes capable of functioning (living

life on life's > terms). Eventually (maybe after years) he will

probably find

> himself (question his sprirtual/emotional captors), if he has really

lost himself to AA > or otherwise. If he is locked up in jail or dies

of overdose

> or accident, there is less chance of him living life on life's terms,

eh? So are you > saying he is better off dead? I'd say he is better

off alive and

> on nearly the right path (with always the possibility of finding the

right track) than > dead and on no path OR alive and on the entirely

wrong

> path.

What is your source of the above? Pronouncements of " recovery " in AA

are no more valid than the testimonials at Wednesday-night prayer

meetings and in TV infomercials. I believe I cited Harvard psychiatrist

and AA board member Vaillant as a source for the failure of AA

over _nothing_ whatsoever.

> 1 - they are only aiding in the destruction of millions - you can lead

a horse to > water; you can't make it drink... in the same way they

aren't

> forcing people to drink their poison - people are choosing to. I

believe more > people have left the Catholic church after coming to AA

than have

> joined the Catholic church thanks to AA.

When I've said similar things about AA supplanting other religions (I

think you are correct) I've been called a liar by the groupers. But

then the truth for groupers seems to be whatever suits their argument at

the moment.

>If people choose to believe some bullshit > that is presented to them

in an AA > meeting or by an AA

> member, is it right to blame the entire organization? Hell no. Leave

blame where > blame is due, and don't blame the whole world (or the

whole

> institution) because something is not right.

That could go for any group then, even the ones you like to criticize

like the Catholic Church.

When AA members present AA doctrine at AA meetings to potential AA

recruits, AA is responsible.

> I am still not convinced that AA as intended tries to destroy self

respect.

Did you read the chapter on AA history, on its origins at:

http://www.aakills.com/books/revealed.htm ?

I'll bet you'll find a lot of history of AA from AA and Oxford Group

sources that they never told you about.

> I think AA does a good job of letting folks rest on their laurels...

> on letting folks believe they have done enough work, that they do not

need to try > anymore. So does any church or government in the world,

> and many other clubs as well. Groups of any kind grow because they

attract > people - people are attracted to things that make them feel

> good. - if people are lazy and don't wish to change or grow, they are

going to seek > (or be attracted to) things that make them feel

comfortable

> staying the wayt hey are.

Well, " attraction not promotion " is an oft repeated slogan. However,

one to two million people a year are coerced into step groups every

year.

> While I believe that recovery (growth, if you prefer) is a life long

process, AA in > general tends to tell people they are

> OK, they don't need to grow anymore. But, if they will buy that, then

they didn't > have self respect in the first place, did they - they just

wanted

> to be comforted and feel accepted and be told they were doing what

they " should > do " ? I can't blame AA for not making people seek to grow

> more; not many institutions do (or can)... its the responsibility of

individuals to grow > and to promote growth within others. And I can't

even tell

> if you are trying to grow or promote growth in others, or if you are

merely trying to > sabotage something that is more good than bad (of

course

> its not perfect). The fact that AA does promote growth at all is a

good thing - > every cloud has a silver lining.

Take a good look next time you go to a meeting and if there are any

people with a lot of Time (10 or 20 years) take a good look at what they

are like away from meetings and tell me about " recovery " in AA.

> We disagree about humility... only through submission may you

conquer. Better > believe that.

Yes, and " War is peace. "

>>Actually, about 70% of people stop or moderate their drinking on their

>>own. The only way anyone could possibly " recover " alone is on a

>>deserted island with no one present. A much healthier way to recover

is

>>to adopt the attitudes of those to whom alcohol is irrelevant to their

>>lives, not those who continuously obsess about it.

How do you know? Theoretically, 100% of people stop or moderate on

their own. Its impossible for someone else to stop for you. So

what. If the (only) 30% (that is several million) are helped to quit

drinking through AA, then why bash it? Are you going to go out and help

that many people yourself? Are there that many people reading this?

You are forgetting the people that are harmed, that buy into the

" Powerless " nonsense. If 100 people are given drug A for the flu and

100 people are given nothing for the flu, if 95 people given drug A stay

sick and only 30 people who are given nothing stay sick, would you ask,

" What is wrong with drug A if 5 people recover? "

The five percent figure comes from AA internal documents.

