Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 Just don't be afraid to speak up, or laugh louder, whichever suits you. You should be able to find some meetings where they sign the slip before the meeting and let you go on. Most youthful steppers (like those chairing meetings that they can't find anyone else to chair) aren't exactly buddy buddy with the law and they also seem to be susceptible to subtle mind tricks, so you should be able to swing it. Good luck. Afraid Anonamous > Hello All, > > Maybe some of you deep thunkers can offer some input into my situation ...... > please ... > > Due to some negative interaction with the legal system I am in a probationary > situation in which I am forced to attend the AA brain sudzing menagerie. > Being a somewhat inteligent(sometimes foolish), wilfull person of fairly > well balenced reasoning, I have never believed this silly dogma and am > constantly aflicted with bouts of hilarity and giggling during these > meetings. Any suggestions? > > Any legal input on how I might further resolve this nonsense would also be > greatly appreciated. > > thanks > > steve > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 Hi Steve: Check out http://www.rational.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi Consider registering and describe your situation to The Forced Speak Out. You will find some good direction there. Dave Trippel Afraid Anonamous Hello All, Maybe some of you deep thunkers can offer some input into my situation ..... please ... Due to some negative interaction with the legal system I am in a probationary situation in which I am forced to attend the AA brain sudzing menagerie. Being a somewhat inteligent(sometimes foolish), wilfull person of fairly well balenced reasoning, I have never believed this silly dogma and am constantly aflicted with bouts of hilarity and giggling during these meetings. Any suggestions? Any legal input on how I might further resolve this nonsense would also be greatly appreciated. thanks steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 You're in luck, there are many here who have fought the legal system pushing them into AA. Others here know a lot more about this than I do, but on a quick surf over to peele.net I find this: <http://www.peele.net/legal/index.html> I don't neccesarily endorse Peele's $50 package, I don't know anything other than what it says on the webpage. You should probably wait a day or two for a few more responses before deciding what to do. If I were looking for legal help I don't know if I'd find this sort of thing comforting to know that there are others working on the problem, or if I would become totally enraged to find that the government was forcing me to attend what many judges have ruled to be a religious organization. At 01:27 AM 12/9/00 EST, sparkydawg69@... wrote: >Hello All, > >Maybe some of you deep thunkers can offer some input into my situation ..... >please ... > >Due to some negative interaction with the legal system I am in a probationary >situation in which I am forced to attend the AA brain sudzing menagerie. > a somewhat inteligent(sometimes foolish), wilfull person of fairly >well balenced reasoning, I have never believed this silly dogma and am >constantly aflicted with bouts of hilarity and giggling during these >meetings. Any suggestions? > >Any legal input on how I might further resolve this nonsense would also be >greatly appreciated. > >thanks > >steve > eGroups Sponsor ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 check out this book. you can find it at the big book store chains or on amazon.com. rational recovery's web page may have some infor as well. Resisting 12-Step Coercion : How to Fight Forced Participation in 12-Step Treatment http://www.peele.net/bookstore/resisting.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 > check out this book. you can find it at the big book store chains or > on amazon.com. rational recovery's web page may have some > infor as well. > > > Resisting 12-Step Coercion : How to Fight Forced Participation > in 12-Step Treatment > > http://www.peele.net/bookstore/resisting.html Dave, I just ordered that book. Merry Christmas to me! judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2000 Report Share Posted December 8, 2000 i have it, but i havent read it yet, since im not being coerced. i figure it would be good reference material on the subject. everytime i goin borders books and go ito the recovery section, i take all of peeles and kens books and turn them face forward so they are what people see first when the browse thru there. just my little way of fighting the power. > > check out this book. you can find it at the big book store chains or > > on amazon.com. rational recovery's web page may have some > > infor as well. > > > > > > Resisting 12-Step Coercion : How to Fight Forced Participation > > in 12-Step Treatment > > > > http://www.peele.net/bookstore/resisting.html > > Dave, I just ordered that book. Merry Christmas to me! > > judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2000 Report Share Posted December 9, 2000 Steve, If you feel best dealing with them by laughing, OK, but the reality is that AAs *expect* you to behave exactly like you are doing... and in a way it feeds their corporate ego. They will doubtless be eagerly anticipating your downfall. An alternative is to behave with the greatest " dignity " :-). Use the time to take a look around, observe the stupidity and crassness - and if you don't want to be sent back take (any) appropriate action... Good Luck! Mack > Hello All, > > Maybe some of you deep