RE: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

May 28, 2009

Thanks! No worries about your early-morning thoughts, though--they are quite good! I really respected your coverage of the STAR program and discussion of related issues. We can do no great things, only small things with great love. --Mother To: sList Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:50:45 AMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

That was much better stated than what I had stated, so I will just echo this below: (it should be noted that I think I wrote that early in the morning if that accounts for anything in my rambling thoughts) :-)--------------------------------------------------Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:18 PMTo: <sList >Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place> Hear Hear! >> I used/use ABA principles both in 1:1 therapy and in the classroom and> have assisted in teaching those same principles to special ed teachers> pursuing their master's degrees. As was said in another post, a> classroom group

is composed of individual students who are taught> expectations proactively, prompted, differentially reinforced for> displays of desired behaviors. It's individual students who engage in> behaviors whose functions need to be ascertained, and a savvy,> well-trained teacher is capable of engaging in this process. It's the> hunger, fatigue, illness, and distress of individual students in the> classroom that must be identified by teachers and support staff so that> seemingly inexplicable meltdowns can, perhaps, be brought under control,> anticipated, and even prevented. Even discrete trials can have their> place (as much as I don't like them, either, and also much prefer> natural environment-based approaches like incidental teaching and milieu> teaching)--the problem is that they're too often WAY over-used, and used> at the wrong point in a learner's education. Manding

should be developed> in the natural environment, first, and then skills cycle from natural> environment to discrete trial as the nature and sophistication of the> skills changes.>> Tina Terri Austin wrote:>>>>>> The individual school determine which programs they wish to utilize.>> There are schools that use the STAR program, TouchMath and Edmark.>> And ABA can be utilized in a group. They are teaching principles. They>> can be utilized anywhere and with anyone. It is not only discrete>> trials, which is probably one of the worst parts of ABA (my opinion>> only). Natural Environment Teaching (likely in a group, because how>> much NET can occur in a one-to-one situation?) is considered best>> practice.>> In cluster programs, the kids do get one-to-one for about 15 minutes>> each day, to work on their

individual iep goals. Maybe more than once>> a day for some.>> When schools, or districts, say they use the principles of ABA, they>> likely do use the principles. It merely means they do not have Board>> Certified Behavior Analysts or Board Certified Associate Behavior>> Analysts on staff doing the work themselves. BCBA's and BCABA's cost>> too much. It's like saying you use a brand name product when there are>> trademark laws about that. So, you copy the product and do the same>> thing.>> Not that it would not be a great thing to have them on staff; I am all>> for that. But complaining about it on deniseslist will get us nowhere.>> It needs to go higher than that.>>>> *From:* Heifferon >> *Sent:* Tuesday,

May 26, 2009 9:19 PM>> *To:* sList <mailto:sList >>> *Subject:* RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place>>>> ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group>> concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some>> empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component>> which the school districtâ€™s program conveniently doesnâ€™t use. So,>> based on is baseless.>>>> *From:* sList >> <mailto:sList >>> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of *bijcom>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM>> *To:* sList >> *Subject:* Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place>>>>>>>>>> , I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's>> because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher>> time, redirection...so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology.>> It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles>> in a group setting. Does it

make sense? Or not?>>>> >> >>> >>> > >> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...>> > To: sList <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>>> > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM>> >>> > Complex place is a smaller

group setting of students who have>> greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some>> students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism>> spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal>> and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and>> visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > _____>> >>> >>> > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>>> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com>> > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM>> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...>> >>> > What is "Complex Place"?>> >>> >>> >>> > From: bijcom>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...>>>> >>> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM>> >>> > To: sList@ yahoogroups.>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >>>> com>> >>> > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...>>

>>> >>> >>> > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex>> Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that>> the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs>> and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to>> move.>> > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising>> according to another post...>> > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've>> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...>> > Thank you so much>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------>>

May 28, 2009

Using ABA principles and using ABA-DT are not the same. You are taking a

scientific approach and watering it down and assuming that approach is

scientifically verifiable. Show me the data and research to verify your

assertion. I agree you need a savvy, well trained teacher but trained in what?

