Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 I think that there is always a way to make someone a scapegoat. AA is a convenient mechanism to accomplish scapegoating. It identifies scapegoats and makes them proud of the scapegoat disguise. You know what can make someone into a scapegoat? Looking like someone who is a bad person. That's easy to accomplish, in my experience. You can look like a man or a woman, you can look like a black person or a white person. You can sound like a rapist. You can have the same name or hair color of food as a former victimizer, you can wear glasses like the predator wore. In the case of AA, I think the evangelists see any kind of freedom of spirit as evidence of the need for a 12 step program. There are 2 quotes that I have gotten as a result of reading this list, that have come to mean a lot to me. They seem appropriate in response to your post. judith Quote #1: From " For Your Own Good " by Alice . Morality and performance of duty are artificial measures that become necessary when something essential is lacking. The more successfully a person was denied access to his or her feelings in childhood, the larger the arsenal of intellectual weapons and the supply of moral prostheses has to be, because morality and a sense of duty are not sources of strength or fruitful soil for genuine affection. Blood does not flow in artificial limbs; they are for sale and can serve many masters. What was considered good yesterday can-depending on the decree of government or party-be considered evil and corrupt today, and vice versa. But those who have spontaneous feelings can only be themselves. Rejection, ostracism, loss of love, and name calling will not fail to affect them; they will suffer as a result and will dread them, but once they have found their authentic self they will not want to lose it. And when they sense that something is being demanded of them to which their whole being says no, they cannot do it. They simply cannot. Quote #2: Dr. Szasz, " The Untamed Tongue: A Dissenting Dictionary " " Because we are spiritual-social beings, the human desire for legitimacy may be even more basic than the desire for life itself. Sometimes, some persons want to die, but no one ever wants to be illegitimate. Illegitimacy, par excellence, is an ascription no one attributes to himself:...In short, legitimacy is to us what water is to fish: the milieu in which we, as spiritual beings, live--and hence notice only when we are deprived of it (by others). Revealingly, when we deprive others of legitimacy, we tend to blind ourselves to the subject's situation as he experiences it: We insist that his situation is caused by his condition, not by our definition... " > Hi all. > > I was thinking about making a list of hazards if you don't comply with mandated AA. > > We really don't have this problem yet in Denmark, but it might come in one way or another. I've seen it been sneaking in some cases in the social system, but it's not organized. Yet. > > I guess I should have read Stanton's book about resisting 12 step coercion, but I haven't. > > Anyway, what I've found until now is about like this. > > If you don't accept the terms for mandated AA, you can risk: > > 1. Losing custody of your child. > 2. You will not get your authorization back. > 3. You can not get your driver license back. > 4. You cannot get a parole. > 5. You'll be fired. > 6. .... > > Are there more? > > What kind of incidences could bring you in this situation? > > Bjørn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 More risks from non-acceptance of AA 6. Loss of professional license--lawyers, doctors, nurses, etc. 7. refusal of organ transplant despite many years of abstinence 8. loss of employment opportunities --drug and alcohol counselor, etc. The ers director lost his job, even though he is an AA member, for offering moderation management as a less preferred option. 9. loss of academic freedom-- Schaller dismissed from college teaching position because he did not advocate for AA 10. loss of research dollars. ers Foundation has withdrawn funding from academic institutions (Rutgers I think) that engaged in research on controlled drinking > If you don't accept the terms for mandated AA, you can risk: > > 1. Losing custody of your child. > 2. You will not get your authorization back. > 3. You can not get your driver license back. > 4. You cannot get a parole. > 5. You'll be fired. > 6. .... > > Are there more? > > What kind of incidences could bring you in this situation? > > Bjørn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 At 04:17 PM 12/23/00 -0000, stuart323@... wrote: >More risks from non-acceptance of AA > >6. Loss of professional license--lawyers, doctors, nurses, etc. >7. refusal of organ transplant despite many years of abstinence >8. loss of employment opportunities --drug and alcohol counselor, >etc. The ers director lost his job, even though he is an AA >member, for offering moderation management as a less preferred option. >9. loss of academic freedom-- Schaller dismissed from college >teaching