Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

[Guest guest]

I gave you what seemed like good stuff to think about and you snip

it and laugh at it. Well, going with the flow...

<malgeo@m...> wrote:

> There have been several which confirmed that recidivism is

> lower for DWI with traditional jail than with the new treatment-

> oriented first-offender programs.

You do know that they have switched from jail to the program you

speak of because the former was too effective against DUIs right? I

thought there were enough, but apparently they don't make enough

money without a quota of DUIs. I guess you want our fine state and

local governments to go broke... how unpatriotic... how anti

social! No reply needed.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/11/2000 8:09:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

fanniecat@... writes:

<< - " Oh Coolguy, you are so unrealistic... " Yeah but so are you

guys - trying to stamp out AA; if you are going after something that

is wrong... why not go after something that is REALLY

wrong? " Because we aren't smart enough nor do we trust ourselves

enough to KNOW its wrong, Coolguy! "

And if you want to attack brainwashing, go after some SERIOUS

brainwashing. You guys are small potatoes. I have bigger fish to

fry.

>>

Please do, and take comfort in your condescending attitude.

The correct adjective to use in that sentence is " weak " not

mature. They are almost opposites, and you used the wrong one.

Physical maturity is too often assumed to accompany metal maturity.

Many people have yet to discover that a mind can mature!

You practice the same " crimes " that you find offensive in others.

[Guest guest]

> Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

>

>

> Sorry again I disagree with someone.

> > In the long run, such people would generally be better off going

> > to jail. Jail can be traumatic, but it doesn't damage the psyche

> > in the same insidious way that brainwashing does.

>

> I am sorry but this is a ridiculous thing to say.

Cool Guy I'm not understanding the position you're taking here. I thought

in a previous post you said that judges were good for making people accept

responsibility. Am I to take it now that this is only the case if they're

sentencing people to 12 step group attendance even though it's not legal for

them to do so?

> Has there ever been a study that confirmed that going to jail is a

positive form of

> rehabilitation?

I wasn't aware that you were into studies now. Since you are I've got one

that shows that not going to any treatment is more effective than going to

treatment with AA is in fighting abusive alcohol intake. I can link you to

it if you like.

> They say people end up in AA because they belong

> there,

I agree AA's say this all the time. I've never heard anyone else say that

though.

> and I guess people end up in jail because they belong there,

> too, eh?

Glad you made that a question because that is a complicated answer to give.

I suppose the easiest answer is it depends on the nationality/income level

of the person you're asking the question of, in this country.

> For some reason you think imprisoning people is OK.

For me it depends on the crime.

> 200 years ago, it was considered OK to enslave people.

Still is in some places. We've got an international crowd here Cool Guy.

> How long will it take to realize that imprisonment is an equal evil?

Imprisonment = to slavery? I've never really thought of it that way but I

suppose I can see " a few " correlations.

> (1) But it serves a purpose.... its cheap, you don't have to train the

people in

> charge of rehabilitating. Unless you mean weight training and

> practicing on the shooting range.

Actually prison guards receive more training than you might think. (I typed

that before reading below and I stand by that still. I have a friend who's

applying for the job now.)

> Psychologists couldn't hand me all the answers, but they gave me a lot

more to work with than a barbell

> or ESPN in jail.

I wish I could hand you a copy of " The Real AA " . Ken gave me quite a bit to

think about in that book some of it had nothing to do with 12 steps but the

psychology behind what might bring someone to drug/alcohol abuse. Like the

chapter on " Early Childhood Lessons " .

> Even unqualified people whose desire was to help me

> were better than that.

I would tend to agree with you here. When genuine care clashes with cold

hard institutional professionalism it's hard to walk away thinking the

institution won. It seldom if ever does. Institutions are generally about

self perpetuation.

> I don't have any numbers to support myself,

> its like comparing apples and oranges... which taste better to you?

Mangos. Don't ask it's a Puerto Rican thing.

> Somehow you just don't know what jail, or imprisoning (and sometimes

> enslaving) people tastes like.

True I won't pretend that I do. Just don't pretend you know what it's like

to go through boot camp where you have even less rights than most prisoners.

