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RE: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

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Posted
Posted

No, Complex Place is intended and funded for autism. The IDEA asks or mandates that the state provides preschool programs for students with ASD.

This is what you can read on the Broward County web page:

"Complex PLACE – The Complex PLACE program is a full time, classroom program for preschool children with autism, or with characteristics of an autistic learner. Utilizing nationally-recognized, evidence-based practices developed for preschool autistic learners, this program is based on the principles of applied behavioral analysis. The program uses structured teaching methods including: visual schedules, data-based procedures, individually selected motivators, augmentative communication systems (ex: Picture Exchange Communication System - PECS), and a variety of prompting procedures."

Liz

Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...To: sList Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PMSubject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is "Complex Place"?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...Thank you so much

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Posted
Posted

The IDEA asks or mandates that the state provides preschool programs for students with ASD. You may want to cite where in the IDEA is states this. As far as I know IDEA intends the opposite which is the least restrictive environment for all disabilities. Complez Place would be considered more/most restrictive. Fran

Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...To: sList Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PMSubject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is "Complex Place"?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...Thank you so much

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Posted

How is it based on ABA?  Of course there is very little truth in

the description.

From: sList

[mailto:sList ] On Behalf Of Lizzie Berg

Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 12:07 AM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

No, Complex Place is intended and funded for autism. The

IDEA asks or mandates that the state provides preschool programs for students

with ASD.

This is what you can read on the Broward County web page:

" Complex

PLACE –

The Complex PLACE program is a full time, classroom program for preschool

children with autism, or with characteristics of an autistic learner.

Utilizing nationally-recognized, evidence-based practices developed for

preschool autistic learners, this program is based on the principles of

applied behavioral analysis. The program uses structured teaching

methods including: visual schedules, data-based procedures, individually

selected motivators, augmentative communication systems (ex: Picture

Exchange Communication System - PECS), and a variety of prompting

procedures. "

Liz

Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

To: sList

Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who

have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the

child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the

autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the

principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and

visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

From: Vivian

<vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is " Complex Place " ?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09,

2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups.

com

Subject:

Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make

the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it

in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone

about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the

school know we want to move.

Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard

anything about it, so I just don't know...

Thank you so much

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Posted
Posted

I think if you tour both Baudhuin, and your home school's Complex Place's program you come to a better decision. Everyone's needs and experiences are different.

The description according to the School Boards website is nice, but in reality how much of it really happens out in the Schools. Funding is being cut left and right and there are not properly trained staff or enough support staff.

I've had my two children in the two programs and I have my personal preference. Email me privately if you have any questions . vrojaspr@...

From: M Veliz <Velizbellsouth (DOT) net>Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...To: sList@ yahoogroups. comDate: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PMSubject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is "Complex Place"?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...Thank you so much

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Posted
Posted

Can anyone tell me how the Complex Place Program is “ based on the principles of

applied behavioral analysis.†I fail to see any connection.

From: Heifferon

Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:32 AM

To: 'sList '

Subject: RE: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

How is it based on ABA? Of course there is very little

truth in the description.

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of Lizzie Berg

Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 12:07 AM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

No, Complex Place is intended and funded for autism. The

IDEA asks or mandates that the state provides preschool programs for students

with ASD.

This is what you can read on the Broward County web page:

" Complex

PLACE –

The Complex PLACE program is a full time, classroom program for preschool

children with autism, or with characteristics of an autistic learner.

Utilizing nationally-recognized, evidence-based practices developed for

preschool autistic learners, this program is based on the principles of

applied behavioral analysis. The program uses structured teaching

methods including: visual schedules, data-based procedures, individually

selected motivators, augmentative communication systems (ex: Picture

Exchange Communication System - PECS), and a variety of prompting

procedures. "

Liz

Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

To: sList

Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who

have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the

child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the

autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the

principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and

visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

From: Vivian

<vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is " Complex Place " ?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09,

2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups.

com

Subject:

Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make

the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it

in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone

about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the

school know we want to move.

Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard

anything about it, so I just don't know...

Thank you so much

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Posted
Posted

,

we are back to the STAR curriculum we discussed a year ago or so. This is the new curriculum that was implemented last year. Any thoughts?