position because he did not advocate for AA >10. loss of research dollars. ers Foundation has withdrawn >funding from academic institutions (Rutgers I think) that engaged in >research on controlled drinking As interesting and dead-on as these are, they haven't affected me much (I write that and then I think of insurance issues - I'm sure that alcoholism/AA membership is in my Medical Information Bureau records, and I was denied medical insurance at one time, most probably because I had less than five years in AA)... I was only 'mandated' to go to AA by a psychologist 13 years ago. So this varies from the actual topic of the thread of " what are the hazareds of mandated AA " , but it's something I need to write. The most harmful things to me personally were the harder-to-measure emotional hazards: * Loss of friendship/being lectured to/being shunned by AA members when I dared be heretical, think for myself, and not " toe the line " . In a way this was not so terrible because being treated that way, combined with what little self-esteem I had left (and suspecting all along that treating people this way was incompatible with love, which was so often talked about in the rooms), helped drive me out of AA. * inability to be heard by many people outside of AA when I tried to talk about my AA experience, because THEY had heard nothing but wonderful things about AA and how it helps alcoholics. * Something I can only call 'other subtle things'. I've always had emotional and social problems, being shy, and AA only made my life more complicated in this area. >> If you don't accept the terms for mandated AA, you can risk: >> >> 1. Losing custody of your child. >> 2. You will not get your authorization back. >> 3. You can not get your driver license back. >> 4. You cannot get a parole. >> 5. You'll be fired. >> 6. .... >> >> Are there more? >> >> What kind of incidences could bring you in this situation? >> >> Bjørn ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 > Hi all. > > I was thinking about making a list of hazards if you don't comply with mandated AA. > > We really don't have this problem yet in Denmark, but it might come in one way or another. I've seen it been sneaking in some cases in the social system, but it's not organized. Yet. > > I guess I should have read Stanton's book about resisting 12 step coercion, but I haven't. > > Anyway, what I've found until now is about like this. > > If you don't accept the terms for mandated AA, you can risk: > > 1. Losing custody of your child. > 2. You will not get your authorization back. > 3. You can not get your driver license back. > 4. You cannot get a parole. > 5. You'll be fired. > 6. .... > > Are there more? > > What kind of incidences could bring you in this situation? > ---------------- I don't understand the question? -- do you mean what kinds of situations could result in being mandated to AA, or what kinds of situations result in being labeled " non-compliant " by the persons doing the mandating, resulting in the harsh penalties you've described? I was ordered by me company's " Discipline Department " (yes, they actually have one of those!!) to enroll in the EAP or be terminated. The EAP, in turn, ordered me to sign an " agreement " to attend 5 AA meetings a week in addition to " treatment " 4 days a week, and to be " compliant " in every way. If I didn't sign the agreement I'd have been terminated. Later, when I expressed objection to the 12-step philosophy, I was given a " warning " by the counselors; when I finally got sick of the charade of attending AA and discontinued doing so, I was of course labeled " non-compliant " and put up for dismissal. By then I had retained my attorney, and I of course had the last laugh (to a certain extent -- I am still being harassed 3 years later). ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 Not to forget 's situation: 11. You may be denied medical care. --wally Re: List of Hazards. More risks from non-acceptance of AA 6. Loss of professional license--lawyers, doctors, nurses, etc. 7. refusal of organ transplant despite many years of abstinence 8. loss of employment opportunities --drug and alcohol counselor, etc. The ers director lost his job, even though he is an AA member, for offering moderation management as a less preferred option. 9. loss of academic freedom-- Schaller dismissed from college teaching position because he did not advocate for AA 10. loss of research dollars. ers Foundation has withdrawn funding from academic institutions (Rutgers I think) that engaged in research on controlled drinking > If you don't accept the terms for mandated AA, you can risk: > > 1. Losing custody of your child. > 2. You will not get your authorization back. > 3. You can not get your driver license back. > 4. You cannot get a parole. > 5. You'll be fired. > 6. .... > > Are there more? > > What kind of incidences could bring you in this situation? > > Bjørn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2000 Report Share Posted December 23, 2000 I think this ties in with Dave's contribution too. is