> 1 - " Oh Coolguy, you are so unrealistic... " Yeah but so are you

> guys - trying to stamp out AA; if you are going after something that

> is wrong... why not go after something that is REALLY

> wrong? " Because we aren't smart enough nor do we trust ourselves

> enough to KNOW its wrong, Coolguy! "

I don't understand why it would be so difficult to understand that people

who have been harmed by XA (step groups) would want to take them down for

the count. We're familiar with the harm XA causes. This is a list where

people familiar with this share thoughts and ideas. I'm not sure were

intelligence or trust come into play here CG. A certain level of

intelligence is necessary for people to see that AA is a cult like

organization that harms many of it's members and that it's not for everyone.

At the same time there are intelligent people in AA. Just like there are

intelligent people in Scientology and there were intelligent people in

Heaven's Gate. For some reason these people willingly suspend their

disbelief in the overwhelming number of negatives they see for the minimal

positives they perceive they're gaining. I don't profess to know what makes

them do this. I wish I did. If I did I would strike at the heart of it.

> And if you want to attack brainwashing, go after some SERIOUS

> brainwashing. You guys are small potatoes. I have bigger fish to

> fry.

Good things come in small packages.

> The powerless over alcohol (ie - the terrible first drink and its

> all over) is the only powerlessness I was ever taught in AA.

It's enough. That's bs and it's a shame you bought it.

> Maybe thats because I am smarter than you and refused to accept these

other

> powerlessness concepts you are accusing AA of,

You mean like powerless over people, places and things? Which when you

think about it is powerlessness over everything. I don't think you want to

argue that AA doesn't preach this.

As to intelligence you're the one claiming powerlessness over an inanimate

object as it relates to your first drink (your behavior). Ask yourself how

intelligent is that?

> What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and you sound like a

> wimp.

Very true. I was stung by a wasp the other day and it pissed me off enough

to grab a can of Wasp spray. The wasp (the entire nest for that matter)

isn't around anymore. AA stung us and now a shit load of us are applying

the XA spray. I can say the wasp didn't know better but I can't say that

for alot of AA members. Like the wasps threatened the well being of my

family and I, AA threatens the well being of it's members. And like the

wasps it's got to go.

> > Forced or coerced AA is a travesty and a tragedy. It's just

> > as immoral as forced Methodism, and a lot more harmful.

>

> I guess we all still have some things to learn.

Agreed. Some more than others of us. The sad part is you've already

publicly stated you're lack of desire to do so.

[Guest guest]

LOL! , this was one of your best repartees ever!! Definitely a

keeper.

The problem with Coolguy (Coolguy, are you still reading?) is that he

expected that we would all rush to " answer his simple question " by describing

some kind of group/meeting/program that we all attend or practice " instead of

working the steps " . He can't conceive of a state of consciousness where it is

not necessary to attend ANY program or adhere to ANY " recovery " philosophy in

order to be sober and responsible. That's why when Dave answered him by saying

he takes responsibility for himself and gets on with his life, Coolguy

interpreted it as a snotty response.

Unfortunately, Mr. Coolguy does not see that the belief that everyone who

ever drank problematically must eternally " work a program " to avoid a repeat of

their unhealthy behavior, is one of the AA falsehoods that he has been

brainwashed with. He's now berating all of us for " refusing " to answer his

question, and for dissecting and refuting the XA belief system, which is exactly

what the list is intended for.

He claims this list is mis-named -- but really it's his own

misinterpretation -- the list certainly isn't called " alternative rituals and

beliefs you should involve yourself with if you think being sober requires such

things but don't like 12-steps " .

~Rita

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>

>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:10:17 -0500

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: RE: Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

>

>

>

>> Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

>>

>>

>> Sorry again I disagree with someone.

>> > In the long run, such people would generally be better off going

>> > to jail. Jail can be traumatic, but it doesn't damage the psyche

>> > in the same insidious way that brainwashing does.

>>

>> I am sorry but this is a ridiculous thing to say.

>

>Cool Guy I'm not understanding the position you're taking here. I thought

>in a previous post you said that judges were good for making people accept

>responsibility. Am I to take it now that this is only the case if they're

>sentencing people to 12 step group attendance even though it's not legal for

>them to do so?

>

>> Has there ever been a study that confirmed that going to jail is a

>positive form of

>> rehabilitation?