Liz

From: M Veliz <Velizbellsouth (DOT) net>Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...To: sList@ yahoogroups. comDate: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PMSubject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is "Complex Place"?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...Thank you so much

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Posted

No, you cannot compare Baudhuin to a Complex class because Baudhuin offers many classes that are quite different from Complex Place. Baudhuin receives children on the spectrum, but some are very high functioning, and would not be placed in a complex room. Remember Bauduin has almost 20 classrooms. Their students go on to centers as well as gen ed settings.

It is important for me that young parents are provided with accurate information, otherwise they won't be able to make appropriate choices, and our posting will be less helpful for those who want to learn. I think people should know what the county says about the various programs, don't you think?

It is quite possible that there are kids in the complex place who do not have autism, but that is not what the complex place is intended/ funded for.

The discussion about ABA is interesting.I have recently seen many articles related to "overcoming" autism after early, intense instruction. The Journal of Autism and Related Disabilities just published a peer reviewed research paper that showed that many kids were "dismissed" from autism after intense instruction. I am very skeptical to this, but open and receptive to the idea. What do you think? You can read the article on the journal's web page. Do you think that kids can "recover"? Have you seen it?

Liz

From: M Veliz <Velizbellsouth (DOT) net>Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...To: sList@ yahoogroups. comDate: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PMSubject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is "Complex Place"?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...Thank you so much

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Posted
Posted

Well, you shouldn’t say the Program is based on ABA if it isn’t.

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of Lizzie Berg

Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 1:57 AM

To: sList

Subject: RE: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

,

we are back to the STAR curriculum we discussed a year ago

or so. This is the new curriculum that was implemented last year. Any

thoughts?

Liz

From: M Veliz <Velizbellsouth (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who

have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the

child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in

the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the

principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment

and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is " Complex Place " ?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@

yahoogroups. com

Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the

only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour

some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.

Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never

heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

Thank you so much

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Posted
Posted

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because

they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time,

redirection...so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not

one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting.

Does it make sense? Or not?

>

>

>

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> To: sList

> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

>

> Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater

difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who

attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle

Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are

fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be

pleased! Good luck Vivian!

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

> What is " Complex Place " ?

>

>

>

> From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...>

>

> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups.

<http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList > com

>

> Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

>

>

> What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and

I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would

like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools

before letting the school know we want to move.

> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard

anything about it, so I just don't know...

> Thank you so much

>

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Posted
Posted

Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong... but the STAR is a curriculum, not a

methodology, so you could implement it using ABA methods, right? I could be

missing something in this discussion, but I can't see the incompatibility here

>

>

> From: M Veliz <Velizbellsouth (DOT) net>

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

>

>

>

>

>

> Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater

difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who

attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle

Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are

fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be

pleased! Good luck Vivian!

>

> Â

>

>

>

>

> From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

>

>

> What is " Complex Place " ?

>

>

> Â

>

>

> From: bijcom

>

> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

>

> Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

> Â

>

>

> What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and

I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would

like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools

before letting the school know we want to move.

> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard

anything about it, so I just don't know...

> Thank you so much

> Â

>

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Posted
Posted

Liz,

I am not one to get into a debate about anything that is brought up in this group, I like to see what peoples opinions are. I finally got enough "courage" to give my opinion about "overcoming" Autism. That word can mean so many different things depending on how you interpret the word overcoming. I believe that all the people in this group are great parents, care givers and professionals that want our children to achieve the best that they can.

Overcoming though, to me, is a touchy subject. I can overcome a fear I might have, or I might not....depending on that fear. I think that with dedicated people like those of us in this group, who want to find out as much information as possible on whats out there, those of us who advocate for change so we can give our kids the best treatment and life possible, and those professionals that want to help should get nothing less than praise all the time. But can someone on the ASD overcome it? Personally, over the years I have seen my son improve in many areas but who also needs help in many areas. I DO believe that these obstacles can be overcome as long as the people in his life, starting with my husband and myself, can push him.

To: sList Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:28:39 AMSubject: RE: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

No, you cannot compare Baudhuin to a Complex class because Baudhuin offers many classes that are quite different from Complex Place. Baudhuin receives children on the spectrum, but some are very high functioning, and would not be placed in a complex room. Remember Bauduin has almost 20 classrooms. Their students go on to centers as well as gen ed settings.

