Re: lack of humor

[Guest guest]

Don't you mean he listened so he could live vicariously for a few minutes through the person who is not yet wholly brainwashed? Thats what I got from what you were saying about the old timer. Someone who has not completely flagellated his ego... yet. Thanks for your insights. I am new to this list, too.

Its ironic the old timer who helps others stop a destructive habit has picked up another bad habit. Some people can do no good! I am not one of those people.

lack of humor

Because, my friends, the thumper needs that light. It is how he obtains vestiges of the "old self" he has left behind, the part of his own soul to which he has since died. By "helping" the newcomer, he can glean little bits of unvarnished humor that does not reference the steps, he can listen to speech that has not yet been fully bent to the ways of the cliche and the flagellation of the ego. (Thumper, what did you think of that last phrase? Pretty flighty, wouldn't you say? Look, here's my e-mail address. Maybe you can reach me.) Ah, you all think I am mad but I am not mad. Observe how calmly, how carefully, I tell this story. A caveat: the thumper is not wholly vampiric. In stealing over the newcomer and withstanding the brilliance to which he has died, which almost sends him scurrying back into his casket, he does nonetheless offer genuine aid: He helps someone stop a destructive habit. And the genuineness blinds him to the perversity of the same activity on another level.

[Guest guest]

At 05:17 AM 11/18/00 -0500, ameacham@... wrote:

> Well, my thought for tonight came as I was watching a hardcore

> " oldtimer " as he was watching a speaker. The speaker was rather

>animated. He had just over a year sober and had been a musician and a s

>salesman, so he was kind of flamboyant and funny. Irreverent about his

>own pain. He even got up once and imitated himself walking into his

>first AA meeting, slumped over. The speaker was trying very hard to fit

>into " what was suggested, "

Yes, he might have started with something like " ...so I'll tell what it

was like, what happened, and what it's like now. " But as my hardcore sponsor

mentioned to me after someone said that, " No, we tell what We were like,

what happened, and what WE are like now. " To be a part of [as opposed to

" apart from " ], you have to repeat snippets of the readings just as they

are stated.

>but -- my theory -- he still had a creative flame he didn't know one is

>supposed to keep very low or to snuff out.

> I was watching the oldtimer watching the speaker as the rest of the

crowd chuckled with the speaker or laughed appreciatively at his jokes. It

occurred to me -- and whether it's strictly true about the oldtimer is for

now irrelevant; I'm more interested in the insight itself -- it occurred to

me that the oldtimer (or " thumper, " as I am wont to call oldtimers) could

not laugh because his goodness, nay, the very quality of his hi-octane

sobriety, was offended by the creativity coming off of this relative

newcomer.

> The idea goes with my previous bias or thought or belief that

fundamentalism of any kind is always hostile to art because art is

liberating. (It feels liberating to say that, because I know that

somewhere, in some far-flung corner of the earth, by the very act of my

writing those words, a thumper is exploding.) And his goodness was

offended by the creative light coming off of the speaker, which the speaker

had not yet learned to quench, to drown out -- yet he remained glued in his

chair unsmiling. Why?

> I pause, cup my ear to the universe, and listen for the echo of a

Rumplestiltskin thumper about to stomp himself in two with

anti-intellectual rage, with a jeer: " That's bullshit! "

This is all very interesting - however, I'd give the oldtimer just a

little more credit in interpreting the program and judging the " one-year-

wonder " .

If you've heard " one-year-wonder " , or " 90-day-wonder " , you know what

kind of person it is, someone just like the speaker described above, who

has totally bought into the AA program but hasn't yet lost that spark of

life in their eyes - thus it is a " Miracle " that they are sober.

My interpretation of the oldtimer is that yes, he IS judging the

speaker harshly. Just as the speaker was mocking himself first walking

into AA, the old-timer was thinking " yes, when I was new to the program,

still wet behind the ears, having only one year in the program, I was an

arrogant prick just like that. I'm so grateful I grew out of that. "

He will certainly think the speaker was completely full of shit, but

after the meeting he may say " Thank you for sharing " [a statement usually

meant to end a conversation - this may deserve more discussion], " You're

exactly where you're supposed to be " [a statement, like many in AA, that's

vague enough to be interpreted several ways]. If he wanted to stick a few

screws to the speaker, he might say " You've reminded me of what it was like

when I was much newer in the program. This is why I keep coming back to

meetings. I have to keep my memory green. "

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

holly

i think there is some kind of relationship there. i

used to love being silly, and i also liked to make up

limmericks and stories, and draw pictures. going to a

lot of meetings, though and getting sucked into the

cult lifestyle put all of that on the back burner. i

wasn't strong enough. i haven't even had a

relationship in 3 years. since my breakup i have lost

most of any outwardly apparent sexuality i had. yes i

became a program-bitch-nightmare. if you know what i

mean. even on this list as i type i am wondering if i

am being too self centered by talking so much about

myself.

--- holly.winchell@... wrote:

> <Besides saying a belated hello to all on the list,

> does anyone else

> think there is a relationship between lack of humor,

> hatred of the

> artistic, and 12-step fundamentalism?>

>

> Hello, .

>

> Yes, in general, I have observed the same lack of

> humor/hatred of the

> artistic in 12-step fundamentalists. However, I am

> currently going

> through a workbook called " The Artist's Way " by

> Cameron, who is

> obviously a recovering alcoholic, but she has not

> lost any of her

> humor/creativity, in my opinion. I think that book

> has been helpful

> in maintaining sanity, creativity, and a sense of

> self despite 12-

> step group attendance.