>> The choices, no matter what you have been led to believe, are not

>> " active alcoholic " or good grouper. The real world is not so narrow,

so

>> black and white. As a matter of fact, according to AA board member

>> Vaillant's research, those who go to AA not only have no

better

>> success at remaining abstinent than those who refuse to go, but AA

seems

>> to almost totally wipe out the moderation-recovery category. So with

>> AA, people do worse overall.

> Okay so you are pulling some more shit out of your ass.

Vaillant's research, which is in his book " The Natural History of

Alcoholism " may be shit. However, it clearly shows the failure of AA.

Can you cite better authority, better research than that by an AA board

member? Or are you just going to insist that black is white?

> Since thats what you want to believe go ahead.

I believe AA does far worse. I was citing a self-serving AA source.

> I do believe in alcholism, and that

> some people are alcoholics. You seem to be in denial. Do you also

deny > cancer?

Can some people get the disease of cancer from drinking too much?

Certainly. Why is the behavior of drinking too much a disease? Is

smoking a disease too? Is eating fatty foods a disease? Is walking

into a hospital ward with patients with active TB a disease too?

> Perhaps they don't know every fact about alcoholism...

> same with cancer. Perhaps there is or is not a cure... as yet I have

not seen it. I > did not say one must choose active alcoholism or good

> grouper. I think you have moved beyond making up things about AA to

making up > things I've said too! I won't stand for that.

I'll tell you something I won't stand for. And that is coming into

someone else's living room and going into attack mode in a private

discussion as I've seen you do in other posts.

>>They are " merely suggestions " which if one doesn't follow, they are

>>supposedly condemning themselves to " jails, institutions and death. "

>>Of course AA is a religious program even if one of their most

fervently

>>held religious beliefs (and clichés) is that they are " spiritual, not

>>religious. " That is obvious to most anyone who is not a member,

>>including several state Supreme Court rulings.

> No actually, you don't have to follow the suggestions. You very well

could end up > in jail, looney bin or dead if YOU *resume* _drinking_...

it

> doesn't say that if you don't follow _their_ suggestions you will be

condemned. > For as literal as you take all of this you certainly

misquote

> enough. And then you say... " the real world is not so narrow, so

black and white. " > Well nothing is, but you paint AA with an absolute

> brush... there were only four absolutes that I can remember... Why

don't you take > your absolute BS brush and start painting the

government

> or something... that ought to keep you busy. Oh wait, we already have

enough > people working on that.

Why don't you offer some documentation that my position is wrong? From

the AA literature is fine instead of your spirtual bursts of obscenity.

Is that God speaking through you?

>Does that mean that the Moonies, who probably have millions of members

>but members who moderate alcohol/drug use rather than abstain works

>better than AA or is somehow more powerful because alcoholics and

>addicts in the Moonies manage to abstain?

Umm what?

When God rescues Moonies into their group, the alcoholics and drug

addicts don't have to stop. God helps them moderate their use. Isn't

AA's Higher Power as strong as Jesus Incarnate (Reverend Moon)?

>And at every Wednesday-night prayer meeting one will hear testimonials

>about how they've been saved only by the Grace of God and it only could

>have happened in that particular religious sect.

Which is their " unalienable " (so far) right.

Sure it is their right. But that does not make that good evidence,

which was the point. Or are you going to argue that what one hears in

infomercials is " The Truth. "

>>The reason why we have an FDA is because people have been very easily

>>fooled by snake oil salesmen.

>> No, that is the reason you have the FDA - because you (and too many

socialist >> pigs like you) believe people are too stupid to think for

>> themselves and that you - their protector - must do the thinking for

them.

You don't even know if I am a socialist or not or in favor of the FDA.

If people weren't so easily fooled by snake oil salesmen, those who

pushed for the FDA would have had no argument and hence, there'd be no

FDA.

Socialist pig? Is your name calling because you want to distract from

your pathetic, weak arguments?

> Well, their security comes at the price of their freedom, and you are

> the one who gets paid for it. If you would go out and get a life

instead of sitting >on your pedestal trying to protect the world from

its own

> mindlessness the world would be a much better place - actually it

would not

> make much difference as you are making no difference to

> anything, except spreading bullshit and lies about the ability of

human beings to

> think for themselves. Let a person feel the consequences of

> making bad choices and perhaps he will think a little harder, and

choose more

> cautiously, correctly next time... then maybe you would have

> fewer false prophets (in the guise of organizations that help people)

that people

> cling to.