How many have training in apraxia and other common mishaps associated with

autism? I feel it is more important to start with the discrete trial first and

then to generalize. Isn't the school an example of the natural environment? My

greater concern is not where but when and how often.

When the errorless teaching occurs in the classroom it is done in segments of 15

minutes. You can ask any behaviorist and he will tell you that brief 15 minute

segments are not appropriate and is an inadequate approach to using ABA

instruction. They only get about 15 minutes per day? You should all go and hide!

The problem might be you donâ€™t have the appropriate staff.

I agree you don't need a board certified person to conduct the exercises but you

need a certified person to supervise the program and determine the direction it

takes. But the school district doesn't even " copy " the appropriate program. And

to insist that copying the principals is sufficient is equivalent take

medication at a lower dosage then what is required whose affects are inadequate

and not appropriate. Maybe if you had board certified on staff you would have a

better staff and might even need fewer " educational staff " It is not a question

of sending this dilemma to a higher source because that source is the school

district who won't do anything. I don't agree that this type of discussion will

get us nowhere on slist. Where else can one go?

Itâ€™s a shame that a child's the IEP's is centered around STAR and not the

other way around.

And to the parents who praise the STAR Program I would ask them that just

perhaps, if it was done the right way, their child might be doing a lot better.

Never settle for mediocrity.

Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

> Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that

> the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs

> and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to

> move.

> > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> according to another post...

> > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > Thank you so much

> >

>

------------------------------------

May 28, 2009

And what about the autistic child who has social issues and

therefore needs the one-on-one. In this case the group serves no purpose and

will waist time when others in the group or the group itself are being

addressed. If the child can act as part of the group I would hope he is in a

regular class.

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of shirlygilad

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:03 AM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

You can certainly use ABA principals in a group

setting. Groups respond to reinforcements as do individuals. A token system is

one example of a group ABA approach where there are rules for the group in

general but you can individualize it to the needs of a specific child.

In short, , as a BCBA I can tell you that we do not reject the group

concept. We just don't forget that there are individuals within the group.....

Shirly Gilad

> >

> > From: M Veliz <Veliz@>

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > To: sList

<mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

> > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

> >

> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater

difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who

attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle

Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are

fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be

pleased! Good luck Vivian!

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> > What is " Complex Place " ?

> >

> > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@>

> >

> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

> >

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >

com

> >

> > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only

way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of

the schools before letting the school know we want to move.

> > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according

to another post...

> > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > Thank you so much

> >

>

May 29, 2009

Thanks! I was nervous about my comments regarding feeling as if we need to make a choice at times between fighting for our kids' education and their happiness. I did not want that to be misconstrued or misunderstood to mean that ultimately that is where we are at as parents. In some cases, it may be, in some it is not and we all go through phases as our kids grow. Like I said, my son is in kindergarten and functioning rather well at this time both academically and that he is happy. But, I cannot predict how he may be functioning in the future. We will just have to see.

From: Wihlborg

Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:00 PM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Tina, I think what you said was good.

From: Tina Terri Austin <austintandtbellsouth (DOT) net>To: sList Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:21:17 AMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

STAR is a curriculum, not a method of teaching. They, too, utilize the "principals of ABA." They use discrete trials in most cases to teach concepts. I assume (and hope) that at some point it fades out to teaching the concepts in the natural environment to promote generalization.

STAR has 3 levels of their curriculum and can be tailored to each individual child. Some of the curriculum actually continues moving forward to teach other skills outside of the ABLLS.

Your question, "how do you teach a child in a group who doesn't think he's in a group?" What does that mean? The child doesn't need to think or even know he is in a group to learn. In fact, based on the principals of ABA, he could be a rat as he would just respond to reinforcement of certain behaviors. Nobody has to "know" or "think" or "understand" .