>

> Holly

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

what i witness was humor and creativity in A turned towards self

hatred and mockery and 12-step worship. it seemd like people,

(myself included at the time), woud bend over backwards to find

new mascohisitic ways of describing themselves as diseased, i

ahda sponsor who invented a new calender which counted days

sober starting from bill wilson's day 1(didnt we already do that

with one " savior " already? hmmm) .

what i did witness was a hatred and utter contempt towards

those who didnt need AA to stay sober or who could drink

moderatly.

> <Besides saying a belated hello to all on the list, does anyone

else

> think there is a relationship between lack of humor, hatred of

the

> artistic, and 12-step fundamentalism?>

>

> Hello, .

>

> Yes, in general, I have observed the same lack of

humor/hatred of the

> artistic in 12-step fundamentalists. However, I am currently

going

> through a workbook called " The Artist's Way " by Cameron,

who is

> obviously a recovering alcoholic, but she has not lost any of her

> humor/creativity, in my opinion. I think that book has been

helpful

> in maintaining sanity, creativity, and a sense of self despite 12-

> step group attendance.

>

> Holly

[Guest guest]

>Yes, in general, I have observed the same lack of humor/hatred of the

artistic in 12-step fundamentalists. However, I am

currently going

through a workbook called " The Artist's Way " by

Cameron, who is

obviously a recovering alcoholic, but she has not lost

any of her

humor/creativity, in my opinion. I think that book has

been helpful

in maintaining sanity, creativity, and a sense of self

despite 12-

step group attendance.

Hassan said in an interview that prior to joining the

Moonies, he had written more than 400 poems. He destroyed them in

part of a ritual demanding that you " give up you Isaac, " i.e.,

sacrifice something dear to you. He said that after a while, you

" learn to stop thinking in those creative words. " And, consistent

with what someone else said, " being silly " is seen as flighty, not

grounded, not sober -- which in my 19th century dictionary means

" grave, serious. " --

[Guest guest]

Hi Adina,

The cult mentality is insidious, isn't it? I used to be really

creative and funny and artistic when I was a child. Haven't felt any

of that lately, especially since I started drinking and then going to

AA. Maybe I'm masochistic in a sense, because I still go to meetings

every once in a while just as a challenge to myself to see if I can

remain a detached observer and avert indoctrination into the 12-step

mindset. I still wonder how many thoughts are my own and how many

are just regurgitations of programese. I think the best compliment I

ever had in AA was from a rather unconventional old-timer...he said,

" It's amazing...you've been coming around [AA meetings] for over a

year, yet you still manage to make sense. "

I guess I took that as a compliment.

Holly

> holly

> i think there is some kind of relationship there. i

> used to love being silly, and i also liked to make up

> limmericks and stories, and draw pictures. going to a

> lot of meetings, though and getting sucked into the

> cult lifestyle put all of that on the back burner. i

> wasn't strong enough. i haven't even had a

> relationship in 3 years. since my breakup i have lost

> most of any outwardly apparent sexuality i had. yes i

> became a program-bitch-nightmare. if you know what i

> mean. even on this list as i type i am wondering if i

> am being too self centered by talking so much about

> myself.

______

>

[Guest guest]

Holly,

Your old-timer friend reminds me of my old-timer

friend. I have mentioned him here before. He is a

functionally illiterate Vietnam Veteran who is on

several medications, a self-proclaimed " fruitcake on

the loose from the VA (Veterans' Administration

Hospital) " . He proudly tells steppers at meetings, " I

have never read one page of the Big Book, I don't know

what is on page 449, and I never wrote any

inventories. My amends is donating blood to the Red

Cross. I have 15 years of sobriety, and I have a wife

and daughter at home. I know a lot of you people don't

care about me. Well, I don't care about you. "

He is my best friend, the only one who has

consistently without fail told me to be myself and

answer to myself. Holly I admit to you as I admitted

to my shrink earlier tonight, that my sponsor has

called this man " marginal " . Just the other day, she

told me that she dreampt " he was hit on the head with

a cement block and died. Then he turned into an elf,

and told you that you don't need him anymore. " Well I

told my sponsor that I felt warm and fuzzy inside,

because I am just so pathetically without any active

practice of self reliance or integrity, that I just

wanted to make sure she was happy with me. So if that

is the case I guess that explains why personal

satisfaction in my life remains an elusive dream .

That will earn me the least possible amount of dissent

from her. Of course, online, I just love that

attention. But there is hope for me. The truth will

set me free.

Or maybe just me not being such total a wuss.

--- holly.winchell@... wrote:

> Hi Adina,

>

> The cult mentality is insidious, isn't it? I used

> to be really

> creative and funny and artistic when I was a child.

> Haven't felt any

> of that lately, especially since I started drinking

> and then going to

> AA. Maybe I'm masochistic in a sense, because I

> still go to meetings

> every once in a while just as a challenge to myself

> to see if I can

> remain a detached observer and avert indoctrination

> into the 12-step

> mindset. I still wonder how many thoughts are my

> own and how many

> are just regurgitations of programese. I think the

> best compliment I

> ever had in AA was from a rather unconventional

> old-timer...he said,

> " It's amazing...you've been coming around [AA

> meetings] for over a

> year, yet you still manage to make sense. "

>

> I guess I took that as a compliment.

>

> Holly

>

>

> > holly

> > i think there is some kind of relationship there.

> i

> > used to love being silly, and i also liked to make

> up

> > limmericks and stories, and draw pictures. going

> to a

> > lot of meetings, though and getting sucked into

> the

> > cult lifestyle put all of that on the back burner.

> i

> > wasn't strong enough. i haven't even had a

> > relationship in 3 years. since my breakup i have

> lost

> > most of any outwardly apparent sexuality i had.

> yes i

> > became a program-bitch-nightmare. if you know what

> i

> > mean. even on this list as i type i am wondering

> if i

> > am being too self centered by talking so much

> about

> > myself.

> ______

> >