I see. You believe that warning people that AA lies to the public and

objecting to coerced AA indoctrination is wrong. Nice guy you are. You

wouldn't be the Satanist Nate/Thotahut that was banned from this list by

any chance, would you?

> AA does a very good job of emphasizing the

>importance of taking responsibility for one's own actions... more than

any other >institution (besides Judaism) that I have come in contact

with.

>Maybe thats what you don't like about it???

>>How is God _not_ there?

>(as we understood him) - you can understand yourself to be god can you

not? You >do, don't you? Tis entirely in the eyes of the beholder...

if

>those eyes have no imagination and decide to believe in something they

don't >believe, who's to blame? Not me.

I ask again,

Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves . .

..

Why is Power capitalized? Could they be talking about Him?

Step 3: . . . turn our will and lives over to the care of God . .

There's God.

Step 5: Admitted to God . . .

And again.

Step 6: Were entirely ready to have God . . .

Step 7: Humbly asked Him . . .

Anywhere else that Him even uncapitalized is referring to

doorknob or

bedpan?

Step 11: Him, God and His

How is God _not_ there?

>There are many reasons to not go. It is just a terrible shame that

>people are led to believe they'll die if they don't go.

> That has never happened to me. No one told me you better go to a

meeting or >you will die. I have been warned not to drink, thats a

different

>thing, and I heed that warning. People are also led to believe that

they will burn in >hell if they don't worship one of a million " gods "

and they

>are also led to believe a government can solve all their problems... I

see much >bigger things to bitch about than AA, which by and large does

>more good than harm (whether you can find facts that support or demerit

that claim, >I know the truth), and more good than most organzitions,

>instutitions or other types of groups of people. By and large it is a

good group of >people, which is something of a rarity in this world.

And you

>condemn it. Fine, I condemn you because you are imperfect. I won't

rest until the >world knows what a terrible imperfect being you are.

>Actually its not worth my effort or time, and maybe someday you will

see that your >crusade against AA is a waste of your time too.

> I know we can't be too far apart on everything - there must be some

reason we >subscribed to the same list, and it wasn't because I want to

>talk all of you into going back to AA! I didn't ask you to spout off

everything you >thought was wrong with AA, but you did, so I tried to

set you

>straight where I think you are misthinking. I did ask what you do in

place of >working the steps. I don't know about you, but the steps

don't

>seem right for me anymore, however I do want to continue with some sort

of >discipline that promotes the growth of my soul. I have thought a

>lot of times of a replacement for the steps of AA... I don't get the

impression you >have thought in this vein, as most of our conversation

so far

>has been about the problems, without any solutions. ly I don't

want to argue >with you anymore. You have as much right to post here as

>anyone, but if you don't put forth anything useful (to me), I won't be

reading what >you have to say.

The list was started to get away from the groupers who swamped and

disrupted in other ways the newsgroup alt.recovery.from-12-steps.

One of the reasons why the discussion has been about " the problem rather

than the solution " is that the ideas that you brought here from AA are

part of the problem. I'm not trying to attack in saying that, but here,

that is the way things are seen. This is a different world from the

world of AA.

Of the hundreds of people on this list, few if any give the idea of a

disease which requires prayer, meditation, confession, proseletyzing

( " carrying the message " ) and etc. as a cure any creedence. When AA

platitudes and slogans are offered as the foundation of an argument,

when we hear Programese, we categorically reject it because we've been

there.

There was a time many years ago when if there had been a list such as

this, I myself would have responded very much as you have.

The point is, take a look at some of the non-grouper websites and

scientific literature. I've given you one url on the origins of AA.

Here is one where you can read a great deal about " the disease " from a

non-AA perspective:

http://www.peele.net

Ken Ragge

October 9, 2000

> Hey -- you must be one of them " tenants of AA " . Haven't paid any

rent there myself for 13 years -- don't like bent landlords. Tenets,

schmenets ...

Hey

Our friends abroad may not know that over here we have an extra strong

lager called " Tenants Extra " . Brewed specifically for diseased

AAs, perhaps?

P.

October 9, 2000

>i dont know why i bothered to respond to you, you are without >manners, you asked a question and i fairly and without malice >answered it. for this, in your >reply to me, you questioned my sanity, my sobriety, my ability to >read the word god in steps, and insulted me with 'fuck you". just >what i would have expected.