being denied essential medical treatment. I believe he has the legal skills to advocate for a better situation for himself. But I can't help seeing the irony or paradox or whatever, in an organization that predicts death for those who don't follow its principles, having the power to withhold essential treatment--in effect, to impose a death sentence. judith ps: , wherever you are and whatever you're doing, my thoughts are with you this chilly midwestern night... > Not to forget 's situation: > > 11. You may be denied medical care. > > --wally > > Re: List of Hazards. > > > More risks from non-acceptance of AA > > 6. Loss of professional license--lawyers, doctors, nurses, etc. > 7. refusal of organ transplant despite many years of abstinence > 8. loss of employment opportunities --drug and alcohol counselor, > etc. The ers director lost his job, even though he is an AA > member, for offering moderation management as a less preferred option. > 9. loss of academic freedom-- Schaller dismissed from college > teaching position because he did not advocate for AA > 10. loss of research dollars. ers Foundation has withdrawn > funding from academic institutions (Rutgers I think) that engaged in > research on controlled drinking > > > If you don't accept the terms for mandated AA, you can risk: > > > > 1. Losing custody of your child. > > 2. You will not get your authorization back. > > 3. You can not get your driver license back. > > 4. You cannot get a parole. > > 5. You'll be fired. > > 6. .... > > > > Are there more? > > > > What kind of incidences could bring you in this situation? > > > > Bjørn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 Hi Rita. Thanks. I've lost my spelling device and my dictionary, so I'm a bit handicapped at the moment, language speaking. But I've mad a mistake with that word before, and I can't explain my idiosyncratic understanding of that word. Maybe it reminds of another word, well who knows? I'm trying to make this list of hazards because I'm involved with a Scandinavian list for professionals, and one of the persons expressed that the discussion of AA already was settled, and that it was a boring and useless question. But both Denmark, Norway and Sweden have been heavily influenced by mainstream attitudes from US, and therefore I thought I ought to explain, that this is an ignorant view of the situation. Anyway the thread is interesting, and I'll try to sum it up later. My question could be like this? As an ordinary American doing normal things, what could get you into mandated XA? Bjørn Re: List of Hazards. > Hi all. > > I was thinking about making a list of hazards if you don't comply with mandated AA. > > We really don't have this problem yet in Denmark, but it might come in one way or another. I've seen it been sneaking in some cases in the social system, but it's not organized. Yet. > > I guess I should have read Stanton's book about resisting 12 step coercion, but I haven't. > > Anyway, what I've found until now is about like this. > > If you don't accept the terms for mandated AA, you can risk: > > 1. Losing custody of your child. > 2. You will not get your authorization back. > 3. You can not get your driver license back. > 4. You cannot get a parole. > 5. You'll be fired. > 6. .... > > Are there more? > > What kind of incidences could bring you in this situation? > ---------------- I don't understand the question? -- do you mean what kinds of situations could result in being mandated to AA, or what kinds of situations result in being labeled " non-compliant " by the persons doing the mandating, resulting in the harsh penalties you've described? I was ordered by me company's " Discipline Department " (yes, they actually have one of those!!) to enroll in the EAP or be terminated. The EAP, in turn, ordered me to sign an " agreement " to attend 5 AA meetings a week in addition to " treatment " 4 days a week, and to be " compliant " in every way. If I didn't sign the agreement I'd have been terminated. Later, when I expressed objection to the 12-step philosophy, I was given a " warning " by the counselors; when I finally got sick of the charade of attending AA and discontinued doing so, I was of course labeled " non-compliant " and put up for dismissal. By then I had retained my attorney, and I of course had the last laugh (to a certain extent -- I am still being harassed 3 years later). ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 Thanks Judith. From your and Wally's posts I must conclude there are two sources for mandated AA. The first is social, and requires an environment where AA is regarded as the only hope. In other words, if there were enough alternatives, the pressure would lessen. Right? The second is through rules and laws, and comes from the way the official society is organized. I was primarily thinking of the second, but I can understand, that if the two sources merge there will be an enormous pressure in a vulnarable situation. Almost impossible to resist, as you risk both the expulsion from your social surroundings and the society at the same time. But anyway I think there is a fundamental difference between the two sources. The first is what I would consider the pressure of culture which could have consequenses for your mental health. The second not only threatens your mental health, but also your rights as a citizen. Therefore I think it's worse, and should not be confused with the first source. But of course there are individual differences. Maybe the first is worst for women, while the second is worst for men? The reason why I'm more concerned about the second source, is that it can lead to what I would call 'Fascism with a Human Face'. Like we've had 'Socialism with a Human Face' in Europe. It didn't by the way, work either. If you look at the concept of denial, in the first case it's a pressure from your surroundings, but in the last case the State is simply stating that your denial is a sign of disease, and therefore you are not able to decide what's best for yourselves. That's in my view plain and simple Fascism, and this is IMO a serious threat to democracy and individual freedom. Therefore I don't think the discussion of XA should be restricted to personal disaster within the treatment sector. AA thinking has changed the mainstream attitude here in Denmark in less than 15 years, and nobody seems to notice. But due to my studies back in 1977-78, I've been able to recognize the signs. I've seen their influence grow, but accommated to Danish culture. AA is capable of mutating into nearly every existing culture, and that's scary. Therefore I think a cross cultural discussion about AA is essential, and I'll try to bring your views into the Scandinavian agenda before it's to late. Before the " Bodysnatchers " are to numerous. This is what I would like to accomplish in the next year. Maybe I should create a list with this intention? Well, any comments would be appreciated. Bjørn P.S. I almost ever have a P.S. At the moment there is peace in our family. All preparations are made, and we'll have duck. It's never been frozen and we had to pay about $20 for it. The clock is 2.20 pm. Peace will soon overwhelm me, but not for long. Re: List of Hazards. I think that there is always a way to make someone a scapegoat. AA is a convenient mechanism to accomplish scapegoating. It identifies scapegoats and makes them proud of the scapegoat disguise. You know what can make someone into a scapegoat? Looking like someone who is a bad person. That's easy to accomplish, in my experience. You can look like a man or a woman, you can look like a black person or a white person. You can sound like a rapist. You can have the same name or hair color of food as a former victimizer, you can wear glasses like the predator wore. In the case of AA, I think the evangelists see any kind of freedom of spirit as evidence of the need for a 12 step program. There are 2 quotes that I have gotten as a result of reading this list, that have come to mean a lot to me. They seem appropriate in response to your post. judith Quote #1: From " For Your Own Good " by Alice . Morality and performance of duty are artificial measures that become necessary when something essential is lacking. The more successfully a person was denied access to his or her feelings in childhood, the larger the arsenal of intellectual weapons and the supply of moral prostheses has to be, because morality and a sense of duty are not sources of strength or fruitful soil for genuine affection. Blood does not flow in artificial limbs; they are for sale and can serve many masters. What was considered good yesterday can-depending on the decree of government or party-be considered evil and corrupt today, and vice versa. But those who have spontaneous feelings can only be themselves. Rejection, ostracism, loss of love, and name calling will not fail to affect them; they will suffer as a result and will dread them, but once they have found their authentic self they will not want to lose it. And when they sense that something is being demanded of them to which their whole being says no, they cannot do it. They simply cannot. Quote #2: Dr. Szasz, " The Untamed Tongue: A Dissenting Dictionary " " Because we are spiritual-social beings, the human desire for legitimacy may be even more basic than the desire for life itself. Sometimes, some persons want to die, but no one ever wants to be illegitimate. Illegitimacy, par excellence, is an ascription no one attributes to himself:...In short, legitimacy is to us what water is to fish: the milieu in which we, as spiritual beings, live--and hence notice only when we are deprived of it (by others). Revealingly, when we deprive others of legitimacy, we tend to blind ourselves to the subject's situation as he experiences it: We insist that his situation is caused by his condition, not by our definition... " > Hi all. > > I was thinking about making a list of hazards if you don't comply with mandated AA. > > We really don't have this problem yet in Denmark, but it might come in one way or another. I've seen it been sneaking in some cases in the social system, but it's not