I know you are concerned about your grandson and the services he receives, or does not receive, in his school. I don't know where he attends school so I cannot attest to what occurs in that particular school's autism program. However, I also recognize that parents come to a time (as did I) where we feel we have to make a decision. Do we push for our kid to be educated or do we settle (or feel like we are settling) for them being happy? I am not by any means saying this is what "should" be happening but my guess is it does with many parents. There are times I am not fully satisfied with something at my son's school but ultimately he is learning and he is happy. Sometimes, I believe he could be learning more with a one-to-one teacher/behavior specialist but is that practical and is that their job or is there some part I am accountable for? When "typical" kids are falling behind in reading, their parents get tutors, not press the schools to do more with their child. Just a thought. I guess for us, we decided that if he stays with us forever, he stays with us forever and we will plan for that; if that is what he wants and can do. This does not mean in any way that we are giving up on him or his education or in teaching him what we think he needs to know to survive and continue to be happy in his life. His happiness is far more important to us than if he can regurgitate some academic information. We want him to be safe, learn more of the hidden curriculum and have a friend or 2. Whatever he can do and what he wants for himself. I also know this is easy for me to say at this time because he is doing really well and is only in kindergarten. When he reaches high school, this may be a totally different conversation. These viewpoints also change on a regular basis. This is today, this morning, early thoughts when everything is good.

In an ideal world, all ESE teachers would also hold certifications in behavior analysis. All administrators would ensure our kids receive every curriculum they need based on them as individuals (Edmark, Touchmath, ABLLS, VB-MAPP, etc.). All administrators would support our ESE programs in their schools and welcome us and our kids to their schools and make every effort to accommodate and include our kids in the most positive atmosphere. The entire multi-disciplinary team would be at our kids' disposals for every need and the consultations would happen on a regular basis. Funding for programs would be available. Funding BCBA's/BCaBA' s would be available. I could go on...

Ok, that is my morning rant. , I know you are frustrated with this system. You appear to be a very vocal and informed advocate for your grandson and your daughter. Have you been involved in any advocacy on a larger scale? For example, to find funding for ABA in the school system?

From: Heifferon

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not just a part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching. And how do you teach a child in a group who doesnâ€™t think heâ€™s in a group? And what does the child do while you are teaching someone else he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that one-on-one.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of WihlborgSent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

From: Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school districtâ€™s program conveniently doesnâ€™t use. So, based on is baseless.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bijcomSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting.. Does it make sense? Or not?> > > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> > > > > _____ > > > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > What is "Complex Place"?> > > > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. . com> com > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> Thank you so much>

May 29, 2009

The school district has been known to use their federal grant

money for classroom needs and I wouldnâ€™t be surprised they also use it for the

STAR Programs. Where does the $600 figure come from. Iâ€™m glad to see that the

STAR Program is working for your child but that still doesnâ€™t mean that the

Program is working for the children. As you go up the Spectrum it requires more

diligent attention to the problem and therefore more work. The program is so

focused on what I call Occupational Therapies that they forget the academic

demands which should require a greater shift in that direction. It is great

that my grandson can dress and undress himself. Thank God for shorts and

pullovers! But what about academics? Letâ€™s push him in that direction and worry

about him dressing himself for next year.

Many autistic children have very serious social problems and he doesnâ€™t

respond as part of a group. Progress can only be achieved one on one. But group

awareness and participation is extremely important for all of us and hopefully he

will overcome the problem. Letâ€™s keep in mind that autism has nothing to do

with intelligence. He may have a problem with articulation but that has nothing

to do with learning. He is neither blind nor deaf. Â

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of Wihlborg

Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 8:53 AM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

,

My son goes to school in Broward County and is on the STAR

program. Have you visited there website to review the materials? The school

board spends around $600 per child for this program. My son is excelling on the

STAR program. He does group and individual lessons with his teachers and class.

There are only 6 to 7 kids in his class and 2 teacher assistants. His school

works with him in idenifying his peers and teachers. Any child, in my

opinion, needs 1 on 1 a well as group time.

To: sList

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11:46 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Broward. How does the Star Program address

the Spectrum and not just a part of it? Also Star is not a

curriculum but a method of teaching. And how do you teach a child in a group

who doesnâ€™t think heâ€™s in a group? And what does the child do while you are

teaching someone else he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very

intensive and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that

one-on-one.

From:

sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On

Behalf Of Wihlborg

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I

agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group

setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and

he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know

that my son's school uses it for their students.

From:

Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very

nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity.

Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an

ABA component which the school districtâ€™s program conveniently doesnâ€™t

use. So, based on is baseless.

From:

sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On

Behalf Of bijcom

Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because

they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection.