>

>I wasn't aware that you were into studies now. Since you are I've got one

>that shows that not going to any treatment is more effective than going to

>treatment with AA is in fighting abusive alcohol intake. I can link you to

>it if you like.

>

>> They say people end up in AA because they belong

>> there,

>

>I agree AA's say this all the time. I've never heard anyone else say that

>though.

>

>> and I guess people end up in jail because they belong there,

>> too, eh?

>

>Glad you made that a question because that is a complicated answer to give.

>I suppose the easiest answer is it depends on the nationality/income level

>of the person you're asking the question of, in this country.

>

>> For some reason you think imprisoning people is OK.

>

>For me it depends on the crime.

>

>> 200 years ago, it was considered OK to enslave people.

>

>Still is in some places. We've got an international crowd here Cool Guy.

>

>> How long will it take to realize that imprisonment is an equal evil?

>

>Imprisonment = to slavery? I've never really thought of it that way but I

>suppose I can see " a few " correlations.

>

>> (1) But it serves a purpose.... its cheap, you don't have to train the

>people in

>> charge of rehabilitating. Unless you mean weight training and

>> practicing on the shooting range.

>

>Actually prison guards receive more training than you might think. (I typed

>that before reading below and I stand by that still. I have a friend who's

>applying for the job now.)

>

>> Psychologists couldn't hand me all the answers, but they gave me a lot

>more to work with than a barbell

>> or ESPN in jail.

>

>I wish I could hand you a copy of " The Real AA " . Ken gave me quite a bit to

>think about in that book some of it had nothing to do with 12 steps but the

>psychology behind what might bring someone to drug/alcohol abuse. Like the

>chapter on " Early Childhood Lessons " .

>

>> Even unqualified people whose desire was to help me

>> were better than that.

>

>I would tend to agree with you here. When genuine care clashes with cold

>hard institutional professionalism it's hard to walk away thinking the

>institution won. It seldom if ever does. Institutions are generally about

>self perpetuation.

>

>> I don't have any numbers to support myself,

>> its like comparing apples and oranges... which taste better to you?

>

>Mangos. Don't ask it's a Puerto Rican thing.

>

>> Somehow you just don't know what jail, or imprisoning (and sometimes

>> enslaving) people tastes like.

>

>True I won't pretend that I do. Just don't pretend you know what it's like

>to go through boot camp where you have even less rights than most prisoners.

>

>> 1 - " Oh Coolguy, you are so unrealistic... " Yeah but so are you

>> guys - trying to stamp out AA; if you are going after something that

>> is wrong... why not go after something that is REALLY

>> wrong? " Because we aren't smart enough nor do we trust ourselves

>> enough to KNOW its wrong, Coolguy! "

>

>I don't understand why it would be so difficult to understand that people

>who have been harmed by XA (step groups) would want to take them down for

>the count. We're familiar with the harm XA causes. This is a list where

>people familiar with this share thoughts and ideas. I'm not sure were

>intelligence or trust come into play here CG. A certain level of

>intelligence is necessary for people to see that AA is a cult like

>organization that harms many of it's members and that it's not for everyone.

>

>At the same time there are intelligent people in AA. Just like there are

>intelligent people in Scientology and there were intelligent people in

>Heaven's Gate. For some reason these people willingly suspend their

>disbelief in the overwhelming number of negatives they see for the minimal

>positives they perceive they're gaining. I don't profess to know what makes

>them do this. I wish I did. If I did I would strike at the heart of it.

>

>> And if you want to attack brainwashing, go after some SERIOUS

>> brainwashing. You guys are small potatoes. I have bigger fish to

>> fry.

>

>Good things come in small packages.

>

>> The powerless over alcohol (ie - the terrible first drink and its

>> all over) is the only powerlessness I was ever taught in AA.

>

>It's enough. That's bs and it's a shame you bought it.

>

>> Maybe thats because I am smarter than you and refused to accept these

>other

>> powerlessness concepts you are accusing AA of,

>

>You mean like powerless over people, places and things? Which when you

>think about it is powerlessness over everything. I don't think you want to

>argue that AA doesn't preach this.