organized. Yet. > > I guess I should have read Stanton's book about resisting 12 step coercion, but I haven't. > > Anyway, what I've found until now is about like this. > > If you don't accept the terms for mandated AA, you can risk: > > 1. Losing custody of your child. > 2. You will not get your authorization back. > 3. You can not get your driver license back. > 4. You cannot get a parole. > 5. You'll be fired. > 6. .... > > Are there more? > > What kind of incidences could bring you in this situation? > > Bjørn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 i dont know what all this is but i want my name removed,,,,,,,,,,,tell me how to do that please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 Great quotes Judith, especially the one! P. > > Hi all. > > > > I was thinking about making a list of hazards if you don't comply > with mandated AA. > > > > We really don't have this problem yet in Denmark, but it might come > in one way or another. I've seen it been sneaking in some cases in the > social system, but it's not organized. Yet. > > > > I guess I should have read Stanton's book about resisting 12 step > coercion, but I haven't. > > > > Anyway, what I've found until now is about like this. > > > > If you don't accept the terms for mandated AA, you can risk: > > > > 1. Losing custody of your child. > > 2. You will not get your authorization back. > > 3. You can not get your driver license back. > > 4. You cannot get a parole. > > 5. You'll be fired. > > 6. .... > > > > Are there more? > > > > What kind of incidences could bring you in this situation? > > > > Bjørn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 I agree that one can split the AA-mandate into various sources. In the US, there have been at least 4 phases to the legitmizing of AA, and I believe that they necessarily occurred in a certain order. 1. Getting accepted by the existing religions as one which supplements them instead of competing. Early AA members were working hard at this before the Big Book was published. Among their allies in this effort was Sam Shoemaker, but there were many others. 2. Gaining acceptance and visibility with the public. This was accomplished by winning over allies in the media (e. g. Jack .) Also, of course, by the 'offical' procedure of member-to-newcomer proselytizing. 3. Becoming part of the medical establishment. Marty Mann's NCEA (originally) was formed for this purpose in the 1940's. In the 50's AA members began moving into the counselling profession, setting up treatment centers, lobbying the public and the AMA with 'alcoholism is a treatable disease' slogan. By the 70's the treatment movement had enough media clout to shout down ( " Saying that will kill alcoholics!! " ) competing approaches and research results that suggested that the whole abstinence-treatment movement was misguided. 4. Only then could the treatment movement begin to influence leislation (e. g., the Act) and worm it's way into the criminal justice system. --wally PS: Pleasant holidays to you, and to all my other 12sf friends as well! Soon I'll be on my way out of frigid New England (latitude isn't everything, you know!) for a week on the South Carolina beaches with my extended family; so this may be my last post for a while. Peace! ----- Original Message ----- Thanks Judith. From your and Wally's posts I must conclude there are two sources for mandated AA. The first is social, and requires an environment where AA is regarded as the only hope. In other words, if there were enough alternatives, the pressure would lessen. Right? The second is through rules and laws, and comes from the way the official society is organized. I was primarily thinking of the second, but I can understand, that if the two sources merge there will be an enormous pressure in a vulnarable situation. Almost impossible to resist, as you risk both the expulsion from your social surroundings and the society at the same time. But anyway I think there is a fundamental difference between the two sources. The first is what I would consider the pressure of culture which could have consequenses for your mental health. The second not only threatens your mental health, but also your rights as a citizen. Therefore I think it's worse, and should not be confused with the first source. But of course there are individual differences. Maybe the first is worst for women, while the second is worst for men? The reason why I'm more concerned about the second source, is that it can lead to what I would call 'Fascism with a Human Face'. Like we've had 'Socialism with a Human Face' in Europe. It didn't by the way, work either. If you look at the concept of denial, in the first case it's a pressure from your surroundings, but in the last case the State is simply stating that your denial is a sign of disease, and therefore you are not able to decide what's best for yourselves. That's in my view plain and simple Fascism, and this is IMO a serious threat to democracy and individual freedom. Therefore I don't think the discussion of XA should be restricted to