...so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy

but you can still use the same principles in a group setting. Does it make

sense? Or not?

>

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> To: sList@

yahoogroups. com

> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

>

> Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater

difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who

attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle

Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are

fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be

pleased! Good luck Vivian!

>

> _____

>

> From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

> What is " Complex Place " ?

>

> From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107.

mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...>

>

> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@

yahoogroups.. . com> com

>

> Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

> What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place

and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I

would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the

schools before letting the school know we want to move.

> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never

heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> Thank you so much

>

May 29, 2009

Tina, I think what you said was perfect. We will just have to see. Next week I will be attending my son's kindergarden graduation....and I am so proud of him. He is happy.

To: sList Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 5:41:58 AMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Thanks! I was nervous about my comments regarding feeling as if we need to make a choice at times between fighting for our kids' education and their happiness. I did not want that to be misconstrued or misunderstood to mean that ultimately that is where we are at as parents. In some cases, it may be, in some it is not and we all go through phases as our kids grow. Like I said, my son is in kindergarten and functioning rather well at this time both academically and that he is happy. But, I cannot predict how he may be functioning in the future. We will just have to see.

From: Wihlborg

Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:00 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Tina, I think what you said was good.

From: Tina Terri Austin <austintandt@ bellsouth. net>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:21:17 AMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

STAR is a curriculum, not a method of teaching. They, too, utilize the "principals of ABA." They use discrete trials in most cases to teach concepts. I assume (and hope) that at some point it fades out to teaching the concepts in the natural environment to promote generalization.

STAR has 3 levels of their curriculum and can be tailored to each individual child. Some of the curriculum actually continues moving forward to teach other skills outside of the ABLLS.

Your question, "how do you teach a child in a group who doesn't think he's in a group?" What does that mean? The child doesn't need to think or even know he is in a group to learn. In fact, based on the principals of ABA, he could be a rat as he would just respond to reinforcement of certain behaviors. Nobody has to "know" or "think" or "understand" .

I know you are concerned about your grandson and the services he receives, or does not receive, in his school. I don't know where he attends school so I cannot attest to what occurs in that particular school's autism program. However, I also recognize that parents come to a time (as did I) where we feel we have to make a decision. Do we push for our kid to be educated or do we settle (or feel like we are settling) for them being happy? I am not by any means saying this is what "should" be happening but my guess is it does with many parents. There are times I am not fully satisfied with something at my son's school but ultimately he is learning and he is happy. Sometimes, I believe he could be learning more with a one-to-one teacher/behavior specialist but is that practical and is that their job or is there some part I am accountable for? When "typical" kids are falling

behind in reading, their parents get tutors, not press the schools to do more with their child. Just a thought. I guess for us, we decided that if he stays with us forever, he stays with us forever and we will plan for that; if that is what he wants and can do. This does not mean in any way that we are giving up on him or his education or in teaching him what we think he needs to know to survive and continue to be happy in his life. His happiness is far more important to us than if he can regurgitate some academic information. We want him to be safe, learn more of the hidden curriculum and have a friend or 2. Whatever he can do and what he wants for himself. I also know this is easy for me to say at this time because he is doing really well and is only in kindergarten. When he reaches high school, this may be a totally different conversation. These viewpoints also change on a regular

basis. This is today, this morning, early thoughts when everything is good.

In an ideal world, all ESE teachers would also hold certifications in behavior analysis. All administrators would ensure our kids receive every curriculum they need based on them as individuals (Edmark, Touchmath, ABLLS, VB-MAPP, etc.). All administrators would support our ESE programs in their schools and welcome us and our kids to their schools and make every effort to accommodate and include our kids in the most positive atmosphere. The entire multi-disciplinary team would be at our kids' disposals for every need and the consultations would happen on a regular basis. Funding for programs would be available. Funding BCBA's/BCaBA' s would be available. I could go on...

Ok, that is my morning rant. , I know you are frustrated with this system. You appear to be a very vocal and informed advocate for your grandson and your daughter. Have you been involved in any advocacy on a larger scale? For example, to find funding for ABA in the school system?

