Guest guest Posted October 20, 2000 Report Share Posted October 20, 2000 Tommy: While we're on the subject. Congratulations. " Forced AA in the US Military is Unconstitutional " Is currently the Second Most active Discussion board on Hampton Road's " Military News and Issues " page. Not bad for a topic some people have attempted to imply was a subject of limited interest http://talknet.hamptonroads.com/webx/cgi-bin/WebX?14@@.ee8edcb > This is amazing > > > and I have been on a discussion (pilotonline. com) for > months now and > a Naval Medical Officer just came in. First of all take a look at these > rules: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2000 Report Share Posted October 21, 2000 Tommy, , group: I have to reply to this bozo, even though I know he doesn't read here. > I think to convince someone that alcoholism is a disease process, is for them to see first hand the medical complications of end stage alcoholism. With declining liver function, attacks of excruciatingly painful pancreatitis, they will leave the emergency department and continue to drink. Transported by ambulance they will come to the hospital for acute alcohol withdrawal, most notably seizures, and or delirium. They'll roam the psychiatric wards or county home with chronic organic brain disease, most from alcoholic encephalopathy.. they would drink if they could. In the middle of night they will bleed out from ruptured esophageal varicose veins (varicies), caused by chronic portal hypertension (liver enlargement with engorgement of the veins), and years of drinking. Yup, jails institutions and death. Those of us who have not experienced these extreme conditions owe it to everyone else in the world to say nice things about *A even if it kills us. We owe it to the treatment industry to pretend we were never harmed by the 12 steps. > Are they to be denied treatment for the complications of alcoholism, because it is not a disease? Certainly not. But why offer them something that's ineffective, like *A? Offer them medical treatment, leave the spiritual crap out of it. Offering someone as sick as the patient described above a " spiritual " cure is unethical, imo. > If you want to argue over syntax; " it is not a disease " , what do we call it (weakness, lack of will power, maladaptive personality disorder)? If you must call it a disease, then find a way to describe its effects without any spiritual mumbo jumbo. Talk about liver disease. Talk about effects on the brain. Talk about behavioral issues. That, I'm very interested in. However, to attribute ALL these issues to alcohol is to ignore a huge body of psychological and sociological data that finds other causes for compulsive behavior such as drinking. > That is little consolation to those that still suffer (yes, suffer), and the families that have an alcoholic member. But *A doesn't help these people either. *A is ineffective. Why defend something that doesn't work? > I ask that we have compassion, and not try and undo all that has been done to address alcoholism as a preventable and treatable disease process. BULLSH*T. You want people to have compassion for YOU. It's YOU that cannot tolerate having your beliefs questioned. YOU cannot discuss chemical dependency and addiction without using 12 step language, so you want everyone in the world to tow your line. YOU don't care about finding real solutions to these difficult problems, and YOU resent it that some of us are looking deeper and not accepting your *A soundbytes and pasteurized processed mcnuggets of information. I know your life would be easier if you didn't have to defend what you believe, but look how hard I have to work to defend MY beliefs. I'm cutting you as much slack as you cut me. As soon as you have a little compassion for people harmed by treatment, then we can talk about me showing you some compassion. grrrrrrr...... judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2000 Report Share Posted October 21, 2000 Judith, Great! Please post this on TalkNet. It's easy to register. pilotonline.com TalkNet is down on the left column. Tommy > Tommy, , group: I have to reply to this bozo, even though I > know > he doesn't read here. > > > I think to convince someone that alcoholism is a disease process, > is > for them to see first hand the medical complications of end stage > alcoholism. With declining liver function, attacks of excruciatingly > painful pancreatitis, they will leave the emergency department and > continue to drink. Transported by ambulance they will come to the > hospital for acute alcohol withdrawal, most notably seizures, and or > delirium. They'll roam the psychiatric wards or county home with > chronic organic brain disease, most from alcoholic encephalopathy.. > they would drink if they could. In the middle of night they will > bleed > out from ruptured esophageal varicose veins (varicies), caused by > chronic portal hypertension (liver enlargement with engorgement of > the > veins), and years of drinking. > > Yup, jails institutions and death. Those of us who have not > experienced these extreme conditions owe it to everyone else in the > world to say nice things about *A even if it kills us. We owe it to > the treatment industry to pretend we were never harmed by the 12 > steps. > > > Are they to be denied treatment for the complications of > alcoholism, > because it is not a disease? > > Certainly not. But why offer