personal disaster within the treatment sector. AA thinking has changed the mainstream attitude here in Denmark in less than 15 years, and nobody seems to notice. But due to my studies back in 1977-78, I've been able to recognize the signs. I've seen their influence grow, but accommated to Danish culture. AA is capable of mutating into nearly every existing culture, and that's scary. Therefore I think a cross cultural discussion about AA is essential, and I'll try to bring your views into the Scandinavian agenda before it's to late. Before the " Bodysnatchers " are to numerous. This is what I would like to accomplish in the next year. Maybe I should create a list with this intention? Well, any comments would be appreciated. Bjørn P.S. I almost ever have a P.S. At the moment there is peace in our family. All preparations are made, and we'll have duck. It's never been frozen and we had to pay about $20 for it. The clock is 2.20 pm. Peace will soon overwhelm me, but not for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 > > i dont know what all this is but i want my name removed,,,,,,,,,,,tell me > how to do that please You can find instructions at the following url: /group/12-step-free I did you a favor, now I have some questions. How can you not know what all this is? Are you powerless over your computer? did you just wake up today and find messages from 12 step free in your email inbox or what? You must be getting these messages as a direct consequence of having subscribed to the group. Did you read the description of 12 step free on the main page? Did you take any action whatsoever to find out what you were getting into before you subscribed? I don't mean to be unpleasant, especially on Christmas Eve, but you must understand that I had a negative and life-changing experience with AA. If you are in AA I highly recommend that you stick around and read what is written here, because I think you may be harmed as I was. I'd like you to learn about better ways to cope with life, and you can start doing that here. judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 At 09:20 PM 12/24/00 -0000, Judith Stillwater wrote: > >> >> i dont know what all this is but i want my name >removed,,,,,,,,,,,tell me >> how to do that please > >You can find instructions at the following url: > > /group/12-step-free I recall seeing a couple of 'please unsubscribe me' on other egroups lists, but not as many as here. I sometimes suspect that these are trolls, though I admit there are times I see a troll under every virtual rock. > >I did you a favor, now I have some questions. > >How can you not know what all this is? Are you powerless over your >computer? did you just wake up today and find messages from 12 step >free in your email inbox or what? You must be getting these messages >as a direct consequence of having subscribed to the group. Did you >read the description of 12 step free on the main page? Did you take >any action whatsoever to find out what you were getting into before >you subscribed? While Judith is boombarding you with questions, I'll toss out another: Does someone else have your internet password and did they subscribe this address to it (because that's the only way it could have been done without you having done it yourself)? If you have any association with a 12-step program, they may have actually done you a favor. :-) >I don't mean to be unpleasant, especially on Christmas Eve, but you >must understand that I had a negative and life-changing experience >with AA. If you are in AA I highly recommend that you stick around and >read what is written here, because I think you may be harmed as I was. >I'd like you to learn about better ways to cope with life, and you can >start doing that here. > >judith ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 we should jsut add that 12-steps of unsubscrbing to main page. i cant understand how people can make this mistake, i dont find myself accidentaly subscribed to friends of bill wilson lists. > > > > i dont know what all this is but i want my name > removed,,,,,,,,,,,tell me > > how to do that please > > You can find instructions at the following url: > > /group/12-step-free > > I did you a favor, now I have some questions. > > How can you not know what all this is? Are you powerless over your > computer? did you just wake up today and find messages from 12 step > free in your email inbox or what? You must be getting these messages > as a direct consequence of having subscribed to the group. Did you > read the description of 12 step free on the main page? Did you take > any action whatsoever to find out what you were getting into before > you subscribed? > > I don't mean to be unpleasant, especially on Christmas Eve, but you > must understand that I had a negative and life-changing experience > with AA. If you are in AA I highly recommend that you stick around and > read what is written here, because I think you may be harmed as I was. > I'd like you to learn about better ways to cope with life, and you can > start doing that here. > > judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2000 Report Share Posted December 24, 2000 actually they msut be seeing the 12-step free and in some knee jerk compulsion to join anything with 12-steps in it , they ignore the main introduction, kind of what they ignore its a relgious and athiest, agnostic, alcoholic and intellectual hating god control faith healing cult. they must be compehending 12-step free as " 12-steps to freedom " . perhaps we need to think of an easier digestable name for some of the slower folks in the roomz. something like " 12-step free zone " or for the super retarded, " Its A Fu@*ing Cult, You Stupid Brainwashed F@*k! " btw , merry christmas. i know im an athiests who belives christ was a myth, but i figure i can get in spirit by decorating my home with vegas neon lights and carnival side show billboards. if you squinted your eyes, you probably wouldnt be able to notice difference. ho ho ho dave > > > > > > i dont know what all this is but i want my name > > removed,,,,,,,,,,,tell me > > > how to do that please > > > > You can find instructions at the following url: > > > > /group/12-step-free > > > > I did you a favor, now I have some questions. > > > > How can you not know what all this is? Are you powerless over your > > computer? did you just wake up today and find messages from 12 step > > free in your email inbox or what? You must be getting these messages > > as a direct consequence of having subscribed to the group. Did you > > read the description of 12 step free on the main page? Did you take > > any action whatsoever to find out what you were getting into before > > you subscribed? > > > > I don't mean to be unpleasant, especially on Christmas Eve, but you > > must understand that I had a negative and life-changing experience > > with AA. If you are in AA I highly recommend that you stick around > and > > read what is written here, because I think you may be harmed as I > was. > > I'd like you to learn about better ways to cope with life, and you > can > > start doing that here. > > > > judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2000 Report Share Posted December 25, 2000 >>"Its A Fu@*ing Cult, You Stupid Brainwashed F@*k!"<< Hi All, I like it. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2000 Report Share Posted December 25, 2000 I agree with the distinction of 1) social/cultural pressure to go to AA if one has a problem, and 2) legal coercion, where a person can lose job, child custody, freedom, health care. However, I think there is a big overlap of culture and public policy. Events in one sphere necessarily affect events in the other sphere. So I feel that those of us to whom the 12 step free concept is important, have a lot of ways and means to have an impact on our culture and public policy. Our eventual success in stemming the tide of 12 step brainwashing begins here, with people like us sharing our experiences and defending ourselves against those who would bash us for being honest. Our growth and cultural acceptance are as inevitable as the growth and cultural acceptance of AA. judith > Thanks Judith. > > From your and Wally's posts I must conclude there are two sources for mandated AA. > > The first is social, and requires an environment where AA is regarded as the only hope. In other words, if there were enough alternatives, the pressure would lessen. Right? > > The second is through rules and laws, and comes from the way the official society is organized. > I was primarily thinking of the second, but I can understand, that if the two sources merge there will be an enormous pressure in a vulnarable situation. > Almost impossible to resist, as you risk both the expulsion from your social surroundings and the society at the same time. > > But anyway I think there is a fundamental difference between the two sources. > > The first is what I would consider the pressure of culture which could have consequenses for your mental health. > > The second not only threatens your mental health, but also your rights as a citizen. Therefore I think it's worse, and should not be confused with the first source. > > But of course there are individual differences. Maybe the first is worst for women, while the second is worst for men? > > The reason why I'm more concerned about the second source, is that it can lead to what I would call 'Fascism with a Human Face'. Like we've had 'Socialism with a Human Face' in Europe. It didn't by the way, work either. > > If you look at the concept of denial, in the first case it's a pressure from your surroundings, but in the last case the State is simply stating that your denial is a sign of disease, and therefore you are not able to decide what's best for yourselves. > > That's in my view plain and simple Fascism, and this is IMO a serious threat to democracy and individual freedom. Therefore I don't think the discussion of XA should be restricted to personal disaster within the treatment sector. > > AA thinking has changed the mainstream attitude here in Denmark in less than 15 years, and nobody seems to notice. But due