>

>As to intelligence you're the one claiming powerlessness over an inanimate

>object as it relates to your first drink (your behavior). Ask yourself how

>intelligent is that?

>

>> What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and you sound like a

>> wimp.

>

>Very true. I was stung by a wasp the other day and it pissed me off enough

>to grab a can of Wasp spray. The wasp (the entire nest for that matter)

>isn't around anymore. AA stung us and now a shit load of us are applying

>the XA spray. I can say the wasp didn't know better but I can't say that

>for alot of AA members. Like the wasps threatened the well being of my

>family and I, AA threatens the well being of it's members. And like the

>wasps it's got to go.

>

------------------------------------------------------------

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

Hello Rita,

Yes, I am still reading, fire away.

Actually I really like , and I thank him and respect him for

his patience and his insights. About me, though, as is the norm

here, you are just wrong. I don't know why the people here,

including you and Dave and maybe and 270 others think I am

brainwashed. I'm not. I don't need you to confirm to me that I am

not. I know I avoided brainwashing as unfathomable as that is to you

guys and gals. I am not surprised to see that you also *think* you

know what I can conceive...

Tis impossible for man and difficult for nature itself to surpass

the riches of my imagination...

Yet you know what I conceive in MY mind. Thats amazing, it really

is. You must be a higher power or something. Oh Goddess! Did you

just say this because you know it pisses me off? If so, I will

excuse it since you reminded me of Rousseau. Rousseau is the silver

lining of the cloud I've named Rita.

I was pretty happy reading this post from . I am in the

process of working on a reply to one of 's posts. Since you

called me out, here I am; I was planning on not flooding this list

today.

The question was an incredibly simple question, Rita. I didn't

ask the question because I am addicted to AA, recovery, stepwork or

any such crap. I asked the question, because I wondered how humans

at this cognitive level live their lives. What they do, if anything,

that is out of the ordinary or especially healthy or that they feel

is important to their well being. Perhaps, you don't do anything,

then I don't particularly want a response from you saying I am a dolt

(or were you thinking idiot, moron, imbecile?) because I am seeking

something that you don't have to share. Someone asked how many AA

( " propaganda " ) books I have read in the past year. Less than 2

altogether. I have read a lot of books about people. Like Einstein,

Sammy and some other guy Leonardo somebody. I was reading

about these guys. They had these daily rituals, that they believed

helped them somehow. I think its not uncommon for human beings from

Earth, the same planet I live on, to have some sort of daily

rituals. I guess you could just say its a human kind of thing to

do. If you hate AA and any type of discipline then I guess you might

associate the two and not have any decent answer. But don't you have

something special you do on Saturday? Or maybe a couple days ago,

you did something special. Maybe not. Thanks for sharing. Oh wait

you didn't either.

Well I will. When I was a kid, I remember a ritualistic trek to

the mailbox everyday. I liked to get the mail back then. I did it

not because my parents told me to nor because I was expecting mail.

I did it because I liked to. Maybe it made me feel useful or maybe

there was some anticipation that I was going to find something for me

in the box (didn't happen often, I know that) - I don't know why, it

just gave me comfort, or I could say made me happy to get the mail.

But you think its wrong to have something I like to do on a regular

basis. OK great. Don't do anything you enjoy babe, you might be

slipping into steppism.

But now... I don't awaken at the same time everyday. In the

morning when I rise, I take food and then I take a hot bath, I run it

as hot as it can go. It has those whirlpool jets. I read for about

ten minutes. Thats relaxing.

At night I do the same thing. Here are my basic don'ts that come

to mind right now:

I don't get into burning candles or incense. I don't eat

animals. I don't drink. I don't smoke, that was fun to quit; it

really made me feel good. And I avoid caffeine because it effects my

sleep my appetite and my mood in a negative way.

I write every morning and every evening, the amounts vary

depending on what I write about. I run or do aerobic exercise for

about 20 minutes almost every day and I do the usual push ups and sit

ups whenever I feel like doing them. I have enough rituals... if you

want to call them that. I don't do these in place of AA, I was never

in AA long enough to " get on a schedule. " These " rituals " I do for

fun, or for health, mostly both. If I don't feel like doing them, I

don't. I consider my morning check of my email probably the biggest

habit, ritual whatever in my life. I wish I had more social time.