From: Heifferon

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not just a part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching. And how do you teach a child in a group who doesnâ€™t think heâ€™s in a group? And what does the child do while you are teaching someone else he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that one-on-one.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of WihlborgSent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

From: Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school districtâ€™s program conveniently doesnâ€™t use. So, based on is baseless.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bijcomSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting... Does it make sense? Or not?> > > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> > > > > _____ > > > From: Vivian

<vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > What is "Complex Place"?> > > > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. . . com> com > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an

IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> Thank you so much>

May 29, 2009

, I got the price off the website for STAR. (it was an estimate) http://www.starautismprogram.com/ The website explains what the STAR program is, has videos and prices for all three levels. You should read what it is and how it is for each child. Its a prerequisite for academics, teaching them the basics before going to the big things.

To: sList Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 1:37:08 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

The school district has been known to use their federal grant money for classroom needs and I wouldnâ€™t be surprised they also use it for the STAR Programs. Where does the $600 figure come from. Iâ€™m glad to see that the STAR Program is working for your child but that still doesnâ€™t mean that the Program is working for the children. As you go up the Spectrum it requires more diligent attention to the problem and therefore more work. The program is so focused on what I call Occupational Therapies that they forget the academic demands which should require a greater shift in that direction. It is great that my grandson can dress and undress himself. Thank God for shorts and pullovers! But what about academics? Letâ€™s push him in that direction and worry about him dressing himself for next year.

Many autistic children have very serious social problems and he doesnâ€™t respond as part of a group. Progress can only be achieved one on one. But group awareness and participation is extremely important for all of us and hopefully he will overcome the problem. Letâ€™s keep in mind that autism has nothing to do with intelligence. He may have a problem with articulation but that has nothing to do with learning. He is neither blind nor deaf.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of WihlborgSent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 8:53 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

,

My son goes to school in Broward County and is on the STAR program. Have you visited there website to review the materials? The school board spends around $600 per child for this program. My son is excelling on the STAR program. He does group and individual lessons with his teachers and class. There are only 6 to 7 kids in his class and 2 teacher assistants. His school works with him in idenifying his peers and teachers. Any child, in my opinion, needs 1 on 1 a well as group time.

From: Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11:46 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not just a part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching. And how do you teach a child in a group who doesnâ€™t think heâ€™s in a group? And what does the child do while you are teaching someone else he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that one-on-one.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of WihlborgSent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

From: Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school districtâ€™s program conveniently doesnâ€™t use. So, based on is baseless.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bijcomSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting. Does it make sense? Or not?> > > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> > > > > _____ > > > From: Vivian

<vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > What is "Complex Place"?> > > > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. . . com> com > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an

IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> Thank you so much>

May 29, 2009

Self-help skills and academic skills should both be pursued

simultaneously! As these kids get older, bigger, stronger, and faster

than their parents, therapists, and caregivers is not the time to have

to wriggle frustrated restless bodies into clothes and shoes and try to

get them to perform these tasks themselves when they're just more and

more accustomed to someone doing it for them.

Heifferon wrote:

>

> The school district has been known to use their federal grant money

> for classroom needs and I wouldn’t be surprised they also use it for

> the STAR Programs. Where does the $600 figure come from. I’m glad to

> see that the STAR Program is working for your child but that still

> doesn’t mean that the Program is working for the children. As you go

> up the Spectrum it requires more diligent attention to the problem and

> therefore more work. The program is so focused on what I call

> Occupational Therapies that they forget the academic demands which

> should require a greater shift in that direction. It is great that my

> grandson can dress and undress himself. Thank God for shorts and

> pullovers! But what about academics? Let’s push him in that direction

> and worry about him dressing himself for next year.

>

> Many autistic children have very serious social problems and he

> doesn’t respond as part of a group. Progress can only be achieved one

> on one. But group awareness and participation is extremely important

> for all of us and hopefully he will overcome the problem. Let’s keep

> in mind that autism has nothing to do with intelligence. He may have a

> problem with articulation but that has nothing to do with learning. He

> is neither blind nor deaf.

>

> *From:* sList

> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg

> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 8:53 AM

> *To:* sList

> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> ,

>

> My son goes to school in Broward County and is on the STAR program.