to my studies back in 1977-78, I've been able to recognize the signs. I've seen their influence grow, but accommated to Danish culture. AA is capable of mutating into nearly every existing culture, and that's scary. > > Therefore I think a cross cultural discussion about AA is essential, and I'll try to bring your views into the Scandinavian agenda before it's to late. Before the " Bodysnatchers " are to numerous. > > This is what I would like to accomplish in the next year. > > Maybe I should create a list with this intention? > > Well, any comments would be appreciated. > > Bjørn > > > P.S. > > I almost ever have a P.S. > At the moment there is peace in our family. All preparations are made, and we'll have duck. It's never been frozen and we had to pay about $20 for it. > > The clock is 2.20 pm. > > Peace will soon overwhelm me, but not for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2000 Report Share Posted December 25, 2000 > In a message dated 12/25/00 3:15:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, > dmarcoot@y... writes: > > > > >> " Its A Fu@*ing Cult, You Stupid Brainwashed F@*k! " << > > > Hi All, > > I like it. > > Steve yup, me too! judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 >My question could be like this? As an ordinary American doing normal >things, what could get you into mandated XA? " Ordinary American doing normal things, " meaning that the person doesn't actually drink to excess? Well, there's DWI convictions. Many of the people who get a first-time DWI don't actually have any kind of drinking problem, but they usually get sentenced either directly to AA or to some " class " which teaches AA dogma. Employers can do this too. Different companies have very different cultures. My current company actually provides beer for us on a regular basis, but another company I worked for had one of those famous " zero tolerance " policies. If you were ever suspected of being under the influence, you were required to go for a blood test immediately. If you were legally drunk (had had 1-3 drinks, depending on your size), then you had to go to company-approved " treatment " or be fired. Just having a few beers with the team over a celebratory lunch could lead to this. That was in theory, of course. It never came up, so I don't know if they were actually that harsh in practice. Let's see . . . what else can lead to mandated AA? There are other kinds of criminal convictions, such as public intoxication, disorderly conduct, etc. I believe most areas would require more than one offense for those, though, so it's unlikely to come up for the ordinary American. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 > > >My question could be like this? As an ordinary American doing normal > >things, what could get you into mandated XA? > The Oakland Raiders field goal kicker was required to undergo counseling (probably 12-step) for conviction of possession of the date rape drug. In a growing number of states, low level drug crimes will result in " treatment. " Doctors,nurses, and lawyers can be forced to attend AA by their professional organizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 > > > > >My question could be like this? As an ordinary American doing > normal > > >things, what could get you into mandated XA? > > > > The Oakland Raiders field goal kicker was required to undergo > counseling (probably 12-step) for conviction of possession of the > date rape drug. Hmmmm, I'd like to know more about this. You're probably right, it's probably " sexual addiction " for which he's receiving counseling. judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 > > The Oakland Raiders field goal kicker was required to undergo > > counseling (probably 12-step) for conviction of possession of the > > date rape drug. The " date rape drug " is Rohypnol, a benzo used as a sleeping pill. I have been given it by someone, presumably illgally as it is precription only in the UK, solely to help me sleep. I didnt need it to sleep, I was just interested in trying it. Benzos are abusable of course, and mere possession isnt indicative that a person has it for raping anyone. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2000 Report Share Posted December 27, 2000 > > > > The Oakland Raiders field goal kicker was required to undergo > > > counseling (probably 12-step) for conviction of possession of the > > > date rape drug. > > The " date rape drug " is Rohypnol, a benzo used as a sleeping pill. I > have been given it by someone, presumably illgally as it is > precription only in the UK, solely to help me sleep. I didnt need it > to sleep, I was just interested in trying it. Benzos are abusable of > course, and mere possession isnt indicative that a person has it for > raping anyone. Point taken. Actually I knew the name of the drug and even its street name, from tv. That's why I'm interested in hearing more about what the guy is being treated for, drug or sex addiction. judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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