It is important for me that young parents are provided with accurate information, otherwise they won't be able to make appropriate choices, and our posting will be less helpful for those who want to learn. I think people should know what the county says about the various programs, don't you think?

It is quite possible that there are kids in the complex place who do not have autism, but that is not what the complex place is intended/ funded for.

The discussion about ABA is interesting. I have recently seen many articles related to "overcoming" autism after early, intense instruction. The Journal of Autism and Related Disabilities just published a peer reviewed research paper that showed that many kids were "dismissed" from autism after intense instruction. I am very skeptical to this, but open and receptive to the idea. What do you think? You can read the article on the journal's web page. Do you think that kids can "recover"? Have you seen it?

Liz

From: M Veliz <Velizbellsouth (DOT) net>Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...To: sList@ yahoogroups. comDate: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PMSubject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is "Complex Place"?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...Thank you so much

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Posted

The word “recovery†needs to be defined. I really don’t think a

child with autism “recovers†completely from autism. For example they might be

considered “healed†but still will maintain some symptoms like social shyness. I

think success depends a lot on how severe it is  and on  amount of behavioral

instruction the child receives.

ABA is a scientifically approved approach for treating autism.  

 

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of Lizzie Berg

Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:29 AM

To: sList

Subject: RE: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

No, you cannot compare Baudhuin to a Complex class because

Baudhuin offers many classes that are quite different from Complex Place.

Baudhuin receives children on the spectrum, but some are very high

functioning, and would not be placed in a complex room. Remember Bauduin has

almost 20 classrooms. Their students go on to centers as well as gen ed

settings.

It is important for me that young parents are

provided with accurate information, otherwise they won't be able to make

appropriate choices, and our posting will be less helpful for those who want

to learn. I think people should know what the county says about the various

programs, don't you think?

It is quite possible that there are kids in the complex

place who do not have autism, but that is not what the complex place is

intended/ funded for.

The discussion about ABA is interesting.I have recently

seen many articles related to " overcoming " autism after early,

intense instruction. The Journal of Autism and Related Disabilities just

published a peer reviewed research paper that showed that many kids were

" dismissed " from autism after intense instruction. I am very

skeptical to this, but open and receptive to the idea. What do you think? You

can read the article on the journal's web page. Do you think that kids

can " recover " ? Have you seen it?

Liz

From: M Veliz <Velizbellsouth (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who

have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the

child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in

the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school-

the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an

appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good

luck Vivian!

From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is " Complex Place " ?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@

yahoogroups. com

Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the

only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour

some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.

Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never

heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

Thank you so much

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Posted
Posted

I agree with you Greg. People with Autism can be healed and improve to the best of their abilities. Kids being mainstreamed in classes etc. Going through a child with Autism and seeing my day with leukemia is a lot. Tyler (son) improves every day and makes me so proud to be his mommy. My dad is doing great on the medicine hes on. Those wont go away 100% but they grow and get better day by day.

To: sList Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 1:33:30 PMSubject: RE: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

The word “recovery†needs to be defined. I really don’t think a child with autism “recovers†completely from autism. For example they might be considered “healed†but still will maintain some symptoms like social shyness. I think success depends a lot on how severe it is and on amount of behavioral instruction the child receives.

ABA is a scientifically approved approach for treating autism.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Lizzie BergSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:29 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: RE: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

No, you cannot compare Baudhuin to a Complex class because Baudhuin offers many classes that are quite different from Complex Place. Baudhuin receives children on the spectrum, but some are very high functioning, and would not be placed in a complex room. Remember Bauduin has almost 20 classrooms. Their students go on to centers as well as gen ed settings.

It is important for me that young parents are provided with accurate information, otherwise they won't be able to make appropriate choices, and our posting will be less helpful for those who want to learn. I think people should know what the county says about the various programs, don't you think?

It is quite possible that there are kids in the complex place who do not have autism, but that is not what the complex place is intended/ funded for.

The discussion about ABA is interesting. I have recently seen many articles related to "overcoming" autism after early, intense instruction. The Journal of Autism and Related Disabilities just published a peer reviewed research paper that showed that many kids were "dismissed" from autism after intense instruction. I am very skeptical to this, but open and receptive to the idea. What do you think? You can read the article on the journal's web page. Do you think that kids can "recover"? Have you seen it?