> Have you visited there website to review the materials? The school

> board spends around $600 per child for this program. My son is

> excelling on the STAR program. He does group and individual lessons

> with his teachers and class. There are only 6 to 7 kids in his class

> and 2 teacher assistants. His school works with him in idenifying his

> peers and teachers. Any child, in my opinion, needs 1 on 1 a well as

> group time.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> *From:* Heifferon

> *To:* sList

> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11:46 PM

> *Subject:* RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not just a

> part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching.

> And how do you teach a child in a group who doesn’t think he’s in a

> group? And what does the child do while you are teaching someone else

> he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive

> and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that

> one-on-one.

>

> *From:* sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList

> @yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg

> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AM

> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com

> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group

> setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school

> and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ?

> I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> *From:* Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>

> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com

> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PM

> *Subject:* RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group

> concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some

> empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component

> which the school district’s program conveniently doesn’t use. So,

> based on is baseless.

>

> *From:* sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList

> @yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf Of *bijcom

> *Sent:* Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM

> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com

> *Subject:* Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> , I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's

> because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher

> time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology.

> It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles

> in a group setting. Does it make sense? Or not?

>

> >

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

> > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

> >

> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have

> greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some

> students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism

> spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal

> and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and

> visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> > What is " Complex Place " ?

> >

> > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose?

> to=bijcom@ ...

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...>>

> >

> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

> >

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo.

> com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. . com

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >>

> com

> >

> > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

> Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that

> the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs

> and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to

> move.

> > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> according to another post...

> > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > Thank you so much

> >

>

May 29, 2009

If a child with autism has social issues, some would have them progress

along a continuum of supports that are gradually faded out--for

instance, go from one-on-one to a small group with the child supported

by an interventionist, then supported by a shadow, then perhaps teaching

the child to self-manage. There are many variables to consider, and I

don't think the discussion is furthered when we try to arrive at absolutes.

Heifferon wrote:

>

> And what about the autistic child who has social issues and therefore

> needs the one-on-one. In this case the group serves no purpose and

> will waist time when others in the group or the group itself are being

> addressed. If the child can act as part of the group I would hope he

> is in a regular class.

>

> *From:* sList

> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of *shirlygilad

> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:03 AM

> *To:* sList

> *Subject:* Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> You can certainly use ABA principals in a group setting. Groups

> respond to reinforcements as do individuals. A token system is one

> example of a group ABA approach where there are rules for the group in

> general but you can individualize it to the needs of a specific child.

> In short, , as a BCBA I can tell you that we do not reject the

> group concept. We just don't forget that there are individuals within

> the group.....

>

> Shirly Gilad

>

> > >

> > > From: M Veliz <Veliz@>

> > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > > To: sList

> <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

> > >

> > > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have

> greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some

> students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism

> spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal

> and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and

> visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

> > >

> > > _____

> > >

> > > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> > > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > >

> > > What is " Complex Place " ?

> > >

> > > From: bijcom

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@>>

> > >

> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

> > >

> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups.

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >>

> com

> > >

> > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > >

> > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a

> Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is

> that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other

> programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know

> we want to move.

> > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> according to another post...

> > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > > Thank you so much

> > >

> >

>

May 29, 2009

When I mentioned training teachers, I was speaking specifically of

training teachers in applied behavior analysis. One often-cited book to

this end is Alberto & Troutman's /Applied Behavior Analysis for

Teachers/--by now, probably in its 9th or 10th edition (I'd have to

check to be sure, though).

Why do you consider apraxia among the " common mishaps associated with

autism " in which teachers are trained? I suspect the American Speech

Language Hearing Association would take exception to this stance...

Other ABA-based interventions besides discrete trial training ARE most

certainly credible approaches! You want the research? Go to the Journal

of Applied Behavior Analysis, which is available free on-line, from 1968

through Fall, 2008. I assure you, many examples are available of

research done by credible members of the ABA community that take

intervention beyond DT.

Heifferon wrote:

>

> Using ABA principles and using ABA-DT are not the same. You are taking

> a scientific approach and watering it down and assuming that approach

> is scientifically verifiable. Show me the data and research to verify

> your assertion. I agree you need a savvy, well trained teacher but

> trained in what? How many have training in apraxia and other common

> mishaps associated with autism? I feel it is more important to start

> with the discrete trial first and then to generalize. Isn't the school

> an example of the natural environment? My greater concern is not where

> but when and how often.