My manners are impecable... I refrained from using them with you, though. You don't seem to be using them either. Malice... every inch of your initial reply was coated with malice. Maybe if you weren't so hateful you would know that. I am snipping a lot of this since it just does not matter.

>this is not worth responding to, why are you on this list again. >you asked me a question and answered fairly, and for this you >insult me? i have no >interest in reading anything else you may write to me. of course >im adamant, im speaking the truth. how many times is alcohol >mentioned in steps? how >many times is god? have you sought a reading comprehension >class? I think I will take a reading comprehension class, as you request, before I read any more from you... perhaps it will help me to see the point amongst your hostility. The only point I am getting from you is that you hate AA. Oh, and that you like to call AA a religion, so that you can call it a cult too. I have been arguing with your hate for AA (and probably religion in general) - I can't make you stop hating and I can't make you converse rationally, although I think it would be useful if you could.

>in your opinion. you haven't offered anything from bill >which refutes what i have said or quoted

Thats because Bill W is not AA, I don't need to quote him to know that AA is a huge group of people who have a problem with alcohol, and that their main purpose is to help themselves and other people (alcholics). Since you have apparently over-analyzed everything having any relation to AA you can make as many quotes as you want. I still say AA helps people. You say it doesn't. You are wrong. I am not. I feel good enough with that.>you dont even know your own history of AA. they come from not >various forms of self help, but from the Oxford group and bible.

Thats true - AA is not the end all final answer to how to live... it is not the meaning of life and so I do not see any reason to know the history of AA any more than I know the history of Alaska. You seem to be the one who is really caught up in it. Your so caught up in that history, and the aspects that pertain to religion, and in your anger towards that religion that you are wasting an otherwise worthwhile life. I do know enough about how it started to say they got their ideas from more places than the Oxford House and the Bible and the others you listed.>they also hurt a hell of allot of people, namley the ones who >couldn't buy into AA's religious teachings, and who were told >they should go back out and come back in when they were ready.

I don't give a rat's ass. Like I told you AA helped me. And I am not nearly as naive as you think I am. I don't know as much about AA as you, and I am happy with that ignorance. Why would I want to know all of that if I don't agree with it? Now I am looking for more that will be of some benefit to me, and you aren't much help.

I will grant that my exposure to AA is not great enough to say I have a good idea of how it operates in most places. I will always think highly of the various people (who were members of AA, whom I became acquainted with through AA, which I called for help) who helped me get through the first several months of making a radical change in my life (quitting drinking - a very detrimental habit I had). The AA I have been exposed to was not cultish, and was not demeaning. Perhaps that is because I had enough sense to be cautious about who I talked to/asked for help. Again I am very self reliant. Perhaps there are AA groups that are totally different; where they really do act like some cult or crazy born again christian church and force feed people their ideas. I will stop arguing with you now because it is serving no purpose, and because you might be right. I have thought all along you had a point; I was very turned off by the way you presented it, though. However, I will never believe (or do enough research to change my mind) that AA was started with evil intentions. Even if the only reason Bill W wrote that book was to make money, that still is not evil. I think you would have more success in your AA bashing if you were more level headed while carrying it out. The next time you pick up a drink, will you be an alcoholic?

>> As Bill W is a believer, and a prolific writer, I am not at all >>surprised that you can find lots of examples where he mentions >>God.>i can hardly find any which he DOESN'T

So what?! You act like it's a sin to believe in God! Or share your beliefs! Thats terribly liberal of you.

tell that to peopl who are court ordered. tell that to people who are told they will destrory themselves with out AA and the steps. AA preys upon people in the most vulnerable places in their lives in order to use it as an opportunity to inject thier god control belief sytems.

Which would you prefer - being forced to attend AA or going to jail? Oh I feel lots of pity for people getting sentenced to AA meetings. Sob sob. They might be ordered to go to the meetings, but no judge can force any thought or belief on anyone. You know this, man. If your problem is with cruel and unusual punishment then why not condemn the government/legislature/courts that are responsible for that. >so did you decide to insult me before or after you read whole >thing? That came along probably as I was replying. I insulted you because you insult the world we live in and the people who live in it, including me, by making statements that defy reality.

>and >were insulting. If you don't get over it I will do it some more. I didn't realize you were so sensitive. I should have known since you can really dish it out.

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