When I was younger I went to bars, coffee shops, but now these places

seem so smoky and so lacking... now I don't do enough getting out.

I used to get out simply to evade my thoughts and that was a daily

several hour ritual, but I think everything in moderation now you

know. But it has changed, I don't like bars or coffeeshops anymore

really. So what else is there? I know that some of these things are

worth doing. I used to always take showers, because I was always in

a hurry. Now I almost always take a bath with no rush and I feel

much better for it. I learned to live my life without rushing, and

feel better for that too. Just wondering what other crack heads do.

Since the drinkers declined to answer, save one whose reply was

similar to my example.

>

>

> LOL! , this was one of your best repartees ever!!

Definitely a keeper.

>

> The problem with Coolguy (Coolguy, are you still reading?) is

that he expected that we would all rush to " answer his simple

question " by describing some kind of group/meeting/program that we

all attend or practice " instead of working the steps " . He can't

conceive of a state of consciousness where it is not necessary to

attend ANY program or adhere to ANY " recovery " philosophy in order to

be sober and responsible. That's why when Dave answered him by

saying he takes responsibility for himself and gets on with his life,

Coolguy interpreted it as a snotty response.

>

> Unfortunately, Mr. Coolguy does not see that the belief that

everyone who ever drank problematically must eternally " work a

program " to avoid a repeat of their unhealthy behavior, is one of the

AA falsehoods that he has been brainwashed with. He's now berating

all of us for " refusing " to answer his question, and for dissecting

and refuting the XA belief system, which is exactly what the list is

intended for.

>

> He claims this list is mis-named -- but really it's his own

misinterpretation -- the list certainly isn't called " alternative

rituals and beliefs you should involve yourself with if you think

being sober requires such things but don't like 12-steps " .

>

> ~Rita

>

>

> >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> >From: " Arroyo " <arroyoh@h...>

> >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:10:17 -0500

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >Subject: RE: Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

> >

> >

> >

> >> Re: Welcome to 12-step-free

> >>

> >>

> >> Sorry again I disagree with someone.

> >> > In the long run, such people would generally be better off

going

> >> > to jail. Jail can be traumatic, but it doesn't damage the

psyche

> >> > in the same insidious way that brainwashing does.

> >>

> >> I am sorry but this is a ridiculous thing to say.

> >

> >Cool Guy I'm not understanding the position you're taking here. I

thought

> >in a previous post you said that judges were good for making

people accept

> >responsibility. Am I to take it now that this is only the case if

they're

> >sentencing people to 12 step group attendance even though it's not

legal for

> >them to do so?

> >

> >> Has there ever been a study that confirmed that going to jail is

a

> >positive form of

> >> rehabilitation?

> >

> >I wasn't aware that you were into studies now. Since you are I've

got one

> >that shows that not going to any treatment is more effective than

going to

> >treatment with AA is in fighting abusive alcohol intake. I can

link you to

> >it if you like.

> >

> >> They say people end up in AA because they belong

> >> there,

> >

> >I agree AA's say this all the time. I've never heard anyone else

say that

> >though.

> >

> >> and I guess people end up in jail because they belong there,

> >> too, eh?

> >

> >Glad you made that a question because that is a complicated answer

to give.

> >I suppose the easiest answer is it depends on the

nationality/income level

> >of the person you're asking the question of, in this country.

> >

> >> For some reason you think imprisoning people is OK.

> >

> >For me it depends on the crime.

> >

> >> 200 years ago, it was considered OK to enslave people.

> >

> >Still is in some places. We've got an international crowd here

Cool Guy.

> >

> >> How long will it take to realize that imprisonment is an equal

evil?

> >

> >Imprisonment = to slavery? I've never really thought of it that

way but I

> >suppose I can see " a few " correlations.

> >

> >> (1) But it serves a purpose.... its cheap, you don't have to

train the

> >people in

> >> charge of rehabilitating. Unless you mean weight training and

> >> practicing on the shooting range.

> >

> >Actually prison guards receive more training than you might think.

(I typed

> >that before reading below and I stand by that still. I have a

friend who's

> >applying for the job now.)