>

> When the errorless teaching occurs in the classroom it is done in

> segments of 15 minutes. You can ask any behaviorist and he will tell

> you that brief 15 minute segments are not appropriate and is an

> inadequate approach to using ABA instruction. They only get about 15

> minutes per day? You should all go and hide! The problem might be you

> don’t have the appropriate staff.

>

> I agree you don't need a board certified person to conduct the

> exercises but you need a certified person to supervise the program and

> determine the direction it takes. But the school district doesn't even

> " copy " the appropriate program. And to insist that copying the

> principals is sufficient is equivalent take medication at a lower

> dosage then what is required whose affects are inadequate and not

> appropriate. Maybe if you had board certified on staff you would have

> a better staff and might even need fewer " educational staff " It is not

> a question of sending this dilemma to a higher source because that

> source is the school district who won't do anything. I don't agree

> that this type of discussion will get us nowhere on slist. Where

> else can one go?

>

> It’s a shame that a child's the IEP's is centered around STAR and not

> the other way around.

>

> And to the parents who praise the STAR Program I would ask them that

> just perhaps, if it was done the right way, their child might be doing

> a lot better. Never settle for mediocrity.

>

> Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > >

> > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

> > Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that

> > the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs

> > and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to

> > move.

> > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> > according to another post...

> > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> > never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > > Thank you so much

> > >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

May 29, 2009

I love happy!

From: Wihlborg

Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 2:38 PM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Tina, I think what you said was perfect. We will just have to see. Next week I will be attending my son's kindergarden graduation....and I am so proud of him. He is happy.

From: Tina Terri Austin <austintandtbellsouth (DOT) net>To: sList Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 5:41:58 AMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Thanks! I was nervous about my comments regarding feeling as if we need to make a choice at times between fighting for our kids' education and their happiness. I did not want that to be misconstrued or misunderstood to mean that ultimately that is where we are at as parents. In some cases, it may be, in some it is not and we all go through phases as our kids grow. Like I said, my son is in kindergarten and functioning rather well at this time both academically and that he is happy. But, I cannot predict how he may be functioning in the future. We will just have to see.

From: Wihlborg

Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:00 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Tina, I think what you said was good.

From: Tina Terri Austin <austintandt@ bellsouth. net>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:21:17 AMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

STAR is a curriculum, not a method of teaching. They, too, utilize the "principals of ABA." They use discrete trials in most cases to teach concepts. I assume (and hope) that at some point it fades out to teaching the concepts in the natural environment to promote generalization.

STAR has 3 levels of their curriculum and can be tailored to each individual child. Some of the curriculum actually continues moving forward to teach other skills outside of the ABLLS.

Your question, "how do you teach a child in a group who doesn't think he's in a group?" What does that mean? The child doesn't need to think or even know he is in a group to learn. In fact, based on the principals of ABA, he could be a rat as he would just respond to reinforcement of certain behaviors. Nobody has to "know" or "think" or "understand" .

I know you are concerned about your grandson and the services he receives, or does not receive, in his school. I don't know where he attends school so I cannot attest to what occurs in that particular school's autism program. However, I also recognize that parents come to a time (as did I) where we feel we have to make a decision. Do we push for our kid to be educated or do we settle (or feel like we are settling) for them being happy? I am not by any means saying this is what "should" be happening but my guess is it does with many parents. There are times I am not fully satisfied with something at my son's school but ultimately he is learning and he is happy. Sometimes, I believe he could be learning more with a one-to-one teacher/behavior specialist but is that practical and is that their job or is there some part I am accountable for? When "typical" kids are falling behind in reading, their parents get tutors, not press the schools to do more with their child. Just a thought. I guess for us, we decided that if he stays with us forever, he stays with us forever and we will plan for that; if that is what he wants and can do. This does not mean in any way that we are giving up on him or his education or in teaching him what we think he needs to know to survive and continue to be happy in his life. His happiness is far more important to us than if he can regurgitate some academic information. We want him to be safe, learn more of the hidden curriculum and have a friend or 2. Whatever he can do and what he wants for himself. I also know this is easy for me to say at this time because he is doing really well and is only in kindergarten. When he reaches high school, this may be a totally different conversation. These viewpoints also change on a regular basis. This is today, this morning, early thoughts when everything is good.