them something that's ineffective, like > *A? Offer them medical treatment, leave the spiritual crap out of it. > Offering someone as sick as the patient described above a " spiritual " > cure is unethical, imo. > > > If you want to argue over syntax; " it is not a disease " , > what do we > call it (weakness, lack of will power, maladaptive personality > disorder)? > > If you must call it a disease, then find a way to describe its > effects > without any spiritual mumbo jumbo. Talk about liver disease. Talk > about effects on the brain. Talk about behavioral issues. That, I'm > very interested in. However, to attribute ALL these issues to alcohol > is to ignore a huge body of psychological and sociological data that > finds other causes for compulsive behavior such as drinking. > > > That is little consolation to those that still suffer (yes, > suffer), > and the families that have an alcoholic member. > > But *A doesn't help these people either. *A is ineffective. Why > defend > something that doesn't work? > > > I ask that we have compassion, and not try and undo all that has > been done to address alcoholism as a preventable and treatable > disease > process. > > BULLSH*T. You want people to have compassion for YOU. It's YOU that > cannot tolerate having your beliefs questioned. YOU cannot discuss > chemical dependency and addiction without using 12 step language, so > you want everyone in the world to tow your line. YOU don't care about > finding real solutions to these difficult problems, and YOU resent it > that some of us are looking deeper and not accepting your *A > soundbytes and pasteurized processed mcnuggets of information. I know > your life would be easier if you didn't have to defend what you > believe, but look how hard I have to work to defend MY beliefs. I'm > cutting you as much slack as you cut me. As soon as you have a little > compassion for people harmed by treatment, then we can talk about me > showing you some compassion. > > grrrrrrr...... > > judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2000 Report Share Posted October 21, 2000 Go Judith, Go Judith Get your grrrrrrrr on..... Just to let you know I'm stealing this: *A soundbytes and pasteurized processed mcnuggets of information > Re: This is amazing > > > BULLSH*T. You want people to have compassion for YOU. It's YOU that > cannot tolerate having your beliefs questioned. YOU cannot discuss > chemical dependency and addiction without using 12 step language, so > you want everyone in the world to tow your line. YOU don't care about > finding real solutions to these difficult problems, and YOU resent it > that some of us are looking deeper and not accepting your *A > soundbytes and pasteurized processed mcnuggets of information. I know > your life would be easier if you didn't have to defend what you > believe, but look how hard I have to work to defend MY beliefs. I'm > cutting you as much slack as you cut me. As soon as you have a little > compassion for people harmed by treatment, then we can talk about me > showing you some compassion. > > grrrrrrr...... > > judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2000 Report Share Posted October 23, 2000 > Go Judith, Go Judith Get your grrrrrrrr on..... > > Just to let you know I'm stealing this: *A soundbytes and pasteurized > processed mcnuggets of information hehe...the other night Jim Lehrer interviewed McNeil (I think I got their first names right), and they talked about the beginning of the McNeil Lehrer news hour. I stole " mcnuggets of information " from McNeil. Imagine being the guy who moderates the presidential debates. I haven't gone on Pilotline because I'm not comfortable giving my real name, and I'm not comfortable lying on the application. Feel free to re-post anything I wrote. Beware anyone who claims to be unselfish or unbiased; what they truly are is un-self aware. That's my opinion, at least. I guess, in my opinion, I have a better chance with someone who is openly selfish and biased, than someone who pretends to be altruistic. I'm at least kind of funny and interesting when I'm honest about taking care of myself. judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Judith: Thanks I took you up on your offer and blinded any personally identifiable information. > Re: This is amazing > > > > > Go Judith, Go Judith Get your grrrrrrrr on..... > > > > Just to let you know I'm stealing this: *A soundbytes and > pasteurized > > processed mcnuggets of information > > hehe...the other night Jim Lehrer interviewed McNeil (I think > I got their first names right), and they talked about the beginning > of > the McNeil Lehrer news hour. I stole " mcnuggets of information " from > McNeil. Imagine being the guy who moderates the presidential > debates. > > I haven't gone on Pilotline because I'm not comfortable giving my > real > name, and I'm not comfortable lying on the application. Feel free to > re-post anything I wrote. > > Beware anyone who claims to be unselfish or unbiased; what they truly > are is un-self aware. That's my opinion, at least. I guess, in my > opinion, I have a better chance with someone who is openly selfish > and > biased, than someone who pretends to be altruistic. I'm at least kind > of funny and interesting when I'm honest about taking care of myself. > > judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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