Liz

From: M Veliz <Velizbellsouth (DOT) net>Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...To: sList@ yahoogroups. comDate: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PMSubject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What is "Complex Place"?

From: bijcom

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...Thank you so much

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Posted
Posted

No, it still makes no sense. What is meant by having autistic

children in a group setting if they don’t know they are participating in a

group? But “based on†bothers me the most. Based on to me is a meaningless term

because it can mean anything. And in fact using based on practices may do harm.

Why use something based on the principals of ABA when it is ABA itself that is

recognized in the scientific community as a remedy to the problem. In fact most

Starr Programs use ABA as a necessary part of the Program. Its like surgically

removing the heart and expecting the patient to survive.

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of bijcom

Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in

Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials

during teacher time, redirection...so it's based on ABA priciples, or

methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same

principles in a group setting. Does it make sense? Or not?

>

>

>

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> To: sList

> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

>

> Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater

difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who

attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle

Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are

fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be

pleased! Good luck Vivian!

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

> What is " Complex Place " ?

>

>

>

> From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...>

>

> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >

com

>

> Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

>

>

> What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place

and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I

would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the

schools before letting the school know we want to move.

> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never

heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> Thank you so much

>

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Posted
Posted

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the

group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical

data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school

district’s program  conveniently doesn’t use. So, based on is baseless.

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of bijcom

Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in

Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials

during teacher time, redirection...so it's based on ABA priciples, or

methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same

principles in a group setting. Does it make sense? Or not?

>

>

>

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> To: sList

> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

>

> Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater

difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who

attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle

Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are

fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be

pleased! Good luck Vivian!

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

> What is " Complex Place " ?

>

>

>

> From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...>

>

> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >

com

>

> Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

>

>

> What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place

and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I

would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the

schools before letting the school know we want to move.

> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never

heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> Thank you so much

>

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Posted
Posted

The individual school determine which programs they wish to utilize. There are schools that use the STAR program, TouchMath and Edmark.

And ABA can be utilized in a group. They are teaching principles. They can be utilized anywhere and with anyone. It is not only discrete trials, which is probably one of the worst parts of ABA (my opinion only). Natural Environment Teaching (likely in a group, because how much NET can occur in a one-to-one situation?) is considered best practice.

In cluster programs, the kids do get one-to-one for about 15 minutes each day, to work on their individual iep goals. Maybe more than once a day for some.

When schools, or districts, say they use the principles of ABA, they likely do use the principles. It merely means they do not have Board Certified Behavior Analysts or Board Certified Associate Behavior Analysts on staff doing the work themselves. BCBA's and BCABA's cost too much. It's like saying you use a brand name product when there are trademark laws about that. So, you copy the product and do the same thing.

Not that it would not be a great thing to have them on staff; I am all for that. But complaining about it on deniseslist will get us nowhere. It needs to go higher than that.

From: Heifferon

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19 PM

To: sList

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school district’s program conveniently doesn’t use. So, based on is baseless.

From: sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf Of bijcomSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AMTo: sList Subject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection...so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting. Does it make sense? Or not?> > > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> To: sList > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> > > > > _____ > > > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > What is "Complex Place"?> > > > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList > com > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> Thank you so much>

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Posted
Posted

You can certainly use ABA principals in a group setting. Groups respond to

reinforcements as do individuals. A token system is one example of a group ABA

approach where there are rules for the group in general but you can

individualize it to the needs of a specific child.

In short, , as a BCBA I can tell you that we do not reject the group

concept. We just don't forget that there are individuals within the group.....

Shirly Gilad

> >

> >

> > From: M Veliz <Veliz@>

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > To: sList <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

> > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

> >

> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater

difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who

attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle

Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are

fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be

pleased! Good luck Vivian!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> >

> > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> > What is " Complex Place " ?

> >

> >

> >

> > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@>

> >

> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

> >

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups.

<http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList > com

> >

> > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> >

> >

> > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place

and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I

would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the

schools before letting the school know we want to move.

> > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

> > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard

anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > Thank you so much

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

To: sList Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school district’s program conveniently doesn’t use. So, based on is baseless.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bijcomSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting. Does it make sense? Or not?> > > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> > > > > _____ > > > From: Vivian

<vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > What is "Complex Place"?> > > > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. com> com > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP

meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> Thank you so much>

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Posted
Posted

Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not   just

a part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching. And how

do you teach a child in a group who doesn’t think he’s in a group? And what

does the child do while you are teaching someone else he does not recognize?

Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive and it is a waste of time for the

child who is waiting for that one-on-one.  

From: sList

[mailto:sList ] On Behalf Of Wihlborg

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not

ina group setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary

school and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to

? I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

To: sList

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very

nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity.

Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an

ABA component which the school district’s program conveniently doesn’t

use. So, based on is baseless.

From:

sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On

Behalf Of bijcom

Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because

they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection.

...so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy

but you can still use the same principles in a group setting. Does it make

sense? Or not?

>

>

>

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> To: sList@

yahoogroups. com

> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

>

> Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater

difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who

attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle

Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are

fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be

pleased! Good luck Vivian!

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

> What is " Complex Place " ?

>

>

>

> From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107.

mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...>

>

> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@

yahoogroups.. com> com

>

> Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

>

>

> What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place

and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I

would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the

schools before letting the school know we want to move.

> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never

heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> Thank you so much

>

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Posted
Posted

Hear Hear! :)

I used/use ABA principles both in 1:1 therapy and in the classroom and

have assisted in teaching those same principles to special ed teachers

pursuing their master's degrees. As was said in another post, a

classroom group is composed of individual students who are taught

expectations proactively, prompted, differentially reinforced for

displays of desired behaviors. It's individual students who engage in

behaviors whose functions need to be ascertained, and a savvy,

well-trained teacher is capable of engaging in this process. It's the

hunger, fatigue, illness, and distress of individual students in the

classroom that must be identified by teachers and support staff so that

seemingly inexplicable meltdowns can, perhaps, be brought under control,

anticipated, and even prevented. Even discrete trials can have their

place (as much as I don't like them, either, and also much prefer

natural environment-based approaches like incidental teaching and milieu

teaching)--the problem is that they're too often WAY over-used, and used

at the wrong point in a learner's education. Manding should be developed

in the natural environment, first, and then skills cycle from natural

environment to discrete trial as the nature and sophistication of the

skills changes.

Tina Terri Austin wrote:

>

>

> The individual school determine which programs they wish to utilize.

> There are schools that use the STAR program, TouchMath and Edmark.

> And ABA can be utilized in a group. They are teaching principles. They

> can be utilized anywhere and with anyone. It is not only discrete

> trials, which is probably one of the worst parts of ABA (my opinion

> only). Natural Environment Teaching (likely in a group, because how

> much NET can occur in a one-to-one situation?) is considered best

> practice.

> In cluster programs, the kids do get one-to-one for about 15 minutes

> each day, to work on their individual iep goals. Maybe more than once

> a day for some.

> When schools, or districts, say they use the principles of ABA, they

> likely do use the principles. It merely means they do not have Board

> Certified Behavior Analysts or Board Certified Associate Behavior

> Analysts on staff doing the work themselves. BCBA's and BCABA's cost

> too much. It's like saying you use a brand name product when there are

> trademark laws about that. So, you copy the product and do the same

> thing.

> Not that it would not be a great thing to have them on staff; I am all

> for that. But complaining about it on deniseslist will get us nowhere.

> It needs to go higher than that.

>

> *From:* Heifferon

> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19 PM

> *To:* sList <mailto:sList >

> *Subject:* RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group

> concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some

> empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component

> which the school district’s program conveniently doesn’t use. So,

> based on is baseless.

>

> *From:* sList

> <mailto:sList >

> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of *bijcom

> *Sent:* Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM

> *To:* sList

> *Subject:* Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

>

>

>

> , I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's

> because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher

> time, redirection...so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology.

> It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles

> in a group setting. Does it make sense? Or not?

>

>

> >

> >

> >

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > To: sList <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

> > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

> >

> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have

> greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some

> students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism

> spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal

> and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and

> visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> >

> > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> > What is " Complex Place " ?

> >

> >

> >

> > From: bijcom

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...>>

> >

> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

> >

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups.

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >>

> com

> >

> > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> >

> >

> > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

> Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that

> the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs

> and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to

> move.

> > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> according to another post...

> > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > Thank you so much

> >

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Are you talking about the whole concept of using ABA within a group or

specifically about " Teacher Time " ? It does bother me as well that my kid has

" teacher time " with at least one other kid, instead of one-on-one.

He is always waiting on the other kids to finish and yes, that creates problems,

he starts stimming because he gets bored.

That's the one thing that bothers me the most about what they do in schools

here. Now is that teacher time with multiple kids part of the STAR program or a

" modification " made to the school's advantage?

I believe it's just a way of cutting costs, much like the whole deal with

providing speech " therapy " in groups. Sure it works for some and I get the

pragmatics component/concept but there's non-verbal kids not getting one-on-one

speech because " it's not the best way to do it " speech from schools.

Can you imagine the expense that would create to provide one-on-one ABA in

schools? Each and every kid would qualify for it and we all know how expensive

good behavior analysts are, so you can tell that's not happening, ever.

Ok, all this to say that I still believe that the principles can be used in a

group (Dr. Partington even has a seminar about it, and he has an VB-based

school)but should not replace one-on-one therapy.

> >

> >

> > From: M Veliz <Veliz@>

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > To: sList@ <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups. com

> > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

> >

> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater

difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who

attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle

Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are

fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be

pleased! Good luck Vivian!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> >

> > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> > What is " Complex Place " ?

> >

> >

> >

> > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107.

<http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@> mail.yahoo.

com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...>

> >

> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

> >

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose?

to=sList@

<http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >

yahoogroups.. com> com

> >

> > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> >

> >

> > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place

and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I

would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the

schools before letting the school know we want to move.

> > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

> > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard

anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > Thank you so much

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

That was much better stated than what I had stated, so I will just echo this

below: (it should be noted that I think I wrote that early in the morning

if that accounts for anything in my rambling thoughts) :-)

--------------------------------------------------

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:18 PM

To: <sList >

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

> Hear Hear! :)

>

> I used/use ABA principles both in 1:1 therapy and in the classroom and

> have assisted in teaching those same principles to special ed teachers

> pursuing their master's degrees. As was said in another post, a

> classroom group is composed of individual students who are taught

> expectations proactively, prompted, differentially reinforced for

> displays of desired behaviors. It's individual students who engage in

> behaviors whose functions need to be ascertained, and a savvy,

> well-trained teacher is capable of engaging in this process. It's the

> hunger, fatigue, illness, and distress of individual students in the

> classroom that must be identified by teachers and support staff so that

> seemingly inexplicable meltdowns can, perhaps, be brought under control,

> anticipated, and even prevented. Even discrete trials can have their

> place (as much as I don't like them, either, and also much prefer

> natural environment-based approaches like incidental teaching and milieu

> teaching)--the problem is that they're too often WAY over-used, and used

> at the wrong point in a learner's education. Manding should be developed

> in the natural environment, first, and then skills cycle from natural

> environment to discrete trial as the nature and sophistication of the

> skills changes.

>

> Tina Terri Austin wrote:

>>

>>

>> The individual school determine which programs they wish to utilize.

>> There are schools that use the STAR program, TouchMath and Edmark.

>> And ABA can be utilized in a group. They are teaching principles. They

>> can be utilized anywhere and with anyone. It is not only discrete

>> trials, which is probably one of the worst parts of ABA (my opinion

>> only). Natural Environment Teaching (likely in a group, because how

>> much NET can occur in a one-to-one situation?) is considered best

>> practice.

>> In cluster programs, the kids do get one-to-one for about 15 minutes

>> each day, to work on their individual iep goals. Maybe more than once

>> a day for some.

>> When schools, or districts, say they use the principles of ABA, they

>> likely do use the principles. It merely means they do not have Board

>> Certified Behavior Analysts or Board Certified Associate Behavior

>> Analysts on staff doing the work themselves. BCBA's and BCABA's cost

>> too much. It's like saying you use a brand name product when there are

>> trademark laws about that. So, you copy the product and do the same

>> thing.

>> Not that it would not be a great thing to have them on staff; I am all

>> for that. But complaining about it on deniseslist will get us nowhere.

>> It needs to go higher than that.

>>

>> *From:* Heifferon

>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19 PM

>> *To:* sList <mailto:sList >

>> *Subject:* RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>>

>> ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group

>> concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some

>> empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component

>> which the school district’s program conveniently doesn’t use. So,

>> based on is baseless.