thunkers can offer some input into my situation ..... > please ... > > Due to some negative interaction with the legal system I am in a probationary > situation in which I am forced to attend the AA brain sudzing menagerie. > Being a somewhat inteligent(sometimes foolish), wilfull person of fairly > well balenced reasoning, I have never believed this silly dogma and am > constantly aflicted with bouts of hilarity and giggling during these > meetings. Any suggestions? > > Any legal input on how I might further resolve this nonsense would also be > greatly appreciated. > > thanks > > steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2000 Report Share Posted December 9, 2000 Steve, Here is the legal page of the Recovery Liberation Front website. The site is owned by Fransway, a list member here. Be sure to check out 's new book, " 12-Step Horror Stories " : http://aahorror.net/FAQ.htm#lawsuit > Hello All, > > Maybe some of you deep thunkers can offer some input into my situation ..... > please ... > > Due to some negative interaction with the legal system I am in a probationary > situation in which I am forced to attend the AA brain sudzing menagerie. > Being a somewhat inteligent(sometimes foolish), wilfull person of fairly > well balenced reasoning, I have never believed this silly dogma and am > constantly aflicted with bouts of hilarity and giggling during these > meetings. Any suggestions? > > Any legal input on how I might further resolve this nonsense would also be > greatly appreciated. > > thanks > > steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2000 Report Share Posted December 9, 2000 Hi Steve -- If you live in Illinois, Wisconsin, California, Vermont, Connecticut, or New York (and maybe a few other states) then you reside in a legal destrict where it has ALREADY been ruled that government coercion to attend AA or any other 12-step fellowship or 12-step treatment, is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. The steppers can repeat till they're blue in the face all that rubbish about " spiritual, not religious " and " if your higher power is the ocean or a doorknob then it isn't religious " , but federal judges aren't fooled by this. 12-Step philosophy is " unequivocally religious " (Second Circuit) and therefore if a court, probation dep't, or state agency requires attendance, they are violating the Establishment Clause. If you live in a state not covered by previous rulings, then (if you want to) you can file suit in federal court (get yourself a good civil rights attorney with specialty/interest in First Amendment issues -- many will take the case with no money up front). You will almost certainly win -- there is ample precedent. And your efforts will expand the No-Coercion rulings to still more states. Hopefully one day it will be established in EVERY state, and forced AA will take its last dying breath. In order to go this route though, you need to be very clear in your own head on what the legal issue is, and be into it -- and put aside the rest of your objections to AA, valid though they may be. In other words, the fact that you find the atmosphere in meetings to be laughable, or the " powerlessness " ideology to be depressing, or whatever, is not relevant legally. What you want to ask yourself is, do you believe that some theistic or supernatural power outside yourself can/will prevent you from drinking/using, and that conversely that you yourself do not have and cannot gain the power to discontinue your use? If the answer is no, you do not have this RELIGIOUS belief about your actions being controlled by a theistic/supernatural power, then what is happening is that you are being ordered by the government to repeatedly attend meetings whose purpose is to convert you into such a religious belief system. And there is your Constitutional objection. Following is from plaintiff's complaint in Kerr v. Lind and Farrey (http://www.unhooked.com/sep/7circopn.htm) : << Kerr asserted in an affidavit that he objected as soon as he was told by Alan Webb, the prison social worker assigned to his case, that he would be required to attend the NA meetings. His affidavit claimed that Webb told him that he " didn't have a choice in the matter; that attendance was mandatory; that if [he] didn't go, [he] would most likely be shipped off to a medium (i.e. higher security) prison, and denied the hope of parole. " When Kerr first attended the NA meeting, he objected to dragging God's name into " this messy business of addictions, " and he expressed his disagreement with the view of God that was propounded at the meeting. Kerr regarded NA's deterministic view of God to be in conflict with his own belief about free will; more generally, he found it offensive to his personal religious beliefs. >> Many of the precedent-setting lawsuits against forced AA have been filed by prison inmates. All have been won. Fact is, even in the very restrictive and allowably coercive environment of prison, American citizens cannot be forced by the gov't to attend or particpate in 12-step programs, nor be punished for declining to do so. So no, you DON'T have to go to AA -- at the very least, you must be offered the non-religious alternatives of SMART or Lifering/SOS. Good luck! ~Rita (federal lawsuit filed Feb. 1998) > > Due to some negative interaction with the legal system I am in a probationary > situation in which I am forced to attend the AA brain sudzing menagerie. > Being a somewhat inteligent(sometimes foolish), wilfull person of fairly > well balenced reasoning, I have never believed this silly dogma and am > constantly aflicted with bouts of hilarity and giggling during these > meetings. Any suggestions? > > Any legal input on how I might further resolve this nonsense would also be > greatly appreciated. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2000 Report Share Posted December 9, 2000 Steve- Having chaired many meetings of AA I've signed my share of slips. It was always my opinion that people being court-ordered shouldn't be allowed in meetings because they didn't have the desire top stop drinking that the AA Traditions discuss and if AA is going to be a stickler to detail in other areas regarding the Traditions, why not here? In recent years there has been fine print added to that tradition reading "unless they're court ordered." Besides that, it would have been doing them a favor because the worst place in the world to be is an AA meeting when you don't want to be there. If I'd thought it would serve any purpose other than to cause them more problems than they already had I would have refused to sign my name. It's a rotten system. There is no dignity in walking up to the chairperson after a meeting and asking him/her to sign your slip as if you're in high school with a hall pass. Be that as it may unless you find a legal solution, there's nothing you can do about it but keep your head up. The system isn't going to change in time to solve your problem. All you accomplish by sitting in a corner snickering is to solidify the beliefs AA members already hold about people who don't agree with them. If you want to maintain your dignity stop playing so perfectly the role AA has written for you. They all know you wouldn't be there if you'd been stone sober and that plays right into their hand. The fact that your negative interaction with the legal system mandated you to AA gives them all the power, and I'll guarantee you they all have a good laugh over your bouts of hilarity and giggling when they go out for coffee after the meeting. So stop giving them the incredible amount of ammunition your childish attitude offers. You may be forced into a position to look like a fool but you don't have to act like one. Maybe that's not what you're looking for but all the arguments in the world against the 12-step/treatment "cluster foxtrot" won't change the fact that you need to find a way to get through these meetings and keep your self-respect. Nate Afraid Anonamous Hello All, Maybe some of you deep thunkers can offer some input into my situation ..... please ... Due to some negative interaction with the legal system I am in a probationary situation in which I am forced to attend the AA brain sudzing menagerie. Being a somewhat inteligent(sometimes foolish), wilfull person of fairly well balenced reasoning, I have never believed this silly dogma and am constantly aflicted with bouts of hilarity and giggling during these meetings. Any suggestions? Any legal input on how I might further resolve this nonsense would also be greatly appreciated. thanks steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2000 Report Share Posted December 9, 2000 Steve, This might make things easier for you. This is the Court Opinions page of my site. If you're not in the military, just disregard the first one on the list ( v. Laird). These are the appellate court decisions to date ruling mandatory AA unconstitutional. http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/court.html > > Hi Steve -- > > If you live in Illinois, Wisconsin, California, Vermont, > Connecticut, or New York (and maybe a few other states) then you reside > in a legal destrict where it has ALREADY been ruled that government > coercion to attend AA or any other 12-step fellowship or 12-step > treatment, is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2000 Report Share Posted December 9, 2000 What you want to ask yourself is, do > you believe Rita, I'm curious to know why a person's belief's would matter here. It seems to me that the heart of the Religion Clauses is that a person's beliefs should have no bearing on hir civil liberties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2000 Report Share Posted December 10, 2000 Hey Rita As I understand it, the argument that AA is religious has always been upheld (and hence coerced attendance is a violatin of the Free Exercise clause irrespective of the Establishment Clause) however, on one occasion the complaint was not granted on the grounds that the State has an " overiding interest " which allows it to ignore a First Amendment Principle in a prison context? P. > > > > > Due to some negative interaction with the legal system I am in a > probationary > > situation in which I am forced to attend the AA brain sudzing > menagerie. > > Being a somewhat inteligent(sometimes foolish), wilfull person of > fairly > > well balenced reasoning, I have never believed this silly dogma and am > > constantly aflicted with bouts of hilarity and giggling during these > > meetings. Any suggestions? > > > > Any legal input on how I might further resolve this nonsense would > also be > > greatly appreciated. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2000 Report Share Posted December 11, 2000 When I had to go to AA meetings for probation, I did a couple of things. I took a Rational Recovery book or "When AA Doesn't Work: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol" to read. I also found a couple of very large AA meetings at which they signed court slips at the end of the meeting. I just walked in right at the end had my slip signed. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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