In an ideal world, all ESE teachers would also hold certifications in behavior analysis. All administrators would ensure our kids receive every curriculum they need based on them as individuals (Edmark, Touchmath, ABLLS, VB-MAPP, etc.). All administrators would support our ESE programs in their schools and welcome us and our kids to their schools and make every effort to accommodate and include our kids in the most positive atmosphere. The entire multi-disciplinary team would be at our kids' disposals for every need and the consultations would happen on a regular basis. Funding for programs would be available. Funding BCBA's/BCaBA' s would be available. I could go on...

Ok, that is my morning rant. , I know you are frustrated with this system. You appear to be a very vocal and informed advocate for your grandson and your daughter. Have you been involved in any advocacy on a larger scale? For example, to find funding for ABA in the school system?

From: Heifferon

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not just a part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching. And how do you teach a child in a group who doesnâ€™t think heâ€™s in a group? And what does the child do while you are teaching someone else he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that one-on-one.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of WihlborgSent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

From: Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school districtâ€™s program conveniently doesnâ€™t use. So, based on is baseless.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bijcomSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting... Does it make sense? Or not?> > > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> > > > > _____ > > > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > What is "Complex Place"?> > > > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. . . com> com > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> Thank you so much>

May 29, 2009

This may sound harsh but I am short on time and just need to send the

message.

If you have the time, register to volunteer at your child or grandchild's

school to facilitate the social piece you may be speaking of. Go to lunch

and do a lunch bunch or recess and facilitate the social skills the child

needs.

We, as parents, are welcome to do this as we can volunteer at our child's

school. It is important to build a rapport with the school, teachers, etc.

first. So, we don't step on anyone's toes and that everyone knows the

goals, which is ultimately for the child's overall wellbeing, right?

--------------------------------------------------

Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 4:20 PM

To: <sList >

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

> If a child with autism has social issues, some would have them progress

> along a continuum of supports that are gradually faded out--for

> instance, go from one-on-one to a small group with the child supported

> by an interventionist, then supported by a shadow, then perhaps teaching

> the child to self-manage. There are many variables to consider, and I

> don't think the discussion is furthered when we try to arrive at

> absolutes.

>

> Heifferon wrote:

>>

>> And what about the autistic child who has social issues and therefore

>> needs the one-on-one. In this case the group serves no purpose and

>> will waist time when others in the group or the group itself are being

>> addressed. If the child can act as part of the group I would hope he

>> is in a regular class.

>>

>> *From:* sList

>> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of *shirlygilad

>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:03 AM

>> *To:* sList

>> *Subject:* Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>>

>> You can certainly use ABA principals in a group setting. Groups

>> respond to reinforcements as do individuals. A token system is one

>> example of a group ABA approach where there are rules for the group in

>> general but you can individualize it to the needs of a specific child.

>> In short, , as a BCBA I can tell you that we do not reject the

>> group concept. We just don't forget that there are individuals within

>> the group.....

>>

>> Shirly Gilad

>>

>> > >

>> > > From: M Veliz <Veliz@>

>> > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>> > > To: sList

>> <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

>> > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

>> > >

>> > > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have

>> greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some

>> students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism

>> spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal

>> and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and

>> visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

>> > >

>> > > _____

>> > >

>> > > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

>> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

>> > > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

>> > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>> > >

>> > > What is " Complex Place " ?

>> > >

>> > > From: bijcom

>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@

>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@>>

>> > >

>> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

>> > >

>> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups.

>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList

>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >>

>> com

>> > >

>> > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>> > >

>> > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a

>> Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is

>> that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other

>> programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know

>> we want to move.

>> > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

>> according to another post...

>> > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

>> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

>> > > Thank you so much

>> > >

>> >

>>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

May 29, 2009

Letâ€™s keep in mind that autism has nothing to do

with intelligence. He may have a problem with articulation but that has nothing

to do with learning. He is neither blind nor deaf. Too bad many instructors don't get this. It is key! FranSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex PlaceTo: sList Date: Friday, May 29, 2009, 1:37 PM