>>

>> *From:* sList

>> <mailto:sList >

>> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of *bijcom

>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM

>> *To:* sList

>> *Subject:* Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> , I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's

>> because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher

>> time, redirection...so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology.

>> It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles

>> in a group setting. Does it make sense? Or not?

>>

>>

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>> > To: sList <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

>> > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

>> >

>> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have

>> greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some

>> students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism

>> spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal

>> and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and

>> visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > _____

>> >

>> >

>> > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

>> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

>> > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

>> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>> >

>> > What is " Complex Place " ?

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > From: bijcom

>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...

>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...>>

>> >

>> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

>> >

>> > To: sList@ yahoogroups.

>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList

>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >>

>> com

>> >

>> > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

>> Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that

>> the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs

>> and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to

>> move.

>> > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

>> according to another post...

>> > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

>> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

>> > Thank you so much

>> >

>>

>>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

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Posted
Posted

STAR is a curriculum, not a method of teaching. They, too, utilize the "principals of ABA." They use discrete trials in most cases to teach concepts. I assume (and hope) that at some point it fades out to teaching the concepts in the natural environment to promote generalization.

STAR has 3 levels of their curriculum and can be tailored to each individual child. Some of the curriculum actually continues moving forward to teach other skills outside of the ABLLS.

Your question, "how do you teach a child in a group who doesn't think he's in a group?" What does that mean? The child doesn't need to think or even know he is in a group to learn. In fact, based on the principals of ABA, he could be a rat as he would just respond to reinforcement of certain behaviors. Nobody has to "know" or "think" or "understand".

I know you are concerned about your grandson and the services he receives, or does not receive, in his school. I don't know where he attends school so I cannot attest to what occurs in that particular school's autism program. However, I also recognize that parents come to a time (as did I) where we feel we have to make a decision. Do we push for our kid to be educated or do we settle (or feel like we are settling) for them being happy? I am not by any means saying this is what "should" be happening but my guess is it does with many parents. There are times I am not fully satisfied with something at my son's school but ultimately he is learning and he is happy. Sometimes, I believe he could be learning more with a one-to-one teacher/behavior specialist but is that practical and is that their job or is there some part I am accountable for? When "typical" kids are falling behind in reading, their parents get tutors, not press the schools to do more with their child. Just a thought. I guess for us, we decided that if he stays with us forever, he stays with us forever and we will plan for that; if that is what he wants and can do. This does not mean in any way that we are giving up on him or his education or in teaching him what we think he needs to know to survive and continue to be happy in his life. His happiness is far more important to us than if he can regurgitate some academic information. We want him to be safe, learn more of the hidden curriculum and have a friend or 2. Whatever he can do and what he wants for himself. I also know this is easy for me to say at this time because he is doing really well and is only in kindergarten. When he reaches high school, this may be a totally different conversation. These viewpoints also change on a regular basis. This is today, this morning, early thoughts when everything is good.

In an ideal world, all ESE teachers would also hold certifications in behavior analysis. All administrators would ensure our kids receive every curriculum they need based on them as individuals (Edmark, Touchmath, ABLLS, VB-MAPP, etc.). All administrators would support our ESE programs in their schools and welcome us and our kids to their schools and make every effort to accommodate and include our kids in the most positive atmosphere. The entire multi-disciplinary team would be at our kids' disposals for every need and the consultations would happen on a regular basis. Funding for programs would be available. Funding BCBA's/BCaBA's would be available. I could go on...

Ok, that is my morning rant. , I know you are frustrated with this system. You appear to be a very vocal and informed advocate for your grandson and your daughter. Have you been involved in any advocacy on a larger scale? For example, to find funding for ABA in the school system?

From: Heifferon

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11 PM

To: sList

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not just a part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching. And how do you teach a child in a group who doesn’t think he’s in a group? And what does the child do while you are teaching someone else he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that one-on-one.