> >

> >> Psychologists couldn't hand me all the answers, but they gave me

a lot

> >more to work with than a barbell

> >> or ESPN in jail.

> >

> >I wish I could hand you a copy of " The Real AA " . Ken gave me quite

a bit to

> >think about in that book some of it had nothing to do with 12

steps but the

> >psychology behind what might bring someone to drug/alcohol abuse.

Like the

> >chapter on " Early Childhood Lessons " .

> >

> >> Even unqualified people whose desire was to help me

> >> were better than that.

> >

> >I would tend to agree with you here. When genuine care clashes

with cold

> >hard institutional professionalism it's hard to walk away thinking

the

> >institution won. It seldom if ever does. Institutions are

generally about

> >self perpetuation.

> >

> >> I don't have any numbers to support myself,

> >> its like comparing apples and oranges... which taste better to

you?

> >

> >Mangos. Don't ask it's a Puerto Rican thing.

> >

> >> Somehow you just don't know what jail, or imprisoning (and

sometimes

> >> enslaving) people tastes like.

> >

> >True I won't pretend that I do. Just don't pretend you know what

it's like

> >to go through boot camp where you have even less rights than most

prisoners.

> >

> >> 1 - " Oh Coolguy, you are so unrealistic... " Yeah but so are you

> >> guys - trying to stamp out AA; if you are going after something

that

> >> is wrong... why not go after something that is REALLY

> >> wrong? " Because we aren't smart enough nor do we trust ourselves

> >> enough to KNOW its wrong, Coolguy! "

> >

> >I don't understand why it would be so difficult to understand that

people

> >who have been harmed by XA (step groups) would want to take them

down for

> >the count. We're familiar with the harm XA causes. This is a

list where

> >people familiar with this share thoughts and ideas. I'm not sure

were

> >intelligence or trust come into play here CG. A certain level of

> >intelligence is necessary for people to see that AA is a cult like

> >organization that harms many of it's members and that it's not for

everyone.

> >

> >At the same time there are intelligent people in AA. Just like

there are

> >intelligent people in Scientology and there were intelligent

people in

> >Heaven's Gate. For some reason these people willingly suspend

their

> >disbelief in the overwhelming number of negatives they see for the

minimal

> >positives they perceive they're gaining. I don't profess to know

what makes

> >them do this. I wish I did. If I did I would strike at the heart

of it.

> >

> >> And if you want to attack brainwashing, go after some SERIOUS

> >> brainwashing. You guys are small potatoes. I have bigger fish

to

> >> fry.

> >

> >Good things come in small packages.

> >

> >> The powerless over alcohol (ie - the terrible first drink and

its

> >> all over) is the only powerlessness I was ever taught in AA.

> >

> >It's enough. That's bs and it's a shame you bought it.

> >

> >> Maybe thats because I am smarter than you and refused to accept

these

> >other

> >> powerlessness concepts you are accusing AA of,

> >

> >You mean like powerless over people, places and things? Which

when you

> >think about it is powerlessness over everything. I don't think

you want to

> >argue that AA doesn't preach this.

> >

> >As to intelligence you're the one claiming powerlessness over an

inanimate

> >object as it relates to your first drink (your behavior). Ask

yourself how

> >intelligent is that?

> >

> >> What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and you sound like a

> >> wimp.

> >

> >Very true. I was stung by a wasp the other day and it pissed me

off enough

> >to grab a can of Wasp spray. The wasp (the entire nest for that

matter)

> >isn't around anymore. AA stung us and now a shit load of us are

applying

> >the XA spray. I can say the wasp didn't know better but I can't

say that

> >for alot of AA members. Like the wasps threatened the well being

of my

> >family and I, AA threatens the well being of it's members. And

like the

> >wasps it's got to go.

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------

> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

> What ARE the four absolutes, just out of curiosity?

Absolute Dishonesty

Absolute Bullshit

Absolute Conformity

Absolute Insanity

Well thats what they are these days!

P.

[Guest guest]

Hee hee -- that was good, Pete!

watts_pete@... wrote:

>

> > What ARE the four absolutes, just out of curiosity?

>

> Absolute Dishonesty

> Absolute Bullshit

> Absolute Conformity

> Absolute Insanity

>

> Well thats what they are these days!

>

> P.