From: sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf Of WihlborgSent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AMTo: sList Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

From: Heifferon <gary00001msn>To: sList Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school district’s program conveniently doesn’t use. So, based on is baseless.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bijcomSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting. Does it make sense? Or not?> > > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> > > > > _____ > > > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > What is "Complex Place"?> > > > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. com> com > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> Thank you so much>

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Posted
Posted

,

My son goes to school in Broward County and is on the STAR program. Have you visited there website to review the materials? The school board spends around $600 per child for this program. My son is excelling on the STAR program. He does group and individual lessons with his teachers and class. There are only 6 to 7 kids in his class and 2 teacher assistants. His school works with him in idenifying his peers and teachers. Any child, in my opinion, needs 1 on 1 a well as group time.

To: sList Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11:46 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not just a part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching. And how do you teach a child in a group who doesn’t think he’s in a group? And what does the child do while you are teaching someone else he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that one-on-one.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of WihlborgSent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

From: Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school district’s program conveniently doesn’t use. So, based on is baseless.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bijcomSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting. Does it make sense? Or not?> > > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> > > > > _____ > > > From: Vivian

<vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > What is "Complex Place"?> > > > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. . com> com > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP

meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> Thank you so much>

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Posted
Posted

Tina, I think what you said was good.

To: sList Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:21:17 AMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

STAR is a curriculum, not a method of teaching. They, too, utilize the "principals of ABA." They use discrete trials in most cases to teach concepts. I assume (and hope) that at some point it fades out to teaching the concepts in the natural environment to promote generalization.

STAR has 3 levels of their curriculum and can be tailored to each individual child. Some of the curriculum actually continues moving forward to teach other skills outside of the ABLLS.

Your question, "how do you teach a child in a group who doesn't think he's in a group?" What does that mean? The child doesn't need to think or even know he is in a group to learn. In fact, based on the principals of ABA, he could be a rat as he would just respond to reinforcement of certain behaviors. Nobody has to "know" or "think" or "understand" .

I know you are concerned about your grandson and the services he receives, or does not receive, in his school. I don't know where he attends school so I cannot attest to what occurs in that particular school's autism program. However, I also recognize that parents come to a time (as did I) where we feel we have to make a decision. Do we push for our kid to be educated or do we settle (or feel like we are settling) for them being happy? I am not by any means saying this is what "should" be happening but my guess is it does with many parents. There are times I am not fully satisfied with something at my son's school but ultimately he is learning and he is happy. Sometimes, I believe he could be learning more with a one-to-one teacher/behavior specialist but is that practical and is that their job or is there some part I am accountable for? When "typical" kids are falling

behind in reading, their parents get tutors, not press the schools to do more with their child. Just a thought. I guess for us, we decided that if he stays with us forever, he stays with us forever and we will plan for that; if that is what he wants and can do. This does not mean in any way that we are giving up on him or his education or in teaching him what we think he needs to know to survive and continue to be happy in his life. His happiness is far more important to us than if he can regurgitate some academic information. We want him to be safe, learn more of the hidden curriculum and have a friend or 2. Whatever he can do and what he wants for himself. I also know this is easy for me to say at this time because he is doing really well and is only in kindergarten. When he reaches high school, this may be a totally different conversation. These viewpoints also change on a regular

basis. This is today, this morning, early thoughts when everything is good.

In an ideal world, all ESE teachers would also hold certifications in behavior analysis. All administrators would ensure our kids receive every curriculum they need based on them as individuals (Edmark, Touchmath, ABLLS, VB-MAPP, etc.). All administrators would support our ESE programs in their schools and welcome us and our kids to their schools and make every effort to accommodate and include our kids in the most positive atmosphere. The entire multi-disciplinary team would be at our kids' disposals for every need and the consultations would happen on a regular basis. Funding for programs would be available. Funding BCBA's/BCaBA' s would be available. I could go on...

Ok, that is my morning rant. , I know you are frustrated with this system. You appear to be a very vocal and informed advocate for your grandson and your daughter. Have you been involved in any advocacy on a larger scale? For example, to find funding for ABA in the school system?

From: Heifferon

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not just a part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching. And how do you teach a child in a group who doesn’t think he’s in a group? And what does the child do while you are teaching someone else he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that one-on-one.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of WihlborgSent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

From: Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school district’s program conveniently doesn’t use. So, based on is baseless.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bijcomSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting.. Does it make sense? Or not?> > > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> > > > > _____ > > > From: Vivian

<vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > What is "Complex Place"?> > > > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. . com> com > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP

meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> Thank you so much>

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